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Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:48 pm

Interesting article:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... SApp_Other

I invite all the regular contributors on this thread to comment.

“UK-made parts for planes will no longer be legally valid” Am I reading this right? Well that practically grounds every Airbus in every European airline. If i’ve interpreted that wrong please let me know...

Also, looks like half of the staff at KLM Cityhopper will be laid off on March 31st 2019 if UK aircraft aren’t allowed into EU airspace and vis versa.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:11 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Interesting article:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... SApp_Other

I invite all the regular contributors on this thread to comment.

“UK-made parts for planes will no longer be legally valid” Am I reading this right? Well that practically grounds every Airbus in every European airline. If i’ve interpreted that wrong please let me know...


No because those parts already on a certified plane are already certified. Anything that's made or repaired after Brexit not so.

Take it from prominent leaver (though one who has a stake in that sector) Richard North.

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86903

His son Peter North has a lot of pieces on aviation on his twitter account too, if you can dig them from the regular and hominem and name calling.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:56 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Interesting article:

No, not interesting article. It just adds to the pile of hundreds or thousands of similar articles over the last two years minus one week which prove that the UK has lost any meaningful leadership.

It even seems like the author cares about potential EU27 problems after Brexit. As if EU27 would be unable to rectify any such issues without UK assistance.

The UK needs to decide for herself which overall relationship she wants with the EU. She knows the options. Then the detailed small print about aviation relations and thousands of other such relations can be discussed afterwards.

The UK is racing against the cliff while everybody is screaming "turn left" or "turn right", while nobody dares to touch the steering wheel. Probably because the first one to touch the steering wheel will be crucified by half of the population. For two years nothing has happened except endless mudslinging in the UK. As a riot in a kindergarten. While at the same time laughing muscles on the continent have been worn to pieces.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
salttee
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:31 am

Why don't the Britts just have a new referendum? Or at least have a referendum about whether to have a new referendum. This national suicide course they are on needs to be reversed it seems to me.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:22 am

Arion640 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
I find always funny when an UK citizen says that he is against a closer integration when you consider England and its 3 tied colonies :)


All one united country my friend, Great Britain.


Not really, let me introduce you the only remaining colonial territory in the EU (shame on the UK and UN):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar

seahawk wrote:
Eurostats and objective when it comes to matters of the EU, please.


Funny how people ask for sources, and when they contradict their rhetoric are claimed as false/biased. Nice way of ignoring reality and always be happy in Wonderland.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am

salttee wrote:
Why don't the Britts just have a new referendum?


First they need to attend a training course in democracy by the Greeks - or maybe the Swiss. The Britts don't know that for having an either-or-referendum you need two defined alternatives to vote on. Voting between one defined alternative and anarchy works only in dictatorhips, and then best when votes count can be "adjusted" as needed. The UK is not a corrupt country, therefore they need to be more advanced than that.

Too bad that the Britts must learn such a basic democratic rule in such a hard way.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:44 am

Jayafe wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
I find always funny when an UK citizen says that he is against a closer integration when you consider England and its 3 tied colonies :)


All one united country my friend, Great Britain.


Not really, let me introduce you the only remaining colonial territory in the EU (shame on the UK and UN):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar

seahawk wrote:
Eurostats and objective when it comes to matters of the EU, please.


Funny how people ask for sources, and when they contradict their rhetoric are claimed as false/biased. Nice way of ignoring reality and always be happy in Wonderland.


Really not sure what Gibraltar has to do with this...but if you insist.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibralt ... ndum,_2002

Let me introduce you to this wikipedia page. Democracy in action, one of the main principals of Great Britain.

We recently gave another one of our overseas territories, the falkland Islands, a sovereignty referendum in 2013. We're quite good at giving out independence considering the british empire no longer exists.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:13 am

Arion640 wrote:
Interesting article:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... SApp_Other

I invite all the regular contributors on this thread to comment.

“UK-made parts for planes will no longer be legally valid” Am I reading this right? Well that practically grounds every Airbus in every European airline. If i’ve interpreted that wrong please let me know...

Also, looks like half of the staff at KLM Cityhopper will be laid off on March 31st 2019 if UK aircraft aren’t allowed into EU airspace and vis versa.


Its potentially a pretty horrid state of affairs to come, but as mentioned above, this is for new parts not the existing airbus fleet.

