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alberchico
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Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:01 am

http://autoweek.com/article/new-york-au ... show-debut

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/2019- ... -info-news

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du6f-W0aU-I

Granted it's a very attractive car but why is Kia, better known for cheap cars for people on a budget moving into this category ? In the U.S. the earlier version has been a dud and even in Asian markets its going to get beaten by Toyota and Hyundai.

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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:45 am

I do have to say the track record of brands introducing an upmarket car to banish their cheap runabout image isn't exactly stellar (the VW Phaeton comes to mind).

Maybe Kia doesn't want to invest in building a luxury brand the way that the Japanese brands & its own sister company Hyundai did.
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:47 am

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jetwet1
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:43 am

You may want to look at Kia's range and their prices, they are no longer the bargain basement brand, they put out some very nice cars.

Main issue is still the resale value, best way to buy a 2018 Kia, wait for the lease returns in 2020
 
luckyone
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:46 pm

alberchico wrote:
In the U.S. the earlier version has been a dud and even in Asian markets its going to get beaten by Toyota and Hyundai.

You ask an excellent question. But it's also worth pointing out that the K900 shares underpinings and mechanicals with Hyundai products that are now badged as Genesis (G80/G90), so it's not a stand-alone model from a developmental standpoint. The Kia Stinger does as well, and its getting rave reviews in the automotive press. Though it does not cost $60,000, it shares its bones with the upcoming Genesis G70, so Kia is making an upmarket push. As such, it may not cost Kia much to have it in their showrooms as long as it's selling adequately from Hyundai/Genesis dealers. However, the person who's purchasing the K900 probably isn't an impulse buyer and someone who's done their homework and crunched numbers. Time will tell if Hyundai/Kia decide to keep an upmarket vehicle on their volume brands, but they are following a path forged by of all people, Toyota, who has kept the higher end Avalon in their profile even while they have been pushing Lexus into the cost stratosphere.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
I do have to say the track record of brands introducing an upmarket car to banish their cheap runabout image isn't exactly stellar (the VW Phaeton comes to mind).

Maybe Kia doesn't want to invest in building a luxury brand the way that the Japanese brands & its own sister company Hyundai did.

Indeed not the best business case for VW. VW already had two in house luxury brands (Audi and Bentley) that shared the Phaeton's platform so it was in-house competition. Particularly the cost difference between the A8 and the Phaeton was negligible, so the people nuts enough to drop that kind of cash on a vehicle of course went for the badge with the panache. Hyundai/Kia doesn't have that system in place, though they are building it.
 
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Jetsgo
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:14 am

Why did Toyota launch Lexus and the LS400 in 1989? The Koreans have to start somewhere and so far Hyundai and Genesis aren’t fully there. I’d wager this is another dart at the board to see what sticks with consumers.
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CCGPV
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:19 am

Weren't Phaetons like $85,000 in the late 90's/early2000's? Way more than the A8's are today, right?

They were the types of cars well off people with actual taste had. Not flashy or even recognizable- but they knew what they were driving.
Stay curious
 
luckyone
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:19 am

CCGPV wrote:
Weren't Phaetons like $85,000 in the late 90's/early2000's? Way more than the A8's are today, right?

They were the types of cars well off people with actual taste had. Not flashy or even recognizable- but they knew what they were driving.

The A8 and Phaeton historically were priced very close together in their base models, and prices for both models ballooned proportionately with the number of cylinders under the hood. High dollar, high spec Phaetons weren’t much cheaper than comparable equipped A8s.

https://www.thecarconnection.com/car-co ... aeton_2004

Today an A8 starts north of $80,000.

The last time both were available for sale simultaneously in the UK they were both just a touch more expensive than £50,000 for base models, which no one but fleet buyers actually ever purchases.
 
CCGPV
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:31 am

luckyone wrote:
CCGPV wrote:
Weren't Phaetons like $85,000 in the late 90's/early2000's? Way more than the A8's are today, right?

They were the types of cars well off people with actual taste had. Not flashy or even recognizable- but they knew what they were driving.

The A8 and Phaeton historically were priced very close together in their base models, and prices for both models ballooned proportionately with the number of cylinders under the hood. High dollar, high spec Phaetons weren’t much cheaper than comparable equipped A8s.

https://www.thecarconnection.com/car-co ... aeton_2004

Today an A8 starts north of $80,000.

