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flyingturtle
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 3:07 pm

winstonlegthigh wrote:
They should take a closer look at the Polish government plane that went down. I'm sure there will be no surprises there, either.


Very clear case of CFIT. I'm 100% sure of that fact. The Polish can bawl all the time about Russian ATC, but it's always the responsibility of the pilots not to collide with the ground. The errors by Russian ATC were negligible.

David
Last edited by flyingturtle on Thu May 24, 2018 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
RJWNL
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 3:15 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
Here, negligence is easier to prove than intent.


In rare cases gross negligence can be equated to intent under Dutch law. (Dolus eventualis)
Last edited by RJWNL on Thu May 24, 2018 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ikramerica
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 3:21 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
salttee wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
Topple assad, wean the EU of russian gas, etc.
Toppling Assad would be like shooting ourselves in the foot. Because the Russians are pigs we should get ourselves bogged down in the ME supporting the Israeli expansion program?

Hell, if you want to go that way why not invade Iraq again?

I guess the army of keyboard warriors seen around will scare the russians to death! abouth the gas... Russians can keep it and sell it to india an china will be very happy to buy it. how do you heat your homes next winter?

Cow farts?

Russia should have owned up to the accident at the time. Instead they tried to blame Ukrainian opposition to their control. Dumb.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 3:26 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
salttee wrote:
Toppling Assad would be like shooting ourselves in the foot. Because the Russians are pigs we should get ourselves bogged down in the ME supporting the Israeli expansion program?

Hell, if you want to go that way why not invade Iraq again?

I guess the army of keyboard warriors seen around will scare the russians to death! abouth the gas... Russians can keep it and sell it to india an china will be very happy to buy it. how do you heat your homes next winter?

Cow farts?

Russia should have owned up to the accident at the time. Instead they tried to blame Ukrainian opposition to their control. Dumb.


Exactly. Not any surprise in these findings. IIRC, the tweets and videos at the time painted the picture pretty clearly.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
mcg
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 3:44 pm

vhtje wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Wow, if this is true, then it means a state actor, Russia, committed an act of war on an innocent civilian target.


What motive does/did Russia have for this horrific act? Was it a deliberate act or did they mistake the MH 777 for something else, i.e. a military transporter? To me, it seems hard to believe a professional military outfit does not have the wherewithal to tell a civilian aircraft from a military one (as opposed to some rouge rebels who managed to get hold of some professional-grade military weapons and pointed it at random grey aircraft in the sky).

This alone suggests the action was deliberate. Which gets me back to my first question: why would Russia do this?


You'll recall that the crew of the USS Vincennes was unable to tell an A300 on a routine civil aviation route from an F-14 in attack mode. It would seem the crew of the Vincennes was a 'professional military outfit'. The point being that wars are complicated ugly things that seldom are as cut and dried as we might imagine.
 
Chasensfo
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 3:46 pm

The USA shot down a pacaked Iranian A300 about 30 years ago, Iran didn't exactly invade America and the USA wasn't exactly overly apologetic on the matter. Obviously this is awful, but Russia didn't cut the USA off when they murdered about 300 innocent people, so I would not expect this to hurt relations as much as some here may think, morality aside.
 
2175301
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 3:59 pm

Chasensfo wrote:
The USA shot down a pacaked Iranian A300 about 30 years ago, Iran didn't exactly invade America and the USA wasn't exactly overly apologetic on the matter. Obviously this is awful, but Russia didn't cut the USA off when they murdered about 300 innocent people, so I would not expect this to hurt relations as much as some here may think, morality aside.


A big difference is that the USA quickly admitted that they had made a mistake and shot down a passenger aircraft; and paid over $200,000 in compensation per passenger. Mistakes in combat zones do happen (somewhat frequently). The USA is pretty good at admitting them (perhaps no perfect); and I'm not sure there are many other countries so open about these kinds of mistakes.

Things would look a lot different if Russia had done the same as what the US did for Flight 655.

