User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9229
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:16 am

The actual problem is that some still believe that a deal with Trump would be better than a deal with the EU. Does anybody believe that there is even the slightest chance that in a conflict the USA would not use their weight to decide the issue in their favour. And in this relationship there are not 27 countries that need to find a majority, but just 2 with one being much more powerful than the other.
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2751
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:20 am

Arion640 wrote:
I’ve spent plenty of time in the past 6 months answering posts but the pro EU clan are so blinded and think it’s the EU is the be all and end all you can’t even accept perfectly valid points. Then there’s a few on this thread who haven’t even lived in the UK (or even visited perhaps?) and know nothing about the impact the EU has had on the UK, but they still think they know best.

So instead i’ll take a different approach and I’ll just enjoy myself by sharing all those fantastic news articles you all should read.


1) scrbml and me, who you reference in this reply, have both said we are from the UK
2) You have to win an argument, merely posting soundbites, gloating and irrelevant references to North Korea, USSR does not do this
3) Such conversations should also about learning about the other sides concerns and trying to understand and emphasise and not be deliberately divisive, which you often are.
4) You have shown in many posts that your knowledge of how the EU operates is flawed. To properly understand and assess the impacts of Brexit and leave solutions this should be understood - there is a reason you have two ears but one mouth, they should also be used in that ratio.
5) In our world the impact of the EU has been overwhelmingly good, our economy has flourished over 40 years, unemployment is low and we have much more in the way of rights and freedoms than we have ever had before. Sure not everything is perfect, but the bad bits are insignificant in our daily lives to the good.
6) You have ducked answering key questions that are central to the Brexit question, e.g. Northern Ireland border, what "valid points" have we not answered?
Last edited by Richard28 on Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
bananaboy
Posts: 1644
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:58 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:27 am

Arion640 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
haha, quite an accomplishment to tell so much untruths in a few sentences.

1. Supreme Leader, nice frame, but he isn't the real power lies with the council of government leaders, not with the European Commision
2. It is said that his back was acting up and he wasn't drunk (although he is known for his drinking habits)
3. He is not running the EU, see point 1.
4. Sure you can get rid of him, if you wanted to. You just have to get rid of the whole commission.

Quite a lot of frames and half-truths in there.


Well, isn´t the pattern clear? The most avid supporters of a hard Brexit show massive lack of knowledge regarding the inner workings and rules or the EU, and refuse to memorize the bits they get from those more knowledgeable.

best regards
Thomas



And you all get so frustrated and wound up about it. Which is brilliant.


Very sad that ignorance seems to have become a badge of honour.

Mark
All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2751
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:09 am

Dictionary:
troll, noun, a person who makes a deliberately offensive or provocative online post.

Arion640 wrote:
And you all get so frustrated and wound up about it. Which is brilliant.
 
Arion640
Posts: 2833
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:11 am

bananaboy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Well, isn´t the pattern clear? The most avid supporters of a hard Brexit show massive lack of knowledge regarding the inner workings and rules or the EU, and refuse to memorize the bits they get from those more knowledgeable.

best regards
Thomas



And you all get so frustrated and wound up about it. Which is brilliant.


Very sad that ignorance seems to have become a badge of honour.

Mark


Ignorance or the truth?
1973-2020
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9765
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:11 am

seahawk wrote:
The actual problem is that some still believe that a deal with Trump would be better than a deal with the EU. Does anybody believe that there is even the slightest chance that in a conflict the USA would not use their weight to decide the issue in their favour. And in this relationship there are not 27 countries that need to find a majority, but just 2 with one being much more powerful than the other.

To be fair to the folks across the pond, how did things work between them and the European countries before the EU was formed?
During the Gulf War threads it was always bought up that the US was colonizing Iraq with its troops on the ground, yet they had troops in Europe since the end of WWII and no one in any of those countries would ever say they were US colonies, better yet, if the USA was so bad, why did they even allow the creation of the EU?
Reality check is because they could not since none of the countries where they had troops were colonies.

I think as a general statement that the US will take advantage of the smaller nation is an over simplification, here in the Caribbean, it is not the USA who initiated the bulk of the actions that has seen money laundering moved out of the region to Europe and the USA, nor the killing of the so called tax shelters that the European nation created in the region in the first place.

