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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 8:14 pm

vc10 wrote:
Richard28 Thank you for a good response and in answer to a couple of your points


no problem :)


vc10 wrote:
What i am saying this is what happens on the EU' other land botders


heres what an external EU border looks like (this one on the Belarus/Poland Border):

https://goo.gl/maps/NtXQVn1hy6x

Unfortunately this is the kind of infrastructure that would be needed without a solution for Northern Ireland, where we must remember the Good Friday agreement long pre-dates Brexit by many years, has legal standing and is not something conjured up to cause trouble.

Its interesting to look at other parts of europe as well, such as Sweden/Norway border, where Norway is in the EEA but not the customs union, so still this infrastructure is needed:

https://goo.gl/maps/FeGCfVSCsGs

The Northern Ireland issue is not a simple one to sort.
 
vc10
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed May 30, 2018 10:41 pm

Thanks Richard 28 and yes the border looks daunting, but have you looked at the toll gate on the Severn Bridge crossing it is very similar. If containers are pre cleared it should be no more than a toll gate. There is always a solution if both sides are willing to look at them but it would seem to me that the EU is using the Irish border as an obstacle to hinder Brexit. I do not think any one who voted for Brexit wants to divorce them selves completely from Europe they just do not
want to be governed by Europe.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 5:52 am

vc10 wrote:
I do not think any one who voted for Brexit wants to divorce them selves completely from Europe they just do not
want to be governed by Europe.


That much is clear. But rules are there for a reason.

There's accommodating (which the UK had the whole time they've been in) and there's making up a whole new book just for the UK sake.

That is disruptive to the EU relations with everyone else.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 6:56 am

JJJ wrote:
Rules are there for a reason.

There's accommodating (which the UK had the whole time they've been in) and there's making up a whole new book just for the UK sake.

That is disruptive to the EU relations with everyone else.


Indeed, and yet this is something many in the UK don't seem to understand when they complain about "being punished by the EU" for their decision to leave.

See, it's fairly simply really:

1- The UK are leaving, so they simply have to bother about reshaping one single (albeit an economically extremely important) international relationship post Brexit: that with the EU itself.

2- The EU in contrast has many international relationships to keep an eye on, all potentially negatively affected by Brexit.
Not just the delicate balance within the 27 remaining members is at stake of being disturbed, there are also the hard fought free trade agreements between the EU and 60 something other signatories which would all have to be renegotiated if the UK is seen as getting something not offered to other 3rd party countries.

The EU simply does not want to redo all of that work for the sake of Brexit to go so much smoother for the UK itself, so the UK is rightfully being asked by the EU to take an unambiguous and clear position as to what it wants to offer and simply assume the corresponding place in the picking order between those 60 or so other 3rd party countries who've done this before them, while the UK is somehow genuinely expecting to be made a under-the-counter offer which is normally not available for others and thus get a more favourable treatment by the EU, being an ex-member.

There's no such thing as perpetual rights drawn from being an ex-member of a trading bloc, a political union or a colonial empire, yet it seems to be something very British to think they can have those type of special relationships with other countries based on some shared history, something which has always struck me as completely delusional since that shared history and common past with the Brits wasn't exactly such a happy one in most cases, was it?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 6:59 am

The Irish problem lies with Ireland and the EU. They can either demand a hard border or Ireland could decide to leave the EU and find an agreement with the UK, that would be most beneficial for both parties. And with both countries free of the shackles of the EU, they could negotiate in good faith, without continuing interference by the Germans, who use the EU as their way to finally achieve dominance in Europe after getting their asses kicked by the UK in 2 wars, for which they still seek revenge as can be seen by them forcing the EU to not find a good deal with the UK.

The EU will dissolve anyway, as more and more countries understand that it only serves German interests. Italy will soon follow the UK in the path to freedom.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 7:37 am

seahawk wrote:
The Irish problem lies with Ireland and the EU. They can either demand a hard border or Ireland could decide to leave the EU and find an agreement with the UK, that would be most beneficial for both parties.


Other than the small facts such as:

1) 88% of Irish wanting to be in the EU https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0509/873610-eu_poll/ so they aren't going to leave.

2) WTO rules which would apply on no deal, meaning both the EU and the UK will either (i) have to drop all tariffs on all imported goods worldwide, or (ii) put a hard border in place in Ireland (e.g. WTO most favoured nation rule) - its not an Irish/EU thing.

Those pesky facts!
 
mmo
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 7:38 am

seahawk wrote:
The Irish problem lies with Ireland and the EU. They can either demand a hard border or Ireland could decide to leave the EU and find an agreement with the UK, that would be most beneficial for both parties. And with both countries free of the shackles of the EU, they could negotiate in good faith, without continuing interference by the Germans, who use the EU as their way to finally achieve dominance in Europe after getting their asses kicked by the UK in 2 wars, for which they still seek revenge as can be seen by them forcing the EU to not find a good deal with the UK.

