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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun May 13, 2018 10:07 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
sevenair wrote:
We're getting our country back. Taking back control and getting our independence.


But seriously man, what does that mean?


Didn't Indonesia break away from the dutch empire?


Yes, they did and good for them. What has that could to do with anything?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun May 13, 2018 10:59 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Didn't Indonesia break away from the dutch empire?


Bizarre comparison.

- Indonesia didn't join the Dutch empire voluntarily through a referendum. It was subjugated by force.

- Indonesia was never given an exit mechanism a la article 50.

- Dutch rule of Indonesia (like British rule in India) did not abide by international human rights - or any human rights conventions. Can you sincerely say that about the EU?

- Indonesia did not have any degree of self-rule. Nothing even remotely comparable to the UK in the EU.

- There were/are no imperial EU troops wreaking havoc on "inferior" races in the UK.

Let's not conflate EU membership with colonialism. I know the rose tinted nostalgia for empire is strong with Brexiteers, but unlike the EU, which is predicated on human rights and equality amongst other things, Dutch (or U.K.) colonialism was based on outright racism and economic exploitation. That Britain or the Netherlands managed to create a legal and moral framework to justify what we today consider pathetic behaviour does not make their respective empires legal entities that countries "broke away" from. More like armed bandits who stormed and looted a house till they were eventually kicked out.

You may not see it that way. Negotiators from former colonies do. Which is why you're best off dropping these types of silly comparison. Those former colonies do not take kindly to the notion that Brexit is in anyway comparable to what they were subjected to.

On the other hand, if EU troops massacre unarmed civilians (including women and children) like that great British hero, General Dyer, the former colonies will rally around the U.K. pretty fast. Just can't see that happening though. That was British colonial thinking. The EU isn't like that.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 6:06 am

Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

But seriously man, what does that mean?


Didn't Indonesia break away from the dutch empire?


Yes, they did and good for them. What has that could to do with anything?


They took back control.
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Brexit - It’s time to take back control
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 6:07 am

ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Didn't Indonesia break away from the dutch empire?


Bizarre comparison.

- Indonesia didn't join the Dutch empire voluntarily through a referendum. It was subjugated by force.

- Indonesia was never given an exit mechanism a la article 50.

- Dutch rule of Indonesia (like British rule in India) did not abide by international human rights - or any human rights conventions. Can you sincerely say that about the EU?

- Indonesia did not have any degree of self-rule. Nothing even remotely comparable to the UK in the EU.

- There were/are no imperial EU troops wreaking havoc on "inferior" races in the UK.

Let's not conflate EU membership with colonialism. I know the rose tinted nostalgia for empire is strong with Brexiteers, but unlike the EU, which is predicated on human rights and equality amongst other things, Dutch (or U.K.) colonialism was based on outright racism and economic exploitation. That Britain or the Netherlands managed to create a legal and moral framework to justify what we today consider pathetic behaviour does not make their respective empires legal entities that countries "broke away" from. More like armed bandits who stormed and looted a house till they were eventually kicked out.

You may not see it that way. Negotiators from former colonies do. Which is why you're best off dropping these types of silly comparison. Those former colonies do not take kindly to the notion that Brexit is in anyway comparable to what they were subjected to.

On the other hand, if EU troops massacre unarmed civilians (including women and children) like that great British hero, General Dyer, the former colonies will rally around the U.K. pretty fast. Just can't see that happening though. That was British colonial thinking. The EU isn't like that.


They still took back control and gained independence.
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tommy1808
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 6:08 am

Arion640 wrote:
They still took back control and gained independence.


Yes, they did. Because they could, as they didn´t have it.

The simple fact that the UK can trigger article 50 proofs that the UK has full independence to do whatever they want, including going Brexit and giving up a lot of control in the process.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 6:22 am

Arion640 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Didn't Indonesia break away from the dutch empire?


Bizarre comparison.

- Indonesia didn't join the Dutch empire voluntarily through a referendum. It was subjugated by force.

