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aviationaware
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 4:00 pm

787Driver wrote:
That’s like approving death penalty with the excuse that most people who get executed are murderers, but screw the few that are actually innocent but get sentenced and executed anyway.


I don't have any numbers to back up my claim, but I am willing to chop off both my hands if even 1% of abortions are following conception despite the use of both a condom and the pill, which is really not asking too much.

Also, yes I am a proponent of the death penalty for certain people. Not all murderers, but certainly people who rape then kill the victim or other horrible people. Yes, there are innocent people on Death Row. Mainly from decades ago before there was a good understanding of DNA. Today, not so much anymore. For those who are already there and have a chance to get out, there are good causes such as the Innocence Project. All in all I don't think there is any cause to rethink the death penalty.
 
jetero
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 4:23 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
jetero wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:

Stop. If you're willing to make exceptions, you're not really pro life.


OK DSK (ha! The irony is superb!) is on the record as saying if our sisters or mothers are raped the role of government is to force them to have it.


Quite the opposite in fact. I'll never be anti choice (though I would agree that as someone who is neither a woman nor a doctor that I should never be able to vote on the matter); I'm just over the blatant falsehood of that stance.

To wit... If one is willing to say that they are 'pro-life' except in cases of rape or a few other carve outs, they're not really pro life. They just hate that women have a choice in the matter. If one is truly pro life, then in their universe, a fetus is a third party who is alive without regard to how it was conceived.


OOOOOPS!!!!
 
GDB
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 4:45 pm

Prior to this law that is now to be changed, after the referendum, anyone carrying out an abortion could face up to 14 years in jail. Longer than most sentences for rape. So a man could rape a woman, make her pregnant but she or anyone who aborted the unwanted collection of cells, could face more jail time than her rapist.

It easy to see who drew up these laws.
They'd be right at home in the GOP across the pond.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 4:45 pm

aviationaware wrote:
But don't tell me it's her choice to just say fuck it and go get an abortion, because that's evil.


It is her choice whether you like it or not and whether or not you think it's "evil".

aviationaware wrote:
Also, yes I am a proponent of the death penalty for certain people. Not all murderers, but certainly people who rape then kill the victim or other horrible people.


Is there a legal definition of a "horrible person"? Who gets to decide if the defendant is a "horrible person"?

You rail against the term pro choice, yet throw out arbitrary, unmeasurable adjectives like "evil" and "horrible".
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There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
jetero
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 4:46 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Not all murderers, but certainly people who rape then kill the victim or other horrible people.


You seem preoccupied with rape.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 4:50 pm

GDB wrote:
Prior to this law that is now to be changed, after the referendum, anyone carrying out an abortion could face up to 14 years in jail

While those laws were on the statute books, they have never been implemented, AFAIK. There would've been outrage at any such sentencing. It's a bit like the old laws on homosexuality: they were on the books, but were never implemeted.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 5:09 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
GDB wrote:
Prior to this law that is now to be changed, after the referendum, anyone carrying out an abortion could face up to 14 years in jail

While those laws were on the statute books, they have never been implemented, AFAIK. There would've been outrage at any such sentencing. It's a bit like the old laws on homosexuality: they were on the books, but were never implemeted.


Comparing abortion to homosexuality is a joke and absolutely uncalled for.

scbriml wrote:
Who gets to decide if the defendant is a "horrible person"?


The jury of course.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 5:20 pm

Freakysh wrote:
Just read the UK governments report on abortions in 2016.

97% of abortions were group C abortions.

Group C is due to mums mental health.

The other groups relate to mums physical well being (ie dying from the pregnancy, or the baby having gross physical deformities not compatible with a healthy life etc)

Basically the clear majority was because mum didn't want it for "mental health" reasons. One example given was excessive vomiting during pregnancy. So if you get pregnant and just couldn't be farked, tell the doc you are vomiting too much and it's detrimental to your mental health.

So keep your examples of brain defects in children coming, but I can assure you they make up less than 3% of abortion excuses.

That would make rape related part of group C....

By the way, I just read "C" and you are wrong. It covers both physical and mental health: "injury to the physical or mental health of the
pregnant woman; "

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
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Tugger
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 5:27 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
GDB wrote:
Prior to this law that is now to be changed, after the referendum, anyone carrying out an abortion could face up to 14 years in jail

While those laws were on the statute books, they have never been implemented, AFAIK. There would've been outrage at any such sentencing. It's a bit like the old laws on homosexuality: they were on the books, but were never implemeted.


