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bennett123
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:32 pm

Given the delay, I doubt there is any forensic evidence.

Meaning that unless she said something at the time to the Hotel, then it is her word against his.

I would be surprised if he agrees that the encounter took place at all.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:34 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
I am not understanding the time lapse here. This happened months ago. If she felt she was raped why not call 911 that morning and have him arrested?

Why don't you ask your women friends? Go ahead, please, and they will tell you why.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Noise
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:36 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Given the delay, I doubt there is any forensic evidence.


Question - can the pilot counter-sue in the event of slander or defamation in this case? In what cases can/would this happen?
 
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spinotter
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:37 pm

wowlookplanes wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Jamake1 wrote:
Well I can see that misogyny and sexism are alive and well on A. Net today...


No. You can see that we all have a healthy level of skepticism about some woman who claims she was raped. Did she go into his room willingly? Then if so, what did she expect? How many times and with how many partners had she had sex before? All of these questions are valid and I hope the court will entertain them.


"What did she expect?" In your world agreeing to go to a guy's room is all the consent he needs? Antiquated, spinotter....those are ice age views....

I think you forgot to add, "What was she wearing?", "How much makeup did she have on?" and "Did she look at him in a suggestive manner?" to your list of valid questions...


No, come on, guy. I think we all would like some good sex if we can get it. That certainly applies to me. How much more to a twenty-something copilot, whether male or female, with his/her co-captain? I think this one woman, for whatever reason, is suffering from buyer's remorse. Sorry, lady, it's too late now!
 
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spinotter
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:38 pm

Noise wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Given the delay, I doubt there is any forensic evidence.


Question - can the pilot counter-sue in the event of slander or defamation in this case? In what cases can/would this happen?


I doubt it in present-day America. No counter-suits, just suits.
 
Noise
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:40 pm

spinotter wrote:
Noise wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Given the delay, I doubt there is any forensic evidence.


Question - can the pilot counter-sue in the event of slander or defamation in this case? In what cases can/would this happen?


I doubt it in present-day America. No counter-suits, just suits.


You mean because of the current political environment?
 
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spinotter
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:40 pm

Whiplash6 wrote:
lostsound wrote:
Whiplash6 wrote:
*Has sex with another pilot on overnight.

One year later:

Was I drugged? I may have been drugged. Yeah. I must’ve been. I’m pretty sure. Oh well.

*Ruins man’s career.


Or

One year later:

Finally brave enough to admit she was raped and is ready to speak out against her rapist, regardless of the backlash from mansplainers who say shit like what you've said.

It's not impossible for her to be lying, but sadly it's unlikely.
\

Triggered into being the first person on airliners.net to use the word ‘mansplain’... Incredible.


You don't know if it was that way. You were not there. Many scenarios possible, if your mind can accept them. Mansplain or humanspalin?
 
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Tugger
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:47 pm

spinotter wrote:
You don't know if it was that way. You were not there. Many scenarios possible, if your mind can accept them.

This goes to you to. Yet you are stating unequivocally that it did not happen. So why are you not open?

To those noting "why is only now coming out with this, after a year", she also filed a complaint with the airline and you don't know when she filed that. It may have happened immediately after the event, it would not be the first time a company investigation took a long time, too long.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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spinotter
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:53 pm

Noise wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Noise wrote:

Question - can the pilot counter-sue in the event of slander or defamation in this case? In what cases can/would this happen?


I doubt it in present-day America. No counter-suits, just suits.


You mean because of the current political environment?


The #MeToo movement. We all, male and female alike, have experienced interest from older human beings. And that is okay up to a point. Not with violence or against anyone's wishes. So I am so unfortunate if that happens. Anybody who found Harvey Weinstein as disgusting as I find him, why did he/she submit, future fame? Well, then, you deserve whatever you get. Maybe the same with this co-pilot. Can she know herself?
Last edited by spinotter on Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
milemaster
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:54 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Please keep the discussion on topic. The discussion has been moved to Non Av, but please keep things appropriate.

✈️ atcsundevil


Why would this thread need to be moved to Non Av when an equally relative thread about a dog dying in an overhead bin on a United flight not be?
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:56 pm

Tugger wrote:
spinotter wrote:
You don't know if it was that way. You were not there. Many scenarios possible, if your mind can accept them.

This goes to you to. Yet you are stating unequivocally that it did not happen. So why are you not open?

To those noting "why is only now coming out with this, after a year", she also filed a complaint with the airline and you don't know when she filed that. It may have happened immediately after the event, it would not be the first time a company investigation took a long time, too long.

Tugg


Even if she did file an complaint with Alaska, if she did not contact the police what are they supposed to do?
It essentially boils down to he said/she said and they are not going to discipline someone based upon one unsubstantiated complaint...
 
Noise
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:56 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Tugger wrote:
spinotter wrote:
You don't know if it was that way. You were not there. Many scenarios possible, if your mind can accept them.

This goes to you to. Yet you are stating unequivocally that it did not happen. So why are you not open?

