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scbriml
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:06 am

LJ wrote:
If you've to pay GBP 10 for single entry in the UK (which is one of the proposals for EU nationals) then I would reckon you think twice about a weekend trip to London. Moreover, you cannot just "pay" the fee at the border, but you need to apply beforehand. How many people will "forget" this and AFIAK ETIAS will not provide an alternative whereby it can be arranged at departure. Maybe it will not influence people going to Spain or Greece (as there is no alternative where you've good weather in Winter/Summer), but there are alternatives to a weekend in London or Edinburgh.

As for proof, the tourism industry isn't very pleased with ETIAS. It points to ESTA where the US government used the funds from ESTA for US promotions in order to offset any negative impact from the implementation of ESTA. Unfortunately it's difficult to calculate any impact (especially when you introduce mitigating policies at the same time), but apparently the US government didn't think that ESTA would promote tourism to the US.


I would hope that any UK system would be completely reciprocal with the ETIAS in terms of cost and length of validity.

The only proof would be if there was a measurable drop in tourism after the introduction of ESTA. ESTA cost $14 and is valid for two years. Just about the only part of a trip to America that's cheaper than that is my morning coffee. The cost of ESTA is an insignificant addition to the overall cost of a trip to the US from Europe.
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LJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:21 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Ok. So if the EU wants to slap a fee on non eu citizena for visting that’s absolutely fine, but Britain suggests doing it (or someone on this thread seems to think we have) and we are called all these names. Do I hint an agenda being pushed here?


ETIAS is approved by the UK as well. Thus in essence, it's the UK itself which slaps a fee upon its citizens. As for the situation after Brexit, I don't care what the UK will do but will surprised if they don't implement similar policies. Quite understandable.

BTW it's in the leaked Home Office document on immigration. The amount of GBP 10 was suggested by a group of Tory MPs and is/was promoted by the Daily Mail. Do you really think that things like ETIAS aren't discussed in the talks between the UK and EU?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ng-interactive/2017/sep/05/post-brexit-immigration-10-key-points-from-the-home-office-document
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-5210139/EU-nationals-pay-10-post-Brexit-UK-visa-report-suggests.html
 
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zkojq
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:57 pm

Airbus's pre-Farnborough Media Briefing. Tom Enders' comments on the shitshow going on in Britain are interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzwEpB6kmhc

Arion640 wrote:
I’ve never understood all this stuff about flights stopping....it’s going to hurt KLM/Lufthansa/Air France badly as well as BA and Easyjet. EU bound flights for the US would also have to re route around UK airspace. It’s in the interest of the EU more than it is in the interest of Britian to do a deal on aviation.

So, tell me about how this might affect the routing of flights from Britain to Africa, Middle East, Central Asia and the Far East. You clearly didn't think that comment through before posting, especially since this isn't even about overflight rights.


Arion640 wrote:
It would be the end of KLM cityhopper for sure.

But BA CityFlyer will be just fine? :scratchchin:

sevenair wrote:
#itscominghome


I too look forwards to the English football team coming home from Russia after loosing to France.

Arion640 wrote:
No it’s not that attitude. It’s a fact.

Of course they can, which will cost them a hell of a lot of money. One of the airline groups is bleeding money...added costs of 2 hours extra flying time per return flight to the US will not help the situation.


:banghead: :banghead:

Another comment that wasn't thought out. How much longer are BA's flights to JNB/LOS/DXB/DEL/TLV going to be if they can't use EU airspace?

Arion640 wrote:
I see you still ignored severns point about Ukraine. It’s the same for some EU airlines, they need to overfly the UK to get to the US. Yet others on this thread come out with tripe saying “they could just fly around the UK”.

They could. Most Lufthansa services to the central and western US route straight over Iceland. Most SAS services to the eastern US avoid UK airspace altogether.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SAS ... /EKCH/KEWR

How is BA going to fly to JNB if mainland EU + Santa Maria Oceanic is closed to them?

Kestrel333 wrote:
I think it’s good that we are tied to EU regulations yet will no longer have a say on what those regulations are. Go Sovereignty!

Rule Britannia!
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:29 pm

Another warning, Phillips this time. They are planning for a hard Brexit and if this scenario becomes true, then they will close their factories in the UK. Currently, Phillips experiences problems from the volatility of the Pound.