Comparing abortion to homosexuality is a joke and absolutely uncalled for.

He's not. And this is based on reading comprehension.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Aesma
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 5:30 pm

Freakysh wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
I thought it was going to be a lot closer but I guess not. Great to see the Catholic church less relevant.


Agree. Abortion is a lefty trait. Rather than take responsibility for actions, it's easier to make life dispensible when it causes an inconvenience.

Not a bad thing though, the less lefties brought into the world, the better. Well played Eire.


In Ireland abortion was illegal even in the case of rape. How's that for responsibility ?

Since when do right-wing people care about life ? What does life even mean ? Do they care about the billions of animals killed each year ? The deteriorating environment that kills millions of people and will ultimately make life harder for all of humanity ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 6:09 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Comparing abortion to homosexuality is a joke and absolutely uncalled for.

Pardon? :eyepopping:

Tugger wrote:
He's not. And this is based on reading comprehension.

Tugg

Thank you .. . .
 
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Channex757
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 6:29 pm

This hopefully means that the morning after pill will be easily available in Ireland. That alone will save all the mentally and physically draining trips to England financed by Granny for girls and women who have made mistakes and "got caught".

The existing laws were brutal and caused death and injury. Ireland will still have some of the strictest laws with the 12 week limit. However, as I heard it summed up the other day "children should not bear children". That alone justifies the change. That thirteen year old girl who feels like in the moment she can't say no to her pushy boyfriend, then finds that disaster has struck her. Do you think this child should be forced to bear another child?

It was mentioned above that Britain does a majority of its abortions on mental health grounds. This also includes those children who will be irreparably harmed if they are forced to carry that child to term. How many will decide they can't do it and kill themselves? THAT is mental illness as grounds for a termination.

Anyone who justifies the existing laws on religious or frivolous grounds is nothing short of a monster.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 6:39 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Comparing abortion to homosexuality is a joke and absolutely uncalled for.


Swing and a miss
Image

aviationaware wrote:
The jury of course.


Neatly ignoring the more pertinent question! :lol:
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There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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HELyes
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 7:26 pm

aviationaware wrote:
In the US last year, there was one abortion for every 5.8 live births. I can't believe the Irish want that for themselves, but apparently they do.


The rate has been declining for decades in US. More freedom doesn't automatically mean more abortions, in Finland abortion has been legal since 1950 and the rate is among the lowest in Europe.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 7:35 pm

12 weeks for a normal pregnancy is not really restrictive if there aren't roadblocks put in the way of women/girls who want an abortion.

I'm guessing the UK stats are caused by an hypocritical law that you must have a "good reason" to want an abortion. The French law was similar until recently, now there is no need for a justification anymore. In practice before that doctors/nurses simply put down "mental health risk" whatever the woman actually said or didn't say was her reason.

The morning after pill is also widely available including in schools, and parents have no say on the matter. We'll see how it goes in Ireland.

Finally what will be the possibilities if a fetal anomaly is discovered after 12 weeks, although to be honest you can detest all chromosomal abnormalities before that now, and it will become standard practice soon enough.

If you choose to have a disabled child that's fine by me, if you need state support OK, but then don't rail against state support for others ; personally my choice is already made in that case, and for most French women too.
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par13del
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 10:32 pm

So a question, what is the penalty - social or otherwise - for a man to choose not to use a condom and he subsequently gets a woman pregnant?
 
Freakysh
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 10:52 pm

par13del wrote:
So a question, what is the penalty - social or otherwise - for a man to choose not to use a condom and he subsequently gets a woman pregnant?


No penalty. Why should there be a penalty? Conceivingg a baby isn't a criminal act
 
jetero
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 10:54 pm

Freakysh wrote:
par13del wrote:
So a question, what is the penalty - social or otherwise - for a man to choose not to use a condom and he subsequently gets a woman pregnant?


No penalty. Why should there be a penalty? Conceivingg a baby isn't a criminal act


And there you go . . .
 
Freakysh
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 11:05 pm

jetero wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
par13del wrote:
So a question, what is the penalty - social or otherwise - for a man to choose not to use a condom and he subsequently gets a woman pregnant?


No penalty. Why should there be a penalty? Conceivingg a baby isn't a criminal act


And there you go . . .


And there you go what?