To those noting "why is only now coming out with this, after a year", she also filed a complaint with the airline and you don't know when she filed that. It may have happened immediately after the event, it would not be the first time a company investigation took a long time, too long.

Tugg


Even if she did file an complaint with Alaska, if she did not contact the police what are they supposed to do?
It essentially boils down to he said/she said and they are not going to discipline someone based upon one unsubstantiated complaint...


If anything, they should discipline her for an unsubstantiated complaint. She's ruining a man's career here and accusing him of doing something she provides no evidence of him doing.
 
milemaster
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:57 pm

spinotter wrote:
Noise wrote:
spinotter wrote:

I doubt it in present-day America. No counter-suits, just suits.


You mean because of the current political environment?


The #MeToo movement. We all, male and female alike, have experienced interest from older human beings. And that is okay up to a point. Not with violence or against anyone's wishes. So I am so unfortunate if that happens. Anybody who found Harvey Weinstein as disgusting as I find him, why did he/she submit, future fame? Well, then, you deserve whatever you get. Maybe the same with this co-pilot. Can she know herself?


You seem to have it all figured out on the basis of a single Fox News article.
 
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spinotter
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:57 pm

Tugger wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I am not understanding the time lapse here. This happened months ago. If she felt she was raped why not call 911 that morning and have him arrested?

Why don't you ask your women friends? Go ahead, please, and they will tell you why.

Tugg


But legally, it is very suspicious.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:01 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Tugger wrote:
spinotter wrote:
You don't know if it was that way. You were not there. Many scenarios possible, if your mind can accept them.

This goes to you to. Yet you are stating unequivocally that it did not happen. So why are you not open?

To those noting "why is only now coming out with this, after a year", she also filed a complaint with the airline and you don't know when she filed that. It may have happened immediately after the event, it would not be the first time a company investigation took a long time, too long.

Tugg


Even if she did file an complaint with Alaska, if she did not contact the police what are they supposed to do?
It essentially boils down to he said/she said and they are not going to discipline someone based upon one unsubstantiated complaint...

Which is true, and I believe part of the reason the suit was filed so that more will have the chance to come forward and substantiate the complaint.

I also would not be surprised if in conversations with others this pilot may have heard identical stories to hers and so became forced to file to stop it. That is just me postulating, not like I know as fact or anything so don't think I am trying to state it as fact. But the crew community is tight, people talk and share. The truth will come out in the end and that is what is important.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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c933103
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:01 pm

Tugger wrote:
Noise wrote:
In cases like these, particularly sexual assault cases, proof matters a lot! We're talking about someone's life and career here. If we're going to pass judgement on him, we better see some sort of forensic or scientific proof.

Sorry but that is not needed.

The reality here is that by filing the suit and the publicity, if this actually did happen then the captain likely used this tactic before and since. So this will bring out others if it did happen. And once/if other women (co-pilots or not) do come forward with a similar story this guy is as good as dead.

A few problems with this assessment:
1. What if she was the sole victim? Then are you going to discredit her?
2. What if it was a plot by more than one individuals? While its is very unlikely in this case but I thought I have seen comparable situation on politicians.
3. What if the public condemnation is the goal of the lawsuit filing? That have also occured before.

And I do tend to actually believe the co-pilot filing the suit as this is not something people do on the offhand chance they'll win.

Tugg

"I would question this as it seems like all sort of extraordinary things are filed as lawsuit especially in America
Tugger wrote:
Why do some people here think women just make up accusations? Why do they a woman is more apt to character assassination than an man is to drugging a women for some easy sex?

It is more likely for woman to be actually being raped statistically, together with millions of unreported cases as well as cases that have been reported but failed to establish charges due to lack of evidence. However at the same time there are also cases, despite relatively few, where man have been charged for guilty on these matters and served sentences and/or social dissent only to be proved innocent afterward.
The is a life changing course for a woman to take. It can ruin her life, open her up to ad hominem attacks, and expose anything and everything she has ever done in her life.

Again, despite relatively few people being wrongly accused, but I have read about reports that people are forced into suicide due to social pressure, lost their jobs or spent decades in prison before charges against them are rejected. Of course, they are absolute minority compared to millions of criminal and victims to rape around the world, but that does not mean that is a proper way to handle the situation.
I am sad to say but I do think a vast majority of women are telling the truth if they are willing to open themselves up to such things. These aren't fame junkies or gold diggers, nothing like that.

Tugg

Yes, vast majority woman are telling the truth, but it would be a challenge to the entire society in term of how to encourage and handle all these reports while preventing from being affected by the few that are not.
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CCGPV
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:03 pm

milemaster wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Please keep the discussion on topic. The discussion has been moved to Non Av, but please keep things appropriate.

✈️ atcsundevil


Why would this thread need to be moved to Non Av when an equally relative thread about a dog dying in an overhead bin on a United flight not be?