- border checks - without a customs union, there will likely be delays getting stuff into and out of the UK
- "just in time" supply chains for businesses will be put under stress, requiring stockpiling or slow downs in production
- legal, certification and paperwork issues - as referenced by your article, without the necessary legal authorities in place there could be problems.

Rolls Royce on the engine side are looking to get around this by moving certification of their engines to Germany, so Rolls Royce engines could legally be German after Brexit. https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-brita ... KKBN1HU2D9

Similar thing in the motor industry, with manufacturers seeking to get cars certified, previously this would have been done in the UK, but now British car manufacturers are doing this elsewhere - e.g. Aston Martin in Spain, as it is unclear that the UK's Vehicle Certification Agency will have any legal standing in the EU post Brexit. https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-autos ... KKCN1GJ1Z8

A lot of people say that "a deal will be done" and "it will all end up ok", "flights will not be affected" etc... and this is possible, but it will require a substantial amount of work in the background to have a smooth transition - and at the moment, this just is not happening.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:16 am

Richard28 wrote:
A lot of people say that "a deal will be done" and "it will all end up ok", "flights will not be affected" etc... and this is possible, but it will require a substantial amount of work in the background to have a smooth transition - and at the moment, this just is not happening.


The referendum was called by an overconfident PM without any contingency planning whatsoever, thus betting the entire British estate on a win, yet the current PM decided to honour the referendum result asap, despite not having made that long overdue continency plan first either, betting the EU would just give in to all demands! The first was naive hybris, the second simply unforgivable stupidity.

Don't get me wrong: a popular vote is quite a mandate, regardless whether it was a binding referendum or not, so unless there's another referendum in future, the UK should indeed aim to leave the EU like the referendum said (however: all the rest like leaving the SM, CU, EASA, Euratom, Europol, etc is something politicians added to that later and they have no clear public mandate for that...), but it doesn't mean the government should have initiated the very complex process of leaving the EU almost immediately and completely unprepared like it opted to do!

In hindsight it is crystal clear TM felt omnipotent and thought the UK was firmly in the driver's seat in the months right after the referendum, so she couldn't wait for pictures of her signing up for article 50 to be on the front pages of the British newspapers, betting those would instantly turn her into some sort of a British heroine fighting the French, the Germans and the rest on the continent in taking back those mythical lost freedoms which would win her a landslide election soon after… .

Reality is she signed away whatever the UK held as diplomatic leverage that very day and on top of that massive strategic error, she also lost the elections soon after because she didn't have a very attractive election manifesto (i.e. social and economical plan for the future) either…

So now she has to shop around Westminster, constantly appeasing both sides of her fractious party at the same time (hence the constant fudges she comes up with), while begging the EU to be kind on her and her tormented country by giving it ever more time to come up with clear answers to the many practical questions on the end arrangement the EU keeps on putting forward with increasing pleasure: PM May had UNLIMITED time right up to the moment she triggered article 50 which she knew started a 2 year countdown, yet since then all she has basically done is asked for more time??? Why on earth did she set off the timer in the first place, then???

In the end the conclusion is that Britain is leaving the EU, not the other way round, so the EU is never going to bend over, let alone change its very strict rules to accommodate a soon-to-be former member in the same way it has always done in order to accommodate Britain as a reluctant member, something which the Britts have become so used to that they thought it was a right for them almost, not just a diplomatic courtesy. As long as the UK doesn't understand reality and decides where it wants to put itself in the picking order on the outside of the EU, nothing meaningful is every going to come out of it.

My advice to British politicians in Westminster would be to let this simple concept of the new reality sink in and possibly pause Brexit while trying to draw up a realistic plan acceptable to both a majority of Britts as well as the 27 others states remaining in the EU too, whereas to British voters my advise would be to never again vote for people who like to place a bet with your wellbeing, like both the previous as well as the current PM have done!

Britain is just a medium sized country on the egde of the European Union: it is not indispensable to the rest of the EU for the simple reason it was always half out anyway (no eurozone, no schengen, no europol, at least not until last year when it suddenly joined, well after brexit even (!), …) and so evidently Britain is not so important that the EU will magically give in to that much sought after illusive yet creative and imaginative solution the British government will come up with once they manage to agree on it first. Politicians saying otherwise are not "far more capable than the spineless people in charge now", they are simply "disillusioned bigmouths" not even remotely knowing what they talk about when it comes to Europe and hoping their voters are not noticing it.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:22 am

Arion640 wrote:
[
Really not sure what Gibraltar has to do with this...but if you insist.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibralt ... ndum,_2002

Let me introduce you to this wikipedia page. Democracy in action, one of the main principals of Great Britain.