- Indonesia was never given an exit mechanism a la article 50.

- Dutch rule of Indonesia (like British rule in India) did not abide by international human rights - or any human rights conventions. Can you sincerely say that about the EU?

- Indonesia did not have any degree of self-rule. Nothing even remotely comparable to the UK in the EU.

- There were/are no imperial EU troops wreaking havoc on "inferior" races in the UK.

Let's not conflate EU membership with colonialism. I know the rose tinted nostalgia for empire is strong with Brexiteers, but unlike the EU, which is predicated on human rights and equality amongst other things, Dutch (or U.K.) colonialism was based on outright racism and economic exploitation. That Britain or the Netherlands managed to create a legal and moral framework to justify what we today consider pathetic behaviour does not make their respective empires legal entities that countries "broke away" from. More like armed bandits who stormed and looted a house till they were eventually kicked out.

You may not see it that way. Negotiators from former colonies do. Which is why you're best off dropping these types of silly comparison. Those former colonies do not take kindly to the notion that Brexit is in anyway comparable to what they were subjected to.

On the other hand, if EU troops massacre unarmed civilians (including women and children) like that great British hero, General Dyer, the former colonies will rally around the U.K. pretty fast. Just can't see that happening though. That was British colonial thinking. The EU isn't like that.


They still took back control and gained independence.


Oh alright. They took control because the occupying forces of Japan made a big deal about it why the Dutch were still in Indonesia. So the nationalistic feelings were there, Japanese harvest it and they started a war of independence thereafter.

I noticed you didn't answer the question: what does it mean for the UK to take back control.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 6:37 am

Dutchy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Bizarre comparison.

- Indonesia didn't join the Dutch empire voluntarily through a referendum. It was subjugated by force.

- Indonesia was never given an exit mechanism a la article 50.

- Dutch rule of Indonesia (like British rule in India) did not abide by international human rights - or any human rights conventions. Can you sincerely say that about the EU?

- Indonesia did not have any degree of self-rule. Nothing even remotely comparable to the UK in the EU.

- There were/are no imperial EU troops wreaking havoc on "inferior" races in the UK.

Let's not conflate EU membership with colonialism. I know the rose tinted nostalgia for empire is strong with Brexiteers, but unlike the EU, which is predicated on human rights and equality amongst other things, Dutch (or U.K.) colonialism was based on outright racism and economic exploitation. That Britain or the Netherlands managed to create a legal and moral framework to justify what we today consider pathetic behaviour does not make their respective empires legal entities that countries "broke away" from. More like armed bandits who stormed and looted a house till they were eventually kicked out.

You may not see it that way. Negotiators from former colonies do. Which is why you're best off dropping these types of silly comparison. Those former colonies do not take kindly to the notion that Brexit is in anyway comparable to what they were subjected to.

On the other hand, if EU troops massacre unarmed civilians (including women and children) like that great British hero, General Dyer, the former colonies will rally around the U.K. pretty fast. Just can't see that happening though. That was British colonial thinking. The EU isn't like that.


They still took back control and gained independence.


Oh alright. They took control because the occupying forces of Japan made a big deal about it why the Dutch were still in Indonesia. So the nationalistic feelings were there, Japanese harvest it and they started a war of independence thereafter.

I noticed you didn't answer the question: what does it mean for the UK to take back control.


I tried to use an example to show you, one involving your own country.
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tommy1808
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 6:51 am

Arion640 wrote:
I tried to use an example to show you, one involving your own country.


and you failed, since you chose to pick a country that wasn´t sovereign before.

So, what control exactly will the UK take back in a possible Brexit (you know, no border between the Irelands, no access to the common market without all pillars).

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 7:00 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
I tried to use an example to show you, one involving your own country.


and you failed, since you chose to pick a country that wasn´t sovereign before.