Its not good for the brand.
Stay curious
 
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spinotter
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:03 pm

milemaster wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Noise wrote:

You mean because of the current political environment?


The #MeToo movement. We all, male and female alike, have experienced interest from older human beings. And that is okay up to a point. Not with violence or against anyone's wishes. So I am so unfortunate if that happens. Anybody who found Harvey Weinstein as disgusting as I find him, why did he/she submit, future fame? Well, then, you deserve whatever you get. Maybe the same with this co-pilot. Can she know herself?


You seem to have it all figured out on the basis of a single Fox News article.


No, from personal experience and the weight of probability.
 
Zachbt
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:03 pm

This reminds me of a law and order:svu episode that aired not too long ago, but that being TV, was completely sensational and the reason the rape came out was because it happened but the airline in question covered it up because a few senior pilots up to the board room was like a boys club and promoted her to compensate for the rape happening.

The female pilot in question was then put on another flight with the rapist, even after being told they would be kept separate and she hijacked the plane after having a mid air breakdown.

Long story short she went to prison for hijacking a plane but the district attorneys were able to get the captain for.the rape after further investigation into the airline and years of misogyny were exposed by previous female pilots and administrative employees who had been persecuted for not having a penis.

As this is a civil case it could well be that the purported victim is trying to shake the tree to see what comes out in the hope that more people will come forward.
 
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c933103
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:08 pm

spinotter wrote:
Tugger wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I am not understanding the time lapse here. This happened months ago. If she felt she was raped why not call 911 that morning and have him arrested?

Why don't you ask your women friends? Go ahead, please, and they will tell you why.

Tugg


But legally, it is very suspicious.

It would be more challenging to find out the truth but the mentality of victim is not unthinkable

milemaster wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Please keep the discussion on topic. The discussion has been moved to Non Av, but please keep things appropriate.

✈️ atcsundevil


Why would this thread need to be moved to Non Av when an equally relative thread about a dog dying in an overhead bin on a United flight not be?

Dog dying in overhead bin related to ways animal and baggages are treated during a flight and all the relevant procedure, while this barely have to do with any flight procedure
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spinotter
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:08 pm

Tugger wrote:
spinotter wrote:
You don't know if it was that way. You were not there. Many scenarios possible, if your mind can accept them.

This goes to you to. Yet you are stating unequivocally that it did not happen. So why are you not open?

To those noting "why is only now coming out with this, after a year", she also filed a complaint with the airline and you don't know when she filed that. It may have happened immediately after the event, it would not be the first time a company investigation took a long time, too long.

Tugg


I am not stating that it did not happen, if you only read my words. No one except those two know what happened, if even those two. But a year after? Why not that day? Shame, doubt, self-denial? What next?
 
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spinotter
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:11 pm

Noise wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Tugger wrote:
This goes to you to. Yet you are stating unequivocally that it did not happen. So why are you not open?

To those noting "why is only now coming out with this, after a year", she also filed a complaint with the airline and you don't know when she filed that. It may have happened immediately after the event, it would not be the first time a company investigation took a long time, too long.

Tugg


Even if she did file an complaint with Alaska, if she did not contact the police what are they supposed to do?
It essentially boils down to he said/she said and they are not going to discipline someone based upon one unsubstantiated complaint...


If anything, they should discipline her for an unsubstantiated complaint. She's ruining a man's career here and accusing him of doing something she provides no evidence of him doing.


I agree. And I bet she did have sex with him willingly at the time. I would have!
 
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Tugger
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:12 pm

spinotter wrote:
Tugger wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I am not understanding the time lapse here. This happened months ago. If she felt she was raped why not call 911 that morning and have him arrested?

Why don't you ask your women friends? Go ahead, please, and they will tell you why.

Tugg


But legally, it is very suspicious.

Why? If it is a "he said, she said" then I can fully understand why she would go to the company only and not the police. However again, if that did not resolve the situation, I suspect that if it were me I would also then go the next step. Because that should not stay hidden and allowed to continue.

Why do gay people take decades to "come out of the closet"? Because it is impossibly difficult sometimes to expose yourself to an unforgiving public. And many people can't easily do that. (Apologies to the comparison, I am not comparing rape to being gay. I am only trying to examine a point about why wouldn't someone immediately come forward about something that is often immensely private.)

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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milemaster
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:42 pm

c933103 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Why don't you ask your women friends? Go ahead, please, and they will tell you why.

Tugg


But legally, it is very suspicious.

It would be more challenging to find out the truth but the mentality of victim is not unthinkable

milemaster wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Please keep the discussion on topic. The discussion has been moved to Non Av, but please keep things appropriate.

✈️ atcsundevil


Why would this thread need to be moved to Non Av when an equally relative thread about a dog dying in an overhead bin on a United flight not be?

Dog dying in overhead bin related to ways animal and baggages are treated during a flight and all the relevant procedure, while this barely have to do with any flight procedure


Cool, so the active thread on Civ Av where AA accused of wasting investor money clearly is OK though. What with all the flight-related procedures and such being discussed.