The EU will dissolve anyway, as more and more countries understand that it only serves German interests. Italy will soon follow the UK in the path to freedom.\


I love how your posts continue to demonstrate your lack of knowledge. The UK is a signatory to the Good Friday Agreement. How do you come up with a statement "The Irish problem lies with Ireland and the EU"? I suggest you might want to do a little research into just what the Good Friday Agreement is and what the guarantees are. Otherwise, you will continue to make a fool of yourself.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 7:55 am

vc10 wrote:
Thanks Richard 28 and yes the border looks daunting, but have you looked at the toll gate on the Severn Bridge crossing it is very similar. If containers are pre cleared it should be no more than a toll gate. There is always a solution if both sides are willing to look at them but it would seem to me that the EU is using the Irish border as an obstacle to hinder Brexit.


The Servern bridge is just straight through wave and pay toll, there are no customs handling facilities, Lorry X-Ray machines, or parking facilities, so this is quite different.

Queues for customs checks post Brexit would soon build, as shown in the BBC graphic for Dover/Eurotunnel customs:

Image

You also have to factor in that there are 275 roads that cross the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, so any hard border would likely require various customs points and quite probably many road closures, costing huge sums of money to build and maintain and cutting of communities and possibly returning the area to very dark times.

vc10 wrote:
I do not think any one who voted for Brexit wants to divorce them selves completely from Europe they just do not want to be governed by Europe.


Continued membership of the Single Market and the Customs Union would deal with these issues in a stroke. The problem for the hard-brexiters here is that they will not get their "own" trade deals. However as the EU has 65 such trade deals worldwide already and is adding more (New Zealand and Australia next year) I would suggest that argument is rather irrelevant.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 8:06 am

seahawk wrote:
The Irish problem lies with Ireland and the EU. They can either demand a hard border or Ireland could decide to leave the EU and find an agreement with the UK, that would be most beneficial for both parties. And with both countries free of the shackles of the EU, they could negotiate in good faith, without continuing interference by the Germans, who use the EU as their way to finally achieve dominance in Europe after getting their asses kicked by the UK in 2 wars, for which they still seek revenge as can be seen by them forcing the EU to not find a good deal with the UK.

The EU will dissolve anyway, as more and more countries understand that it only serves German interests. Italy will soon follow the UK in the path to freedom.


Great post. The truth is being spoken. The EU has had its day.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 8:54 am

Richard28 wrote:
Continued membership of the Single Market and the Customs Union would deal with these issues in a stroke. The problem for the hard-brexiters here is that they will not get their "own" trade deals. However as the EU has 65 such trade deals worldwide already and is adding more (New Zealand and Australia next year) I would suggest that argument is rather irrelevant.


The main problem is that nobody really new what 'leaving the EU' really comprised:
Was it just the political entity?
Was it also the SM?
And the CU?

During the campaign it never really got specified and depending the LEAVE speaker of the day, the SM was or was not left, while the CU wasn't even mentioned (probably because it was as good as unknown even?), so now a political interpretation is having to be made as to what needs to be understood, depending far more on party and personal interests than on country and people, sadly.

On the SM, from the onset it has been made clear by the EU that the 4 freedoms are indivisible, yet it was promised time and time again by numerous LEAVE campaigners that a vote for them would change this hard stance (clearly that was an overpromise, at the very least...), so although it is obvious from this overpromise that their conceptual idea was to stay well IN the SM, the people actually did vote OUT on this element too, albeit fooled to believe it wasn't going to be required to actually leave the SM too.
The issue of having the SM explicitly included in their promise is now haunting sensible politicians in Britain as it means they need to beg the EU for a long transitional deal (beyond the 2 year exit period) as well as seek continued participation in all the current FTAs the EU holds with other countries and blocs, because leaving the SM just like that would be like cutting off both your legs just when you want to participate in a marathon...

Even more amusing it is to see how apparently the UK Government thinks people also understood LEAVE as meaning leaving the CU too, while at the same time they assume it did not mean leaving (most of) the European Agencies?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agencies_ ... pean_Union
I really wonder on what basis a detailed conclusion can be drawn as to which of the lesser known components of the EU were ment to be included in a LEAVE vote, other than on a personal interests basis?

Indeed, leaving the CU allows the UK to negotiate it own FTAs and God knows certain fractions of the Conservative Party have great personal interest in seeing the UK soften up on certain consumer protection issues the EU is very strict on, so concluding a copy of the EU's FTAs minus whatever they find restrictive for their sort of trade in it is their ultimate goal as 'Britain goes globally' of course, hence it now needs to be able to do away with all those protections according to those politicians.