Maybe the EU is benevolent and does not use their size to take advantage of smaller nations - since the EU is not a state - but we have evidence on the ground that it is not so, so let's throw that one out the basket and move on to others.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1348
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:15 am

You forgot that De Gaulle pulled France out of Nato and despite the fact that our stupid sarkozy made us rejoin 50 years later, there is no US base or troops in France :)
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9229
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:29 am

par13del wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The actual problem is that some still believe that a deal with Trump would be better than a deal with the EU. Does anybody believe that there is even the slightest chance that in a conflict the USA would not use their weight to decide the issue in their favour. And in this relationship there are not 27 countries that need to find a majority, but just 2 with one being much more powerful than the other.

To be fair to the folks across the pond, how did things work between them and the European countries before the EU was formed?
During the Gulf War threads it was always bought up that the US was colonizing Iraq with its troops on the ground, yet they had troops in Europe since the end of WWII and no one in any of those countries would ever say they were US colonies, better yet, if the USA was so bad, why did they even allow the creation of the EU?
Reality check is because they could not since none of the countries where they had troops were colonies.

I think as a general statement that the US will take advantage of the smaller nation is an over simplification, here in the Caribbean, it is not the USA who initiated the bulk of the actions that has seen money laundering moved out of the region to Europe and the USA, nor the killing of the so called tax shelters that the European nation created in the region in the first place.

Maybe the EU is benevolent and does not use their size to take advantage of smaller nations - since the EU is not a state - but we have evidence on the ground that it is not so, so let's throw that one out the basket and move on to others.


The EU is far from benevolent, yet decisions need the support of the majority of the member states as well as the parliament. A trade deal with the USA would be simple 1:1 relationship, with no changing majorities as the US will always be the more powerful player. And if you look at the erratic president they have today, this can be risky.
 
bananaboy
Posts: 1644
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:58 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:34 am

Arion640 wrote:
bananaboy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:


And you all get so frustrated and wound up about it. Which is brilliant.


Very sad that ignorance seems to have become a badge of honour.

Mark


Ignorance or the truth?


It was suggested that you were lacking awareness of how the EU worked and you seemed to take pleasure in that.

It's bizarre. There's plenty of things I don't understand, but that's my failing and certainly not something I'd boast about.

But, I guess we're in a post-expert world where rhetoric and slogans matter more than demonstrable fact. #alternativefacts :roll:

Mark
All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2751
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:46 am

Arion640 wrote:
Ignorance or the truth?


Ignorance or Northern Ireland Border answer?
 
Arion640
Posts: 2833
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:16 am

Richard28 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Ignorance or the truth?


Ignorance or Northern Ireland Border answer?


I’m not sure where this whole NI border thing has come from that i have to apparently answer?
1973-2020
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1858
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:23 am

Arion640 wrote:

Ignorance or the truth?


"Truth"? I can think of at least two instances where you've misrepresented the "truth" (or lied, if you prefer).

Not for nothing but your earlier posts were worth thinking about. Now it's hard to tell if you and sevenair arent the same poster. Kick it up a notch.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3477
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:26 am

Richard28 wrote:
Dictionary:
troll, noun, a person who makes a deliberately offensive or provocative online post.

Arion640 wrote:
And you all get so frustrated and wound up about it. Which is brilliant.


The meltdown is almost painful to watch.

"So what if I don't know shit about this, my vote counted the same as yours and we won".
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9765
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:32 am

A question on the NI border issue, the "troubles" is supposed to be the big issue as codified in the GF Agreement.
Ok fine, I understand that, the basis of the troubles is the unification of the island of Ireland under the Catholic (Republic of Ireland) banner, since the GF agreement how has that been working out? Yes demographics has shown that the catholic communities are growing much faster but how has the removal of the hard border assisted in the integration of the two sides?
If a new border has to be put in place, what does that mean for the integration of the two sides, how will it detract from the current integration, even of the border is put into the North Sea, it still does not mean that the two side will get any closer to being under one banner until all the Republicans die out and the UK in general decides they no longer want NI.
So I guess from a distance, my question is what is the big fear of the troubles that were so bad in the 60's to 80's that would re-emerge if goods had to be monitored at the border, is the fear real, has the passage of time meant nothing, if so, what does that mean for the EU and its drive to kill nationalism?
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2751
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:37 am

Arion640 wrote:
I’m not sure where this whole NI border thing has come from that i have to apparently answer?



OK I'll try again:

How can you honour the Good Friday Agreement and avoid having a hard border with Northern Ireland, either:

a) on the Northern Ireland Border, or
b) in the Irish Sea

whilst avoiding extremely close harmonisation of rules and standards and being in a customs union with the EU.