Have a great day,
 
Chasensfo
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 4:08 pm

2175301 wrote:
Chasensfo wrote:
The USA shot down a pacaked Iranian A300 about 30 years ago, Iran didn't exactly invade America and the USA wasn't exactly overly apologetic on the matter. Obviously this is awful, but Russia didn't cut the USA off when they murdered about 300 innocent people, so I would not expect this to hurt relations as much as some here may think, morality aside.


A big difference is that the USA quickly admitted that they had made a mistake and shot down a passenger aircraft; and paid over $200,000 in compensation per passenger. Mistakes in combat zones do happen (somewhat frequently). The USA is pretty good at admitting them (perhaps no perfect); and I'm not sure there are many other countries so open about these kinds of mistakes.

Things would look a lot different if Russia had done the same as what the US did for Flight 655.

Have a great day,

This is true, the USA did at least admit what they did and do something. But if I remember correctly, weren't medals handed out to some of the crew of the vessel?...
 
mjoelnir
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 4:32 pm

vhtje wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Wow, if this is true, then it means a state actor, Russia, committed an act of war on an innocent civilian target.


What motive does/did Russia have for this horrific act? Was it a deliberate act or did they mistake the MH 777 for something else, i.e. a military transporter? To me, it seems hard to believe a professional military outfit does not have the wherewithal to tell a civilian aircraft from a military one (as opposed to some rouge rebels who managed to get hold of some professional-grade military weapons and pointed it at random grey aircraft in the sky).

This alone suggests the action was deliberate. Which gets me back to my first question: why would Russia do this?


I assume it was a mistake in identifying the MH frame.

When does a military power ever accept responsibility? Think about Iran Air flight 655 and according to the USA, the US Vincennes confusing an Airbus A300 squawking a civilian code, with an attacking F-14. Why was the captain of the Vincennes not court marshaled and such an action leading to ending of his career? Did he have the backing from high up for such an action?
In view of those happenings, why do people imagine Russia to accept the blame for MH17? A major military power never accepts any blame for their actions, apart from after loosing a war.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 4:39 pm

And more political when it was announced soon before World Cup start in Russia
 
incitatus
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 4:39 pm

Chasensfo wrote:
The USA shot down a pacaked Iranian A300 about 30 years ago, Iran didn't exactly invade America and the USA wasn't exactly overly apologetic on the matter. Obviously this is awful, but Russia didn't cut the USA off when they murdered about 300 innocent people, so I would not expect this to hurt relations as much as some here may think, morality aside.


Ronald Reagan publicly admitted the US had made a mistake as soon as he had enough information to say so. That was in many newspapers the day after the shooting.

Later on the military tried to create a story that the IR655 pilot had made a mistake, but ultimately that fabrication failed.

Now remember, this was an Iranian jet in 1988 - that was 7 years after the Iran hostage crisis that lasted 444 days. The Iran-US relationship was even more contentious than it is today.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
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N14AZ
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 4:51 pm

2175301 wrote:
A big difference is that the USA quickly admitted that they had made a mistake and shot down a passenger aircraft; and paid over $200,000 in compensation per passenger.,

That’s the main difference and that’s what is so disgusting about Russia‘s behavior. It’s so obvious what happened and they keep lying. If they lie about such obvious things, who knows when they eventually tell the truth?
 
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Lingon
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 4:52 pm

Russia cannot admit shooting down MH-17, since that would mean admitting they (or at least their military equipment) were inside Ukraine at the time. AFAIK, officially Russia claims there is a civil war where there are only Ukrainians fighting each other.
If the missile had been fired from within Russia, they could have sacrificed some officer, claiming he acted against orders, put him in a luxury prison until things calmed down, then paroled him. Case closed. But now, that solution is impossible. Even if they would claim Ukrainian rebels (not Russians) fired the missile, why did they have access to a BUK missile if Russia was not involved?
They are painted into a corner.
 
aw70
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 4:54 pm

I just wish they had found a different way to publish their findings, and that they had involved investigators from some non-western powers which clearly have no interest in the matter either way (South Americans? Chinese? Japanese?). As is, the Russian side can still very well claim that this is a set-up, and that there was a biased inquiry by a "cabal of Western Powers" out to get them.