So, what control exactly will the UK take back in a possible Brexit (you know, no border between the Irelands, no access to the common market without all pillars).

best regards
Thomas


Neither is the UK, as the EU dictates the laws. Therefore Brexit must bring full control back to the UK.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 7:00 am

But you may want to consider carefully your example and see how much stupid it is ?
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 7:33 am

seahawk wrote:
Neither is the UK, as the EU dictates the laws. Therefore Brexit must bring full control back to the UK.


No, that is fundamentally incorrect.

Each of the 28 EU countries appoints a commissioner which puts together new largislation for consideration to the European Parliament which consists of MEPs, all of whom are democratically elected.

In addition to this, each EU state has the power of veto, by its own democratically elected government.

The EU currently dictates nothing.... but it gets worse....

After Brexit, in order to secure trade deals, it is very possible that we will have to follow some of those rules (indeed most are scheduled to be copied across to our statute book) or in future follow legislation for other territories, e.g. the USA, but this time without any democratically elected officials, veto, or say whatsoever.

This whole ‘taking back control’ is, to coin a phrase, fake news.
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 7:42 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
I tried to use an example to show you, one involving your own country.


and you failed, since you chose to pick a country that wasn´t sovereign before.

So, what control exactly will the UK take back in a possible Brexit (you know, no border between the Irelands, no access to the common market without all pillars).

best regards
Thomas


Not the point. I've been trying to give a definition of independence and how an "entity" shall we call it, in the case of Indonesia became independent of the dutch empire.
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 7:54 am

Arion640 wrote:

Not the point. I've been trying to give a definition of independence and how an "entity" shall we call it, in the case of Indonesia became independent of the dutch empire.


Indonesia became independent through bloody conflict, having been ruled over not through its choosing.

The UK, joined the EU voluntarily on leaving has simply enacted a piece of legislation (Article 50) that it entered into on joining.

How you can conflate these two is quite beyond my comprehension
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 7:58 am

Both countries have seen their people willing to suffer any burden for freedom.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 8:03 am

Indeed, some are comparing splitting from a Union to independence from an Empire; it's like comparing a man filing for divorce from his wife to a serf fighting to end his bondage to his lord....
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 8:30 am

Brexit meets the twilight zone!

Image

The UK will host a conference to the Balkan states to encourage them to join the EU, on the basis that it will dleiver "security, stability and prosperity".

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 47111.html

You could not make this stuff up!
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 8:35 am

Richard28 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Not the point. I've been trying to give a definition of independence and how an "entity" shall we call it, in the case of Indonesia became independent of the dutch empire.


Indonesia became independent through bloody conflict, having been ruled over not through its choosing.

The UK, joined the EU voluntarily on leaving has simply enacted a piece of legislation (Article 50) that it entered into on joining.

How you can conflate these two is quite beyond my comprehension


Still went independent though! And took back control.
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Olddog
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 8:55 am

So you are still comparing a 1945 indonesia with a 2016 UK ?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 8:55 am

They can sell the fish to any other country in the World. #GoingGlobal #DespiteBrexit.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 8:56 am

The Falkland Islands meantime are going to be devastated by leaving the Single Market

Image

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 47696.html

The fishing industry there makes up 41% of the Falklands economy and is reliant on the single market to sell fish back to the EU (94% of their trade).

Leaving the EEA would put at risk the current profitability of their fishing industry and would impact both their wider economy and government revenue.

Another solid reason for considering the EFTA/EEA route out of the EU (or abandoning Brexit altogether of course)
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 9:17 am

seahawk wrote:
They can sell the fish to any other country in the World. #GoingGlobal #DespiteBrexit.


Did you even read the article seahawk? (judging by the speed of your reply I guess not)

Reverting to WTO rules would cause a £9m hit to Falkland Island revenue - that is equivalent to £2,600 per head of population per annum.

The islands’ fishing association says cultivating other markets for squid (their main catch) would be “difficult”, especially in Asia, where “demand is highest but competition is strong, and both political and tariff barriers exist”.