We recently gave another one of our overseas territories, the falkland Islands, a sovereignty referendum in 2013. We're quite good at giving out independence considering the british empire no longer exists.


Let me describe it as BS in action. You have a serious deficit in your definition of what democracy is and means. You can not give rights to people who are occupying a territory and pretend its legit just because you came up with it. They don't have right to decide about countries sovereignty, sorry, even if you state they do. The UK has been always quite good rewriting history, since the Blas de Lezo's times. Shame that the stubborn attitude of the UK regarding the colonial status of Gibraltar (recognized by the UN, and recognized a solution between both countries needs to be brought up, nothing to do with the people living there, that's why it's called a representative democracy) makes you think you have a word about a foreign territories. The colonial status of the rock implies that the solution of "let a few squatters living in a tax heaven" decide about signed treaties is pure BS. That's a random decision with the intention of getting favorable PR and blame and undermine the other part for merely nationalistic and snob reasons.

Exactly the same than Islas Malvinas, an Argentinian territory that, after being invaded and occupied, the UK has decided that they can say who has sovereignty over it. So kind of you! Oh, such a behavior, looks like a empire indeed, thankfully powerless these days.

I strongly suggest you informing yourself better (or take your head out of your a**) about history and political rights over territories before claiming so freely how good you apply "democracy".... (aka remaining votes of Brexit by an amusing majority in some territories). What about a new vote for Scotland now that the UK cant hide its lies anymore? Oh yeah, not convenient. What about Irelands merge? Oh yeah, not convenient. Just put half of the population rights under a bus, bully other countries sovereignty, and call it democracy. LoL, classic UK.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:17 am

Jayafe wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
[
Really not sure what Gibraltar has to do with this...but if you insist.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibralt ... ndum,_2002

Let me introduce you to this wikipedia page. Democracy in action, one of the main principals of Great Britain.

We recently gave another one of our overseas territories, the falkland Islands, a sovereignty referendum in 2013. We're quite good at giving out independence considering the british empire no longer exists.


Let me describe it as BS in action. You have a serious deficit in your definition of what democracy is and means. You can not give rights to people who are occupying a territory and pretend its legit just because you came up with it.


Those people have been living there for over 300 years. No other living person has a better claim than them.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:57 am

Jayafe wrote:
Exactly the same than Islas Malvinas


Do you mean The Falklands? :wave:

Do you need some twisted to go with that bitter? :rotfl:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:51 pm

Jayafe wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
[
Really not sure what Gibraltar has to do with this...but if you insist.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibralt ... ndum,_2002

Let me introduce you to this wikipedia page. Democracy in action, one of the main principals of Great Britain.

We recently gave another one of our overseas territories, the falkland Islands, a sovereignty referendum in 2013. We're quite good at giving out independence considering the british empire no longer exists.


Let me describe it as BS in action. You have a serious deficit in your definition of what democracy is and means. You can not give rights to people who are occupying a territory and pretend its legit just because you came up with it. They don't have right to decide about countries sovereignty, sorry, even if you state they do. The UK has been always quite good rewriting history, since the Blas de Lezo's times. Shame that the stubborn attitude of the UK regarding the colonial status of Gibraltar (recognized by the UN, and recognized a solution between both countries needs to be brought up, nothing to do with the people living there, that's why it's called a representative democracy) makes you think you have a word about a foreign territories. The colonial status of the rock implies that the solution of "let a few squatters living in a tax heaven" decide about signed treaties is pure BS. That's a random decision with the intention of getting favorable PR and blame and undermine the other part for merely nationalistic and snob reasons.

Exactly the same than Islas Malvinas, an Argentinian territory that, after being invaded and occupied, the UK has decided that they can say who has sovereignty over it. So kind of you! Oh, such a behavior, looks like a empire indeed, thankfully powerless these days.