Leaving any of the European Agencies in contrast is not yielding a great personal interest nor political gain, it's just causing a huge headache for the UK by producing miles and miles of additional red tape at a huge cost, even though doing that would by far be living up to the promise of 'taking back control' far more than leaving the CU is for instance.

The EU on the other hand is not giving in on this cherry picking because the EU is not an ordinary take-away where you can select whatever you like from its menu and even have it all modified a bit further even to your own personal flavour: it only offers certain combo deals, all of them at a predetermined price, so it keeps asking Britain which of the combos it wants, or move aside for the next in line to come up to the counter until it has made its mind up with the help from the easy to understand combo menu displayed at the entrance and posted here numerous times already...
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 9:30 am

Meanwhile Mr Rees-Mogg is in the Daily Express (theres a clue) today saying how the Swiss border model is a solution that can work for Northern Ireland as it is a frictionless frontier.

Conveniently ignoring how there are custom check points at the Swiss/French border (so goodbye Good Friday agreement)

https://goo.gl/maps/SBmsv3XniUG2

The border is not totally frictionless

And also of course ignoring that Switzerland is in the Single Market therefore allows free movement of people and is also in the Schengen area.

Seriously, why do people listen to this man/newspaper, they have not got a clue of the realities.....
 
vc10
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 9:55 am

Richard28 You are correct about the Severn Bridge [ soon to be free] , but there is no need for lorry examination x-ray machines if the container is sealed when pre cleared at various custom sites around the UK and within the EU should they choose to do so.
The BBC stats and one can hardly say that the BBC is neutral on this subject so anything it produces is somewhat suspect, However this prediction all traffic will go through the tunnel [ or at least the majority] whereas if it really becomes a problem other means /ways of transporting goods will be found eg by train so eliminating about 30 or 40 lorries at a time

Now as to the Irish border , well every body keeps quoting the Irish peace accord , but this was good for it's time , but does not mean it can never be altered
just look at how the EU has changed since 1973 when the UK joined the Common Market, so yes things do change

Now as far as the border is concerned well I give you an example of the Polish /Russian border so see the following site

https://www.economist.com/eastern-appro ... er-traffic

Now this solution might not fit the Irish problem 100% but demonstrates the EU can accommodate a country's need if it wishes to , but with Brexit it choose not to try.
Also the Swiss have a border with a number of EU countries and has so I believe 33 official crossing points with those various countries, but there is no hard barb wire fencing [ like the film Great Escape] along the rest of the border and people can can walk /cycle and perhaps drive their tractors across the border

So I am just trying to point out that these are difficulties , which with good will on both sides can be overcome.Now the EU says it does not want the UK to Cherry pick and if that is it's position then so be it , but have no doubt this hard nose attitude will hurt both sides, which is not ideal . However if we are all playing hard ball tactics then yes the UK can be excluded from European markets or at least taxed out of them but also there would be no reason for the the UK to pay in the Billions of pounds to the EU

If it came to this it would be a sad day but if that is what the EU wants or at least the politicians in Brussels say it is what the countries want then let us get on and find new markets and trade around the world
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 10:07 am

mmo wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The Irish problem lies with Ireland and the EU. They can either demand a hard border or Ireland could decide to leave the EU and find an agreement with the UK, that would be most beneficial for both parties. And with both countries free of the shackles of the EU, they could negotiate in good faith, without continuing interference by the Germans, who use the EU as their way to finally achieve dominance in Europe after getting their asses kicked by the UK in 2 wars, for which they still seek revenge as can be seen by them forcing the EU to not find a good deal with the UK.

The EU will dissolve anyway, as more and more countries understand that it only serves German interests. Italy will soon follow the UK in the path to freedom.\


I love how your posts continue to demonstrate your lack of knowledge. The UK is a signatory to the Good Friday Agreement. How do you come up with a statement "The Irish problem lies with Ireland and the EU"? I suggest you might want to do a little research into just what the Good Friday Agreement is and what the guarantees are. Otherwise, you will continue to make a fool of yourself.


The UK is not insisting on border controls, the EU is. The UK would be fine to have an open border there. The UK just wants to get full sovereignty back and control the laws and rules of the land.

So if the EU insists on a border and the Irish want to stay in the EU, they are to blame for the problems.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 10:10 am

You just forget that Swiss is surrounded by Eu countries and that Swiss has agreed to FoM.
Last edited by Olddog on Thu May 31, 2018 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
mmo
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 10:25 am

seahawk wrote:
mmo wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The Irish problem lies with Ireland and the EU. They can either demand a hard border or Ireland could decide to leave the EU and find an agreement with the UK, that would be most beneficial for both parties. And with both countries free of the shackles of the EU, they could negotiate in good faith, without continuing interference by the Germans, who use the EU as their way to finally achieve dominance in Europe after getting their asses kicked by the UK in 2 wars, for which they still seek revenge as can be seen by them forcing the EU to not find a good deal with the UK.