Answer that and you'll get your Brexit, otherwise it is likely to be as soft as New Zealand Butter (imported through the customs union trade deal no less ;) )
Last edited by Richard28 on Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11908
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:45 am

Richard28 wrote:
Answer that and you'll get your Brexit,


he probably forgot claiming to have provided solutions to all the problems related to Brexit.....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10892
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:03 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:


And you all get so frustrated and wound up about it. Which is brilliant.


CHeck, you are just a troll, explains a lot.


Am I? I’ve certainly engaged in plenty of discussion with you in the time this thread has been running. I’m only apparently a troll because I don’t agree with your view point. Infact me or Sevenair opposing anything the EU does or even saying the EU is a bad thing is us being trolls.



No, troll-like behavior is to say something just to get a reaction from someone. Which apparently was the point with your post about Juncker.

So to be more exact, that was a troll post and has nothing to do with my point of view or that we are at odds over the EU :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10892
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:17 pm

seahawk wrote:
The actual problem is that some still believe that a deal with Trump would be better than a deal with the EU. Does anybody believe that there is even the slightest chance that in a conflict the USA would not use their weight to decide the issue in their favour. And in this relationship there are not 27 countries that need to find a majority, but just 2 with one being much more powerful than the other.


Apparently, May has angered Trump with her Brexit plans.

TRUMP'S BREXIT BLAST Donald Trump told Theresa May how to do Brexit ‘but she wrecked it’ – and says the US trade deal is off
In a world exclusive interview with The Sun, the US President said Theresa May had ignored his advice by opting for a soft Brexit strategy


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6766531/t ... -deal-off/

So all hope for a swift UK-US deal is off.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
JJJ
Posts: 3477
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:20 pm

par13del wrote:
A question on the NI border issue, the "troubles" is supposed to be the big issue as codified in the GF Agreement.
Ok fine, I understand that, the basis of the troubles is the unification of the island of Ireland under the Catholic (Republic of Ireland) banner, since the GF agreement how has that been working out? Yes demographics has shown that the catholic communities are growing much faster but how has the removal of the hard border assisted in the integration of the two sides?
If a new border has to be put in place, what does that mean for the integration of the two sides, how will it detract from the current integration, even of the border is put into the North Sea, it still does not mean that the two side will get any closer to being under one banner until all the Republicans die out and the UK in general decides they no longer want NI.
So I guess from a distance, my question is what is the big fear of the troubles that were so bad in the 60's to 80's that would re-emerge if goods had to be monitored at the border, is the fear real, has the passage of time meant nothing, if so, what does that mean for the EU and its drive to kill nationalism?


Check out the latest news of what's been happening during the twelfth (riots, the odd bomb or two) and you will see tensions are still there below the usually calm surface.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9765
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Apparently, May has angered Trump with her Brexit plans.

If it is not acceptable to the EU does it make a difference?
POTUS may be a bit slow understanding UK politics, but Brexit is done.
 
cargolex
Posts: 1245
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:20 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:03 pm

seahawk wrote:

President Trump thinks otherwise: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44815558


He also takes pains, just like Stephen Hawking used to, to remind us that he's a "stable genius." So you'll forgive me if I don't put much stock in what he "thinks." "Thinking" is not his strong suit.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3141
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So all hope for a swift UK-US deal is off.


Any swift deal with the US was never realistic for the simple reason the single most important trade deal negotiations ever for the UK are hopefully about to start next year: those with the EU. These negotiations will likely carry on for several years (possibly longer than the currently proposed transition period foreseen for them) and in any case should absorb all of the UK's trade negotiating resources and full attention if they are to be conducted seriously and effectively.

Besides, any deal with the US that should be agreed sooner is entirely dependent on the final outcome of the UK-EU negotiations, as the 2 are very much linked, so I fail to see why a US trade deal is so often presented as an alternative and a big win already now; it really isn't. At best it's going to be a complementary something only, one of diminishing potential value the more the UK remains aligned with the EU: under it's currently proposed end state of the UK-EU relationship, that value is rather limited indeed and negotiations need to start still, so expect further erosion of the 'freedoms' gained.