The last time both were available for sale simultaneously in the UK they were both just a touch more expensive than £50,000 for base models, which no one but fleet buyers actually ever purchases.


Were/Are there any really anything amazing about them at the time that justified their pricing? What could a 12 cylinder car offer the average Connecticut driver?
Stay curious
 
luckyone
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:51 am

CCGPV wrote:
luckyone wrote:
CCGPV wrote:
Weren't Phaetons like $85,000 in the late 90's/early2000's? Way more than the A8's are today, right?

They were the types of cars well off people with actual taste had. Not flashy or even recognizable- but they knew what they were driving.

The A8 and Phaeton historically were priced very close together in their base models, and prices for both models ballooned proportionately with the number of cylinders under the hood. High dollar, high spec Phaetons weren’t much cheaper than comparable equipped A8s.

https://www.thecarconnection.com/car-co ... aeton_2004

Today an A8 starts north of $80,000.

The last time both were available for sale simultaneously in the UK they were both just a touch more expensive than £50,000 for base models, which no one but fleet buyers actually ever purchases.


Were/Are there any really anything amazing about them at the time that justified their pricing? What could a 12 cylinder car offer the average Connecticut driver?

Nope. Hence why the car seriously missed its sales targets. For all his brilliance Dr. Piech couldn’t figure out that few people would be willing to be Audi prices for an Audi badged as a VW.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:26 am

luckyone wrote:
CCGPV wrote:
luckyone wrote:
The A8 and Phaeton historically were priced very close together in their base models, and prices for both models ballooned proportionately with the number of cylinders under the hood. High dollar, high spec Phaetons weren’t much cheaper than comparable equipped A8s.

https://www.thecarconnection.com/car-co ... aeton_2004

Today an A8 starts north of $80,000.

The last time both were available for sale simultaneously in the UK they were both just a touch more expensive than £50,000 for base models, which no one but fleet buyers actually ever purchases.


Were/Are there any really anything amazing about them at the time that justified their pricing? What could a 12 cylinder car offer the average Connecticut driver?

Nope. Hence why the car seriously missed its sales targets. For all his brilliance Dr. Piech couldn’t figure out that few people would be willing to be Audi prices for an Audi badged as a VW.


Other way around it was VW badged Audi, but people are pretty happy to stump up for a VW Bentley or a VW Porsche.
 
luckyone
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:27 am

Kiwirob wrote:
luckyone wrote:
CCGPV wrote:

Were/Are there any really anything amazing about them at the time that justified their pricing? What could a 12 cylinder car offer the average Connecticut driver?

Nope. Hence why the car seriously missed its sales targets. For all his brilliance Dr. Piech couldn’t figure out that few people would be willing to be Audi prices for an Audi badged as a VW.


Other way around it was VW badged Audi, but people are pretty happy to stump up for a VW Bentley or a VW Porsche.

Indeed. It’s crazy no matter which way you slice it when you’re talking about spending that kind of money. My grandmother used to say “some people have more money than they do brains.”
 
tommy1808
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:33 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
I do have to say the track record of brands introducing an upmarket car to banish their cheap runabout image isn't exactly stellar (the VW Phaeton comes to mind).


Audi would be the obvious counter example though, when they made the Audi V8 pretty much anyone was wondering why they make an upper class car, when the first A8 was made it looked quite different and today hardly anyone remembers the craftsman car image they wants had.

best regards
Thomas
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:34 am

tommy1808 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
I do have to say the track record of brands introducing an upmarket car to banish their cheap runabout image isn't exactly stellar (the VW Phaeton comes to mind).


Audi would be the obvious counter example though, when they made the Audi V8 pretty much anyone was wondering why they make an upper class car, when the first A8 was made it looked quite different and today hardly anyone remembers the craftsman car image they wants had.

best regards
Thomas


Audi had a budget brand image back then?

All my life I always thought of Audi as a luxury brand (Still remember ads about their Procon Ten system in Reader's Digest when I was a kid).
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tommy1808
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:59 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Audi had a budget brand image back then?


Yup, Audi was a budget brand, their Audi 50 was their Fiat 127..... the Audi 80 was the car your granddad or some old uncle would drive, the 100 Avant was the car your craftsman drove when fixing your pipes. The Audi 200 was pretty much the first version they tried to upsell before going upper class with the V8, a failure falling well short of planned production numbers.