CCGPV wrote:
milemaster wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Please keep the discussion on topic. The discussion has been moved to Non Av, but please keep things appropriate.

✈️ atcsundevil


Why would this thread need to be moved to Non Av when an equally relative thread about a dog dying in an overhead bin on a United flight not be?


Its not good for the brand.


Yep! Pretty shameless..
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:44 pm

Tugger wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Why don't you ask your women friends? Go ahead, please, and they will tell you why.

Tugg


But legally, it is very suspicious.

Why? If it is a "he said, she said" then I can fully understand why she would go to the company only and not the police.


I don't. When it is a he said/she said situation and there really is no other evidence, it is especially important for victims to go to the police so they can gather forensic evidence that the victim may have never thought about to substantiate the story. Alaska are not criminal investigators so I am not quite sure what she was expecting from them...
 
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Revelation
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:49 pm

Tugger wrote:
Why do some people here think women just make up accusations? Why do they a woman is more apt to character assassination than an man is to drugging a women for some easy sex?

The is a life changing course for a woman to take. It can ruin her life, open her up to ad hominem attacks, and expose anything and everything she has ever done in her life.

I am sad to say but I do think a vast majority of women are telling the truth if they are willing to open themselves up to such things. These aren't fame junkies or gold diggers, nothing like that.

That's already happening here...

milemaster wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Please keep the discussion on topic. The discussion has been moved to Non Av, but please keep things appropriate.

✈️ atcsundevil

Why would this thread need to be moved to Non Av when an equally relative thread about a dog dying in an overhead bin on a United flight not be?

This didn't happen on an airliner. It's pretty dubious that this has anything to do with aviation, other than fact that the employer is an airline, which is not significant.

spinotter wrote:
milemaster wrote:
spinotter wrote:

The #MeToo movement. We all, male and female alike, have experienced interest from older human beings. And that is okay up to a point. Not with violence or against anyone's wishes. So I am so unfortunate if that happens. Anybody who found Harvey Weinstein as disgusting as I find him, why did he/she submit, future fame? Well, then, you deserve whatever you get. Maybe the same with this co-pilot. Can she know herself?


You seem to have it all figured out on the basis of a single Fox News article.


No, from personal experience and the weight of probability.

I.e. from the weight of probability based on your personal experience...

If you look at the actual probability, women are far more likely to be the victims of rape and/or sexual abuse than men.
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atcsundevil
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:03 pm

milemaster wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Please keep the discussion on topic. The discussion has been moved to Non Av, but please keep things appropriate.

✈️ atcsundevil


Why would this thread need to be moved to Non Av when an equally relative thread about a dog dying in an overhead bin on a United flight not be?

Because 95% of the comments replying to the OP are not aviation related. Wouldn't make for much of a discussion in Civ Av if everything was deleted.

CCGPV wrote:
Its not good for the brand.

:roll: I don't work for the website, so I'm not sure what makes you think I'd be any more protective of the "brand" than any other user. But sure, however you choose to rationalize it...

Revelation wrote:
This didn't happen on an airliner. It's pretty dubious that this has anything to do with aviation, other than fact that the employer is an airline, which is not significant.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
 
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spinotter
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:04 pm

Revelation wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Why do some people here think women just make up accusations? Why do they a woman is more apt to character assassination than an man is to drugging a women for some easy sex?

The is a life changing course for a woman to take. It can ruin her life, open her up to ad hominem attacks, and expose anything and everything she has ever done in her life.

I am sad to say but I do think a vast majority of women are telling the truth if they are willing to open themselves up to such things. These aren't fame junkies or gold diggers, nothing like that.

That's already happening here...

milemaster wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Please keep the discussion on topic. The discussion has been moved to Non Av, but please keep things appropriate.

✈️ atcsundevil

Why would this thread need to be moved to Non Av when an equally relative thread about a dog dying in an overhead bin on a United flight not be?

This didn't happen on an airliner. It's pretty dubious that this has anything to do with aviation, other than fact that the employer is an airline, which is not significant.

spinotter wrote:
milemaster wrote:

You seem to have it all figured out on the basis of a single Fox News article.


No, from personal experience and the weight of probability.

I.e. from the weight of probability based on your personal experience...

If you look at the actual probability, women are far more likely to be the victims of rape and/or sexual abuse than men.


I doubt that, but say it is true. Say 40% of all males and 70% of all females have been violated in some way. I was certainly violated once, but I'm not suing anyone about it. That is reality and you cannot change it. Each person must decide whether to acknowledge what has happened and go forward, or stay in a self-blocking situation for now and maybe the rest of one's life. Your choice.
 
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spinotter
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:08 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Tugger wrote:
spinotter wrote:

But legally, it is very suspicious.

Why? If it is a "he said, she said" then I can fully understand why she would go to the company only and not the police.


I don't. When it is a he said/she said situation and there really is no other evidence, it is especially important for victims to go to the police so they can gather forensic evidence that the victim may have never thought about to substantiate the story. Alaska are not criminal investigators so I am not quite sure what she was expecting from them...