For instance: the implementation of the UK's alternative proposal on creating a custom territory as it is proposed by the UK is known to be only possibly put into operations several years after the end of the transition period, at best, if ever in full even. Up until that moment however, the UK will -under the proposals by the British government- effectively remain in a full customs union with the EU and thus be fully unable to see any independently negotiated trade deals take effect!!!
Indeed, up until that moment, the UK is in exactly the same global trade situation as Turkey is, which simply has to accept all signed EU deals as they are, while it can not have their own deals.

Even if the idea of the custom territory ever flies, since the UK proposes to remain in the single market for goods (provided the Eu agrees to this) forever, it means any independently negotiated UK trade deal will be about just services, not goods nor agriculture... That's taking the best out of a trade deal in the eyes of Trump, seeing how obsessed he is with international trade being centered around goods like German cars, Chinese consumer goods, planes, US agricultural products etc Sure, Trump could do Hollywood a big favour by opening up the US financial markets so Hollywood can more easily roll out US content in return (and Brits will likely get to see fewer UK productions as a consequence), but I'm not sure Hollywood is high on his to please list. ;)

In short: any UK-US trade deal taking effect is years, if not decades away, and under the current proposals by the British government will not cover any goods, which happen to be the most important thing in international trade in the mind of the current US administration. For that aspect of US export to the UK however, he'll effectively have to continue talking with the EU, just as today (which he refuses) because the UK can only mirror any deal helt by the EU. No EU deal on it, means no UK deal either.
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2751
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:07 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
In short: any UK-US trade deal taking effect is years, if not decades away, and under the current proposals by the British government will not cover any goods, which happen to be the most important thing in international trade in the mind of the current US administration. For that aspect of US export to the UK however, he'll effectively have to continue talking with the EU, just as today (which he refuses) because the UK can only mirror any deal helt by the EU. No EU deal on it, means no UK deal either.



Good analysis sabenapilot.

I would also add that trade deals including services are practically unheard of outside of the EU - so no template or precedent exists.

You then also have to factor in we want to export services because we are very successful at them - and therefore the risk from the counter-parties side is that the deal would be very one sided, and as such there would be pressure to open up other areas, which as sebenapilot correctly points out may not be possible through harmonisation with the EU, or could be unpalatable to the UK - e.g. access to the NHS for US pharmaceuticals, which could push up the price of healthcare.

The conversations and interviews with the US are all very ideological and hypothetical, nothing can happen for a long, long time (unless there is a hard brexit and no deal or transition in March 2019, in which case we are pretty screwed as an economy - so parliament should not let this happen).
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9765
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:14 pm

As there will be no Brexit the whole point of discussing trade agreements with the US, Canada, India, China etc are moot since the UK will be tied to the EU and they will be unable to make such deals.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3141
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:30 pm

Richard28 wrote:
I would also add that trade deals including services are practically unheard of outside of the EU - so no template or precedent exists.


Indeed:
bilateral trade deals including also services are extremely, extremely rare throughout the world;
bilateral trade deals on just services alone are currently non-existent at all even, globally!

But okay, that shouldn't mean it isn't somehow possible to achieve in future as there's no law of nature that forbids it: after all, the EU's SM is effectively a very nice and also a unique example of a multilateral trade deal including services too.

I even give it to the UK that if any country in the world would ever be the first to succeed at signing a trade deal on services alone, it might be the UK; the only problem of course is the number of counterparties that would be willing to sign up for such a trade deal on just services alone is very very limited for the simple reason it would be a very much one sided deal indeed for all the others.

The most likely candidate that wouldn't have to be scared about the outcome is the US: it's probably one of the few parties in the world -together with the EU and possibly also Switzerland on a more limited scale- that can put its foot next to the UK on services alone and turn it into a win-win deal for both: the only problem is the current US administration doesn't believe in win-win deals, they are of the zero sum type as we all know…

That just leaves the EU and Switzerland then for the UK's future fantastic trade deals on services alone, isn't it?
The first, the UK has unilaterally scrapped already for purely ideological reasons and not to admit leaving the SM is a folly it can not afford; the second candidate is currently not interested in it, or it would have already done so long time ago via the EU: the people of Switzerland have instructed their government via referendum to carefully carve this all important economic aspect out of the 40 something agreements their country holds with the EU to effectively replicate the EFTA-EU deal to which they were supposed to become partisan too as an EFTA member, yet minus the financial services.

It's going to be a very lonely world out there for the UK trade negotiators who are going to be allowed to focus on services only, that much is already a given! I fear they're going to log an awful lot of one off trips all around the world, only to end up flying back and forth to the Washington and Bern in vane for a very long time, after which they may end up going back to Brussels to 'expand' on by then signed UK-EU deal, once their ideological fetish has died. Of course, the price for including services will be FOM.
 