It's no different to a woman telling a guy she's on the pill and uses him to get pregnant. It's not illegal.

End of the day, if either party doesn't want to get pregnant, take the appropriate precaution. It's called taking responsibility jetero
 
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par13del
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 11:11 pm

Freakysh wrote:
No penalty. Why should there be a penalty? Conceivingg a baby isn't a criminal act

Based on previous post in this thread it seemed that only women were responsible for them getting pregnant so they had to bear the consequences.
 
Freakysh
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Sun May 27, 2018 11:59 pm

par13del wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
No penalty. Why should there be a penalty? Conceivingg a baby isn't a criminal act

Based on previous post in this thread it seemed that only women were responsible for them getting pregnant so they had to bear the consequences.


But the question was should there be a penalty.

Ofcourse both the man and woman have responsibilities for looking after the child.

Not sure how you guys view raising children, but penalty is not a term I would use
 
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par13del
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 12:48 am

Freakysh wrote:
Not sure how you guys view raising children, but penalty is not a term I would use

How about these:
1. Ensure his child carries his name - jail time if he does not
2. Ensure he has a job and mandate his employers deduct his support funds first.
3. If he does not like 1 and 2 then he is responsible for getting a vasectomy or use a condom....

We are pretty good and putting things in place for women...they have to raise the child, they can be charged with neglect, adoption options are complicated - we can adopt third world children much easier - in reality we ensure that we do all we can to FORCE women to raise the unwanted kids and let the men go free...I guess since nature ensured they have to give birth we say they are ultimately responsible from inception to the grave...
 
Freakysh
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 1:02 am

par13del wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
Not sure how you guys view raising children, but penalty is not a term I would use

How about these:
1. Ensure his child carries his name - jail time if he does not
2. Ensure he has a job and mandate his employers deduct his support funds first.
3. If he does not like 1 and 2 then he is responsible for getting a vasectomy or use a condom....

We are pretty good and putting things in place for women...they have to raise the child, they can be charged with neglect, adoption options are complicated - we can adopt third world children much easier - in reality we ensure that we do all we can to FORCE women to raise the unwanted kids and let the men go free...I guess since nature ensured they have to give birth we say they are ultimately responsible from inception to the grave...


Fine with me.

Whatever it takes to prevent an abortion
 
jetero
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 2:02 am

Freakysh wrote:
par13del wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
Not sure how you guys view raising children, but penalty is not a term I would use

How about these:
1. Ensure his child carries his name - jail time if he does not
2. Ensure he has a job and mandate his employers deduct his support funds first.
3. If he does not like 1 and 2 then he is responsible for getting a vasectomy or use a condom....

We are pretty good and putting things in place for women...they have to raise the child, they can be charged with neglect, adoption options are complicated - we can adopt third world children much easier - in reality we ensure that we do all we can to FORCE women to raise the unwanted kids and let the men go free...I guess since nature ensured they have to give birth we say they are ultimately responsible from inception to the grave...


Fine with me.

Whatever it takes to prevent an abortion


Freakysh in none of your posts do you explain anything other than a retrubutionist desire to punish people or force people into doing something as a consequence for bad decisions.

You don’t give a flying f*ck about children. You just care about having control over others’ lives.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 2:03 am

Dead ireland, thank you for putting American evangelical nutjobs in their place when they tried influencing your politics. I hope you were as rude as possible to them.
情報
 
Freakysh
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 2:41 am

jetero wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
par13del wrote:
How about these:
1. Ensure his child carries his name - jail time if he does not
2. Ensure he has a job and mandate his employers deduct his support funds first.
3. If he does not like 1 and 2 then he is responsible for getting a vasectomy or use a condom....

We are pretty good and putting things in place for women...they have to raise the child, they can be charged with neglect, adoption options are complicated - we can adopt third world children much easier - in reality we ensure that we do all we can to FORCE women to raise the unwanted kids and let the men go free...I guess since nature ensured they have to give birth we say they are ultimately responsible from inception to the grave...


Fine with me.

Whatever it takes to prevent an abortion


Freakysh in none of your posts do you explain anything other than a retrubutionist desire to punish people or force people into doing something as a consequence for bad decisions.

You don’t give a flying f*ck about children. You just care about having control over others’ lives.


Raising a child isn't punishment, unless you are that self absorbed, then I guess it is.

I know you like being on the slope of anything goes and there's no consequences to actions, hence the emotional responses to being held to account for ones actions.