The EU will dissolve anyway, as more and more countries understand that it only serves German interests. Italy will soon follow the UK in the path to freedom.\


I love how your posts continue to demonstrate your lack of knowledge. The UK is a signatory to the Good Friday Agreement. How do you come up with a statement "The Irish problem lies with Ireland and the EU"? I suggest you might want to do a little research into just what the Good Friday Agreement is and what the guarantees are. Otherwise, you will continue to make a fool of yourself.


The UK is not insisting on border controls, the EU is. The UK would be fine to have an open border there. The UK just wants to get full sovereignty back and control the laws and rules of the land.

So if the EU insists on a border and the Irish want to stay in the EU, they are to blame for the problems.


Again, you continue to impress me with your lack of knowledge. The EU is insisting, rightly so, the Good Friday Agreement stay in place. The GFA requires no hard border between the ROI and NI. Since, the UK will leave the EU and the CTA still stays in effect, those two facts are counter to each other. What about doing away with the CTA!!! I am sure your leaders would jump on that bandwagon.

Again, you fail to realize the EU is negotiating for their member states, Ireland is not negotiating for Ireland.

Please show me where the UK gave up it's sovereignty. The UK never did that and again, that is one of the many Brexiteer's many half truths which are propogated on a daily basis. It's amazing how half truths can be so persuasive.
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 10:42 am

If Ireland is allowing the EU to negotiate on their behalf, it is their choice and their fault, if a border happens.

Apart from that it should be obvious to everybody that fully honouring the GFA and fully leaving the EU and all its institutions and courts is impossible, as the European Convention on Human Rights is a basic part of the agreement, which grants every citizen of NI access to the European Court of Human Rights, so at least for citizens of NI the UK would still have to accept the ruling of that court. So the GFA will have to be changed to cater for British needs.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 11:14 am

seahawk wrote:
It should be obvious to everybody that fully honouring the GFA and fully leaving the EU and all its institutions and courts is impossible, as the European Convention on Human Rights is a basic part of the agreement, which grants every citizen of NI access to the European Court of Human Rights, so at least for citizens of NI the UK would still have to accept the ruling of that court. So the GFA will have to be changed to cater for British needs.


Aren't citizens of NI automatically also holding Irish nationality on top/next to their British passport?
If so, then the EU should thus have to exclude certain EU citizens (i.e. Irish living in NI) from going to the ECJ in Luxemburg, post Brexit?
See how ridiculously accomodative the EU is asked to be for this type of Brexit to somehow work: it should either have to start discriminating against some of its own citizens, or even have Ireland revoke their nationality all together for it no longer to be possible for the people in NI to go up to the ECJ!

BTW - The ECHR is a court based in Stasbourg, France and has nothing to do with the EU!
I suppose the confusion comes from the fact Stasbourg also hosts the EU Parliament, but the ECHR it's NOT a EU court: you're confusing it with the ECJ in Luxemburg!
Britain will remain bound by the European Convention on Human Rights and thus the rulings in front of its Court well after Brexit and has no intention of renouncing this multinational treaty as it has nothing to do with he EU, just as it won't step out of the UEFA either for instance, upon Brexit: not everything with "European" in its name is automatically linked to the EU, of course.

Lack of detailed understanding combined with inaccuarate knowledge indeed... some people seriously seem to be confused about what exactly Britain is leaving?
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 12:11 pm

seahawk wrote:
The UK is not insisting on border controls, the EU is. The UK would be fine to have an open border there.


No, as mentioned in my earlier post, in the event of a no deal scenario it would be the WTO who insist on border controls - not the EU or the UK

If the UK chose not to have a border on its side, then it would break WTO rules, and would in effect then have to introduce zero tariffs and quota's on produce from anywhere worldwide - killing off much of UK farming and manufacturing in the process.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 12:25 pm

mmo wrote:
Please show me where the UK gave up it's sovereignty. The UK never did that and again, that is one of the many Brexiteer's many half truths which are propogated on a daily basis. It's amazing how half truths can be so persuasive.


indeed it is.

In one breath Seahawk says it is Germany controlling Europe (so presumably they do have sovereignty) and in the next we have not got ours (despite being in the same union subject to the same rules).

It's like the age old question to name a European law that Brexiters want us to give up after Brexit... most people struggle to name even one EU law let alone a bad one that they want rid of.

And yet, the Rees-Mogg's of this land want us to default to WTO rules, leave the Single Market, introduce new Customs checks, lose 65+ trade deals worldwide and introduce borders in Northern Ireland (threatening peace in that area) at a WEEKLY cost of £1.25 billion (governments own figures).