Why am I saying this? Well, the line of argumentation of the Dutch authorities seems to hinge, at least in part, on evidence they cannot completely show in public (probably due to said evidence having been obtained via covert means, read: via espionage). A cornerstone of the case they claim to have put together is the fact that the serial number of the missile in question has been unambiguously linked to an air defence brigade of the Russian Army. If they found this information in open sources, I applaud them - but matching the serial numbers of military kit to military units is usually not even possible in the considerably more open societies of the West. So figuring this out via publicly available newspaper clippings etc. for equipment of the Russian Army is hardly plausible: at least this information can hardly have come from sources that are actually verifiable by the general public.

Now such evidence is in some cases perfectly admissible in court, if the court makes sure that only those involved in the actual court proceedings get access to the sensitive aspects of said information (to protect the secret service sources, as it were). So they might really have a perfectly valid point w/r to the Russians having been behind the trigger. But wise it is not, to base such a contentious case on essentially unverifiable "closed source" information - if only because this makes it rather easy for Russia to go on claiming that Western Powers are out to frame them for something they did not do.

TL;DR: expect the bickering to continue exactly as before. Russia can still easily claim that it did nothing of the sort (at least unless the Dutch post all information on their website, including the really sensitive bits), and those who are convinced of Russia's guilt already knew this beforehand anyway.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 5:03 pm

aw70 wrote:
I just wish they had found a different way to publish their findings, and that they had involved investigators from some non-western powers which clearly have no interest in the matter either way (South Americans? Chinese? Japanese?). As is, the Russian side can still very well claim that this is a set-up, and that there was a biased inquiry by a "cabal of Western Powers" out to get them.


Russia blocked an international court in this case. Perhaps to keep claiming this, perhaps because of another reason.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
mjoelnir
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 5:13 pm

incitatus wrote:
Chasensfo wrote:
The USA shot down a pacaked Iranian A300 about 30 years ago, Iran didn't exactly invade America and the USA wasn't exactly overly apologetic on the matter. Obviously this is awful, but Russia didn't cut the USA off when they murdered about 300 innocent people, so I would not expect this to hurt relations as much as some here may think, morality aside.


Ronald Reagan publicly admitted the US had made a mistake as soon as he had enough information to say so. That was in many newspapers the day after the shooting.

Later on the military tried to create a story that the IR655 pilot had made a mistake, but ultimately that fabrication failed.

Now remember, this was an Iranian jet in 1988 - that was 7 years after the Iran hostage crisis that lasted 444 days. The Iran-US relationship was even more contentious than it is today.


So if it is an Iranian civilian jet, flying his rout, behaving in the proper manner, informing the proper authorities of its flight, it is OK for a trigger happy USA captain to shoot it down.
There was no way for the USA to deny the action, to many witnesses. I talk about taking responsibility.

Quote Wikipedia: "George H. W. Bush, at the time vice president of the United States in the Reagan administration, defended his country at the United Nations by arguing that the U.S. attack had been a wartime incident and that the crew of Vincennes had acted appropriately to the situation."

Never did the USA accept being at fault. In February 1996 the USA paid out a 131.8 million USD settlement without admitting to wrongdoing. The Captain of the Vincennes was promoted and got a medal.

The USA, together with the UK, organized in 1953 a coup in Iran toppling a democratic elected regime. I think nothing what Iran has done to the USA beats that.
I do not say that the Iran has a nice regime, but one should also look at certain actions have historic consequences.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 5:24 pm

2175301 wrote:
Chasensfo wrote:
The USA shot down a pacaked Iranian A300 about 30 years ago, Iran didn't exactly invade America and the USA wasn't exactly overly apologetic on the matter. Obviously this is awful, but Russia didn't cut the USA off when they murdered about 300 innocent people, so I would not expect this to hurt relations as much as some here may think, morality aside.


A big difference is that the USA quickly admitted that they had made a mistake and shot down a passenger aircraft; and paid over $200,000 in compensation per passenger. Mistakes in combat zones do happen (somewhat frequently). The USA is pretty good at admitting them (perhaps no perfect); and I'm not sure there are many other countries so open about these kinds of mistakes.