In the event of a “no deal” Brexit the islanders say they would be left with no choice but to seek support from the British state to prop up their fishing industry.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 10:24 am

Richard28 wrote:
Brexit meets the twilight zone!

Image

The UK will host a conference to the Balkan states to encourage them to join the EU, on the basis that it will dleiver "security, stability and prosperity".

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 47111.html

You could not make this stuff up!


Someone should tell whoever made that map that Croatia has been in the EU for a while now.

But that's exactly the kind of faux pas BoJo would make, so props for finding it.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 10:49 am

Richard28 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
They can sell the fish to any other country in the World. #GoingGlobal #DespiteBrexit.


Did you even read the article seahawk? (judging by the speed of your reply I guess not)

Reverting to WTO rules would cause a £9m hit to Falkland Island revenue - that is equivalent to £2,600 per head of population per annum.

The islands’ fishing association says cultivating other markets for squid (their main catch) would be “difficult”, especially in Asia, where “demand is highest but competition is strong, and both political and tariff barriers exist”.

In the event of a “no deal” Brexit the islanders say they would be left with no choice but to seek support from the British state to prop up their fishing industry.


Do you think that the Brexiteers will not have foreseen this and will not have worked out trade deals in the booming Asian fishery market already, that will be signed 1 minute after the UK is finally free again?
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 11:50 am

seahawk wrote:
Do you think that the Brexiteers will not have foreseen this and will not have worked out trade deals in the booming Asian fishery market already, that will be signed 1 minute after the UK is finally free again?


No I don't have much confidence in this at all. Trade deals have to work for both parties, we don't just get a trade deal because it works for us - it has to cut both ways, so these things are complicated and take time. As such a longer transition will likely be needed to lessen the impact on global trade on leaving.

Various countries have said they will not even enter into negotiations with us until the EU position is sorted, so Liam Fox's statement that these deals will be “the easiest in human history” is not looking to be true.

You then consider the trade deals in place and progressing that we lose on leaving the Customs Union and need to be re-negotiated, from scratch, as a smaller trading partner (so less influence) and the whole trade argument is moot to say the least.

Image

Staying in the Customs Union and Single Market is a positive for trade compared to hard Brexit / WTO rules both in the UK mainland and in the Falkland Islands.
 
mmo
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 2:09 pm

seahawk wrote:
Do you think that the Brexiteers will not have foreseen this and will not have worked out trade deals in the booming Asian fishery market already, that will be signed 1 minute after the UK is finally free again?


Off course, you do realize the UK is still in the EU and as such, they can't negotiate any trade deals until they are out of the EU.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 2:41 pm

Arion640 wrote:

Not the point. I've been trying to give a definition of independence and how an "entity" shall we call it, in the case of Indonesia became independent of the dutch empire.


Then you haven't succeeded.

By framing independence as the act of one entity "breaking away" from another entity, your "definition" of independence is intrinsically linked to the nature of the relationship between the two entities.

As the relationship between Indonesia and the Dutch Empire is not comparable to the relationship between the UK and the EU, it stands to reason that whatever "definition" of independence you've extrapolated from Indonesia leaving the Dutch empire, doesn't apply to Brexit. It's a great soundbite. But as is often the case with Brexit arguments, it is poorly reasoned (if at all) and ultimately meaningless.

Regardless, these Brexit notions of independence ignore the reality that multiple supranational regimes make true "independence" unachievable. WTO rules will replace EU trade rules. Depending on which way the UK goes, control over regulatory standards will be ceded to the US/NAFTA/TPP/EU. Similarly, control over immigration will be diminished by trade-related concessions. And, of course, the right to trade whatever with whomever will never, ever exist.

That's not a bad thing. Few here would celebrate mass nation-state withdrawals from the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty or the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty as a laudable exercise of "independence" or "taking back control", even though those actions would unquestionably qualify as both. The reality is that advanced nations strive for a rules-based system, and rules inevitably impede on some freedoms while guaranteeing others. Brexit won't change that.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 2:49 pm

seahawk wrote:
Both countries have seen their people willing to suffer any burden for freedom.