Before the Audi 100 C4 modell Audi wasn´t a serious option for people willing to shell out real money for a car.

best regards
Thomas
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jetwet1
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:49 am

CCGPV wrote:
Were/Are there any really anything amazing about them at the time that justified their pricing? What could a 12 cylinder car offer the average Connecticut driver?


I had a US spec W12 for a few years, where it really excelled was as a highway cruiser, fantastic car for a long drive.

Where it failed was eye watering bills if something went wrong with it.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:37 am

CCGPV wrote:
Weren't Phaetons like $85,000 in the late 90's/early2000's?


Yes, you can get a used one for $8000.

Hyundai (which partly owns Kia) has Genisys, now as a separate brand.

Top of the line Toyota Highlander costs more than Lexus.

There is no clear explanation other than a combination of ego and runaway projects.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:09 pm

At the end of the day, its still a KIA.
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bagoldex
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:29 pm

CCGPV wrote:
luckyone wrote:
CCGPV wrote:
Weren't Phaetons like $85,000 in the late 90's/early2000's? Way more than the A8's are today, right?

They were the types of cars well off people with actual taste had. Not flashy or even recognizable- but they knew what they were driving.

The A8 and Phaeton historically were priced very close together in their base models, and prices for both models ballooned proportionately with the number of cylinders under the hood. High dollar, high spec Phaetons weren’t much cheaper than comparable equipped A8s.

https://www.thecarconnection.com/car-co ... aeton_2004

Today an A8 starts north of $80,000.

The last time both were available for sale simultaneously in the UK they were both just a touch more expensive than £50,000 for base models, which no one but fleet buyers actually ever purchases.


Were/Are there any really anything amazing about them at the time that justified their pricing? What could a 12 cylinder car offer the average Connecticut driver?


Having owned twelve cylinders in Massachusetts and New York, an astronomical insurance bill and unless you're over 50, a target on your back for cops.
 
AA747123
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:00 am

IMHO if Kia and Hyundai (Genesis) wanted their high end luxury carlines to be successful they should have separated them from the mainline brand. Toyota separated Lexus, Honda separated Acura, and Nissan did Infinity. Part of the experience in buying a luxury brand starts with the dealership experience, pretty hard to sell a $60,000.00 car right next to a $9995 Kia Rio...
 
CCGPV
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:38 am

bagoldex wrote:
CCGPV wrote:
luckyone wrote:
The A8 and Phaeton historically were priced very close together in their base models, and prices for both models ballooned proportionately with the number of cylinders under the hood. High dollar, high spec Phaetons weren’t much cheaper than comparable equipped A8s.

https://www.thecarconnection.com/car-co ... aeton_2004

Today an A8 starts north of $80,000.

The last time both were available for sale simultaneously in the UK they were both just a touch more expensive than £50,000 for base models, which no one but fleet buyers actually ever purchases.


Were/Are there any really anything amazing about them at the time that justified their pricing? What could a 12 cylinder car offer the average Connecticut driver?


Having owned twelve cylinders in Massachusetts and New York, an astronomical insurance bill and unless you're over 50, a target on your back for cops.


What was your thought process for buying such a large displacement vehicle? I can understand an 8 cylinder car but 12? What does that offer?
Stay curious
 
bagoldex
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:53 am

CCGPV wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
CCGPV wrote:

Were/Are there any really anything amazing about them at the time that justified their pricing? What could a 12 cylinder car offer the average Connecticut driver?


Having owned twelve cylinders in Massachusetts and New York, an astronomical insurance bill and unless you're over 50, a target on your back for cops.


What was your thought process for buying such a large displacement vehicle? I can understand an 8 cylinder car but 12? What does that offer?


There wasn't much of a thought process. The first one was a hand-me-down from my father and in the case of the second, I had inherited some money and bought it on a whim. I only kept it for a year as I was spending far more time in London than New York and hardly drove it.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:33 am

AA747123 wrote:
IMHO if Kia and Hyundai (Genesis) wanted their high end luxury carlines to be successful they should have separated them from the mainline brand. Toyota separated Lexus, Honda separated Acura, and Nissan did Infinity. Part of the experience in buying a luxury brand starts with the dealership experience, pretty hard to sell a $60,000.00 car right next to a $9995 Kia Rio...

Acura has a limited market within a few countries, most countries the vehicles are sold as Honda.