Things would look a lot different if Russia had done the same as what the US did for Flight 655.

Have a great day,


The USA paid out a compensation 1996 (quickly?) and never admitted to having done something wrong. The USA never admits to being at fault. The USA never allows an international committee to research actions of the USA military.

What Russia did was horrible, nobody should shoot at civilians. It is just strange that people here imagine that Russia would allow an international committee to research MH17 or would admit to fault. It is just hypocritical to accuse Russia of not doing something that other big powers will also not do.
Last edited by mjoelnir on Thu May 24, 2018 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
JulietteBravo
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 5:30 pm

Here you can find an impressive amount of Fotos and investigation documenting the transport of the BUK from Russia to East Ukraine:
https://mh17.correctiv.org/wegbuk_german/

Overview in English:
https://mh17.correctiv.org/english/

(Correctiv is a german media NGO)
Last edited by JulietteBravo on Thu May 24, 2018 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
fsabo
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 5:37 pm

salttee wrote:
aircatalonia wrote:
Do you think MH has any responsability for sending the plane over a war zone where military and transport planes were already being shot down?
No I do not. MH-17 was miles above the fray, it wasn't shot down by accident. Don't try to pretend that it was.


So when the BUK crew hit the 777 it was on purpose. They willfully and knowingly shot down a civilian airliner full of people.

When the Aegis cruiser crew hit the climbing A300 they mistook it for a descending F14. Honest mistake.
 
bennett123
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 5:40 pm

There was reference to IR655, what was the outcome of that?.
 
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DrPaul
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 5:41 pm

There are several things that are still have to be determined.

1. Who in the Russian military authorised the passage of the missile launchers and missiles into Ukraine?
2. Was this a 'private' job, that is, on the initiative of local military commanders, or was it authorised from general staff level?
3. Who was in charge of the missiles once they were in Ukraine and took the initiative to fire the missile: was it the Russian military (and at what level) or was the initiative handed to the pro-Russian militias in Ukraine?

Whatever the answers, they will not look good for the Russian military top-brass and government, as either they do not have an efficient command structure (allowing local army units to use matériel on a private basis) or were willing to allow highly dangerous matériel to be used to reinforce an armed uprising against a neighbouring country's government, and either allowing their own troops to be involved in this uprising or handing this matériel to potentially incompetent amateur militiamen, with, in this case, disastrous results.
 
JulietteBravo
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 5:44 pm

fsabo wrote:
salttee wrote:
aircatalonia wrote:
Do you think MH has any responsability for sending the plane over a war zone where military and transport planes were already being shot down?
No I do not. MH-17 was miles above the fray, it wasn't shot down by accident. Don't try to pretend that it was.


So when the BUK crew hit the 777 it was on purpose. They willfully and knowingly shot down a civilian airliner full of people.

When the Aegis cruiser crew hit the climbing A300 they mistook it for a descending F14. Honest mistake.


Gentlemen, most probably it was by accident. The commander of the BUK crew sent a tweet about just having shot a (ukrainian air force) „birdie“. Shortly after they noticed their tragic mistake he cancelled his tweet.
 
bhill
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 5:53 pm

Lingon wrote:
Russia cannot admit shooting down MH-17, since that would mean admitting they (or at least their military equipment) were inside Ukraine at the time. AFAIK, officially Russia claims there is a civil war where there are only Ukrainians fighting each other.
If the missile had been fired from within Russia, they could have sacrificed some officer, claiming he acted against orders, put him in a luxury prison until things calmed down, then paroled him. Case closed. But now, that solution is impossible. Even if they would claim Ukrainian rebels (not Russians) fired the missile, why did they have access to a BUK missile if Russia was not involved?
They are painted into a corner.



This......folks, ain't nothing going to be done about this whole horrible fuckup by Col. Putin's military..NOTHING...hell, he sure as hell is not going to authorize hundreds of thousands of rubles for compensation....