Forensic evidence? That will never show what he or she or they were thinking that night, and who said what to whom. Or did what to whom, before or after the alcohol and/or the other drugs. Are you that naive?
 
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:26 pm

Jamake1 wrote:
Well I can see that misogyny and sexism are alive and well on A. Net today...


Hey, male pilot vs woman on a.net? :sarcastic:

Summary: She's a skanky ho and deserved everything she got. Meanwhile, this poor pilot risks getting his career and reputation ruined by that bitch. Where's the proof?
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c933103
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:35 pm

spinotter wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Why? If it is a "he said, she said" then I can fully understand why she would go to the company only and not the police.


I don't. When it is a he said/she said situation and there really is no other evidence, it is especially important for victims to go to the police so they can gather forensic evidence that the victim may have never thought about to substantiate the story. Alaska are not criminal investigators so I am not quite sure what she was expecting from them...


Forensic evidence? That will never show what he or she or they were thinking that night, and who said what to whom. Or did what to whom, before or after the alcohol and/or the other drugs. Are you that naive?

There are many details to the story other than just sex which could have been checked. At the very least polices are more experienced with the situation and know how should such cases be persuaded. Note that, because of difficulty for women to speak on such situation, it cannot be said as incorrect if they opted not to contact police, however what I am thinking about it is that if the airline is being told about such information, would it be wise for airlines to ask for help from law enforcement to investigate the case?
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CCGPV
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:40 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
milemaster wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Please keep the discussion on topic. The discussion has been moved to Non Av, but please keep things appropriate.

✈️ atcsundevil


Why would this thread need to be moved to Non Av when an equally relative thread about a dog dying in an overhead bin on a United flight not be?

Because 95% of the comments replying to the OP are not aviation related. Wouldn't make for much of a discussion in Civ Av if everything was deleted.

CCGPV wrote:
Its not good for the brand.

:roll: I don't work for the website, so I'm not sure what makes you think I'd be any more protective of the "brand" than any other user. But sure, however you choose to rationalize it...

Revelation wrote:
This didn't happen on an airliner. It's pretty dubious that this has anything to do with aviation, other than fact that the employer is an airline, which is not significant.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:


So why this thread out of all the other aviation related threads? Because its off-color? We talk about plane crashes, dead animals, fights, arrests, etc in civil aviation but why not this thread?

I suspect its because you want to protect the brand of the civil aviation forum as being friendly.
Stay curious
 
Redd
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:41 pm

wowlookplanes wrote:
Whole lotta misogyny here......



Because people aren't taking the woman at her word and willing to throw the man under the bus sans-proof? Because no man has lost his career/life/family over false rape allegations before......
 
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:03 pm

spinotter wrote:
BartSimpson wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I am not understanding the time lapse here. This happened months ago. If she felt she was raped why not call 911 that morning and have him arrested?


I take it that you have never been raped and felt that shame. (Me neither.) You possibly can't even imagine what that means. This is not some petty theft.


We mammals are need sex. Only Homo sapiens repents.


Just for clarification: because I am a mammal and therefore need sex, I can just take it from anybody as I like?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:36 pm

spinotter wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I.e. from the weight of probability based on your personal experience...

If you look at the actual probability, women are far more likely to be the victims of rape and/or sexual abuse than men.


I doubt that, but say it is true. Say 40% of all males and 70% of all females have been violated in some way. I was certainly violated once, but I'm not suing anyone about it. That is reality and you cannot change it. Each person must decide whether to acknowledge what has happened and go forward, or stay in a self-blocking situation for now and maybe the rest of one's life. Your choice.

You're all over the place. First you reach a false conclusion based on probabilities, then you partition the population to make some point about the genders that isn't relevant, then you say that you chose not to use the courts, which has no bearing on the fact that this person is choosing to use the courts.

scbriml wrote:
Jamake1 wrote:
Well I can see that misogyny and sexism are alive and well on A. Net today...

Hey, male pilot vs woman on a.net? :sarcastic:

Summary: She's a skanky ho and deserved everything she got. Meanwhile, this poor pilot risks getting his career and reputation ruined by that bitch. Where's the proof?

:checkmark:

CCGPV wrote:
So why this thread out of all the other aviation related threads? Because its off-color? We talk about plane crashes, dead animals, fights, arrests, etc in civil aviation but why not this thread?

We talk about plane crashes because they are aviation related.
We talk about dead animals when they are aviation related.
We talk about fights and arrests when they are aviation related.

This case involves two people who happen to be pilots working for the same airline.
Beyond that, it is not aviation related.

CCGPV wrote:
I suspect its because you want to protect the brand of the civil aviation forum as being friendly.

I suspect you were given an answer you don't like so you're ignoring it.

Redd wrote:
wowlookplanes wrote:
Whole lotta misogyny here......

