salttee
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The Toba Eruption

Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:50 am

If you don't know about the Toba supereruption here is an interesting read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory

I have been a follower of news about Toba for many years, for me it dovetails perfectly with all that we know about human evolution and I've never come across anything to present a challenge to the theory, although I have noticed many literate people who try to ignore it and numerous people who prefer to deny it, without a shred of evidence to support their position. The Toba theory as presented by geologists, geologists and people who study times pre-history (before writing) is presented as a narrow concept and is seldom elaborated on; because, I'm sure it would upend all other theories of human evolution including the forbidden topic of the history of "races" (and we all know that there is no such thing as race - don't we?).

The Toba theory holds that for thousands of years, all human life was suppressed except for three locations which are the only three places at or near the equator that humans existed 75,000 years ago: Central Africa, the southern part of the Indian subcontinent and southern China. Such a theory would imply that there would be three main strains of Humans, and a few hybrids: very controversial stuff, we can see why many people would want to avoid the topic.

There is a recent challenge to the Toba theory, and this challenge is the reason for this post. The specific reason for this post is that the New York Times has jumped into the fray and is giving this new theory publicity, therefore credence.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/12/scie ... ption.html

The theory come from a covey of geologists who are pushing the idea that their finds at Lake Malawi in central Africa show that there was no die off of human life there, and therefore there was no die off of human life as predicted by the Toba theory.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature2 ... ytimes.com

What these geologists ignore (in an effort to increase the importance of their work at Lake Malawi) is the simple fact that Lake Malawi sits between about 9° and 14° south latitude, which is as similarly close to the Equator as is southern China or southern India. In other words the Toba theory does not predict or require a fir off of humans at that latitude.

IMO the Toba theory is fact and should be acknowledged as such.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Toba Eruption

Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:29 pm

Why is the Toba theory the end all be all?
There were more migrations after the Toba period, especially during the height of the last ice age when the sea levels were lower. Many waves of people moving and migrating over hundreds and thousands of miles. Over 71,000 years of history predates the 3000-4000 or so years we have of documented history. There were many generations of humans, many wars, many diseases, famines, genocides. Who knows all the history that was made and lost in that time? The Toba supereruption was probably a very important piece of the story as it's effects were felt over a thousand years, but I don't think Toba itself explains "Everything".
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
salttee
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Re: The Toba Eruption

Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:11 pm

Because it separated the human population into three groups isolated from each other and kept them separate for several thousand years. We humans at one time (circa 70 kya), were three very separate groups, with three separate language types, separate cultures and different physical appearances. DNA evidence tells us that the human population was reduced to about 10,000 breeding pairs at that time.

After the Toba effects waned, the Earth apparently gradually warmed until about 52kya when another cooling spell took place, but this was small potatoes compared to Toba. There were several cooling and warming periods after that. The last Glacial Maximum period ended about 22kya and things warmed until about 12.9kya when there was another 1,500 year long cool period. After a few oscillations we reached the current warm period about 9,600 BCE (11,600kya). Any climate oscillations since then have been minor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... al_history

We can trace continuous human development back about 10,000 years.

Another thing to consider when tracking human development, is the fact that there was a distinct human population which lived at the northern fringes of habitable Earth, these Northern hunters (Germanic, Uralic and North Asian) followed the mammoth and Mastodon herds in the north. We don't know when they began to separate themselves from the more settled types who were huddled near the Equator but we do know that they were the Humans who lived alongside the Neanderthals and we know that the westernmost of these tribes develoed into the Germanic people and we can find unique features (language) from the Uralic people who seem to share traits of both east and west.

I find the subject hugely interesting.
 
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Aesma
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Re: The Toba Eruption

Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:41 am

Looking at the wikipedia article this seems like a fringe theory, started by a journalist.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
salttee
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Re: The Toba Eruption

Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:08 am

Aesma wrote:
Looking at the wikipedia article this seems like a fringe theory, started by a journalist.

Are you denying that there was an eruption at Toba 74kya?
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: The Toba Eruption

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:23 am

i had never heard of this occurring, has the history channel ever done a show on this event? I would imagine that there was a massive migration event much like you mentioned to get away from the falling ash and to ground where they could find uncontaminated food and water. I would also imagine that many people died during this event.
 
WIederling
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Re: The Toba Eruption

Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:17 am

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
.. has the history channel ever done a show on this event?