...but he MAY authorize nerve agents or polonium to quash any more proceedings....
Carpe Pices
 
bennett123
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 5:54 pm

Apart from the fact that the IR A300 was in an existing airlane, how do you mistake a climbing A300 for a descending F14.
 
fsabo
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 6:11 pm

JulietteBravo wrote:
fsabo wrote:
salttee wrote:
No I do not. MH-17 was miles above the fray, it wasn't shot down by accident. Don't try to pretend that it was.


So when the BUK crew hit the 777 it was on purpose. They willfully and knowingly shot down a civilian airliner full of people.

When the Aegis cruiser crew hit the climbing A300 they mistook it for a descending F14. Honest mistake.


Gentlemen, most probably it was by accident. The commander of the BUK crew sent a tweet about just having shot a (ukrainian air force) „birdie“. Shortly after they noticed their tragic mistake he cancelled his tweet.


Sorry if it wasn't obvious but my post was meant to be sarcastic. After the Russians saw they shot down a civilian airliner there was radio chatter to the effect of - what the f*** are they doing flying through a war zone. A few days earlier a Ukrainian military transport was shot down when it was at 20000 ft or so. So it was obvious there were more than just shoulder launched SAMs operating in the area. It was a calculated risk to save fuel.
 
petertenthije
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 6:18 pm

aw70 wrote:
I just wish they had found a different way to publish their findings, and that they had involved investigators from some non-western powers which clearly have no interest in the matter either way (South Americans? Chinese? Japanese?).
Malaysia is involved in the investigation.


aw70 wrote:
As is, the Russian side can still very well claim that this is a set-up, and that there was a biased inquiry by a "cabal of Western Powers" out to get them.
I hope you are not that naive to think that Russia would not call the investigation biased had China, Japan or one of the South American countries been involved with the investigation.

aw70 wrote:
the line of argumentation of the Dutch authorities seems to hinge, at least in part, on evidence they cannot completely show in public
At the press conference the investigators said there was more evidence, but that they would not release this now. They want to keep a few "ace cards" in the back pocket for when the trial starts.

By keeping this evidence hidden they can possibly incriminate defendants. If they make a statement they come to rely on in court, and that statement is contradicted by as yet unrevealed evidence, that can count towards sentencing. If this information is now revealed then would-be defendants know how to avoid trap-doors the prosecutor has set.
Attamottamotta!
 
Chasensfo
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 6:19 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Apart from the fact that the IR A300 was in an existing airlane, how do you mistake a climbing A300 for a descending F14.

Confirmation bias.

There is an episode of Air Crash Investigation(MAYDAY!) that covers the incident very well, IMO. It is around the internet but the episodes are quickly taken off YouTube for copyright issues.
 
Chasensfo
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 6:22 pm

ikramerica wrote:
How did this get switched to a discussion of the Iran Air tragedy? It was 30 years ago in a different world with different technology available. The USA admitted it happened even if the quality of the admission and response is in doubt.

Russia still hasn’t owned up to the incident. There is a difference.

The point is, another super power downed an airline full of innocent people and the backlash was far less than many here are demanding for Russia. And I say this as an American, just to share my perspective on the matter having researched a similar incident. Technology or not, I don't expect this to have an outcome much different than Iran Air's incident was for the USA.
 
ikramerica
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 6:23 pm

How did this get switched to a discussion of the Iran Air tragedy? It was 30 years ago in a different world with different technology available. The USA admitted it happened even if the quality of the admission and response is in doubt.

Russia still hasn’t owned up to the incident. There is a difference.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
algeorge2015
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 6:40 pm

TWA-800, IRA-655, MH-17 the list goes on. Maybe Ukrainian fighter plane tried to avoid missile system by hiding in the massive shadow of B777.
 
RJWNL
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 6:43 pm

algeorge2015 wrote:
Maybe Ukrainian fighter plane tried to avoid missile system by hiding in the massive shadow of B777.

You still believe this nonsense Russia is spreading?
 
RJWNL
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 6:50 pm

JulietteBravo wrote:
Gentlemen, most probably it was by accident. The commander of the BUK crew sent a tweet about just having shot a (ukrainian air force) „birdie“. Shortly after they noticed their tragic mistake he cancelled his tweet.