I strongly suggest you informing yourself better (or take your head out of your a**) about history and political rights over territories before claiming so freely how good you apply "democracy".... (aka remaining votes of Brexit by an amusing majority in some territories). What about a new vote for Scotland now that the UK cant hide its lies anymore? Oh yeah, not convenient. What about Irelands merge? Oh yeah, not convenient. Just put half of the population rights under a bus, bully other countries sovereignty, and call it democracy. LoL, classic UK.


Gibraltar and the falklands are more than happy staying as UK territories. What are their alternatives other than becoming independent?

Spain and Argentina LOL, nobody would want that.

I'm very glad you brought up this topic regarding Great Britain and its Great British territories though.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:23 pm

salttee wrote:
Why don't the Britts just have a new referendum? Or at least have a referendum about whether to have a new referendum.


Because we've already voted and got the answer.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:15 pm

Arion640 wrote:
salttee wrote:
Why don't the Britts just have a new referendum? Or at least have a referendum about whether to have a new referendum.


Because we've already voted and got the answer.


I'm sure all those people googling what's the EU right after finding out the result feel much better now.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:30 pm

JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
salttee wrote:
Why don't the Britts just have a new referendum? Or at least have a referendum about whether to have a new referendum.


Because we've already voted and got the answer.


I'm sure all those people googling what's the EU right after finding out the result feel much better now.


Come on, you must be able to come up with something better than that?
 
salttee
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:47 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Come on, you must be able to come up with something better than that?
You need to read JJJ's post as a metaphor. It is reasonable to believe that many of the people who voted for separation from the EU weren't aware of all the consequences that would arise from such a course of action. Now that the ramifications of Britexit are better known it would seem wise to test the populace again.

Unless one is a rabid Britexit believer, in which case they would want to enter the madhouse before them without looking back.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:49 am

salttee wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Come on, you must be able to come up with something better than that?
You need to read JJJ's post as a metaphor. It is reasonable to believe that many of the people who voted for separation from the EU weren't aware of all the consequences that would arise from such a course of action. Now that the ramifications of Britexit are better known it would seem wise to test the populace again.

Unless one is a rabid Britexit believer, in which case they would want to enter the madhouse before them without looking back.


And indeed polls show a marked preference for a second referendum.

That's the reason there are regular elections on the first place. People should be allowed to change their minds and punish those who misled or outright lied to the electorate.

Especially when after two years after the fact no one seems to know what Brexit means other than "Brexit means Brexit".

"Easiest trade deal in history", " they need us more than we need them", " there will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside" etc etc
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:02 am

salttee wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Come on, you must be able to come up with something better than that?
You need to read JJJ's post as a metaphor. It is reasonable to believe that many of the people who voted for separation from the EU weren't aware of all the consequences that would arise from such a course of action. Now that the ramifications of Britexit are better known it would seem wise to test the populace again.

Unless one is a rabid Britexit believer, in which case they would want to enter the madhouse before them without looking back.


Provide me with some hard evidence that is actually the case and by all means I will believe you. We're a big fan of evidence on this thread so if you could that would be great.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:05 am

The vote stands, so all is left is to finish it. Hard Brexit, now.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:14 am

Arion640 wrote:
salttee wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Come on, you must be able to come up with something better than that?
You need to read JJJ's post as a metaphor. It is reasonable to believe that many of the people who voted for separation from the EU weren't aware of all the consequences that would arise from such a course of action. Now that the ramifications of Britexit are better known it would seem wise to test the populace again.

Unless one is a rabid Britexit believer, in which case they would want to enter the madhouse before them without looking back.


Provide me with some hard evidence that is actually the case and by all means I will believe you. We're a big fan of evidence on this thread so if you could that would be great.


You want more evidence that the people you voted for don't have the slightest idea on what do they want and how do they want to achieve it?

Every time they open the mouth the pile of evidence goes up and up. Ignore it at your own peril.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:47 am

JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
salttee wrote:
You need to read JJJ's post as a metaphor. It is reasonable to believe that many of the people who voted for separation from the EU weren't aware of all the consequences that would arise from such a course of action. Now that the ramifications of Britexit are better known it would seem wise to test the populace again.

Unless one is a rabid Britexit believer, in which case they would want to enter the madhouse before them without looking back.


Provide me with some hard evidence that is actually the case and by all means I will believe you. We're a big fan of evidence on this thread so if you could that would be great.