Really? How many British citizens are willing to die for Brexit?

That they don't even to consider that type of "burden" reveals how stupid the comparison is.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 3:20 pm

mmo wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Do you think that the Brexiteers will not have foreseen this and will not have worked out trade deals in the booming Asian fishery market already, that will be signed 1 minute after the UK is finally free again?


Off course, you do realize the UK is still in the EU and as such, they can't negotiate any trade deals until they are out of the EU.


So the faster the UK is out, the better for the UK.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 3:28 pm

seahawk wrote:
So the faster the UK is out, the better for the UK.


So the faster the UK is out, the better for the EU.
 
sevenair
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 3:34 pm

What is it you remain ultras say about us beLeavers wanting to 'send people home'? Whilst you lot are classing pizza and kebab shop burglaries as 'hate crimes' #becauseofbrexit, this is happening:

Image
Taking back control.
 
mmo
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 3:49 pm

seahawk wrote:

So the faster the UK is out, the better for the UK.


You sure are correct. The line of countries lining up to make deals with the UK is just getting longer and longer........
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 3:52 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
or the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty as a laudable exercise of "independence" or "taking back control", .


We don't see Brexiteers complaining about the sactions against North Korea, do we? After all, they did nothing else than "taking back control" by deciding they need nukes for their national security, quit the NPT, which specifically names that as a reason to withdraw, and started working on nukes.

I guess "taking back control" is only good if you are the one doing it, but no one else should be able to.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 4:06 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
or the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty as a laudable exercise of "independence" or "taking back control", .


We don't see Brexiteers complaining about the sactions against North Korea, do we? After all, they did nothing else than "taking back control" by deciding they need nukes for their national security, quit the NPT, which specifically names that as a reason to withdraw, and started working on nukes.

I guess "taking back control" is only good if you are the one doing it, but no one else should be able to.

Best regards
Thomas


Completely different context and you know it. A dictator talking about incinerating half of the United States compared to a diplomatic vote to leave a political union.

I can see you're very bitter because a country has decided the leave the precious EU.
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Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 4:07 pm

Olddog wrote:
seahawk wrote:
So the faster the UK is out, the better for the UK.


So the faster the UK is out, the better for the EU.


Not quite. The UK is the 2nd biggest EU contributor.
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Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 4:09 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Not the point. I've been trying to give a definition of independence and how an "entity" shall we call it, in the case of Indonesia became independent of the dutch empire.


Then you haven't succeeded.

By framing independence as the act of one entity "breaking away" from another entity, your "definition" of independence is intrinsically linked to the nature of the relationship between the two entities.

As the relationship between Indonesia and the Dutch Empire is not comparable to the relationship between the UK and the EU, it stands to reason that whatever "definition" of independence you've extrapolated from Indonesia leaving the Dutch empire, doesn't apply to Brexit. It's a great soundbite. But as is often the case with Brexit arguments, it is poorly reasoned (if at all) and ultimately meaningless.

Regardless, these Brexit notions of independence ignore the reality that multiple supranational regimes make true "independence" unachievable. WTO rules will replace EU trade rules. Depending on which way the UK goes, control over regulatory standards will be ceded to the US/NAFTA/TPP/EU. Similarly, control over immigration will be diminished by trade-related concessions. And, of course, the right to trade whatever with whomever will never, ever exist.

That's not a bad thing. Few here would celebrate mass nation-state withdrawals from the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty or the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty as a laudable exercise of "independence" or "taking back control", even though those actions would unquestionably qualify as both. The reality is that advanced nations strive for a rules-based system, and rules inevitably impede on some freedoms while guaranteeing others. Brexit won't change that.


Thank you. I will sleep much better this evening.
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tommy1808
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 4:14 pm

mmo wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Do you think that the Brexiteers will not have foreseen this and will not have worked out trade deals in the booming Asian fishery market already, that will be signed 1 minute after the UK is finally free again?