Not good enough, they should have avoided this "accident" instead of thinking it's all a game and brag about it on social media, I hope they will get that piece of sh*t...
 
algeorge2015
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 6:51 pm

RJWNL wrote:
algeorge2015 wrote:
Maybe Ukrainian fighter plane tried to avoid missile system by hiding in the massive shadow of B777.

You still believe this nonsense Russia is spreading?


dont know what to believe and what not to believe - did the truth ever came out in all other cases (also MH370 another case)
 
ryanov
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 6:55 pm

ikramerica wrote:
How did this get switched to a discussion of the Iran Air tragedy? It was 30 years ago in a different world with different technology available. The USA admitted it happened even if the quality of the admission and response is in doubt.

Russia still hasn’t owned up to the incident. There is a difference.


It's extremely relevant to the conversation; I don't see a lot of difference between the two scenarios, and people are calling for some pretty harsh punishments, re: Russia. MH17 was in 2014, 4 years ago. IR655 was in 1988, and the "settlement" non-apology people are describing occurred in 1996.

From Wikipedia:

In 1996, the United States and Iran reached a settlement at the International Court of Justice which included the statement "...the United States recognized the aerial incident of 3 July 1988 as a terrible human tragedy and expressed deep regret over the loss of lives caused by the incident...".[12] As part of the settlement, even though the United States did not admit legal liability or formally apologize to Iran, they still agreed to pay US$61.8 million on an ex gratia basis, amounting to $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims.[13]


Speaking as a US citizen, we're just as embarrassing as most other places, just with hubris tacked on.
 
AIRT0M
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 6:59 pm

algeorge2015 wrote:
TWA-800, IRA-655, MH-17 the list goes on. Maybe Ukrainian fighter plane tried to avoid missile system by hiding in the massive shadow of B777.


TWA 800? Right ...
 
na
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 7:09 pm

GSPSPOT wrote:
I sincerely hope that the world will demand some serious accountability if this turns out to be true!


The problem is, how will you make this so "waterproof" that the Russians have no chance but to give in and tell the truth. At the moment they can always say it isnt true, its fabricated, and in the current chilly political climate most Russians will believe Putin because parts of the western world aren´t the most truthful source at the moment, too, and especially Trump isn´t.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 7:10 pm

algeorge2015 wrote:
TWA-800, IRA-655, MH-17 the list goes on. Maybe Ukrainian fighter plane tried to avoid missile system by hiding in the massive shadow of B777.


In which case the radar return of the fighter should be very easily picked up by Russian radar stations, and the evidence is very easily supplied, no one's going to criticise Russia for having radar surveillance near their border.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 7:13 pm

algeorge2015 wrote:
RJWNL wrote:
algeorge2015 wrote:
Maybe Ukrainian fighter plane tried to avoid missile system by hiding in the massive shadow of B777.

You still believe this nonsense Russia is spreading?


dont know what to believe and what not to believe - did the truth ever came out in all other cases (also MH370 another case)


and there you have the goal of Russian propaganda, to confuse you.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
alfa164
Posts: 2912
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 7:18 pm

ikramerica wrote:
How did this get switched to a discussion of the Iran Air tragedy? It was 30 years ago in a different world with different technology available. The USA admitted it happened even if the quality of the admission and response is in doubt.
Russia still hasn’t owned up to the incident. There is a difference.


The discussion always gets switched when the Russian apologists/lemmings/trolls hop on every website - as most of them are paid to do - and attempt to distract everyone from the clear issue at hand. Confusion>doubt is their game plan... and, for some weak minds, it works.

Dutchy wrote:
algeorge2015 wrote:
RJWNL wrote:
You still believe this nonsense Russia is spreading?

dont know what to believe and what not to believe - did the truth ever came out in all other cases (also MH370 another case)

and there you have the goal of Russian propaganda, to confuse you.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 7:25 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
salttee wrote:
I don't know at what level the decision was taken, but somebody among the Russians decided to take down an airliner.