You want more evidence that the people you voted for don't have the slightest idea on what do they want and how do they want to achieve it?

Every time they open the mouth the pile of evidence goes up and up. Ignore it at your own peril.


You're just giving an opinion, it's all well and good saying people didn't know what they voted for and it started as a rumor in the media, which has been extrapolated.

Unless there's any hard evidence instead of opinions in newspapers you have no way of proving it.
 
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sebolino
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:09 am

You have all evidences here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=brexit+ ... g4ChCwBAg4

People voted for the brexit because of this campaign of lies. It's extremely easy to manipulate a crowd when you play with lies and fears (Trump won't deny it). Now Britons will suffer their own choice, I find it sad but that's the way it is.
I heard that the government was thinking about cancelling the brexit, I don't know how true it is though.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:15 am

Arion640 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Provide me with some hard evidence that is actually the case and by all means I will believe you. We're a big fan of evidence on this thread so if you could that would be great.


You want more evidence that the people you voted for don't have the slightest idea on what do they want and how do they want to achieve it?

Every time they open the mouth the pile of evidence goes up and up. Ignore it at your own peril.


You're just giving an opinion, it's all well and good saying people didn't know what they voted for and it started as a rumor in the media, which has been extrapolated.

Unless there's any hard evidence instead of opinions in newspapers you have no way of proving it.


I'm not saying the voters didn't know. People voted based on what they thought they knew and what different campaigns told them at the time.

What I'm saying is that the politicians who ran the leave campaign don't have the slightest idea on how the EU works, on how international trade works or even what do they want by leaving the EU.

That's been proven time and again. On just about every occasion they open their mouth.

Incidentally that's also the reason why the UK Govt doesn't have a set position. They don't f***ing know what they're talking about.

And the rats are already leaving the boat. From Nigel "I didn't say we would be better off" Farage to JRM putting his investor fund in Ireland to Nigel Lawson applying to French residency.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:39 am

a little re-cap

- There's still no solution on the Irish border
- There's still no UK decision on "the" customs union / "a" customs union / customs partnership / max fac, let alone agreement with the EU
- There's still no deal on access to the single market
- We still stand to lose 65+ trade deals on Brexit day, including the recent one with Canada
- We will lose access to the new trade deal with Japan
- The EU is set to put in place trade deals with New Zealand and Australia, which we won't have access to
- We are now set to lose access to europol
- We have lost the EMA
- We lose military access to Galileo and contracts on its development and running
- Immigration policy post Brexit still not decided or announced
- The divorce settlement, financial hit and reduction in tax intake will dwarf any saved EU contribution - there is no "Brexit dividend"
- The Government itself has put cost of no deal at £1.25 billion a week to the UK economy
- Companies are starting to outsource work on product certification and legal compliance outside of the UK
- Pound is still worth substantially less against Euro and US Dollar than before referendum
- No deal has yet been made on aviation on losing EU treaties, including both EU and US markets
- Trade deals with US will only be done if beneficial to US's interest - Trump is imposing tariffs where this is not the case
- EU are asking EU27 to step up preparations for a no-deal
- Businesses are withholding investment into the UK
- British products are likely to continue to need to adhere to EU standards, but have no say in these regulations
- EU laws will be integrated in to the UK's statute book, but we will have no say on them
- It is quite possible future EU law changes may also need to be integrated without a say if we want access to the single market
- If we don't get access to the single market our Services sector (80% of UK economy) lose access to the EU

and what is the UK doing?

- Infighting over Brexit within cabinet and party
- Fighting attempts for our elected parliament to have a say in the event of no deal
- There is little investment or preparation for a "no-deal" scenario
- Brexiteer Rees-Mogg's investment company is now setting up investment funds in the EU and warning of dangers of a hard Brexit, whilst he personally backs hard Brexit
- Brexiteer John Redwood tells investors to withdraw money from UK and invest in EU - whilst backing a hard Brexit
- Ignoring the fact that in the EU we could have had an immigration policy ensuring adequate health insurance and financial stability for immigrants, but domestically chose not to.
- Saying that we cannot go back on the will of the people, even though it is unclear what the will is on these matters

There are only 17 weeks to go until the October EU summit when this was meant to be all decided upon.

So much for this being the "easiest deal" and "they need us more that we need them".