In Dutch https://www.nu.nl/brexit/5353214/philip ... rexit.html
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:00 pm

scbriml wrote:
LJ wrote:
If you've to pay GBP 10 for single entry in the UK (which is one of the proposals for EU nationals) then I would reckon you think twice about a weekend trip to London. Moreover, you cannot just "pay" the fee at the border, but you need to apply beforehand. How many people will "forget" this and AFIAK ETIAS will not provide an alternative whereby it can be arranged at departure. Maybe it will not influence people going to Spain or Greece (as there is no alternative where you've good weather in Winter/Summer), but there are alternatives to a weekend in London or Edinburgh.

As for proof, the tourism industry isn't very pleased with ETIAS. It points to ESTA where the US government used the funds from ESTA for US promotions in order to offset any negative impact from the implementation of ESTA. Unfortunately it's difficult to calculate any impact (especially when you introduce mitigating policies at the same time), but apparently the US government didn't think that ESTA would promote tourism to the US.


I would hope that any UK system would be completely reciprocal with the ETIAS in terms of cost and length of validity.

The only proof would be if there was a measurable drop in tourism after the introduction of ESTA. ESTA cost $14 and is valid for two years. Just about the only part of a trip to America that's cheaper than that is my morning coffee. The cost of ESTA is an insignificant addition to the overall cost of a trip to the US from Europe.


True, I wouldn't cancel an US trip over 14$. Over the total invasion of my privacy, that's another story, however. I've never been to the US and will avoid it if I can (yes, I also avoid China).
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:00 pm

Aesma wrote:
Over the total invasion of my privacy, that's another story, however.


Which invasion of your privacy?

Is that the privacy you like to think you have? You have no privacy unless you go completely "off grid" and go live in the woods.
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Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:01 pm

Brexit Sec David Davis has resigned. A real shame but i’m not surprised, I thought we would see at least one resignation and he may not be the last.

I’ll put the odds on for Liam Fox to be replacement (Currently trade secretary and brexiteer).

Or we will see a leadership election coming in the weeks ahead. Jacob Rees Mogg is leading the back bench brexiteer movement and they want change now. If we do see this scenario David Davis could end up in the contest.
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:11 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Brexit Sec David Davis has resigned. A real shame but i’m not surprised, I thought we would see at least one resignation.

I’ll put the odds on for Liam Fox to be replacement (Currently trade secretary and brexiteer).

Or we will see a leadership election coming in the weeks ahead. Jacob Rees Mogg is leading the back bench brexiteer movement and they want change now.


And Brexit starts to fall apart before it's even begun.

JRM? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:15 pm

scbriml wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Brexit Sec David Davis has resigned. A real shame but i’m not surprised, I thought we would see at least one resignation.

I’ll put the odds on for Liam Fox to be replacement (Currently trade secretary and brexiteer).

Or we will see a leadership election coming in the weeks ahead. Jacob Rees Mogg is leading the back bench brexiteer movement and they want change now.


And Brexit starts to fall apart before it's even begun.

JRM? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


The only reason it’s falling apart is Theresa May tried to sell something to the country that wasn’t brexit.

Think of what you want about JRM, but I was only making an observation. I wasn’t suggesting he would be PM.
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:23 pm

Arion640 wrote:
The only reason it’s falling apart is Theresa May tried to sell something to the country that wasn’t brexit.


Maybe if all those wonderful Brexit cheerleaders actually had a clue how to make Brexit work before we voted, we wouldn't be in this mess. But they didn't then and they don't now. They have nothing but "taking back control" bluster and bullshit. :banghead:

Arion640 wrote:
Think of what you want about JRM, but I was only making an observation. I wasn’t suggesting he would be PM.


Oh, he'd be the perfect PM. If we were still living in 1818.
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Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:29 pm

scbriml wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
The only reason it’s falling apart is Theresa May tried to sell something to the country that wasn’t brexit.


Maybe if all those wonderful Brexit cheerleaders actually had a clue how to make Brexit work before we voted, we wouldn't be in this mess. But they didn't then and they don't now. They have nothing but "taking back control" bluster and bullshit. :banghead:

Arion640 wrote:
Think of what you want about JRM, but I was only making an observation. I wasn’t suggesting he would be PM.


Oh, he'd be the perfect PM. If we were still living in 1818.