Arion640
Posts: 2833
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:03 pm

Richard28 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
I’m not sure where this whole NI border thing has come from that i have to apparently answer?



OK I'll try again:

How can you honour the Good Friday Agreement and avoid having a hard border with Northern Ireland, either:

a) on the Northern Ireland Border, or
b) in the Irish Sea

whilst avoiding extremely close harmonisation of rules and standards and being in a customs union with the EU.

Answer that and you'll get your Brexit, otherwise it is likely to be as soft as New Zealand Butter (imported through the customs union trade deal no less ;) )


I can’t see I’ve ever seen New Zealand butter on the shelf in my local supermarket. I don’t look for it though as I always buy British.

I’ll answer your points regarding Northern ireland. But why are you specifically asking me to answer Northern Ireland related questions when It’s something I’ve not even brought up?

Great to see Donald Trump having tea with our great Queen this afternoon. I hope the governments of Aus, Canada and NZ are happy that their queen is also having tea with POTUS.

EIPistolero, what do you think of your Queen having tea with Donald trump?
1973-2020
 
UltimoTiger777
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:19 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Arion640 wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

So instead i’ll take a different approach and I’ll just enjoy myself by sharing all those fantastic news articles you all should read.


And you should go read this:

http://peterjnorth.blogspot.com/2018/07 ... om-no.html


Not a verified news site so i’m not really a fan.


You do know Peter and his Dad are both long term Eurosceptics who have campaigned on these issues for a long time? Ever thought they might know what they're talking about?
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1858
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:44 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Richard28 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
I’m not sure where this whole NI border thing has come from that i have to apparently answer?



OK I'll try again:

How can you honour the Good Friday Agreement and avoid having a hard border with Northern Ireland, either:

a) on the Northern Ireland Border, or
b) in the Irish Sea

whilst avoiding extremely close harmonisation of rules and standards and being in a customs union with the EU.

Answer that and you'll get your Brexit, otherwise it is likely to be as soft as New Zealand Butter (imported through the customs union trade deal no less ;) )


I can’t see I’ve ever seen New Zealand butter on the shelf in my local supermarket. I don’t look for it though as I always buy British.

I’ll answer your points regarding Northern ireland. But why are you specifically asking me to answer Northern Ireland related questions when It’s something I’ve not even brought up?

Great to see Donald Trump having tea with our great Queen this afternoon. I hope the governments of Aus, Canada and NZ are happy that their queen is also having tea with POTUS.

EIPistolero, what do you think of your Queen having tea with Donald trump?


I can't say I've given it any thought. Should I have?

He's already been to Canada, y'know. Our relationship with the US is more mature than yours - Presidential visits are old hat around here.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1858
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:49 pm

par13del wrote:
Well if you go back and read all the threads, it does sound as if the UK will have no trade if they are not in the Single Market, Customs Union and on and on it goes, hence my question about how trade is conducted between the EU and third countries, which the UK would be if they do have Brexit.

I assumed that the discourse here would be above the Project Fear mantra since there are no voters to be won over.


Did I say that? Or do you want me to answer for others.

Either way, cite examples. I'm not convinced anyone made those claims.
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2751
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:13 pm

Arion640 wrote:
I’ll answer your points regarding Northern Ireland


See my previous post for reasons, quite clear.

Look forward to your answer.
 
Arion640
Posts: 2833
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:28 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Richard28 wrote:


OK I'll try again:

How can you honour the Good Friday Agreement and avoid having a hard border with Northern Ireland, either:

a) on the Northern Ireland Border, or
b) in the Irish Sea

whilst avoiding extremely close harmonisation of rules and standards and being in a customs union with the EU.

Answer that and you'll get your Brexit, otherwise it is likely to be as soft as New Zealand Butter (imported through the customs union trade deal no less ;) )


I can’t see I’ve ever seen New Zealand butter on the shelf in my local supermarket. I don’t look for it though as I always buy British.

I’ll answer your points regarding Northern ireland. But why are you specifically asking me to answer Northern Ireland related questions when It’s something I’ve not even brought up?

Great to see Donald Trump having tea with our great Queen this afternoon. I hope the governments of Aus, Canada and NZ are happy that their queen is also having tea with POTUS.