Life is hard sometimes, you've just got to suck it up. Once you've achieved something difficult, you can even look back proudly, knowing you thought it was impossible when you started. Give the kids a chance, don't just throw them out because you're scared jetero.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 4:08 am

Freakysh wrote:
Life is hard sometimes, you've just got to suck it up. Once you've achieved something difficult, you can even look back proudly, knowing you thought it was impossible when you started. Give the kids a chance, don't just throw them out because you're scared jetero.



It's self evident that you don't really believe this. I just don't get why you think a fetus that happens from rape is less alive than one from a consensual event. This makes it clear that your postion is based on resentment of women having a choice they didn't used to, and not needing your permission to live their lives with their own agency.

If your position is not based on punishing women, you need to a much better job explaining that.

aviationaware wrote:
scbriml wrote:
I believe women should have the choice and that no man (other than the biological father) should have a say in it one way or the other.


Women do have a choice. A choice to use a contraceptive (or a combination of contraceptives for extra safety). A choice to not get drunk and zone out.


There is a spot for You on Harvey Weinstein's jury.

aviationaware wrote:
Most abortions are not caused by rape, incest or other monstrous acts. Most abortions are caused by irresponsible behavior of the woman getting the abortion. I will not condone anyone's murder of a child out of convenience, and that's what most abortions are.


I have fantastic news for you, then. Nobody requires you to condone anything. You do not get a say in this.
It’s perfectly natural to be surprised by something coming at you faster than light. You’d never see it coming anyway. . .
 
Freakysh
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 5:01 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
Life is hard sometimes, you've just got to suck it up. Once you've achieved something difficult, you can even look back proudly, knowing you thought it was impossible when you started. Give the kids a chance, don't just throw them out because you're scared jetero.



It's self evident that you don't really believe this. I just don't get why you think a fetus that happens from rape is less alive than one from a consensual event. This makes it clear that your postion is based on resentment of women having a choice they didn't used to, and not needing your permission to live their lives with their own agency.

If your position is not based on punishing women, you need to a much better job explaining that.


Again with the punishing. I'm starting to see why you think the way you do if you keep saying having a child is punishment. I feel for your children.

A woman that's raped didn't choose to get pregnant, so in my eyes she has a choice to go through with the pregnancy.

A woman whose life is in danger, should have the choice to terminate the pregnancy.

A parent of a child that is guaranteed to be born with a condition that is going to end with an early death, has the right to choose to terminate early.

A couple that chooses to get pregnant by action of carelessness or lack of discipline doesn't get that luxury in my eyes.

I'm sorry I don't fit into your self defined pro life definition box.

If you still don't like it or don't get it, I can't help you anymore, you'll have to live it for the rest of your life
 
bagoldex
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 5:14 am

Freakysh wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
Life is hard sometimes, you've just got to suck it up. Once you've achieved something difficult, you can even look back proudly, knowing you thought it was impossible when you started. Give the kids a chance, don't just throw them out because you're scared jetero.



It's self evident that you don't really believe this. I just don't get why you think a fetus that happens from rape is less alive than one from a consensual event. This makes it clear that your postion is based on resentment of women having a choice they didn't used to, and not needing your permission to live their lives with their own agency.

If your position is not based on punishing women, you need to a much better job explaining that.


Again with the punishing. I'm starting to see why you think the way you do if you keep saying having a child is punishment. I feel for your children.

A woman that's raped didn't choose to get pregnant, so in my eyes she has a choice to go through with the pregnancy.

A woman whose life is in danger, should have the choice to terminate the pregnancy.

A parent of a child that is guaranteed to be born with a condition that is going to end with an early death, has the right to choose to terminate early.

A couple that chooses to get pregnant by action of carelessness or lack of discipline doesn't get that luxury in my eyes.

I'm sorry I don't fit into your self defined pro life definition box.

If you still don't like it or don't get it, I can't help you anymore, you'll have to live it for the rest of your life


Christofascist or do you just resent woman in general?
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 6:02 am

bagoldex wrote:

Christofascist or do you just resent woman in general?


What, it can't be both? In any case, I'm not seeing real concern for babies here either.



Freakysh wrote:


A woman that's raped didn't choose to get pregnant, so in my eyes she has a choice to go through with the pregnancy.

A woman whose life is in danger, should have the choice to terminate the pregnancy.