Because people aren't taking the woman at her word and willing to throw the man under the bus sans-proof? Because no man has lost his career/life/family over false rape allegations before......

So you're saying you don't see misogyny in this thread?
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CCGPV
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:43 pm

Revelation wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I.e. from the weight of probability based on your personal experience...

If you look at the actual probability, women are far more likely to be the victims of rape and/or sexual abuse than men.


I doubt that, but say it is true. Say 40% of all males and 70% of all females have been violated in some way. I was certainly violated once, but I'm not suing anyone about it. That is reality and you cannot change it. Each person must decide whether to acknowledge what has happened and go forward, or stay in a self-blocking situation for now and maybe the rest of one's life. Your choice.

You're all over the place. First you reach a false conclusion based on probabilities, then you partition the population to make some point about the genders that isn't relevant, then you say that you chose not to use the courts, which has no bearing on the fact that this person is choosing to use the courts.

scbriml wrote:
Jamake1 wrote:
Well I can see that misogyny and sexism are alive and well on A. Net today...

Hey, male pilot vs woman on a.net? :sarcastic:

Summary: She's a skanky ho and deserved everything she got. Meanwhile, this poor pilot risks getting his career and reputation ruined by that bitch. Where's the proof?

:checkmark:

CCGPV wrote:
So why this thread out of all the other aviation related threads? Because its off-color? We talk about plane crashes, dead animals, fights, arrests, etc in civil aviation but why not this thread?

We talk about plane crashes because they are aviation related.
We talk about dead animals when they are aviation related.
We talk about fights and arrests when they are aviation related.

This case involves two people who happen to be pilots working for the same airline.
Beyond that, it is not aviation related.

CCGPV wrote:
I suspect its because you want to protect the brand of the civil aviation forum as being friendly.

I suspect you were given an answer you don't like so you're ignoring it.

Redd wrote:
wowlookplanes wrote:
Whole lotta misogyny here......

Because people aren't taking the woman at her word and willing to throw the man under the bus sans-proof? Because no man has lost his career/life/family over false rape allegations before......

So you're saying you don't see misogyny in this thread?


Its completely airline related. Two airline employees, while at work, had an issue. The airline is being sued and their policies will be discussed. The subject is totally related to the unique overnights that happen in the business.

But I'll accept the unclear policy as its the usual vagueness we keep seeing.

The thread title needs to be changed anyway as evidently its just two citizens engaged in a legal dispute.
Stay curious
 
Noise
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:30 pm

Some of you should read and listen to the stories of female Flight Attendants during the Golden Age of the jet age. Those stories are incredible. Let's just say both Pilots and female Flight Attendants were having a really, really, really good time back then.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:40 pm

Noise wrote:
Some of you should read and listen to the stories of female Flight Attendants during the Golden Age of the jet age. Those stories are incredible. Let's just say both Pilots and female Flight Attendants were having a really, really, really good time back then.

You are trying to apply consensual sex (etc.) situations to a non-consensual one?

And by the way, a lot of those good times are still happening today. I know I've heard the stories.

Tugg
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Noise
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:59 pm

Good times indeed.

I remember a Flight Attendant explaining that their layovers in one particular tropical destination would last days. Nothing to do at the hotel except...
 
Airstud
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:12 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
It's very rare for people to make up these stories


How do you know that?

How can anyone possibly know that?
Pancakes are delicious.
 
BobbyPSP
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:42 am

We don't know the full history. She could have reported it to HR soon after. It's been less than a year; if she didn't get satisfactory results internally, then she goes to an attorney.

Litigation is not easy; a proper lawsuit requires a lot of time and effort to gather evidence before being filed.

Just putting it out there so maybe some will back off a bit until more facts are known.
 
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NeBaNi
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:29 am

More details have emerged about this story, from The Seattle Times via the One Mile at a Time blog:
http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2018/03/14/alaska-airlines-pilot-raped/
  • On June 5, 2017, 39 year old Betty Pina operated a flight with the 50 year old captain to Minneapolis, and they went to the crew hotel together, and met in the executive lounge for drinks
  • The captain served her a glass of wine, she thought it tasted funny, and after a few sips she couldn’t keep her head up and felt the walls closing in on her — “From there, I don’t remember leaving the concierge room, the elevator ride or walking down the hallway to my room. When I woke up, everything was hazy. I remember seeing a figure, somebody pulling at my right ankle, and rolling over and trying to say ‘No.’ And then, I was out again.”
  • The next morning she found herself naked in the captain’s bed with vomit, she was racked by confusion and sickness, and didn’t want to lose her 17 year career in aviation, which is why she didn’t initially call 911
  • On the night of the incident, a flight attendant reported that he observed the captain walking in the hotel hallway with two glasses of wine and a woman who appeared to be in danger; he didn’t feel safe working with the pilot, so he apparently reported it to crew scheduling
  • The captain’s room was called regarding his fitness to fly, and he admitted that he had been drinking, so the captain and first officer were both taken off duty, and flown back to Seattle as passengers later that day
  • During that flight, the captain told the first officer “that [she had] been really drunk and had come on to him,” and he tried to persuade her to “get [their] stories straight”
  • Once back in Seattle, both pilots were questioned over the next two days by the airline and the union; initially she didn’t feel comfortable reporting the rape, but changed her mind after finding a handprint bruise on her left thigh, and other bruising, so she ended up reporting this to her union two days after the assault
  • The airline placed her on paid leave starting in June, telling her not to talk about the investigation
  • In early July she once again detailed this to a lawyer who was hired by the airline to investigate the incident, primarily to see if the pilots had been drinking within 10 hours of departure (and therefore should be disciplined), and not to actually investigate the rape
  • In August she was told that a review of the hotel’s security footage showed the captain forcibly kissing her in the elevator, and that she was incapacitated, and that it took 18 to 20 minutes to get from the elevator to the room, and she was putting up a fight
  • In December she was finally told she’d soon be able to return to work, and her crew chief asked her why she didn’t press charges; she was shocked by this, because until that moment she assumed that telling the company and supervisor was enough
  • She was returned to active duty in January