And your reasoning is...?
My reasoning is fully laid out on this page before this post.

flyingturtle wrote:
salttee wrote:
MH-17 was at 33,000 feet, that was not something that would have gone unnoticed by the TELAR operator.


The TELAR has only rudimentary means of identifying an airplane. Such a thing makes sense, though, when you *know* that any aircraft in range of your missile is an enemy one.
It is a matter of noticing the behavior of a target. This one was very high, at airliner height in fact. The TELAR has an altitude readout, it also has an elevation display. Then there is the already mentioned fact that the TELAR had been parked under the intersection of three airways. There are not many places on the globe like that.

flyingturtle wrote:
salttee wrote:
Your claim that "they thought (MH-17) to be an Ukrainian plane" is something that originates in your own head. There is nothing to support it, except your denial of the facts as they are known.
I'm only giving the Russians the benefit of the doubt, but that they didn't prevent shooting down an airliner is still damning enough.
Why are you slanting your view to favor the Russians? Why not look at it with a neutral eye?

flyingturtle wrote:
Here, negligence is easier to prove than intent. Also, let's not forget that tweets that had been removed. First, they were full of joy about having downed an aircraft... but as soon as images of the wreckage turned up, they were all removing their web postings.
I assume that those tweets were posted by hangers on, truck drivers, mechanics etc. I am sure they got in deep dodo for making those tweets.
 
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Dahlgardo
Posts: 324
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 7:35 pm

Who is surprised about these findings?
Everybody have known this from the beginning.

One reason Russia will not own up to these facts is probably because they then have to admit that regular Russian forces have invaded Ukraine and are actively and illegally participating in combat against Ukrainian forces. This is an act of war.

Then again, the West is so spineless, Russia will face no meaningfull consequences anyway.
We will participate in their Soccer World Cup, and continue to buy their gas.
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
 
salttee
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 7:37 pm

JulietteBravo wrote:
Gentlemen, most probably it was by accident. The commander of the BUK crew sent a tweet about just having shot a (ukrainian air force) „birdie“. Shortly after they noticed their tragic mistake he cancelled his tweet.
You sound like a Russian troll. There never has been any indication that the tweet author was the commander of the BUK. That's made up BS from you.
 
wingman
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 7:50 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Apart from the fact that the IR A300 was in an existing airlane, how do you mistake a climbing A300 for a descending F14.


I have to take exception with what looks like an insinuation that the Vincennes intentionally shot down a commercial airliner because they "simply must've known the difference". I think that tragedy was an honest mistake. In the same way I truly believe that when that Russian or Russian-controlled unit shot down MH17 they did not do so knowing it was a 777. I think the same is probably true of the KL 747 way back in the day.

It's the ultimate outcome that's very different as some are pointing out. Claim responsibility, admit the mistake, pay the consequences and move on. So far it looks like Putin skipped the first three and just moved on and everyone seems ready to give him a pass talking about old history. It's like Trump talking about Hillary, the essential problem being..she did go through the ringer A to Z, and now so must you.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1988
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 7:51 pm

salttee wrote:
JulietteBravo wrote:
Gentlemen, most probably it was by accident. The commander of the BUK crew sent a tweet about just having shot a (ukrainian air force) „birdie“. Shortly after they noticed their tragic mistake he cancelled his tweet.
You sound like a Russian troll. There never has been any indication that the tweet author was the commander of the BUK. That's made up BS from you.


What are you surprised at? What’s wrong with the tweet? This whole investigation is based upon “pictures from social media”, including edited ones. Same is also true about its predecessors - Bellingcat reports.

And they also need to make us their mind. They claimed “they have suspects”, but now they are looking for leads as to “who operated those Buks” and “help to establish the chain of commands”. Not convincing.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 7:56 pm

anrec80 wrote:
salttee wrote:
JulietteBravo wrote:
Gentlemen, most probably it was by accident. The commander of the BUK crew sent a tweet about just having shot a (ukrainian air force) „birdie“. Shortly after they noticed their tragic mistake he cancelled his tweet.
You sound like a Russian troll. There never has been any indication that the tweet author was the commander of the BUK. That's made up BS from you.