What about the "baby"? That's only remotely defensible reason to be anti-choice. Why does the fetus just magically evaporate when you (obviously begrudgingly) change the circumstances of conception? Do you believe rapes lead to demonic possession or something?

Because if you don't, the only reason you feel this way is that women making a decision that doesn't require your approval is unacceptable in your universe. There really isn't another choice here.


freakysh wrote:

A couple that chooses to get pregnant by action of carelessness or lack of discipline doesn't get that luxury in my eyes.


They most certainly do have that right. And no objection of yours or whatever church you're a part of will ever change that.

freakysh wrote:
I'm sorry I don't fit into your self defined pro life definition box.


No apologies necessary. You don't fit my definition because you don't fit anybody's. At best, your position can be described as some weird pastiche of pro-choice and anti-woman, at the same time.
It’s perfectly natural to be surprised by something coming at you faster than light. You’d never see it coming anyway. . .
 
bagoldex
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 6:14 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
bagoldex wrote:

Christofascist or do you just resent woman in general?


What, it can't be both? In any case, I'm not seeing real concern for babies here either.


The pro-birth side might as well be called the pro-suffering side, for both the mother and child.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 6:56 am

Freakysh wrote:
Again with the punishing. I'm starting to see why you think the way you do if you keep saying having a child is punishment.

A simple question: Are all parents required... REQUIRED to provide a good and loving life and home for any children they conceive? Do you enforce that... if so how do you enforce that?

Because your statements appear to say that.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Freakysh
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 7:06 am

Tugger wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
Again with the punishing. I'm starting to see why you think the way you do if you keep saying having a child is punishment.

A simple question: Are all parents required... REQUIRED to provide a good and loving life and home for any children they conceive? Do you enforce that... if so how do you enforce that?

Because your statements appear to say that.

Tugg


Yes they are required.

Children are taken from their homes in situations where this doesn't occur.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 7:32 am

Freakysh wrote:
A couple that chooses to get pregnant by action of carelessness or lack of discipline doesn't get that luxury in my eyes.


That's an oxymoron. Such a couple didn't choose to get pregnant.

It's astonishing how many men feel they have the right to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 7:46 am

Freakysh wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
Again with the punishing. I'm starting to see why you think the way you do if you keep saying having a child is punishment.

A simple question: Are all parents required... REQUIRED to provide a good and loving life and home for any children they conceive? Do you enforce that... if so how do you enforce that?

Because your statements appear to say that.

Tugg


Yes they are required.

Children are taken from their homes in situations where this doesn't occur.

And who is the arbiter of this?
Who decides what is a good and loving home? Is spanking allowed? Is it love to force/encourage a gay child to not be gay?

Also, if the state can take away a child why can't the state also decide who is allowed to conceive?

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Mon May 28, 2018 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Freakysh
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 7:47 am

scbriml wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
A couple that chooses to get pregnant by action of carelessness or lack of discipline doesn't get that luxury in my eyes.


That's an oxymoron. Such a couple didn't choose to get pregnant.

It's astonishing how many men feel they have the right to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body.


Yes they did. They didn't want to get pregnant and chose not to ensure they wouldn't get pregnant. That's a choice.

That beta male guilt trip won't work on me. This isn't about telling a woman what she can and can't do.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 7:48 am

aviationaware wrote:
I don't have any numbers to back up my claim, but I am willing to chop off both my hands if even 1% of abortions are following conception despite the use of both a condom and the pill, which is really not asking too much.


Well, funny thing about that:

"More than half of women who got an abortion last year were using at least one form of contraception, according to data released by the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, a United Kingdom charity that provides reproductive health services, including abortions."

Ah, but those numbers include people who were using contraception incorrectly. Surely the numbers of those using it correctly must be below 1%, right?

"Of those with unintended pregnancies, 5% used contraception consistently and correctly"

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/more- ... 2017-08-02

So...I hope you're not too attached to having hands. :scared:
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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Jouhou
Posts: 2541
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Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 9:02 am

As a woman, I can say that the vast majority of my friends didn't understand how birth control works and were taking them wrong. Quite frankly laws preventing abortion creates a situation where the world gets over run by morons, because they are the only ones reproducing (like idiocracy)

Humans are an invasive species. Our reproducing is no "miracle", it's an infection of an ecosystem.
情報
 
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scbriml
Posts: 20070
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 11:49 am

Freakysh wrote:
This isn't about telling a woman what she can and can't do.