For anyone looking at this in any rational way it just doesn't make sense, and never has.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 12:39 pm

And the whole thing was never about facts. Or to be more precise the UK has never seen itself as a part of the EU. It was always what do we give and what do we get and why do we have to give so much and generally we want to give less, but have a bigger say. Add a tendency to seek advantage first and foremost. The Eastern European extension was the classic example, France, Germany, Austria (etc.) wanted strong limitations on the freedom of movement for people from that countries. The UK was against it at the time, because the government believed that the people would go to Germany mostly and not to the UK. The UK decided to not use the agreed upon transition rules. But 10 years after the EU extension and 5 years after the end of the transition period, they suddenly wanted an special deal granting the UK exceptions from the freedom of movement principle. So in the end the Polish plumber was not a fault of the EU.

And the Brexit and the following negotiations are more of the same. There is no honesty towards the British public and the demands towards the EU only consider the British interests, if rejected the EU is blamed. And when politicians risk leaving the EU for personal gains in party politics, the EU might be better off without the UK.

So the best course of action now is

a) blame the EU
b) make up conspiracy theories about other countries wanting to hurt the EU
c) promise a bright future and the return of the UK as a global trading power
d) ignore any legal problems, if not possible see point a
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 1:26 pm

Richard28 wrote:
For anyone looking at this in any rational way it just doesn't make sense, and never has.


I can't help thinking you're missing the bigger picture - we're getting blue passports back and a brexit coin. :wink2:
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JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 1:42 pm

vc10 wrote:
Richard28 You are correct about the Severn Bridge [ soon to be free] , but there is no need for lorry examination x-ray machines if the container is sealed when pre cleared at various custom sites around the UK and within the EU should they choose to do so.


X-Raying a container costs under a minute, and it's exactly the thing you do to a sealed container. The 2-3 minute stop being talked about is documents only, which is as frictionless as it gets.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 1:42 pm

Great news, so happy to hear this :

https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/6416836/ ... es-the-eu/

Britain will be leaving the European Union and it will be a success.

#britaingreaterthanever
 
mmo
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 2:02 pm

seahawk wrote:
So the GFA will have to be changed to cater for British needs.


What planet are you on???

You state your position on the negotiations and then claim the ROI should negotiate themselves. So, in your world, do you thing the UK is going to have trade agreement with the EU or each individual country? Would love to hear the answer on this one!!!
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 2:13 pm

JJJ wrote:
X-Raying a container costs under a minute, and it's exactly the thing you do to a sealed container. The 2-3 minute stop being talked about is documents only, which is as frictionless as it gets.


but not frictionless....

.... also requiring additional infrastructure and staffing. Therefore not a solution for the GFA.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 2:16 pm

scbriml wrote:
I can't help thinking you're missing the bigger picture - we're getting blue passports back and a brexit coin. :wink2:


oops, there's me looking at the economy, laws and facts and ignoring WW2, Blue Passports and Coins!

Incidentally, I suspect any new Brexit pound coin will actually be an 80p coin, to reflect its post Brexit worth ;-) !
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 3:17 pm

vc10 wrote:
Richard28 You are correct about the Severn Bridge [ soon to be free] , but there is no need for lorry examination x-ray machines if the container is sealed when pre cleared at various custom sites around the UK and within the EU should they choose to do so.


You are simply moving the border check point from the physical border to somewhere else, and with this comes with additional costs and risks - additional technology would be required. So it simply moves the problem elsewhere but does not get rid of it.

The EU have also said they are unhappy with this arrangement. It would also open the door to illegal UK immigration as incoming trucks would not be checked in the UK with your suggestion.

vc10 wrote:
The BBC stats and one can hardly say that the BBC is neutral on this subject so anything it produces is somewhat suspect,


The source of the data was Imperial College London, not the BBC (who the remain side could also argue have not been impartial)

vc10 wrote:
However this prediction all traffic will go through the tunnel [ or at least the majority] whereas if it really becomes a problem other means /ways of transporting goods will be found eg by train so eliminating about 30 or 40 lorries at a time


Trains will still need to be checked, again you're just moving the problem, not solving it.

vc10 wrote:
Now as to the Irish border , well every body keeps quoting the Irish peace accord , but this was good for it's time , but does not mean it can never be altered
just look at how the EU has changed since 1973 when the UK joined the Common Market, so yes things do change


This is where us remainers bang our heads - the leave politicians have had two years on this and still have not come up with a single workable solution, other than advocating "good will", hope and blaming the other side - but still nothing.

vc10 wrote:
Now as far as the border is concerned well I give you an example of the Polish /Russian border so see the following site

https://www.economist.com/eastern-appro ... er-traffic


Now this solution might not fit the Irish problem 100% but demonstrates the EU can accommodate a country's need if it wishes to , but with Brexit it choose not to try.


the economist link is behind a paywall so I cannot read it. I suspect this relates to Kaliningrad Oblast, which is a small russian enclave bordered by Poland and Lithuania (i.e. 100% EU borders). As such it has been granted special exemptions for local traffic.