What are you surprised at? What’s wrong with the tweet? This whole investigation is based upon “pictures from social media”, including edited ones. Same is also true about its predecessors - Bellingcat reports.

And they also need to make us their mind. They claimed “they have suspects”, but now they are looking for leads as to “who operated those Buks” and “help to establish the chain of commands”. Not convincing.


Go on then mate: who did it, and where's your evidence.
 
F9Animal
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Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 7:57 pm

Russia should at minimum hand over those responsible for this so they can be prosecuted. They are of course harboring a group of murderers that need to be brought to justice.

This act was just horrific, and I will never be able to shake the horrible images from that tragedy. Those families deserve justice. Putin should accept responsibility for his military's actions, and at minimum financially compensate the families of those lost. The finger pointing and denials are pathetic.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
anrec80
Posts: 1988
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 8:02 pm

na wrote:
The problem is, how will you make this so "waterproof" that the Russians have no chance but to give in and tell the truth. At the moment they can always say it isnt true, its fabricated, and in the current chilly political climate most Russians will believe Putin because parts of the western world aren´t the most truthful source at the moment, too, and especially Trump isn´t.


Very simple - prepare a strong, compelling and, most importantly, public court case, and win it. If you can’t - you don’t have any grounds to blame anyone. All JIT has so far is some digitally edited pictures from social media.

Most important question the investigation needs to answer - when, where and how has this TELAR crossed Russian border? Who made this possible and who helped? So far - it’s still a “black hole” theory.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1988
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 8:11 pm

MrHMSH wrote:

Go on then mate: who did it, and where's your evidence.


We’ve been waiting for exactly that for 4 years now. All we have is a set up stage (first with that 777 cockpit, now with a piece of a missile), and “pictures from social media”.
 
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flyingturtle
Topic Author
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 8:12 pm

salttee wrote:
You sound like a Russian troll.


Don't be so abrasive...

salttee wrote:
It is a matter of noticing the behavior of a target. This one was very high, at airliner height in fact. The TELAR has an altitude readout, it also has an elevation display. Then there is the already mentioned fact that the TELAR had been parked under the intersection of three airways. There are not many places on the globe like that.


Still does not prove intent to shoot down an airliner.
1. A grossly negligent commander would not care where he positions his SAM units, so they end up under a busy airway.
2. A highly competent commander trusts on his (perceived) ability to tell apart airliners and military jets, and positions his units there, knowing there are airways above. Just as a sort of camouflage.

salttee wrote:
Why are you slanting your view to favor the Russians? Why not look at it with a neutral eye?


You don't understand my thought process. Just to make 99.99999% sure that my judgement is right, I begin my thought process with the assumption that they tell the truth and that they have acted correctly. And then I eliminate what cannot be the truth. For example, that they gave two different, mutually exclusive explanations for the shootdown - first, an Ukrainian Buk, and then, an Ukrainian Su-25. Another damning piece of evidence were the Twitter postings that were hastily removed.

I'm unwavering in my opinion that shooting down an airliner does not have any benefits at all. So it could never have been their intention. That's the point where I really, really believe what the Russian side is saying.

salttee wrote:
I assume that those tweets were posted by hangers on, truck drivers, mechanics etc. I am sure they got in deep dodo for making those tweets.


You assume something. Now, let's shoot down your assumption... those tweets were celebrating a shootdown! A truck driver or a mechanic cannot know so quickly that a shootdown happened. The only people who feel confident enough to make an nearly immediate celebratory Twitter posting about a shootdown are those who are related to the SAM unit. For example, people on a (para-)military command post.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
algeorge2015
Posts: 22
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Re: MH17: The missile belonged to a Russian brigade

Thu May 24, 2018 8:18 pm

Dutchy wrote:
algeorge2015 wrote:
RJWNL wrote:
You still believe this nonsense Russia is spreading?


dont know what to believe and what not to believe - did the truth ever came out in all other cases (also MH370 another case)


and there you have the goal of Russian propaganda, to confuse you.

very true, Russians are the only one out there with propaganda, to confuse me.
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