When a male-dominated state apparatus makes abortion illegal, that's exactly what it is.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
GDB
Posts: 14321
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 1:38 pm

I cannot speak for Ireland but prior to both abortion and homosexuality being de-criminalised in the UK, in 1967, the laws were used.
Which meant in practice, a great time to be a blackmailer or a back street abortionist, until that sensible Roy Jenkins changed the law. (Which was unpopular with many, even a majority at the time, including the then Labour government's core vote).
Fast forward 20 years, when some in the Thatcher government tried to pin the steep rises in crime on their watch on this 'permissive society' that they said Jenkins had unleashed. Not steeply rising unemployment and poverty.

Jenkins, still an MP though by them with the Liberal/SDP, pointed out that if they really believe that, with their majority now, they could amend or strike down the legislation he had put through Parliament.
The government did not do this, they knew it was politically too toxic even if they had the numbers, it was then, even more now, very hard to see any government tryingto turn back the clock.
 
CCGPV
Posts: 1292
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:18 pm

Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 2:02 pm

Freakysh wrote:


That beta male guilt trip won't work on me.


This explains everything.

Anyone who uses phrases like this in a non-ironic way is just a loser through and through.
Last edited by CCGPV on Mon May 28, 2018 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Stay curious
 
bagoldex
Topic Author
Posts: 1027
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:33 pm

Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 2:02 pm

Freakysh wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
A couple that chooses to get pregnant by action of carelessness or lack of discipline doesn't get that luxury in my eyes.


That's an oxymoron. Such a couple didn't choose to get pregnant.

It's astonishing how many men feel they have the right to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body.


Yes they did. They didn't want to get pregnant and chose not to ensure they wouldn't get pregnant. That's a choice.

That beta male guilt trip won't work on me. This isn't about telling a woman what she can and can't do.


Then what precisely is it about?
 
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Braybuddy
Posts: 6965
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 2:25 pm

GDB wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
I cannot speak for Ireland but they were in the UK, before both were de-criminalised in 1967.
Jenkins

Yes, I remember even back in the '70s police used to engage in entrapment. We're a funny country in that laws are often there, but never enforced. As long as there's no real outrage the Gardaí often turn a blind eye.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 5:38 pm

par13del wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
Not sure how you guys view raising children, but penalty is not a term I would use

How about these:
1. Ensure his child carries his name - jail time if he does not
2. Ensure he has a job and mandate his employers deduct his support funds first.
3. If he does not like 1 and 2 then he is responsible for getting a vasectomy or use a condom....

We are pretty good and putting things in place for women...they have to raise the child, they can be charged with neglect, adoption options are complicated - we can adopt third world children much easier - in reality we ensure that we do all we can to FORCE women to raise the unwanted kids and let the men go free...I guess since nature ensured they have to give birth we say they are ultimately responsible from inception to the grave...

If men were held accountable for pregnancy, abortion would be on demand no questions asked and Planned Parenthood would be as near and dear to the GOP as the NRA
I don't take responsibility at all
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 6:29 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
There is a spot for You on Harvey Weinstein's jury.


I would probably find Weinstein guilty. He is a sleaze bag and a perv. But that does not remove 100% of the blame from his victims. Why did they go up to his hotel room? I mean count 1 and 1 together. A man does not invite a woman to his hotel room to play chess. Harvey Weinstein (and other celebrities) only had/have such an easy time preying on women because there are enough irresponsible and gullible victims out there.

That being said, putting yourself in a position where you might be sexually abused and risking a chance pregnancy in consensual sex is not comparable at all, because the latter involves no crime.

Mir wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
I don't have any numbers to back up my claim, but I am willing to chop off both my hands if even 1% of abortions are following conception despite the use of both a condom and the pill, which is really not asking too much.


Well, funny thing about that:

"More than half of women who got an abortion last year were using at least one form of contraception, according to data released by the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, a United Kingdom charity that provides reproductive health services, including abortions."

Ah, but those numbers include people who were using contraception incorrectly. Surely the numbers of those using it correctly must be below 1%, right?