So still the British hypocrisy, inaction, infighting, lies and propaganda continues.....
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:18 am

Seems accurate, all those months in and nothing has really been decided, except for an extension. The outcome of October EU summit will probably be another extension. UK needs to be clear on what they want and the room or maneuver isn't there for May. Theresa May has currently the least desirable job in the UK.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:00 am

Dutchy wrote:
UK needs to be clear on what they want and the room or maneuver isn't there for May.


Indeed, this is not only true now but also should have been:

1) Clear in the referendum campaign (instead the Brexiteers promised an impossible continuation of all the good bits, without the deemed bad bits, with a financial benefit to the UK in the bargain, with no plan in place on how to achieve these objectives)

2) Clear before Article 50 was triggered (Instead the UK and the cabinet had no set strategy on what it wanted or on its negotiating objectives, with perhaps Theresa May believing in the lies and spin of the Leave referendum campaign)

Dutchy wrote:
Theresa May has currently the least desirable job in the UK.


And I'm not sure this will change until such time as:

1) Brexit has happened, at which point its then a job of trying to fix the things that have gone wrong, or

2) The pepole have had the opportunity to decide whether they still want to go along with this or not, i.e. http://www.peoples-vote.uk , giving a clearer mandate on the way forward.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:42 am

Richard28 wrote:
2) The pepole have had the opportunity to decide whether they still want to go along with this or not, i.e. http://www.peoples-vote.uk , giving a clearer mandate on the way forward.


Theresa May thought she was going to get this with the snap elections, didn't work out that way. No win situation.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:34 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Theresa May thought she was going to get this with the snap elections, didn't work out that way. No win situation.


I think it was more muddled than that, as both main political parties in the 2017 election went with honouring the referendum result in their manifesto's, but both had (and still have) no clear vision on what that means and what the end point will look like, or indeed what concessions will have to be made to get there.

As such, the election itself (irrespective of the result) gave no clearer mandate on how to proceed, and the result was the double whammy that lost the Tories their majority and put them into bed with the DUP, constraining them still further on that difficult, near impossible question of Northern Ireland.

All that has happened (since even before the referendum) is that the can is continually kicked down the road. The leave side have no clear picture of what is achievable and how they will deliver it, instead it has turned to a battle for a hard Brexit and how we must leave all european institutions, go it alone, and sacrifice all our hard fought trade deals, irrespective of the harm it will have on the UK, our economy and jobs and the cost (although they still like to pretend this Brexit Divdend exists, which of course it does not)

This was of course not the promise in the referendum....
 
salttee
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:22 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Provide me with some hard evidence that is actually the case and by all means I will believe you. We're a big fan of evidence on this thread so if you could that would be great.

You ignored the qualifiers: "It is reasonable to believe" and "it would seem wise"; I stand behind my post.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:28 pm

salttee wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Provide me with some hard evidence that is actually the case and by all means I will believe you. We're a big fan of evidence on this thread so if you could that would be great.

You ignored the qualifiers: "It is reasonable to believe" and "it would seem wise"; I stand behind my post.


Did I now?

Well we still have an opinion then, it's innocent until proven guilty basically. Please by all means, bring me the evidence and I will agree with you.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:21 pm

Arion640 wrote:

You're just giving an opinion, it's all well and good saying people didn't know what they voted for and it started as a rumor in the media, which has been extrapolated.

Unless there's any hard evidence instead of opinions in newspapers you have no way of proving it.


I'm inclined to agree. Lord Ashcroft's poll, published on the very pro-Brexit ConservativeHome, shows that 63% of Leave voters would choose to leave the EU even if that meant breaking up the UK. To wit:

"Finally, we asked Leave voters in Great Britain what they choose to do if it were not possible both to leave the EU and keep England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales together in the United Kingdom. More than six in ten, including half of Labour voters and nearly three quarters of Conservatives, said they would choose to leave the EU."

https://www.conservativehome.com/platfo ... order.html

I imagine the percentage of England Leave voters accepting breaking up the UK as a price of Brexit is even higher. I find it hard to believe that these people did not know what they were voting for. They appear to know exactly what they want, no matter the cost.

Kind of solves the NI issue, DUP concerns notwithstanding.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:56 pm

That basically means that they don't care about the consequences, no matter how severe they are. Just quite fundamentally about leaving the EU. That means they only will accept to sever all ties and thus a very hard Brexit.