But it still has border check points: https://goo.gl/maps/hG9TeP1ubk32

so not a GFA solution.

vc10 wrote:
Also the Swiss have a border with a number of EU countries and has so I believe 33 official crossing points with those various countries, but there is no hard barb wire fencing [ like the film Great Escape] along the rest of the border and people can can walk /cycle and perhaps drive their tractors across the border


Switzerland is in the Single Market and Schengen area - so if you advocate the Swiss model then you must also accept free movement of people.


vc10 wrote:
So I am just trying to point out that these are difficulties , which with good will on both sides can be overcome.

More than good will is needed. The GFA is a legal agreement that has been subject to previous referendums and is written under law.

The EU are rightly concerned that to move forward the legal text must be certain to avoid UK backtracking in the future.

vc10 wrote:
Now the EU says it does not want the UK to Cherry pick and if that is it's position then so be it , but have no doubt this hard nose attitude will hurt both sides, which is not ideal . However if we are all playing hard ball tactics then yes the UK can be excluded from European markets or at least taxed out of them but also there would be no reason for the the UK to pay in the Billions of pounds to the EU[/quote[

The divorce payment is not contingent on any trade deal, so must be paid regardless on Brexit.

The EU have been very clear on UK's options on opening a trade deal with the EU.

The UK on the other hand is stuck in muddied waters of what people actually voted for (EU? EFTA? EEA? CU? EMA? EURATOM? etc etc) it needs to be clear on what it wants and let the people then have a say if this is acceptable or not.

vc10 wrote:
If it came to this it would be a sad day but if that is what the EU wants or at least the politicians in Brussels say it is what the countries want then let us get on and find new markets and trade around the world


and what new markets will those be? Mmost of the major ones are already in place through the EU - and what would the consequences to the UK job market of such new markets (think USA and the NHS / China and Steel)
 
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seahawk
Posts: 10181
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 4:24 pm

mmo wrote:
seahawk wrote:
So the GFA will have to be changed to cater for British needs.


What planet are you on???

You state your position on the negotiations and then claim the ROI should negotiate themselves. So, in your world, do you thing the UK is going to have trade agreement with the EU or each individual country? Would love to hear the answer on this one!!!


As I understand it, this depends on the Eu accepting the generous British offer or not.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2323
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 5:22 pm

Brexit may be a great success but the UK is still struggling to control the narrative internationally. The Sun thinks the New York Times (and Donald Trump) are trashing the UK too much.

"We’ve become used to the American Right embellishing the extent to which Britain is a haven of terrorism and socialist decay.

What’s new is that the American Left now also seems determined to paint Britain as a failed state."

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6416560/s ... reat-boom/

Yes, NYT is uber liberal. Problem for Brexiteers is that it's far more influential with foreign diplomats/bureaucrats/people Brexit Britain needs on its side, than The Sun, Breitbart, Express etc. Perception matters - it often influences reality.

As for Ireland and borders, unless the number of land crossings is limited to a handful of roads that can be easily monitored, I don't think the pre-clearance idea is going to work.

But as sevenair...err...Arion640 will no doubt point out, that's all small potatoes in the context of blue passports and Brexit commemorative coins.
 
LJ
Posts: 5463
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 6:32 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Great news, so happy to hear this :

https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/6416836/ ... es-the-eu/

Britain will be leaving the European Union and it will be a success.

#britaingreaterthanever


You did read that manufacturing confidence fell by 7 points to 33? Who do you think will see the impact of Brexit first? Retail or manufacturing?
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2751
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 7:22 pm

News in that arch Brexiter Nigel Lawson has applied for French residency.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... vote-leave

Ask yourself Brexit voters, why is someone who has helped convince you to vote against your rights to live and retire in the EU decided to do just that 10 months before Brexit?

Are you feeling like you’ve been mugged off? You should...

#couldnotmakethisstuffup
 
sevenair
Posts: 3007
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 7:33 pm

scbriml wrote:
Richard28 wrote:
For anyone looking at this in any rational way it just doesn't make sense, and never has.


I can't help thinking you're missing the bigger picture - we're getting blue passports back and a brexit coin. :wink2:


Yawn. Is that the blue passports that literally nobody voted for and nobody mentioned on here until recent month.
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2751
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 8:06 pm

And more news in, Trump has just imposed steel and aluminium tariffs on the EU (so also UK), Canada and others.

So trade wars are on, and trump has shown that he has a hostile non cooperative stance when it comes to trade.

Any Brexiter pinning UK trade hopes post Brexit on the USA should have a serious re-think.

In situations like this you need something like the EU behind you - You don’t want to be isolated and exposed.

#exitbrexit
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2323
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 9:20 pm

sevenair wrote:

Yawn. Is that the blue passports that literally nobody voted for and nobody mentioned on here until recent month.