Off course, you do realize the UK is still in the EU and as such, they can't negotiate any trade deals until they are out of the EU.


Also: who will negotiate them? All UK citizens with experience in the field work for the EU, and they just make up a fraction of the EU negotiating staff. Which by the way saves a lot of money for the members, that never shows up in any comparisons. So even if they all jumped ship right now, the UK would probably still be at least an order of magnitude, maybe even two, below the manpower needed to redo 40 years of joint negotiations by the EU in two years.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 4:20 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Completely different context and you know it.


So, taking back control is only ok when you approve of the context.
The NPT doesn't have a sanity clause. Everyone signed and ratified it. It is the law. If you want to take the right back to be outraged about a crazy dictator threatening to nuke ya, quit the NPT first or don't pretend you have a consistent position.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Arion640
Posts: 1828
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 4:22 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Completely different context and you know it.


So, taking back control is only ok when you approve of the context.
The NPT doesn't have a sanity clause. Everyone signed and ratified it. It is the law. If you want to take the right back to be outraged about a crazy dictator threatening to nuke ya, quit the NPT first or don't pretend you have a consistent position.

Best regards
Thomas


Ok so I imagiene you'd approve of a colony becoming free of the British, Dutch or French empire, but you'd have a problem when Britain wants to leave the EU? You clearly don't approve of that context.
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Brexit - It’s time to take back control
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1631
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 4:24 pm

Arion640 wrote:

Completely different context and you know it. A dictator talking about incinerating half of the United States compared to a diplomatic vote to leave a political union.

I can see you're very bitter because a country has decided the leave the precious EU.


"Completely different context", says the guy who compared the EU to 19th century Imperialism. Can't make this stuff up.

NPT and CTBT are political conventions. As are most supranational agreements and treaties. They limit "control" and "independence" and all the other buzzwords. As does the Vienna Convention. Point is: Brexiteers don't seem to understand the concepts they claim they embrace. This is a relatively minor example. Take democracy - most Brexiteers don't understand that checks and balances are a fundamental tenet of democracy. It's really quite amazing how little these folk understand what they claim to support.

I don't doubt that Brexiteers will sleep well. Ignorance is indeed Bliss.
 
JJJ
Posts: 2965
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 4:36 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Olddog wrote:
seahawk wrote:
So the faster the UK is out, the better for the UK.


So the faster the UK is out, the better for the EU.


Not quite. The UK is the 2nd biggest EU contributor.


And will continue to do so until Jan 2021. We'll see what happens then because market access has a cost (ask the Norwegians about it, they pay more per capita than the UK).
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1631
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 4:37 pm

Arion640 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Completely different context and you know it.


So, taking back control is only ok when you approve of the context.
The NPT doesn't have a sanity clause. Everyone signed and ratified it. It is the law. If you want to take the right back to be outraged about a crazy dictator threatening to nuke ya, quit the NPT first or don't pretend you have a consistent position.

Best regards
Thomas


Ok so I imagiene you'd approve of a colony becoming free of the British, Dutch or French empire, but you'd have a problem when Britain wants to leave the EU? You clearly don't approve of that context.


The question is incoherent, but here's an answer anyway:

If the EU treated British citizens the way Britain treated Indians ("Dogs and Indians not allowed" and all that), every single person who currently sympathizes with the remain side would fully support Brexit.

But that's not the case, is it?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 4:40 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Ok so I imagiene you'd approve of a colony becoming free of the British, Dutch or French empire, but you'd have a problem when Britain wants to leave the EU? You clearly don't approve of that context.


Nah, I think it's stupid, I think the hard brexit mandate is imaginary due to the 3 options, two choices nature of the referendum, but of course you can leave for an imaginary increase of control, art. 50 is in the treaty for a reason. Just sad that it has so little details, but heck, no one, including the UK, seems to have expected anyone to ever be that self destructive when it was drafted.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Arion640
Posts: 1828
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 5:13 pm

JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Olddog wrote:

So the faster the UK is out, the better for the EU.