I think that is quite a stupid way to approach life in general.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Tugger
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:17 pm

Dutchy wrote:
That basically means that they don't care about the consequences, no matter how severe they are. Just quite fundamentally about leaving the EU. That means they only will accept to sever all ties and thus a very hard Brexit.

I think that is quite a stupid way to approach life in general.

But are they given any real option(s)? Basically to work with the EU and "Stay in" anything they are being required to cede governance and regulation etc, to an outside authority (the EU and there requirements)
Or....
They can be on their own and not have that.

I have not seen any "in between" being offered of any real significance. So I can't call it stupid if there is no choice.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:29 pm

Tugger wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
That basically means that they don't care about the consequences, no matter how severe they are. Just quite fundamentally about leaving the EU. That means they only will accept to sever all ties and thus a very hard Brexit.

I think that is quite a stupid way to approach life in general.

But are they given any real option(s)? Basically to work with the EU and "Stay in" anything they are being required to cede governance and regulation etc, to an outside authority (the EU and there requirements)
Or....
They can be on their own and not have that.

I have not seen any "in between" being offered of any real significance. So I can't call it stupid if there is no choice.

Tugg


Not true, all kinds of deals are possible, all to the desires of the other party:

Image

It is a choice Brittian has to make. Working together is giving up some sovereignty, that is a given. Nobody seriously does suggest that Brittian pulls out of each and every international deal they have made?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:02 pm

Tugger wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
That basically means that they don't care about the consequences, no matter how severe they are. Just quite fundamentally about leaving the EU. That means they only will accept to sever all ties and thus a very hard Brexit.

I think that is quite a stupid way to approach life in general.

But are they given any real option(s)? Basically to work with the EU and "Stay in" anything they are being required to cede governance and regulation etc, to an outside authority (the EU and there requirements)
Or....
They can be on their own and not have that.

I have not seen any "in between" being offered of any real significance. So I can't call it stupid if there is no choice.

Tugg


Fair point.

That said, If Leave voters know what they are voting for, then they know what the in-between option is.

Doesn't need to be presented to them. Unless, of course, they don't know what they voted for.
 
salttee
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:14 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

You're just giving an opinion, it's all well and good saying people didn't know what they voted for and it started as a rumor in the media, which has been extrapolated.

Unless there's any hard evidence instead of opinions in newspapers you have no way of proving it.


I'm inclined to agree. Lord Ashcroft's poll, published on the very pro-Brexit ConservativeHome, shows that 63% of Leave voters would choose to leave the EU even if that meant breaking up the UK.
Yet 37% of the leave voters didn't go along with that. And the vote to leave was won by less than 2%.
Does that tell you anything?
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:26 pm

salttee wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

You're just giving an opinion, it's all well and good saying people didn't know what they voted for and it started as a rumor in the media, which has been extrapolated.

Unless there's any hard evidence instead of opinions in newspapers you have no way of proving it.


I'm inclined to agree. Lord Ashcroft's poll, published on the very pro-Brexit ConservativeHome, shows that 63% of Leave voters would choose to leave the EU even if that meant breaking up the UK.
Yet 37% of the leave voters didn't go along with that. And the vote to leave was won by less than 2%.
Does that tell you anything?


2% meaning a majority of over 1.2 million not 1.2 thousand. If the vote had been won by 10% you would be saying "and the vote to leave was won by less than 10%".
 
salttee
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:03 pm

Maybe if I state it in the reverse: 37% of Leave voters would choose to stay in the EU if (leaving) meant breaking up the UK.

Can you see it more clearly now?
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:46 pm

salttee wrote:
Maybe if I state it in the reverse: 37% of Leave voters would choose to stay in the EU if (leaving) meant breaking up the UK.

Can you see it more clearly now?


Irrelevant. The UK cannot break up without a referendum which we won't be having anytime soon.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:45 pm

EU withdrawal bill passed in UK house of commons. All the hijacking attempts have failed.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:04 am

salttee wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

You're just giving an opinion, it's all well and good saying people didn't know what they voted for and it started as a rumor in the media, which has been extrapolated.

Unless there's any hard evidence instead of opinions in newspapers you have no way of proving it.