What would that tell either way? It is a show. And what I've seen it carries more agenda than fact.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Aesma
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Re: The Toba Eruption

Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:59 am

salttee wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Looking at the wikipedia article this seems like a fringe theory, started by a journalist.

Are you denying that there was an eruption at Toba 74kya?


No, it seems there is evidence of that happening. It's the consequences that seem difficult to prove, with conflicting evidence.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Toba Eruption

Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:37 am

Aesma wrote:
salttee wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Looking at the wikipedia article this seems like a fringe theory, started by a journalist.

Are you denying that there was an eruption at Toba 74kya?


No, it seems there is evidence of that happening. It's the consequences that seem difficult to prove, with conflicting evidence.


As always in an academic debate. There is a theory and that needs to be disproven and whichever theory has the most evidence, that's the one which was probably right.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
salttee
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Re: The Toba Eruption

Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:24 pm

Aesma wrote:
salttee wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Looking at the wikipedia article this seems like a fringe theory, started by a journalist.

Are you denying that there was an eruption at Toba 74kya?


No, it seems there is evidence of that happening. It's the consequences that seem difficult to prove, with conflicting evidence.

Do you believe there was a "genetic bottleneck" that occurred at about that time which reduced the human population on Earth to possibly as few as 2,000 breeding pairs?
 
WIederling
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Re: The Toba Eruption

Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:09 pm

DA trackbacks seem to show that there was a bottleneck around 60 to 70 years ago.
Another one 120k, even further back some indications show one 1.2m years ago.

IMU there is much more genetic variation inside Africa than all of humanity shows
on the rest of the globe.

Australian Aborigines seem to date back to about 120k
In general you find commentary ( backed with findings ) that the Toba erruption is overvalued by some.:-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
salttee
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Re: The Toba Eruption

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:00 pm

WIederling wrote:
DA trackbacks seem to show that there was a bottleneck around 60 to 70 years ago.
Like 1950?
WIederling wrote:
Another one 120k, even further back some indications show one 1.2m years ago.
About 195kya was when the first modern "human" remains are claimed; to some that seems a stretch, 130kya is better accepted; thus, no bottleneck at 120kya. 1.2 mya is way too far back to have a "bottleneck".https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- ... -17801455/


WIederling wrote:
IMU there is much more genetic variation inside Africa than all of humanity shows on the rest of the globe.
If it was beyond 195 kya it was a variation in humanoids, not humans.https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- ... -17801455/

WIederling wrote:
Australian Aborigines seem to date back to about 120k
Accepted research has put that at something like 40kya (or maybe 60kya by some).https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/08/scie ... ralia.html

WIederling wrote:
In general you find commentary ( backed with findings ) that the Toba erruption is overvalued by some.:-)
As the round Earth theory is disputed by some.

WIederling, you have a history here of just making up "facts", please go away and stop trolling this thread.
 
WIederling
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Re: The Toba Eruption

Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:51 pm

salttee wrote:
WIederling, you have a history here of just making up "facts", please go away and stop trolling this thread.


I see it as advisable for you to read more gaining some knowledge all around
and write much less condescending screeds here.
Murphy is an optimist
 
salttee
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Re: The Toba Eruption

Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:17 pm

WIederling wrote:
salttee wrote:
WIederling, you have a history here of just making up "facts", please go away and stop trolling this thread.


I see it as advisable for you to read more gaining some knowledge all around
and write much less condescending screeds here.
Once more you have insult without any other content.

BTW
Everything you claimed in post #11 was dis-proven in post #12 (with citations).
 
salttee
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Re: The Toba Eruption

Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:28 am

salttee wrote:
Another thing to consider when tracking human development, is the fact that there was a distinct human population which lived at the northern fringes of habitable Earth, these Northern hunters (Germanic, Uralic and North Asian) followed the mammoth and Mastodon herds in the north. We don't know when they began to separate themselves from the more settled types who were huddled near the Equator but we do know that they were the Humans who lived alongside the Neanderthals and we know that the westernmost of these tribes developed into the Germanic people and we can find unique features (language) from the Uralic people who seem to share traits of both east and west.


I should have mentioned above that the North Asian nomadic tribes in the Arctic and sub Arctic were the people who crossed the Bearing Sea land bridge and became the Native Americans.

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