texdravid
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French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:21 pm

No handshake, no citizenship.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/21/worl ... d=tw-share

Another victory for secularism, in France. Wonderful. Proud of France, which is not always thought of highly by American ultra conservatives like me.

If you do not believe in secularism, believe in liberal sexual and reproductive and gender rights, and finally do not want to learn the culture and language of your new western country, just go back and stay in your own country.

Not only does this apply to, obviously, middle easterners in Europe, I would argue that this applies to Hispanics in the USA and learning the English language. I would also add you better believe in the USA’s free market economic system.
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L410Turbolet
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:50 pm

texdravid wrote:
Another victory for secularism, in France.


A feel-good victory... in a war that was lost 30 years ago.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:31 am

texdravid wrote:
I would also add you better believe in the USA’s free market economic system.

It's only free when it suits the party line. Otherwise, there's no qualms about interfering with the "free market" every once in a while.
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texdravid
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:10 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
texdravid wrote:
Another victory for secularism, in France.


A feel-good victory... in a war that was lost 30 years ago.



Yes, alas, so true. So sad.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
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zkojq
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:57 am

France is wonderful. Needs to get more credit.
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CitizenJustin
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:11 pm

I have a feeling this guys obsessively searches articles for hours on end that paint Liberals in a bad light. His negativity is palpable and bias ranks off the charts. And it’s all for nothing, other than to get a rise out of the forum. I’d say someone like that doesn’t have much going on in life.

An American tragedy. Another one lost down the far-right black hole.
 
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Aesma
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:47 pm

There used to be no rule because people were naturally conforming to local norms. They were even often going above and beyond, for example my mother changed her surname from Maria to Marie. I had a Vietnamese friend in high school that was called Arsène, a surname he chose for himself, as a fan of Arsène Lupin.
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LMP737
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:32 pm

texdravid wrote:
I would also add you better believe in the USA’s free market economic system.


You are naive if you think the USA has a free market system.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:43 am

Huh, I thought "conservative" ideology was rooted in religion? I always associated secularism with "liberal" ideology.
 
P1aneMad
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:21 pm

Good decision by the French!
 
JJJ
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:15 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Huh, I thought "conservative" ideology was rooted in religion? I always associated secularism with "liberal" ideology.


In a country where secularity is enshrined in the constitution, being conservative means getting religion out of the public sphere, too.

Many ideas spoused by conservatives today were nasty liberal stuff a few years or decades back.
 
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cedars747
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:21 pm

texdravid wrote:
No handshake, no citizenship.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/21/worl ... d=tw-share

Another victory for secularism, in France. Wonderful. Proud of France, which is not always thought of highly by American ultra conservatives like me.

If you do not believe in secularism, believe in liberal sexual and reproductive and gender rights, and finally do not want to learn the culture and language of your new western country, just go back and stay in your own country.

Not only does this apply to, obviously, middle easterners in Europe, I would argue that this applies to Hispanics in the USA and learning the English language. I would also add you better believe in the USA’s free market economic system.

French did not handshake Algerians when they colonized them! they should not complain about the inconvenience that may arise and deal with the reality that millions of Algerians are allready French citizens.
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion /لدي شغف للطيران / I have a passion for aviation /Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart/ J'ai une passion pour l'aviation.
 
Olddog
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:28 pm

You are welcome to get her a green card :)
 
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cedars747
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:14 pm

Olddog wrote:
You are welcome to get her a green card :)

Very kind of you :)
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion /لدي شغف للطيران / I have a passion for aviation /Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart/ J'ai une passion pour l'aviation.
 
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casinterest
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:07 pm

Interesting thread. The French used a law designed to restrict Religious Freedom, and TexrDavid is fully enthusiastic about it?

This same law could be used to prevent prayer in schools, and the ten commandments in courtrooms.

https://www.economist.com/open-future/2 ... itizenship


It is not just Islam where women refuse to shake the hand of a man.

I have encountered Orthodox Jews that follow the same philosophy.

The US was founded on the principal of religious freedom, so such a law will not be brought here.

Also , the OP should note that the US has no official language.
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Aesma
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:23 pm

There are indeed no prayer in schools (except in religious schools) and no 10 commandments in courtrooms, obviously !

My younger sister went to a Catholic junior high (collège) and high school (lycée) and even there religion was optional, in fact plenty of muslims go to that school, some because girls are allowed to wear a hijab.

cedars747 : Algerians expelled the French from their territory (rightly so), why should the French welcome Algerians here with no condition ? Don't you fear a backlash with millions expelled back (or worse) ?
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Flighty
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:31 pm

There are some who would say that we should embrace different value systems. But of course, that is a contradiction. You can only really embrace other value systems if you have no value system yourself. It would be a shame if France had no cultural values left whatsoever.
 
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cedars747
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:45 pm

Aesma wrote:
There are indeed no prayer in schools (except in religious schools) and no 10 commandments in courtrooms, obviously !