What about commemorative coins? Evidently one of you is thrilled about it:

Arion640 wrote:
Fantastic article, I really do hope this can be implemented. Britain is great at the end of the day.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... xit-coins/
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2323
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 9:26 pm

Richard28 wrote:
And more news in, Trump has just imposed steel and aluminium tariffs on the EU (so also UK), Canada and others.

So trade wars are on, and trump has shown that he has a hostile non cooperative stance when it comes to trade.

Any Brexiter pinning UK trade hopes post Brexit on the USA should have a serious re-think.

In situations like this you need something like the EU behind you - You don’t want to be isolated and exposed.

#exitbrexit


Tata Steel employs 4000 people at Port Talbot, Wales. 10% of its exports go to the US.

I'm sure they'll get a better deal after Brexit. Canada, with all its NAFTA and additional exemptions, is also facing tariffs. The UK-US "special" relationship is nothing compared to CAN-US relations, so good luck with that shiny new trade deal.

I'm sure it will replace the benefits of the single market. Not.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19713
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu May 31, 2018 10:05 pm

sevenair wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Richard28 wrote:
For anyone looking at this in any rational way it just doesn't make sense, and never has.


I can't help thinking you're missing the bigger picture - we're getting blue passports back and a brexit coin. :wink2:


Yawn. Is that the blue passports that literally nobody voted for and nobody mentioned on here until recent month.


Yawn. How many times does it have to be explained to you?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3257
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:49 am

Richard28 wrote:
News in that arch Brexiter Nigel Lawson has applied for French residency.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... vote-leave

Ask yourself Brexit voters, why is someone who has helped convince you to vote against your rights to live and retire in the EU decided to do just that 10 months before Brexit?

Are you feeling like you’ve been mugged off? You should...

#couldnotmakethisstuffup


So because 1 person has applied for French citizenship we must reverse brexit. Good for him, hope he has a pleasant time.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3257
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:52 am

ElPistolero wrote:
Richard28 wrote:
And more news in, Trump has just imposed steel and aluminium tariffs on the EU (so also UK), Canada and others.

So trade wars are on, and trump has shown that he has a hostile non cooperative stance when it comes to trade.

Any Brexiter pinning UK trade hopes post Brexit on the USA should have a serious re-think.

In situations like this you need something like the EU behind you - You don’t want to be isolated and exposed.

#exitbrexit


Tata Steel employs 4000 people at Port Talbot, Wales. 10% of its exports go to the US.

I'm sure they'll get a better deal after Brexit. Canada, with all its NAFTA and additional exemptions, is also facing tariffs. The UK-US "special" relationship is nothing compared to CAN-US relations, so good luck with that shiny new trade deal.

I'm sure it will replace the benefits of the single market. Not.


Was that the same single market of the European Union that stopped the Welsh government bailing out Port Talbot because of subsidy rules?
 
JJJ
Posts: 3976
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:08 am

Arion640 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Richard28 wrote:
And more news in, Trump has just imposed steel and aluminium tariffs on the EU (so also UK), Canada and others.

So trade wars are on, and trump has shown that he has a hostile non cooperative stance when it comes to trade.

Any Brexiter pinning UK trade hopes post Brexit on the USA should have a serious re-think.

In situations like this you need something like the EU behind you - You don’t want to be isolated and exposed.

#exitbrexit


Tata Steel employs 4000 people at Port Talbot, Wales. 10% of its exports go to the US.

I'm sure they'll get a better deal after Brexit. Canada, with all its NAFTA and additional exemptions, is also facing tariffs. The UK-US "special" relationship is nothing compared to CAN-US relations, so good luck with that shiny new trade deal.

I'm sure it will replace the benefits of the single market. Not.


Was that the same single market of the European Union that stopped the Welsh government bailing out Port Talbot because of subsidy rules?


Even the WTO has limits on state aid, any bilateral trade deal the UK signs post Brexit will have limits on state aid as well (the US is known to be pretty sensitive to that).

Nevermind that the Welsh government is on record saying they didn't take a stake because it was too expensive, and listed several examples of temporary nationalisation in other EU countries they could have followed but they chose not to.

'We can't bail out Tata in Port Talbot - it's too expensive': First Minister rejects calls for Welsh Government stake
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wale ... a-10747152

But yeah, it's all the EU fault.
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2751
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:12 am

Arion640 wrote:
Richard28 wrote:
News in that arch Brexiter Nigel Lawson has applied for French residency.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... vote-leave

Ask yourself Brexit voters, why is someone who has helped convince you to vote against your rights to live and retire in the EU decided to do just that 10 months before Brexit?

Are you feeling like you’ve been mugged off? You should...

#couldnotmakethisstuffup


So because 1 person has applied for French citizenship we must reverse brexit. Good for him, hope he has a pleasant time.


For many sound economic reasons Brexit should be reversed, this is just some hilarious cream on the remain cake.

Do you think Nigel Lawson has been lying about Brexit to you, and if so to you feel deceived? Or is he simply a hypocrite?
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2751
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:24 am

Arion640 wrote:

Was that the same single market of the European Union that stopped the Welsh government bailing out Port Talbot because of subsidy rules?


As JJJ points out, the single market is designed to give a level playing field so does not look kindly on state subsidy.

If you allowed state subsidies you would have all kinds of companies propped up by governments for nationalistic reasons.

Thw SM helps the EU markets to be efficient.

It’s not perfect and there are still some EU level subsidies (eg farming) but it helps businesss to compete on a level playing field.

This government could have resorted to nationalisation but chose not to.

Outside the EU we will be forced cap in hand to accept any USA threats (privatised NHS anyone?) to help protect business from USA tariffs.

In the EU we are much much stronger.

It is times like this where Brexit turns from a folly to a farce.
 
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FabDiva
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:42 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:15 am

Arion640 wrote:

Was that the same single market of the European Union that stopped the Welsh government bailing out Port Talbot because of subsidy rules?


There were proposals to counter the Chinese steel dumping at an EU level which might have helped. The UK vetoed them (Probably because at the time the UK was desperate for the Chinese to bail out the new Hinkley Point power station)
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2751
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:12 am

FabDiva wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Was that the same single market of the European Union that stopped the Welsh government bailing out Port Talbot because of subsidy rules?


There were proposals to counter the Chinese steel dumping at an EU level which might have helped. The UK vetoed them (Probably because at the time the UK was desperate for the Chinese to bail out the new Hinkley Point power station)


Thanks FabDiva, I forgot about that aspect.

Further reading here:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 62446.html

It looks like the UK in the EU is sovereign after all, hey Brexiters?
 
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seahawk
Posts: 10181
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:21 am

That is a point for the Brexit. The Uk would have achieved a deal with the US already.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2323
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:23 am

Arion640 wrote:

Was that the same single market of the European Union that stopped the Welsh government bailing out Port Talbot because of subsidy rules?


Don't know - will have to look into it.

Either way, from the very pro-Brexit Telegraph:

" Experts fear the move could put the UK’s steel sector, which has only just started to recover from a ­protracted slump, at risk, threatening as many as 31,000 jobs in some of the UK’s most deprived areas. Five of the UK’s “big six” steel makers export to the US: Tata, British Steel, Liberty, Sheffield Forgemasters and Outokumpu."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... m-tariffs/

Canada has reciprocated with $13billion worth of trade tariffs, which should give you an idea of how much leeway the US gave Canada in the first place (which is to say: none).

Canada has an FTA with the US and is even exempted from "Buy American" policies through the Defence Procurement Sharing Agreement (noteworthy given that this is being peddled as a security issue). It's still being targeted.

Yeah, I'm sure post-Brexit Britain will get a better deal than Canada. Because, like, Britain is great and stuff.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2323
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:31 am

Arion640 wrote:

So because 1 person has applied for French citizenship we must reverse brexit. Good for him, hope he has a pleasant time.


Don't know about reversing, but the fact that he doesn't seem to want to stay in/move to the UK after Brexit suggests that he doesn't view it as the best place to be despite his professed patriotism. Well, not good enough for him, anyway.

Something about deserting sinking ships comes to mind.
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2751
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:32 am

ElPistolero wrote:
Yeah, I'm sure post-Brexit Britain will get a better deal than Canada. Because, like, Britain is great and stuff.


Like Northern Ireland, US trade deals need to be filed under "hope", "good will" and "I'm sure it will all work out" categories...

Actually most of Brexit is filed under these headings - it ain't looking great.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19713
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:01 pm

seahawk wrote:
That is a point for the Brexit. The Uk would have achieved a deal with the US already.


Who's going to want to do any deal with Trump? So far all he's done is throw away deals that America had already signed up to. That makes him about as trustworthy as a snake-oil salesman (which is kind of apt).
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10181
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:16 pm

scbriml wrote:
seahawk wrote:
That is a point for the Brexit. The Uk would have achieved a deal with the US already.


Who's going to want to do any deal with Trump? So far all he's done is throw away deals that America had already signed up to. That makes him about as trustworthy as a snake-oil salesman (which is kind of apt).


I think he and Boris would make a fantastic deal, the best deal every made.
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2751
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:37 pm

seahawk wrote:
I think he and Boris would make a fantastic deal, the best deal every made.


Well for a start its Liam Fox not Boris who will attempt trade deals.

And this is Liam who has pleaded with the US not to impose these tariffs and failed, yet now we believe he will get a generous trade deal?

So much at stake yet we still journey down this perilous road...

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