Not quite. The UK is the 2nd biggest EU contributor.


And will continue to do so until Jan 2021. We'll see what happens then because market access has a cost (ask the Norwegians about it, they pay more per capita than the UK).


I have said i'm more than happy to see the UK pay the EU to have access to the Market. But, what it's paying now is unsustainable. Do you see Canada as the EU's second biggest contributor?

That's it for me for this evening for Non Av. See you in the morning.
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Brexit - It’s time to take back control
 
JJJ
Posts: 2965
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 5:20 pm

Arion640 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Not quite. The UK is the 2nd biggest EU contributor.


And will continue to do so until Jan 2021. We'll see what happens then because market access has a cost (ask the Norwegians about it, they pay more per capita than the UK).


I have said i'm more than happy to see the UK pay the EU to have access to the Market. But, what it's paying now is unsustainable. Do you see Canada as the EU's second biggest contributor?


Canada doesn't have anywhere near the agreement the UK aspires. No services for starters.
 
LJ
Posts: 4548
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 6:44 pm

Arion640 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Not quite. The UK is the 2nd biggest EU contributor.


And will continue to do so until Jan 2021. We'll see what happens then because market access has a cost (ask the Norwegians about it, they pay more per capita than the UK).


I have said i'm more than happy to see the UK pay the EU to have access to the Market. But, what it's paying now is unsustainable..


Norwegians pay GBP 96 net per capita, the UK pays net GBP 96 per capita as well.

https://infacts.org/norwegians-pay-same-brits-eu-access/

Why would the EU give the UK a discount?
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2363
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 7:25 pm

Arion640 wrote:

I have said i'm more than happy to see the UK pay the EU to have access to the Market. But, what it's paying now is unsustainable.


Seriously? What amount would be sustainable in your eyes?

We currently pay 0.7% of tax take on the EU... that is less than overseas aid, less than housing and utilities, and less than culture. It is totally dwarfed by other government expenditure on things like defence and health.

For what we get back in terms of access to the single market it is peanuts in the scheme of things, and very much sustainable.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 2177
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon May 14, 2018 8:17 pm

Brexiters seem to be positioning themselves to shed any blame to the half-assed Brexit that may happen - it will all be the fault of the remainers - who, in my view, ought to just chuck the whole thing. As long as they are going to get the blame just remain.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
JJJ
Posts: 2965
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue May 15, 2018 8:06 am

And in other news, the UK follows their path to splendid isolation.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/0 ... -per-cent/

LinkedIn hiring data, captured in our monthly UK Workforce Reports, shows that the UK has gone from being a country that gains talent from the EU to one that loses talent to it. The change is significant. Over the last year alone, migration to the UK from the EU has fallen 26 per cent, while more people are leaving the UK for the EU than were previously.

(...)

Is Britain becoming more global and less EU centric?

To see the real impact of Brexit on the UK talent market and economy, we therefore have to look beyond the EU migration figures. Are we seeing evidence of businesses sourcing these missing skills from elsewhere? So far, the answer is no.

Rather than an increase in the number of professionals moving to the UK from non-EU countries, net migration to the UK from the rest of the world is also dropping. In fact, it’s down 20 per cent over the last year, almost as significant a reduction as migration from the EU. The UK remains a net importer of talent from non-EU countries, because the number of professionals leaving for these countries is still lower than the number arriving from them. However, it is importing talent at a significantly lower rate.


These are trends that will take a while to have an effect in economic terms, but are almost guaranteed to do so. This article speaks explicitly about skilled immigration, those who make more of an impact in economic terms.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8608
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue May 15, 2018 8:32 am

Richard28 wrote:
For what we get back in terms of access to the single market it is peanuts in the scheme of things, and very much sustainable.


Hence Boris Johnson called the EU Membership fee "peanuts". At least before he decided that bullying his school enemy is more important than his country.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
sevenair
Posts: 2652
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue May 15, 2018 10:05 am

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