The problem was Cameron and Osbourne were too arrogant remain would win. They called the vote and lost by over a million. Then buggered off and let others clear up the mess.

What should of happened was a brexit negotiated and the referendum should of been on the deal versus staying in.

Anyway we are where we are.
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par13del
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:46 am

The reality is that once the makeup of TM cabinet was put in place all true remainers or brexiters should have resigned or refused positions.
Brexit is the most crucial decision that was given to the people, whether we agree with the result of the vote or not, those who campaigned for it deserved to be at the helm of the project, not put in a 50/50 split led by someone who wants to remain.
If the cabinet was stacked with remainers or leavers the decision would have been made by now, hard or soft, a majority would have made a decision.
Two years later and still nothing, all because the deck was not stacked, let's see if Boris and Grove have the intestinal fortitude to follow suit and resign.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:15 am

scbriml wrote:

Oh, he'd be the perfect PM. If we were still living in 1818.


He wouldn't even be suited to 1818. Back then being the head of government required someone to actually be a statesmen of some kind. now we seem to put any idiot in the job.

The fact he's prepared to advocate a no deal Brexit should rule him out from having any position of responsibility.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:57 am

There is only one Brexit and that is the no deal Brexit, everything else is a slap in the face of the voters who wanted to leave the EU completely.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:24 am

Dutchy wrote:
Another warning, Phillips this time. They are planning for a hard Brexit and if this scenario becomes true, then they will close their factories in the UK. Currently, Phillips experiences problems from the volatility of the Pound.

In Dutch https://www.nu.nl/brexit/5353214/philip ... rexit.html


Link in English
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-07/philips-may-move-u-k-production-in-event-of-hard-brexit
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:54 am

Arion640 wrote:
Brexit Sec David Davis has resigned. A real shame but i’m not surprised, I thought we would see at least one resignation and he may not be the last.

I’ll put the odds on for Liam Fox to be replacement (Currently trade secretary and brexiteer).

Or we will see a leadership election coming in the weeks ahead. Jacob Rees Mogg is leading the back bench brexiteer movement and they want change now. If we do see this scenario David Davis could end up in the contest.


And it is still a mess in the UK government. Only a few months left. Yeah, let's have another PM, complete disaster from the UK side. Let's waste another month or two/three. Nothing is working, the UK is just heading for disaster again. Ah well, at the next EU summit, perhaps they can just skip the Brexit from the agenda, no point in discussing anything will leave another 5 minutes of discussion time for more important matters.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:56 am

seahawk wrote:
There is only one Brexit and that is the no deal Brexit, everything else is a slap in the face of the voters who wanted to leave the EU completely.


I agree a slap in the face of these voters with an extreme opinion, but what about the rest of the voters with a nuanced opinion? Let's say the remaining 90%.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:02 am

scbriml wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Over the total invasion of my privacy, that's another story, however.


Which invasion of your privacy?

Is that the privacy you like to think you have? You have no privacy unless you go completely "off grid" and go live in the woods.


Privacy is a human right, that i can voluntarily (!) share lots of private information doesn´t mean that involuntary taking of that information is ok. That is the very reason why for example Facebook handles private information very different in the EU than ourside. Zuckerberg even had a note for his hearing reminding him not not mention that Facebook works according to EU privacy rules in the EU.
If Facebook wouldn´t do that, they would soon be owned by the EU since the penalties are so high (up to 4% of the annual, worldwide turnover).

The EU should have told the US to shove it where the light don´t shine when they wanted to have complete PNR from the airlines and started to penalize each Airline that passes the data. But i guess that ship has sailed.

best regards
Thomas
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LJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:03 am

Arion640 wrote:
The problem was Cameron and Osbourne were too arrogant remain would win. They called the vote and lost by over a million. Then buggered off and let others clear up the mess.


Which was the only thing Cameron could do as he doesn't believe in a Brexit. You have to give Cameron some credit. He could just say that there wouldn't be a refendum after it was clear the EU wasn't going to increase the opt outs. Then again, who could have resigned before declaring a referendum.

Arion640 wrote:
What should of happened was a brexit negotiated and the referendum should of been on the deal versus staying in.