CCGPV wrote:
What was your thought process for buying such a large displacement vehicle? I can understand an 8 cylinder car but 12? What does that offer?

4 more cylinders? :bigthumbsup:

What does an 8 cylinder offer over a 6? What does a 6 cylinder offer over a 4?
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seb146
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:42 am

There is a high end sedan by Hyundai, isn't there? Not Genesis but a higher end. There were two people at my old gym in STS that each had one. The hood ornament was a dead give away. So what if Kia wants to sell a high end vehicle? What is a high end General Motors? A Cadillac.
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Aesma
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:46 am

luckyone wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Nope. Hence why the car seriously missed its sales targets. For all his brilliance Dr. Piech couldn’t figure out that few people would be willing to be Audi prices for an Audi badged as a VW.


Other way around it was VW badged Audi, but people are pretty happy to stump up for a VW Bentley or a VW Porsche.

Indeed. It’s crazy no matter which way you slice it when you’re talking about spending that kind of money. My grandmother used to say “some people have more money than they do brains.”


Didn't the US invent this though, with all kinds of cars and brands being in fact the same thing ?
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luckyone
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:56 pm

Aesma wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Other way around it was VW badged Audi, but people are pretty happy to stump up for a VW Bentley or a VW Porsche.

Indeed. It’s crazy no matter which way you slice it when you’re talking about spending that kind of money. My grandmother used to say “some people have more money than they do brains.”


Didn't the US invent this though, with all kinds of cars and brands being in fact the same thing ?

So? That doesn't really change much about what I said does it?
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:45 pm

CCGPV wrote:

What was your thought process for buying such a large displacement vehicle? I can understand an 8 cylinder car but 12? What does that offer?


A V12 engine doesn't necessarily have to have large displacement. For example, Jaguar was installing a 5.3 litre V12 into it's cars for decades. BMW had some 5.0 litre V12's too. That would be a fairly common displacement around here.
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ha763
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:50 am

seb146 wrote:
There is a high end sedan by Hyundai, isn't there? Not Genesis but a higher end. There were two people at my old gym in STS that each had one. The hood ornament was a dead give away. So what if Kia wants to sell a high end vehicle? What is a high end General Motors? A Cadillac.


Not anymore in North America. You are probably referring to the Hyundai Equus, which was larger than the Hyundai Genesis. It was replaced with a model under the Genesis brand back in 2016. The larger Genesis G90 is the successor to the Equus.
 
Airstud
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:04 am

Aesma wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Other way around it was VW badged Audi, but people are pretty happy to stump up for a VW Bentley or a VW Porsche.

Indeed. It’s crazy no matter which way you slice it when you’re talking about spending that kind of money. My grandmother used to say “some people have more money than they do brains.”


Didn't the US invent this though, with all kinds of cars and brands being in fact the same thing ?


Platform sharing results in different models of different brands being kinda the same thing, not in fact totally the same thing.

(If platform sharing is what you're talking about. Perhaps tain't.)
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tommy1808
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:57 am

Airstud wrote:
Aesma wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Indeed. It’s crazy no matter which way you slice it when you’re talking about spending that kind of money. My grandmother used to say “some people have more money than they do brains.”


Didn't the US invent this though, with all kinds of cars and brands being in fact the same thing ?


Platform sharing results in different models of different brands being kinda the same thing, not in fact totally the same thing.

(If platform sharing is what you're talking about. Perhaps tain't.)


if i recall correctly there was a time when the desire for economy of scale in the US was at the point where different cars from different brands shared very visible elements up to crucial design items like doors. The Plattform system, same parts under the skin, but different skin, as we have it today was the new and improved version of using same parts to safe money and make really ugly cars.

best regards
Thomas
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Why is Kia making a 60,000 luxury sedan ?

Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:04 pm

Airstud wrote:
Aesma wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Indeed. It’s crazy no matter which way you slice it when you’re talking about spending that kind of money. My grandmother used to say “some people have more money than they do brains.”


Didn't the US invent this though, with all kinds of cars and brands being in fact the same thing ?


Platform sharing results in different models of different brands being kinda the same thing, not in fact totally the same thing.

(If platform sharing is what you're talking about. Perhaps tain't.)


What he meant would be badge engineering. You know, Ford Crown Victoria -> Mercury Grand Marquis like. And it is still alive and well.
Platform sharing would be more like Ford Crown Victoria -> Lincoln Town Car
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