My younger sister went to a Catholic junior high (collège) and high school (lycée) and even there religion was optional, in fact plenty of muslims go to that school, some because girls are allowed to wear a hijab.

cedars747 : Algerians expelled the French from their territory (rightly so), why should the French welcome Algerians here with no condition ? Don't you fear a backlash with millions expelled back (or worse) ?

I mean it's too late for France to fix the problem in a such way.
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LMP737
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:18 pm

texdravid wrote:
No handshake, no citizenship.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/21/worl ... d=tw-share

Another victory for secularism, in France. Wonderful. Proud of France, which is not always thought of highly by American ultra conservatives like me.


Is that because they did not want to send other peoples kids off to war in Iraq like American ultra conservatives were?

texdravid wrote:
American ultra conservatives like me

If you do not believe in secularism, believe in liberal sexual and reproductive and gender rights and finally do not want to learn the culture and language of your new western country, just go back and stay in your own country.,


Now there's two contradictory statements. Most "ultra" conservatives do not seem to be big fans of secularism. They view is as a liberal plot to undermine gods role in this country. As for liberal sexual, reproductive and gender rights their views on this tend to be no sex before marriage, abstinence only sex ed, no abortion and women are subservient to men.

texdravid wrote:
, I would argue that this applies to Hispanics in the USA and learning the English language. I would also add you better believe in the USA’s free market economic system.


Would it be more acceptable to you if they were blue eye, blond hair Norwegian instead of black hair brown eyed Hispanics? Quite frankly all you are doing is repeating the same drivel that has been said in this country the past two hundred plus years about every immigrant group that followed yours.
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Kiwirob
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:17 pm

LMP737 wrote:
Would it be more acceptable to you if they were blue eye, blond hair Norwegian instead of black hair brown eyed Hispanics?


You need to go to Norway, I’m married to a blue eyed blond haired Norwegian but apart from her I don’t know many others.
 
LMP737
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:38 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
You need to go to Norway, I’m married to a blue eyed blond haired Norwegian but apart from her I don’t know many others.


You're not getting the point I was trying to make.
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Kiwirob
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:06 am

LMP737 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
You need to go to Norway, I’m married to a blue eyed blond haired Norwegian but apart from her I don’t know many others.


You're not getting the point I was trying to make.


I do get your point, my point is the generalisation that Norwegians are blond with blue eyes is far from true.
 
sevenair
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:26 am

France, a pivotal part of the EU and bastion of (so called) 'liberal' values is one of the most nationalistic places and this is an appalling act of racism just like their grotesque ban on veils. They also class Scientology as a 'cult'.

Given France's power within the EU and it's desire to create a federal United States of Europe then I'm deeply concerned for the right of religious expression in a future Europe.

Scary stuff.
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Aesma
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:59 am

Not sure if serious ah ah.

Scientology is obviously a cult, or a joke, created by a science fiction author, probably to have a good laugh, on top of money and women, that is.
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DeltaMD90
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:01 pm

Sevenair is joking (or insane.)

I was surprised to read about how nationalistic the article makes the French sound. I mean don't get me wrong, I think there should be some minimum level of assimilation and oppression should not be tolerated, but they seem pretty forceful on what is French and what is not. Generalizing here, but I thought France was more liberal and nationalism a lot more to the right, and diversity is supposed to be embraced blah blah

I wonder how a lot of that would fly in the States. I think a lot of it would be decried as racist
 
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Aesma
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:38 pm

Nationalism has very little to do with it, it's cultural. Religion had too big a place in French society for too long, so in 1905 it has been "put in its place" and it must stay there. It used to be only the Catholic religion (with judaism and protestantism also having been taken into consideration at the time) but now the same laws have the same consequence for Islam. During the peak of North African immigration there was no problem, partly because Islam at the time was more liberal, for example young women didn't wear a veil.

Then in the 80's things changed, and the first time a girl wore a veil at school, it was a statement, so since then things got complicated.
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LMP737
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:57 pm

Kiwirob wrote:

I do get your point, my point is the generalisation that Norwegians are blond with blue eyes is far from true.


No, you were trying to be clever.
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L410Turbolet
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:03 pm

sevenair wrote:
Given France's power within the EU and it's desire to create a federal United States of Europe

Rest assured that if French have their way, the "federal" EU will be anything but federal.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:32 pm

LMP737 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

I do get your point, my point is the generalisation that Norwegians are blond with blue eyes is far from true.


No, you were trying to be clever.


I was right and and I still am right.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:56 pm

Careful France. They EU may get involved and force you to change your mind
 
Kiwirob
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:29 pm

I don’t know where they are hiding because there are none anywhere near where I live. We just get Somalis who are next to useless, they don’t want to work, that’s why they have women.
 
LMP737
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:02 am

Kiwirob wrote:

No I was just correcting your ignorance, it was a gross generalisation, it’s like saying all Americans are fat and stupid.


Sarcasm seems to be lost on you.
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DeltaMD90
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:10 am

I'd be lying to say I haven't made any off topic posts, but can you two talk about Norwegians via PM? It's really a silly back and forth
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:33 pm

Look up Nicholas Chauvin, French and he gave us chauvinism. The French are muliticultural, as long as one recognizes their mission to civilize us non-Frenchmen. See all the French military still in former colonies.