And who would have done the negotiations with the EU? Nobody in power wanted a Brexit before the referendum. Moreover, do you really think the situation would be different (other than the UK actually has to leave after March 2019)? UK politics (and especially the Torries) have always been split about the EU (hence the opt outs). To be honest, I think the EU should never have started giving the UK opt outs, and thus giving the impression that the UK could get anything it wants as it's somewhow "special".
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:11 am

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
There is only one Brexit and that is the no deal Brexit, everything else is a slap in the face of the voters who wanted to leave the EU completely.


I agree a slap in the face of these voters with an extreme opinion, but what about the rest of the voters with a nuanced opinion? Let's say the remaining 90%.


The question was if they want to leave the EU or not, not if they want to leave a little bit. For me the whole debate is pointless, as out means out.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:21 am

Arion640 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
The only reason it’s falling apart is Theresa May tried to sell something to the country that wasn’t brexit.


Maybe if all those wonderful Brexit cheerleaders actually had a clue how to make Brexit work before we voted, we wouldn't be in this mess. But they didn't then and they don't now. They have nothing but "taking back control" bluster and bullshit. :banghead:

Arion640 wrote:
Think of what you want about JRM, but I was only making an observation. I wasn’t suggesting he would be PM.


Oh, he'd be the perfect PM. If we were still living in 1818.


The problem was Cameron and Osbourne were too arrogant remain would win. They called the vote and lost by over a million. Then buggered off and let others clear up the mess.

What should of happened was a brexit negotiated and the referendum should of been on the deal versus staying in.


Why do you think the EU would have set up a negotiating team and a negotiating position just in case the UK voted leave on a possible future referendum?

Will someone at some point man up, own it and say "we had absolutely no clue on what to do, we were just trying to score political points on petty party infighting and knowingly misled everyone into believing Brexit was a) feasible and b) desirable".

That would be a nice start.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:23 am

And on which side of the table would the UK sit? As before triggering Article 50 they would still enjoy full membership privileges, so any deal would have to be accepted by them.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:44 am

.....and David Davis has resigned.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44761056

best regards
Thomas
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Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:46 am

LJ wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
The problem was Cameron and Osbourne were too arrogant remain would win. They called the vote and lost by over a million. Then buggered off and let others clear up the mess.


Which was the only thing Cameron could do as he doesn't believe in a Brexit. You have to give Cameron some credit. He could just say that there wouldn't be a refendum after it was clear the EU wasn't going to increase the opt outs. Then again, who could have resigned before declaring a referendum.

Arion640 wrote:
What should of happened was a brexit negotiated and the referendum should of been on the deal versus staying in.


And who would have done the negotiations with the EU? Nobody in power wanted a Brexit before the referendum. Moreover, do you really think the situation would be different (other than the UK actually has to leave after March 2019)? UK politics (and especially the Torries) have always been split about the EU (hence the opt outs). To be honest, I think the EU should never have started giving the UK opt outs, and thus giving the impression that the UK could get anything it wants as it's somewhow "special".


So pro EU gang on this thread say we should of negotiated an exit from the EU beforehand, so I try to provide some commentary to that, then someone else comes along and tries to shout that down. Talk about logic.

We have never fully wanted to be part of Europe, hence the opt outs. We’ve been the most euro septic of all EU countries. Imagine if we had had schengen and we had been fully overun with people. Scary to even think about. Face it, we have rejected the EU.

Good to see Davis resigning anyway, a true great british patriot.
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Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:46 am

tommy1808 wrote:
.....and David Davis has resigned.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44761056

best regards
Thomas


Already reported on this thread nearly 12 hours ago.
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JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:07 am

Arion640 wrote:
So pro EU gang on this thread say we should of negotiated an exit from the EU beforehand, so I try to provide some commentary to that, then someone else comes along and tries to shout that down. Talk about logic.

We have never fully wanted to be part of Europe, hence the opt outs. We’ve been the most euro septic of all EU countries. Imagine if we had had schengen and we had been fully overun with people. Scary to even think about. Face it, we have rejected the EU.


The negotiations should have taken place after the vote but before invoking art. 50, with a second referendum in place for that. But that implies a bit of forethought and a willingness to backtrack it things didn't work right.

Britain only got in the EEC because their post-imperial economy was in the crapper and their EFTA project failed. To call them opportunists is putting it very mildly.