It's pretty damning if true, I'm shocked that she was asked to keep quiet about the investigation.
 
Noise
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:44 am

NeBaNi wrote:
More details have emerged about this story, from The Seattle Times via the One Mile at a Time blog:
http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2018/03/14/alaska-airlines-pilot-raped/
  • On June 5, 2017, 39 year old Betty Pina operated a flight with the 50 year old captain to Minneapolis, and they went to the crew hotel together, and met in the executive lounge for drinks
  • The captain served her a glass of wine, she thought it tasted funny, and after a few sips she couldn’t keep her head up and felt the walls closing in on her — “From there, I don’t remember leaving the concierge room, the elevator ride or walking down the hallway to my room. When I woke up, everything was hazy. I remember seeing a figure, somebody pulling at my right ankle, and rolling over and trying to say ‘No.’ And then, I was out again.”
  • The next morning she found herself naked in the captain’s bed with vomit, she was racked by confusion and sickness, and didn’t want to lose her 17 year career in aviation, which is why she didn’t initially call 911
  • On the night of the incident, a flight attendant reported that he observed the captain walking in the hotel hallway with two glasses of wine and a woman who appeared to be in danger; he didn’t feel safe working with the pilot, so he apparently reported it to crew scheduling
  • The captain’s room was called regarding his fitness to fly, and he admitted that he had been drinking, so the captain and first officer were both taken off duty, and flown back to Seattle as passengers later that day
  • During that flight, the captain told the first officer “that [she had] been really drunk and had come on to him,” and he tried to persuade her to “get [their] stories straight”
  • Once back in Seattle, both pilots were questioned over the next two days by the airline and the union; initially she didn’t feel comfortable reporting the rape, but changed her mind after finding a handprint bruise on her left thigh, and other bruising, so she ended up reporting this to her union two days after the assault
  • The airline placed her on paid leave starting in June, telling her not to talk about the investigation
  • In early July she once again detailed this to a lawyer who was hired by the airline to investigate the incident, primarily to see if the pilots had been drinking within 10 hours of departure (and therefore should be disciplined), and not to actually investigate the rape
  • In August she was told that a review of the hotel’s security footage showed the captain forcibly kissing her in the elevator, and that she was incapacitated, and that it took 18 to 20 minutes to get from the elevator to the room, and she was putting up a fight
  • In December she was finally told she’d soon be able to return to work, and her crew chief asked her why she didn’t press charges; she was shocked by this, because until that moment she assumed that telling the company and supervisor was enough
  • She was returned to active duty in January

It's pretty damning if true, I'm shocked that she was asked to keep quiet about the investigation.


If all of this is true, then this pilot is done sick man who deserves to go to prison. And good on her for putting up a fight.
 
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:03 am

Tugger wrote:
Why don't you ask your women friends? Go ahead, please, and they will tell you why.

Tugg


If you want the behavior to stop then it must be reported and the offenders called to account. It's not easy and women have to be assured their livings will be protected. Companies have to step up and let it be known that it will not be tolerated. If not we will just have more Harvey Weinsteins.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
Airstud
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:16 am

The bruising on her thigh and the hotel security footage seem pretty smoking-gun-like enough here...

(Separately, "a woman who appeared to be in danger" is testimony that needs fleshing out.)
Pancakes are delicious.
 
bennett123
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:18 am

This does seem to expensive explain a few points.

Hard to see how the pilot can explain this away.
 
Redd
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:24 am

Revelation wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I.e. from the weight of probability based on your personal experience...

If you look at the actual probability, women are far more likely to be the victims of rape and/or sexual abuse than men.


I doubt that, but say it is true. Say 40% of all males and 70% of all females have been violated in some way. I was certainly violated once, but I'm not suing anyone about it. That is reality and you cannot change it. Each person must decide whether to acknowledge what has happened and go forward, or stay in a self-blocking situation for now and maybe the rest of one's life. Your choice.

You're all over the place. First you reach a false conclusion based on probabilities, then you partition the population to make some point about the genders that isn't relevant, then you say that you chose not to use the courts, which has no bearing on the fact that this person is choosing to use the courts.

scbriml wrote:
Jamake1 wrote:
Well I can see that misogyny and sexism are alive and well on A. Net today...

Hey, male pilot vs woman on a.net? :sarcastic:

Summary: She's a skanky ho and deserved everything she got. Meanwhile, this poor pilot risks getting his career and reputation ruined by that bitch. Where's the proof?

:checkmark:

CCGPV wrote:
So why this thread out of all the other aviation related threads? Because its off-color? We talk about plane crashes, dead animals, fights, arrests, etc in civil aviation but why not this thread?

We talk about plane crashes because they are aviation related.
We talk about dead animals when they are aviation related.
We talk about fights and arrests when they are aviation related.

This case involves two people who happen to be pilots working for the same airline.
Beyond that, it is not aviation related.

CCGPV wrote:
I suspect its because you want to protect the brand of the civil aviation forum as being friendly.

I suspect you were given an answer you don't like so you're ignoring it.

Redd wrote:
wowlookplanes wrote:
Whole lotta misogyny here......

Because people aren't taking the woman at her word and willing to throw the man under the bus sans-proof? Because no man has lost his career/life/family over false rape allegations before......

So you're saying you don't see misogyny in this thread?


Not saying there isn't any, but a lot of men (and an increasing number if woman) are bitter about an automatic assumptuon of guilt with a male party im such an instance. When stories of false accusations have the power to ruin a man's life we really need to tread carefully.

Standing up for a neutral POV and not automatically assuming a man is guilty does not equal misogyny.
 
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c933103
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:35 am

NeBaNi wrote:
More details have emerged about this story, from The Seattle Times via the One Mile at a Time blog:
http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2018/03/14/alaska-airlines-pilot-raped/
  • On June 5, 2017, 39 year old Betty Pina operated a flight with the 50 year old captain to Minneapolis, and they went to the crew hotel together, and met in the executive lounge for drinks
  • The captain served her a glass of wine, she thought it tasted funny, and after a few sips she couldn’t keep her head up and felt the walls closing in on her — “From there, I don’t remember leaving the concierge room, the elevator ride or walking down the hallway to my room. When I woke up, everything was hazy. I remember seeing a figure, somebody pulling at my right ankle, and rolling over and trying to say ‘No.’ And then, I was out again.”
  • The next morning she found herself naked in the captain’s bed with vomit, she was racked by confusion and sickness, and didn’t want to lose her 17 year career in aviation, which is why she didn’t initially call 911
  • On the night of the incident, a flight attendant reported that he observed the captain walking in the hotel hallway with two glasses of wine and a woman who appeared to be in danger; he didn’t feel safe working with the pilot, so he apparently reported it to crew scheduling
  • The captain’s room was called regarding his fitness to fly, and he admitted that he had been drinking, so the captain and first officer were both taken off duty, and flown back to Seattle as passengers later that day
  • During that flight, the captain told the first officer “that [she had] been really drunk and had come on to him,” and he tried to persuade her to “get [their] stories straight”
  • Once back in Seattle, both pilots were questioned over the next two days by the airline and the union; initially she didn’t feel comfortable reporting the rape, but changed her mind after finding a handprint bruise on her left thigh, and other bruising, so she ended up reporting this to her union two days after the assault
  • The airline placed her on paid leave starting in June, telling her not to talk about the investigation
  • In early July she once again detailed this to a lawyer who was hired by the airline to investigate the incident, primarily to see if the pilots had been drinking within 10 hours of departure (and therefore should be disciplined), and not to actually investigate the rape
  • In August she was told that a review of the hotel’s security footage showed the captain forcibly kissing her in the elevator, and that she was incapacitated, and that it took 18 to 20 minutes to get from the elevator to the room, and she was putting up a fight
  • In December she was finally told she’d soon be able to return to work, and her crew chief asked her why she didn’t press charges; she was shocked by this, because until that moment she assumed that telling the company and supervisor was enough
  • She was returned to active duty in January

It's pretty damning if true, I'm shocked that she was asked to keep quiet about the investigation.

These are details that can be found out to support the charges from the victim unlike certain posters above that assumed these evidences would not exists
-----
Is the way AS handling the incident rather nonoptimal? It seems like they should have cooperate with law enforcement instead of telling her not to talk about it
Last edited by c933103 on Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
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bennett123
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Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:47 am

bennett123 wrote:
This does seem to explain a few points.

Hard to see how the pilot can explain this away.
 
wowlookplanes
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:59 pm

Re: Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her

Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:01 am

Redd wrote:

Standing up for a neutral POV and not automatically assuming a man is guilty does not equal misogyny.


If this is the main gist of what you've read earlier in this thread, I'd suggest you may not be reading critically enough. Lotta anger being taken out on women is what I read....

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