GF
 
tommy1808
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:47 am

sevenair wrote:
They also class Scientology as a 'cult'.


The difference between a cult and a church is pretty much only the size.
Here they are classified as a for profit company and don't get any benefits religious communities get. And they shouldn't get those either for any spending that isn't directly charity.

the right of religious expression in a future Europe.


There is no right to religious expression.

"1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights"

She can do all that unimpeded. She just won't get French citizenship if she doesn't immerse into French culture to a certain degree.

She has those rights when she is a) alone or b) in a community of others sharing this believe/culture/tradition. Anyone not part of a) or b) doesn't have to care for a second what her imaginary friend or its henchmen on earth tell her to do.

Freedom of religion mostly means the right to be free of other people's religion, that is why the right was recognized.

noviorbis77 wrote:
Careful France. They EU may get involved and force you to change your mind


No, it won't. Human rights are not one of the responsibilities of the EU. Again you demonstrate your lack of knowledge about the EU, what it does and how it works.

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Generalizing here, but I thought France was more liberal and nationalism a lot more to the right, and diversity is supposed to be embraced blah blah


France is very liberal, it only expects you to extend the same courtesy to everybody else. Liberte is a two-way street, and doesn't include a right to be rude.
They don't go as far as we do, where being offensive is a criminal offense, but France can't be perfect either.

texdravid wrote:
No handshake, no citizenship.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/21/worl ... d=tw-share

Another victory for secularism, in France.


Dang... That there will be a day where I agree with you.

Aesma wrote:
There are indeed no prayer in schools (except in religious schools) and no 10 commandments in courtrooms, obviously !

My younger sister went to a Catholic junior high (collège) and high school (lycée) and even there religion was optional, in fact plenty of muslims go to that school, some because girls are allowed to wear a hijab.


I like religion as a regular school subject though, in the same sense and for the same reason I like history in school.

Sunday schools in France can be bat shit crazy fundamentalist places, and parents cam easily shield their kids from getting some facts in.

Best regards
Thomas
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Olddog
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:51 am

What are Sunday schools? Being french I am curious as I have never heard about that ?

Do you speak of catechism?
 
tommy1808
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:27 pm

Olddog wrote:
What are Sunday schools? Being french I am curious as I have never heard about that ?

Do you speak of catechism?


Something like that I would guess. Churches setting up classes for kids before or after mess on Sundays. Apparently fundamentalist sects do that too and fill their heads with stuff that isn't fit for any modern society, hatred for LGBQT for example, or stuff that has simply no basis in reality, that other Christian groups worship satan, that all muslims want to kill all non-muslims..... basically like what Muslim extremist groups do.
I think that only flies in places where church and parents are the only, guaranteed to get in contact with, source of information about religion.

Best regards
Thomas
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OA412
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:01 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
texdravid wrote:
I would also add you better believe in the USA’s free market economic system.

It's only free when it suits the party line. Otherwise, there's no qualms about interfering with the "free market" every once in a while.

LMP737 wrote:
You are naive if you think the USA has a free market system.

:checkmark: As a favorite professor was fond of saying, there's no such thing as the free market, there are just different levels of regulation. The US system is anything but free market.

sevenair wrote:
They also class Scientology as a 'cult'.

As they should since that's what Scientology is. The United States would love to do the same thing. It's also a giant money-making scam. They were under Federal investigation for tax evasion, but the Feds caved and granted them tax-free church status instead.
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Olddog
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:07 pm

It is not on sundays, that 's why I was confused. When I was a young boy we had catechism, if we wanted, on wednesday as usually we were off school that afternoon. I stopped to attend at 10 years old as sport was funnier :)
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:47 pm

As a favorite professor was fond of saying, there's no such thing as the free market, there are just different levels of regulation. The US system is anything but free market.


Free markets are, of course, regulated. The actors in a free market are regulated by their limited resources to rationally fulfill their unlimited desires. That’s not a difference in level, but in kind. Regulation implies choices, not of the actor’s, imposed by outside actors on the market. I can’t afford a private jet due to my resources, that’s a form of regulation, but not the same as the state denying some or all of the possible buyers the ability to own/use one.

GF
 
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Aesma
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Re: French deny citizenship to woman who wouldn’t shake hands

Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:22 pm

Olddog wrote:
It is not on sundays, that 's why I was confused. When I was a young boy we had catechism, if we wanted, on wednesday as usually we were off school that afternoon. I stopped to attend at 10 years old as sport was funnier :)


Yeah, but you're both right, there are also "classes" before the Sunday Mass for children, I have attended some, on top of catechism on Wednesdays that was done by parents most of the time.

Where I live my parish is very liberal so I was only taught the "good sides" of religion, none of that stuff about abortion, hell, nothing about homosexuality... Then I went to the World Youth Day 2002 in Toronto and met the north american Catholics, what a big shock ! I never set foot in a church after that, except for funerals and tourism.
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