EIPistolero, what do you think of your Queen having tea with Donald trump?


I can't say I've given it any thought. Should I have?

He's already been to Canada, y'know. Our relationship with the US is more mature than yours - Presidential visits are old hat around here.


Fair comment I suppose.

I just expected you to be anti trump and therefore, you wouldn’t want your Queen meeting him.
1973-2020
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12284
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:36 pm

Yes Richard28, when talking about trade deals, we have to consider what is and would be traded exactly. UK is strong in financial services. Do US financial institutions, banks, NYC stock market, Chicago market, etc., want more UK competition ?

The US would want to export agricultural products, but does it make sense to get them over an ocean instead of over the Chunnel ? Surely those goods would be more expensive, taxes or no taxes. Without even mentioning the quality of the food.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 18302
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:18 pm

Richard28 wrote:
The conversations and interviews with the US are all very ideological and hypothetical, nothing can happen for a long, long time (unless there is a hard brexit and no deal or transition in March 2019, in which case we are pretty screwed as an economy - so parliament should not let this happen).


My understanding is that the UK can negotiate and even sign trade deals during the transition period, but they cannot come into effect until the end of the transition.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Arion640
Posts: 2833
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:21 pm

scbriml wrote:
Richard28 wrote:
The conversations and interviews with the US are all very ideological and hypothetical, nothing can happen for a long, long time (unless there is a hard brexit and no deal or transition in March 2019, in which case we are pretty screwed as an economy - so parliament should not let this happen).


My understanding is that the UK can negotiate and even sign trade deals during the transition period, but they cannot come into effect until the end of the transition.


Correct.
1973-2020
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9765
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:47 pm

scbriml wrote:
My understanding is that the UK can negotiate and even sign trade deals during the transition period, but they cannot come into effect until the end of the transition.

Is this with the current proposal or the old?
The closer to the EU with customs and SM the less likely such deals become as the EU would have to vet them ensure its market integrity is not violated, I can't believe they will leave that maintenance up to the UK.

Where I am lost on the new plan is the services especially those dominant in London, if there are no rules now between the EU and third countries why is someone in the UK coming up with proposal to align to what the EU presently does not have.
Clarity is not at the top of the to do list in this latest plan.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14572
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:44 pm

There is no doubt that the Brexit process is a hot mess that seems to have no real easy resolution. Clearly those that supported it expected it to chase back those from Eastern European EU member countries so those jobs will go back to UK nationals, make it impossible for non-EU persons to migrate into the UK (especially from the Islamic world and Black persons from Africa), not have to conform to some EU rules that take away their national sovereignty as well their taxes bailing out other and poorer EU countries like Greece. The Brexit vote was a stupid one by the leaders at the time, especially affected in its win with the surge of ME migrants into other parts of the EU and fears of entry into the UK.
The UK has never been a full, 100 % member of the EU. They retained their own currency, the Pound. They never accepted agreements on borders (except as to NI and Rep. of Ireland) as no National ID card so UK citizens need a passport to go to EU countries. They want to keep all the advantages to them as to export trade but limit EU product imports to promote and protect jobs. As I previously noted, many UK citizens don't want to subsides the economically poorer and corrupt EU members, especially when cuts in NHS, police and other government services.
The only predictions I have of how Brexit will work out or if a reversal of it is already happening - terrible politics, a lot of muddling around, wasted money and energy and stalemates, damage to the UK's economy, when decisive actions are needed.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 918
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:06 am

ltbewr wrote:
Clearly those that supported it expected it to chase back those from Eastern European EU member countries so those jobs will go back to UK nationals, make it impossible for non-EU persons to migrate into the UK (especially from the Islamic world and Black persons from Africa).


Can your source evidence please that all those that supported and voted for Brexit was on the basis of race?

Although I do accept that uncontrolled EU migration has had a detrimental affect on a number of professions in the UK and would no doubt have affected peoples vote.

That said, non EU migration is particularly difficult and I cannot see how this relevant to the decision to vote to leave the EU.
 
bananaboy
Posts: 1644
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:58 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:37 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
Although I do accept that uncontrolled EU migration has had a detrimental affect on a number of professions in the UK and would no doubt have affected peoples vote.



I'd also be keen to see some evidence for this..in what way has it been detrimental and to which industries?