Had a bit of a laugh at your typo, though. So appropriate.

septic
ˈsɛptɪk/
adjective
1.
(chiefly of a wound or a part of the body) infected with bacteria.
"his feet had gone septic"
synonyms: infected, festering, suppurating, pus-filled, putrid, putrefying, putrefactive, purulent, poisoned, diseased
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:13 am

Again that is not possible. Before triggering Article 50 the UK is a full EU member with full voting rights. So the UK would be able to veto any EU decision made in connection with the negotiations between the EU and the UK. Therefore those negotiations could never deliver a legally binding solution.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:29 am

seahawk wrote:
Again that is not possible. Before triggering Article 50 the UK is a full EU member with full voting rights. So the UK would be able to veto any EU decision made in connection with the negotiations between the EU and the UK. Therefore those negotiations could never deliver a legally binding solution.


I guess that would be easy to deal with by just procedure. However, decades of the UK being like "we get this and this and this or we leave" made that impossible for them just as much as any other EU member.
That why you first have to commit to leaving, before negotiations start.

best regards
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Olddog
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:31 am

JJJ wrote:
The negotiations should have taken place after the vote but before invoking art. 50, with a second referendum in place for that. But that implies a bit of forethought and a willingness to backtrack it things didn't work right.

Britain only got in the EEC because their post-imperial economy was in the crapper and their EFTA project failed. To call them opportunists is putting it very mildly.


The EU, very cleverly, refused to negotiate before article 50 was invoked. The EU seems to understand the UK very well and knew the mess the conservative party was.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:12 am

David Davis resignation letter says "the 'common rule book' policy hands large swathes of our economy to the EU and is certainly not returning control of our laws in any real sense"

such a paradoxical statement. Leaving the EU/SM/CU does indeed hand lots of our economy to the EU (see phillips, Land Rover, BMW, airbus, Banks etc etc) but this is BECAUSE we are trying to "return control" of our laws.

Staying in the EU/SM/CU would mean we would have control over laws, through being part of their negotiation and implementation, and having a veto of course, whilst retaining this business which is at risk

Arion640 wrote:

What should of happened was a brexit negotiated and the referendum should of been on the deal versus staying in.


This is, in effect, what the peoples vote campaign is asking for now.

Now it is clearer what Brexit is like, and that is clear that the intermingled soft/hard Brexits cannot be combined, a second vote on the outcome vs staying in the EU seems like a very sensible thing to do.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:15 am

Arion640 wrote:
Good to see Davis resigning anyway, a true great british patriot.


Good to see him resign? :shock:

Great British patriot? He's failed miserably to deliver. He had one job to do... :sarcastic:

So who do you want to take over, JRM? BoJo? Farage? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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JJJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:33 am

scbriml wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Good to see Davis resigning anyway, a true great british patriot.


Good to see him resign? :shock:

Great British patriot? He's failed miserably to deliver. He had one job to do... :sarcastic:
:


Wasn't he the one who admitted he had met with his EU counterpart a grand total of 4 hours in 2 years?

The man responsible for the impact assessment soap opera?
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:48 am

I'm not a fan of John McDonnell, but he has hit the nail on the head on this tweet:

"We are now in a situation where there is paralysis in government. Having forced her Brexit policy through her cabinet, Theresa May now knows she hasn’t a majority to push it through Parliament and yet the Brexiteers haven’t the votes to get rid of her. No way to govern a country."

In chess terms this is currently a stalemate - except there is a way out:

https://www.peoples-vote.uk/
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:55 am

Just In:

Labour MPs have been invited to a briefing this afternoon on the "chequers proposal" by the Prime Ministers chief of staff.

So Theresa May is now seeking cross party support for her position... except Labour would of course have their own conditions on any deal and have already ruled out the "chequers proposal" as unacceptable (for many reasons, including the omission of Services in the agreement).

The beginning of more concessions leading to a deal which the EU may find acceptable? Or will Labour capitalise on this?
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:58 am

scbriml wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Good to see Davis resigning anyway, a true great british patriot.


Good to see him resign? :shock:

Great British patriot? He's failed miserably to deliver. He had one job to do... :sarcastic:

So who do you want to take over, JRM? BoJo? Farage? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


His hands were tied by a civil servant. He wanted to deliver the brexit the people wanted and he couldn’t.
319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 738 744 752 753 763 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75.

Brexit - It’s time to take back control
 
Arion640
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:01 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
I think the EUSSR will accept. It’s obvious this was negotiated before hand...look at the merkel meeting yesterday.
.


If this was negotiated before May would be out of her job, because implementing that would violate ukips red lines, as the current UK proposal needs a hard customs border between NI and the rest of the UK.

scbriml wrote:
A few pounds additional cost to enjoy a holiday in Europe is not going to make any difference whatsoever. It will still be by far the cheapest cost associated with the holiday - getting to the airport to fly away will likely cost more than ETIAS. If the cost of ETIAS stops you going to Europe, then you really can't afford the holiday anyway.

In reality, it's not going to stop anyone.


As a student 10 pounds would have been a roughly 10% increase of costs for a London trip, and that that sure as hell would have kept me from going once per year as I used too, not because it would have bankrupted me, but because elsewhere on the continent I would get better value.

However, I'll give you that is not the tourism that is relevant to the UK economy.

sevenair wrote:
constantly tell us that voting to leave the EU didn't mean leaving the SM, so why would that be? Just making it to go along. .


Not everyone on either side understands the common market, under this proposal you would be leaving the common market.

Best regards
Thomas


Turns out I was right thomas. It’s been revealed May discussed this with Merkel before hand.
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Brexit - It’s time to take back control
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:17 am

This is truly amazing. What an utter clusterfu*k. Who knows what things will look like by lunchtime, let alone the end of the day.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:21 am

Arion640 wrote:
Turns out I was right thomas. It’s been revealed May discussed this with Merkel before hand.


which isn´t the same as "negotiated" before.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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seahawk
Posts: 7244
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:25 am

Arion640 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
I think the EUSSR will accept. It’s obvious this was negotiated before hand...look at the merkel meeting yesterday.
.


If this was negotiated before May would be out of her job, because implementing that would violate ukips red lines, as the current UK proposal needs a hard customs border between NI and the rest of the UK.

scbriml wrote:
A few pounds additional cost to enjoy a holiday in Europe is not going to make any difference whatsoever. It will still be by far the cheapest cost associated with the holiday - getting to the airport to fly away will likely cost more than ETIAS. If the cost of ETIAS stops you going to Europe, then you really can't afford the holiday anyway.

In reality, it's not going to stop anyone.


As a student 10 pounds would have been a roughly 10% increase of costs for a London trip, and that that sure as hell would have kept me from going once per year as I used too, not because it would have bankrupted me, but because elsewhere on the continent I would get better value.

However, I'll give you that is not the tourism that is relevant to the UK economy.

sevenair wrote:
constantly tell us that voting to leave the EU didn't mean leaving the SM, so why would that be? Just making it to go along. .


Not everyone on either side understands the common market, under this proposal you would be leaving the common market.

Best regards
Thomas


Turns out I was right thomas. It’s been revealed May discussed this with Merkel before hand.


I wonder why may even talks with Merkel. Take back control - #hardbrexit #now
 
Olddog
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:26 am

Arion640 wrote:
His hands were tied by a civil servant. He wanted to deliver the brexit the people wanted and he couldn’t.


No, his hands were tied by May red lines and by british exceptionalism idea that the the EU will break to accommodate you.

And for the fun :)


Nick Gutteridge (@nick_gutteridge)

EU diplomat jokes DD delayed his resignation because he didn't want to take a taxi back from Chequers. Then brutally adds: 'We're already used to negotiating with Olly Robbins, so this resignation doesn't really affect the negotiations.' Ouch


July 9, 2018

 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:31 am

Arion640 wrote:
His hands were tied by a civil servant. He wanted to deliver the brexit the people wanted and he couldn’t.


Nonsense, that's not how it works. Why do we bother to elect MPs and Governments if the Civil Service is in charge? Why didn't we just ask the Civil Service if we should have Brexit or not? :scratchchin:

So, who do you want to take over, JRM? BoJo? Farage? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:14 am

Arion640 wrote:
His hands were tied by a civil servant. He wanted to deliver the brexit the people wanted and he couldn’t.


No the Tory's were just well and truly cornered by their own policy announcements.

At the end of the day, they will have to deliver one of the following:

1) Irish Border (not compatible with Good Friday agreement, or December 2017 policy)
2) North Sea Border (not compatible with Tory policy or DUP)
3) Close relationship with the EU (not compatible with Tory Red Lines, or hard right members)

So Tory party policy currently rules out all possible outcomes, they just talk about delivering on Brexit and "the will of the people"... but quite what that will is, no-one really knows.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:16 am

scbriml wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
His hands were tied by a civil servant. He wanted to deliver the brexit the people wanted and he couldn’t.