I'm inclined to agree. Lord Ashcroft's poll, published on the very pro-Brexit ConservativeHome, shows that 63% of Leave voters would choose to leave the EU even if that meant breaking up the UK.
Yet 37% of the leave voters didn't go along with that. And the vote to leave was won by less than 2%.
Does that tell you anything?


Well, yes. It tells me that the majority of Leave voters don't actually care about the United Kingdom. They appear to care only about England, and they're willing to sacrifice the United Kingdom for it.

That suggests that they know something about what they want. Can't say I agree with their point of view, but here we are.

The other 37% probably include Scot, Welsh and NI Leavers who had no idea how dispensable their countrymen view them as being, along with a handful of "liberal" Brexiteers who know what they want, but refuse to acknowledge the rural-urban divide on immigration, free trade etc. Which, I suppose, is a nice way of saying that the real Brexit battle may well be between "liberal" Leavers and rural England.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:10 am

Arion640 wrote:
EU withdrawal bill passed in UK house of commons. All the hijacking attempts have failed.


Oh, is that meant to be an achievement?

All I recall is a dispute between two groups of the same party, with both insisting that Brexit will happen. All rather odd.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:08 am

Arion640 wrote:
EU withdrawal bill passed in UK house of commons.

15 months late. How on earth could somebody press the A50 button without having this bill passed? It's just a technicality which prevents the UK from being lawless territory on day one after Brexit.

And as an outsider, I must wonder, how on earth could you have the referendum two years ago without the major details in the withdrawal bill having been agreed by parliament and made public?

The real issues you can read about slightly above in post #1525 by Richard28. With this speed Brexit will last a hundred years, but you don't have the last 99 years. Or if you think that you have those 99 years, it is very naive to count on such patience from EU27.

At this time, during the transition period, and with a mostly nonfunctioning UK government, the EU27 will likely wait politely and patiently. Brexit is an UK issue, mostly, but it also has slight impact on EU27, so at some time, if things don't shift to a way more speedy gear, EU27 will have to make decisions for you.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:49 am

The EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU, they will play along. The only pressing needs is to stop the payments to the EU, as the money will make the UK a prospering country. All problems will be gone once the leeches of the EU have no more control. #HardBrexit #now #freedomispriceless
 
opticalilyushin
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:08 am

seahawk wrote:
The EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU, they will play along. The only pressing needs is to stop the payments to the EU, as the money will make the UK a prospering country. All problems will be gone once the leeches of the EU have no more control. #HardBrexit #now #freedomispriceless


Somehow I suspect Theresa May will not fill the financial void when EU funding to rural parts of the UK ends.
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:31 am

seahawk wrote:
The EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU, they will play along. The only pressing needs is to stop the payments to the EU, as the money will make the UK a prospering country. All problems will be gone once the leeches of the EU have no more control. #HardBrexit #now #freedomispriceless


I never know when you're being sarcastic or posting your genuine thoughts. I hope sarcastic. If not, they are all demonstrably false and shown to be so on multiple occasions.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:24 am

opticalilyushin wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU, they will play along. The only pressing needs is to stop the payments to the EU, as the money will make the UK a prospering country. All problems will be gone once the leeches of the EU have no more control. #HardBrexit #now #freedomispriceless


Somehow I suspect Theresa May will not fill the financial void when EU funding to rural parts of the UK ends.


English parts may suffer. Wales and Scotland parliaments have some powers to counter act this.

The EU has caused the downfalls of some areas by helping to re locate manufacturing to poland, another reason why people voted for brexit....
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:58 am

Arion640 wrote:
The EU has caused the downfalls of some areas by helping to re locate manufacturing to poland


No such thing.

Purely free markets operating and some manufacturers choosing to relocate operations to a cheaper part of the EU.

The very same argument no less than you were arguing for up thread when discussing the weakness of the pound and how this could help the UK :scratchchin:
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:21 am

Arion640 wrote:

The EU has caused the downfalls of some areas by helping to re locate manufacturing to poland, another reason why people voted for brexit....


And what will the people vote for once the Jacob Rees-Mogg/ Patrick Minford/ Economists for Brexit vision of zero tariffs and no trade barriers relocates most farming jobs and even more manufacturing jobs out of the U.K.? They're planning to do a lot more free trade with the developing world, which offers even lower costs than Poland.

There's that "liberal"- rural Brexit divide again.

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