I'm genuinely interested as when I've looked for "EU migration wage suppression" all I find are studies which suggest that impact (at least on wages) has been minimal and the greatest impact on wages from increased migration would be on those who were migrants as the skill sets / training / education would likely be similar.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigr ... migration/

Research from University College London finds that an inflow of immigrants the size of 1% of the UK-born population leads to a 0.6% decline in the wages of the 5% lowest paid workers and to an increase in the wages of higher paid workers.


Mark
All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 918
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:42 am

bananaboy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Although I do accept that uncontrolled EU migration has had a detrimental affect on a number of professions in the UK and would no doubt have affected peoples vote.



I'd also be keen to see some evidence for this..in what way has it been detrimental and to which industries?

I'm genuinely interested as when I've looked for "EU migration wage suppression" all I find are studies which suggest that impact (at least on wages) has been minimal and the greatest impact on wages from increased migration would be on those who were migrants as the skill sets / training / education would likely be similar.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigr ... migration/

Research from University College London finds that an inflow of immigrants the size of 1% of the UK-born population leads to a 0.6% decline in the wages of the 5% lowest paid workers and to an increase in the wages of higher paid workers.


Mark


Construction for a start. Labourers and bricklayers were on a lot more money before the Poles etc would do the job for far less.

Hospitality. Outside London and South East there are many deprived areas of the country where indigneous people have problems finding work owing to EU migration.
 
bananaboy
Posts: 1644
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:58 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:59 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
bananaboy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Although I do accept that uncontrolled EU migration has had a detrimental affect on a number of professions in the UK and would no doubt have affected peoples vote.



I'd also be keen to see some evidence for this..in what way has it been detrimental and to which industries?

I'm genuinely interested as when I've looked for "EU migration wage suppression" all I find are studies which suggest that impact (at least on wages) has been minimal and the greatest impact on wages from increased migration would be on those who were migrants as the skill sets / training / education would likely be similar.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigr ... migration/

Research from University College London finds that an inflow of immigrants the size of 1% of the UK-born population leads to a 0.6% decline in the wages of the 5% lowest paid workers and to an increase in the wages of higher paid workers.


Mark


Construction for a start. Labourers and bricklayers were on a lot more money before the Poles etc would do the job for far less.

Hospitality. Outside London and South East there are many deprived areas of the country where indigneous people have problems finding work owing to EU migration.


Ah, ok thanks.

Are you able to provide any links to studies on this or is this anecdotal?

Mark
All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
 
User avatar
FabDiva
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:42 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:00 am

Donald Trump told Theresa May she should sue the EU rather than negotiate, she has told the BBC.

The US president said on Friday at a joint press conference that he had given her a suggestion but she had found it too "brutal".

Asked by the BBC's Andrew Marr what it was he had said, she replied: "He told me I should sue the EU - not go into negotiations."

She defended her blueprint for Brexit and urged her critics to back it.

PM warns party not to put Brexit at risk
Why the EU is silent on May's Brexit plan
She said it would allow the UK to strike trade deals with other nations, end free movement of people and the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice.

A White Paper published on Thursday fleshed out details of her plan, which advocates close links with the EU on trade in goods, but not services.

Before the paper was published, Brexit Secretary David Davis and Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson resigned, saying it would not deliver the Brexit people voted for in the 2016 EU referendum.

Talking about the president's advice on how to handle the EU, Mrs May said: "Interestingly, what the president also said at that press conference was 'don't walk away'.

"Don't walk away from those negotiations because then you'll be stuck. So I want us to be able to sit down to negotiate the best deal for Britain."

Mrs May urged people to "keep their eye on the prize" of Brexit - and said her plan was the only workable way to deliver it.

Her message comes ahead of crucial Commons votes on trade and customs policy in the coming week.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44838028
 
LJ
Posts: 4992
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:53 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
bananaboy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Although I do accept that uncontrolled EU migration has had a detrimental affect on a number of professions in the UK and would no doubt have affected peoples vote.



I'd also be keen to see some evidence for this..in what way has it been detrimental and to which industries?

I'm genuinely interested as when I've looked for "EU migration wage suppression" all I find are studies which suggest that impact (at least on wages) has been minimal and the greatest impact on wages from increased migration would be on those who were migrants as the skill sets / training / education would likely be similar.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigr ... migration/

Research from University College London finds that an inflow of immigrants the size of 1% of the UK-born population leads to a 0.6% decline in the wages of the 5% lowest paid workers and to an increase in the wages of higher paid workers.


Mark


Construction for a start. Labourers and bricklayers were on a lot more money before the Poles etc would do the job for far less.