"Of those with unintended pregnancies, 5% used contraception consistently and correctly"

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/more- ... 2017-08-02

So...I hope you're not too attached to having hands. :scared:


They were using one. I was talking about using 2, and using the most reliable too as an add-on. There are many contraceptives that are easily applied wrongly and even if applied correctly, they are not as effective as others. Now, some women react badly to the pill so they can't take it. That's not good, but those aren't most women.
Taking the pill is easy and not asking too much. Just be a bit reliable and self disciplined. Same with condoms. Guy doesn't want to put one on? Too bad, no sex tonight. Easy as that. Not getting pressured into saying yes is a feat of character, and if you can't do it your parents screwed up bigtime.

Meanwhile, we are only discussing this from the female perspective, and I am sure that's the most important by far. But the truth also is, a lot of women probably get pressured into getting an abortion by men who don't want a baby around. Well guess what: If you're willing to stick your dick in there, then you better be ready to pay for it when the time comes.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 9:00 pm

aviationaware wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
There is a spot for You on Harvey Weinstein's jury.



I would probably find Weinstein guilty.


No reason to believe that.

Exhibit A...
aviationaware wrote:
But that does not remove 100% of the blame from his victims. Why did they go up to his hotel room?









aviationaware wrote:
Guy doesn't want to put one on? Too bad, no sex tonight. Easy as that. Not getting pressured into saying yes is a feat of character, and if you can't do it your parents screwed up bigtime.



This your first week on earth or something? With jewels like this statement, it's really not difficult to see why women don't need your input.

We can debate this stuff all day, but in the end, the truth is that we are truly privileged to live in an age where opinions like yours are a vanishing minority and are legally irrelevant.
It’s perfectly natural to be surprised by something coming at you faster than light. You’d never see it coming anyway. . .
 
Freakysh
Posts: 502
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:49 am

Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 9:39 pm

bagoldex wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
scbriml wrote:

That's an oxymoron. Such a couple didn't choose to get pregnant.

It's astonishing how many men feel they have the right to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body.


Yes they did. They didn't want to get pregnant and chose not to ensure they wouldn't get pregnant. That's a choice.

That beta male guilt trip won't work on me. This isn't about telling a woman what she can and can't do.


Then what precisely is it about?


It's about society taking the easy way out. Rather than push to educate people to act responsibly, we instead encourage the wrong behaviour by saying don't worry about it, here's a get out of jail free card.

FMD, every Christmas there's a campaign about cautioning people of giving puppies as Christmas gifts. A majority of puppies given as gifts and up at the pound and eventually get euthanized due to overcrowding. That's a problem to society.

Yet I've never seen any campaigns addressing rates of abortion and ways to go about preventing having to do them.

Have a look at the OP FFS... Celebrities celebrate!

Shows the mindset that has been ingrained into society.

I'm not going to apologise for my view, you can get all virtuous with your claims of men wanting to control women and all that kind of BS. I'm comfortable with my discomfort with seeing abortion made mainstream and acceptable in any situation.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 10:07 pm

Freakysh wrote:
Rather than push to educate people to act responsibly, we instead encourage the wrong behaviour by saying don't worry about it, here's a get out of jail free card. .

What education? The same people that are anti abortion are also anti contraception and anti sex education, and on the rare occasion they do push "education" it's reliably ineffective garbage like abstinence only education, and that's how trailer trash like Sara Palin becomes an unplanned grandma twice over because Bristol can't keep her legs closed.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
Freakysh
Posts: 502
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:49 am

Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 10:19 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
Rather than push to educate people to act responsibly, we instead encourage the wrong behaviour by saying don't worry about it, here's a get out of jail free card. .

What education? The same people that are anti abortion are also anti contraception and anti sex education, and on the rare occasion they do push "education" it's reliably ineffective garbage like abstinence only education, and that's how trailer trash like Sara Palin becomes an unplanned grandma twice over because Bristol can't keep her legs closed.


There's more to the world than redneck USA
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Ireland decriminalizes abortion!

Mon May 28, 2018 11:27 pm

Freakysh wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Freakysh wrote:
Rather than push to educate people to act responsibly, we instead encourage the wrong behaviour by saying don't worry about it, here's a get out of jail free card. .

What education? The same people that are anti abortion are also anti contraception and anti sex education, and on the rare occasion they do push "education" it's reliably ineffective garbage like abstinence only education, and that's how trailer trash like Sara Palin becomes an unplanned grandma twice over because Bristol can't keep her legs closed.


There's more to the world than redneck USA

Not when redneck USA is running the white house--any family planning program funded by the USA is now pushing ineffective christian voodoo
I don't take responsibility at all

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