Nonsense, that's not how it works. Why do we bother to elect MPs and Governments if the Civil Service is in charge? Why didn't we just ask the Civil Service if we should have Brexit or not? :scratchchin:


If only "Yes Minister" was still on....
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:32 am

Steve Baker MP, who resigned as David Davis’s deputy at the Brexit department, says he quit because he thinks Theresa May’s Brexit plan will not give parliament enough freedom to reject EU laws.

Does he not realise that this is exactly what we had whilst members of the EU?

The mind boggles....
 
UltimoTiger777
Posts: 403
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:09 am

Richard28 wrote:
In chess terms this is currently a stalemate - except there is a way out:

https://www.peoples-vote.uk/


Except that will just be a vote on whether to accept the deal we get offered or to crash out with no deal.

It isn't going to stop Brexit happening.

If the likes of the #FBPE brigade had got on the EFTA bandwagon, we'd be on our way to a much better relationship and would have avoided a lot of the bridge burning. Instead the ultras on both sides have shot that down.

Richard28 wrote:
Steve Baker MP, who resigned as David Davis’s deputy at the Brexit department, says he quit because he thinks Theresa May’s Brexit plan will not give parliament enough freedom to reject EU laws.

Does he not realise that this is exactly what we had whilst members of the EU?

The mind boggles....


When did Parliament have the right to reject EU directives?

Doesn't that just put you in complete violation of how the legislative process in the EU works?
 
JJJ
Posts: 2971
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:23 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
If the likes of the #FBPE brigade had got on the EFTA bandwagon, we'd be on our way to a much better relationship and would have avoided a lot of the bridge burning. Instead the ultras on both sides have shot that down.


As it's been told time and again: 'I never thought leopards would eat MY face,' sobs woman who voted for the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party. Brexiteers started this, own it and don't try to deflect blame elsewhere.

It's not like leave voters embarked on a charm offensive to try to win moderate remain voters either. I could only see a lot of pointed fingers going hahahaha we won, you losers #takingbackcontrol #sovereignty #morebuzzwords

Btw: has anyone asked EFTA if they want the UK back? You left them hung to dry last time. And at least for the Swiss allowing Britain in would require a referendum, which you know it can go one way or the other.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:46 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Except that will just be a vote on whether to accept the deal we get offered or to crash out with no deal.

It isn't going to stop Brexit happening.


No, the peoples vote campaign is to either accept the outcome of negotiations or reject them and stay in the EU.

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
If the likes of the #FBPE brigade had got on the EFTA bandwagon, we'd be on our way to a much better relationship and would have avoided a lot of the bridge burning. Instead the ultras on both sides have shot that down.


EFTA is one possible outcome that was ruled out by Theresa May and her infamous self imposed "red lines" before anyone had a chance to properly consider it. But how would this outcome have been better for the UK? Remember that EFTA is also not part of the customs union, so the Northern Ireland issue would not have been solved through membership

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Doesn't that just put you in complete violation of how the legislative process in the EU works?


No, the UK, within the EU, can exercise a veto on areas of foreign affairs, taxation, justice and the EU budget, although other areas need a qualifying majority.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 744
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:55 am

So

“The PM said in her letter to the secretary of state that she didn’t agree with his characterisation of the position, an agreement was reached by the cabinet on Friday and now we are moving forward to negotiate that plan,” the spokesman told reporters.

“As the prime minister said ... We have set out our position and it is now the EU’s turn to move and that she wants the EU to get serious in these negotiation.”

The remarks show little willingness to deviate from the government’s negotiating position despite the resignation of Brexit minister David Davis late on Sunday night in protest at the plan


To demonstrate ad nauseum that UK is not trying to negotiate in good faith. They put in the air a plan that breaks the single market only to UK interest and then they are complaining that the EU is not flexible enough :)
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:01 pm

Boris Johnson has gone missing, was due at a Western Balkans summit in London, but has not turned up... is apparently still considering his position and whether to resign (i.e. can he use this as an opportunity to further his own career / similar decision process as in 2016)
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:03 pm

...or if he is a true Brexiter he can maintain his principles and resign as Brexit if dead under the current leadership.
Bit of this bit of that...

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