Hospitality. Outside London and South East there are many deprived areas of the country where indigneous people have problems finding work owing to EU migration.


However, as explained before in this thread, it was the UK who decided that unlimited Eastern European people were allowed in the UK to work (where other EU countries limited the number of Bulgarians and Romanins). Thus blaming the EU is incorrect. Moreover, it was the UK who wanted these countries in the UK, unlike countries like Germany.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 1348
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:34 am

I bet trump did not realize that if the UK tries to sue the EU it will have to be before the ECJ. If he knows about the ECJ existence , which I doubt :)
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
LJ
Posts: 4992
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:32 pm

Olddog wrote:
I bet trump did not realize that if the UK tries to sue the EU it will have to be before the ECJ. If he knows about the ECJ existence , which I doubt :)


Maybe the bigger question is for what can the UK sue the EU? I'm very interested which law te EU has broken.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 918
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:48 pm

LJ wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
bananaboy wrote:

I'd also be keen to see some evidence for this..in what way has it been detrimental and to which industries?

I'm genuinely interested as when I've looked for "EU migration wage suppression" all I find are studies which suggest that impact (at least on wages) has been minimal and the greatest impact on wages from increased migration would be on those who were migrants as the skill sets / training / education would likely be similar.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigr ... migration/



Mark


Construction for a start. Labourers and bricklayers were on a lot more money before the Poles etc would do the job for far less.

Hospitality. Outside London and South East there are many deprived areas of the country where indigneous people have problems finding work owing to EU migration.


However, as explained before in this thread, it was the UK who decided that unlimited Eastern European people were allowed in the UK to work (where other EU countries limited the number of Bulgarians and Romanins). Thus blaming the EU is incorrect. Moreover, it was the UK who wanted these countries in the UK, unlike countries like Germany.


I am not blaming the EU. You are quite right.

Just reflecting on some reasons why people may have voted leave. Uncontrolled EU migration will no doubt be up there.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 18302
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:14 pm

LJ wrote:
Maybe the bigger question is for what can the UK sue the EU? I'm very interested which law te EU has broken.


Olddog wrote:
I bet trump did not realize that if the UK tries to sue the EU it will have to be before the ECJ. If he knows about the ECJ existence , which I doubt :)


Sounds like Trump's business model all over. If in doubt, sue. My lawyers are bigger than yours. :banghead:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2751
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:44 pm

bananaboy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
bananaboy wrote:

I'd also be keen to see some evidence for this..in what way has it been detrimental and to which industries?

I'm genuinely interested as when I've looked for "EU migration wage suppression" all I find are studies which suggest that impact (at least on wages) has been minimal and the greatest impact on wages from increased migration would be on those who were migrants as the skill sets / training / education would likely be similar.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigr ... migration/



Mark


Construction for a start. Labourers and bricklayers were on a lot more money before the Poles etc would do the job for far less.

Hospitality. Outside London and South East there are many deprived areas of the country where indigneous people have problems finding work owing to EU migration.


Ah, ok thanks.

Are you able to provide any links to studies on this or is this anecdotal?

Mark


would be good to see evidence on this.

I remember a channel 4 documentary on a recruitment agency who had problems post brexit getting staff to apply for vacancies (through non UK citizens leaving UK), and even went as far as offering free beer to get UK candidates to apply - but still no luck!

it would seem not to be a case of EU citizens talking UK jobs, more like UK citizens not being bothered to take these jobs and others stepping into to take on the opportunity (and help British business)
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2751
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:46 pm

Richard28 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
I’ll answer your points regarding Northern Ireland


See my previous post for reasons, quite clear.

Look forward to your answer.



Not hear back form you on this yet? - looking forward to hearing from you soon Arion640,
 
olle
Posts: 1516
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:56 pm

The poöitical situation in NI seems to get worse faster then anyone could imagine.

The main reason for EU sitizens to not come to UK is that UK salaries is now 20% lower; salaries in countries like Poland is today much higher then a few years ago combined that now you need to plan your stay in UK not as a life choice bits temp solution.

I imagine that the presentation of UK racism does not help either.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 1857
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:19 pm

Maybe BREXIT will never happen. Politicians will just wiggle around and make empty promises to their constituents and hope to survive until the next election. Then they can retire with a fat cat pension and leave the mess to the next generation.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aaron747, intrepidflyer, tommy1808, TWA772LR and 42 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos