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LockheedBBD
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:40 pm

Jalap wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Why not? We study things, we also got in boats thousands of years ago and went looking for new lands, why wouldn’t an advanced civilisation study us and explore our world like we have done??

If they studied us, the conclusion would be we best be avoided.

Alien life capable of interstellar travel would definitely explore and study us. If this isn’t happening that’s either because insterstellar travel just isn’t possible, or no intelligent lifeform is capable of getting this advanced without self-destructing.

Now imagine a species capable of interstellar travel while not self-destructing in war, then I’m pretty certain that they would conclude that mankind is a hostile species best contained on earth till it self-destructs.

If you doubt this argument, just imagine a meeting between this advanced alien and Trump or Putin.
Case closed.



:checkmark: :checkmark:

Humans are hostile to their own kind, let alone any hypothetical visiting extra-terrestrials.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:09 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
Jalap wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Why not? We study things, we also got in boats thousands of years ago and went looking for new lands, why wouldn’t an advanced civilisation study us and explore our world like we have done??

If they studied us, the conclusion would be we best be avoided.

Alien life capable of interstellar travel would definitely explore and study us. If this isn’t happening that’s either because insterstellar travel just isn’t possible, or no intelligent lifeform is capable of getting this advanced without self-destructing.

Now imagine a species capable of interstellar travel while not self-destructing in war, then I’m pretty certain that they would conclude that mankind is a hostile species best contained on earth till it self-destructs.

If you doubt this argument, just imagine a meeting between this advanced alien and Trump or Putin.
Case closed.



:checkmark: :checkmark:

Humans are hostile to their own kind, let alone any hypothetical visiting extra-terrestrials.

Ehh... I don't see it. Much as we love to see our species as "powerful" and able to stand up to outsides forces like in Independence Day, I doubt we could cause any threat to another species that is able to perform tasks such as interstellar travel. The power that would require, the precision, the intelligence only really puts humans at risk. Not the aliens.

Tugg
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fr8mech
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:31 pm

Jalap wrote:
Now imagine a species capable of interstellar travel while not self-destructing in war, then I’m pretty certain that they would conclude that mankind is a hostile species best contained on earth till it self-destructs.


Or, that we are in just a normal state of evolution.
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Classa64
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:16 am

I live in Northern Ontario, It gets dark up here where I live and I enjoy just going out and looking up through Binoculars. I have to believe that there out there somewhere after spending hours looking around. You could try the Drake equation to get some idea how many :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

C.
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Super80Fan
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:18 am

Depends on what we mean by "alien". Do I believe in human like creatures that walk, talk, have their own society, maybe green? Absolutely not. Do I believe there are other life forms out there that resemble our microorganisms, bugs, or even small to large mammals? Yes.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
Jalap
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:33 am

fr8mech wrote:
Jalap wrote:
Now imagine a species capable of interstellar travel while not self-destructing in war, then I’m pretty certain that they would conclude that mankind is a hostile species best contained on earth till it self-destructs.


Or, that we are in just a normal state of evolution.

Normal, yes. Doesn’t mean that evolution on earth resulted in a very successfull species.
 
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:36 am

Jalap wrote:
Normal, yes. Doesn’t mean that evolution on earth resulted in a very successfull species.


Well, we won't know that until we have a standard to judge against, will we?

Super80Fan wrote:
Depends on what we mean by "alien". Do I believe in human like creatures that walk, talk, have their own society, maybe green? Absolutely not. Do I believe there are other life forms out there that resemble our microorganisms, bugs, or even small to large mammals? Yes.


No intelligent life? Kinda arrogant, no?
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Zeppi
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:59 am

Classa64 wrote:
You could try the Drake equation to get some idea how many

Yup. And if we take into account how many exoplanets, many potentially habitable, were found just in our neighbourhood in recent years by the Spitzer and Kepler missions, I think it's pretty safe to say that the universe must be buzzing with life - most likely lots of intelligent life too.

Why we haven't met or even detected a sign of them yet? Well, as tommy pointed out the means of EM communications are really futile to communicate over such vast distances. So unless there's someone broadcasting from "right next door" the chances are slim to none to detect it. And if they have detected us, they'll be so highly advanced that all they'd do is passively study us without any form of direct involvement, until we have evolved to such a level where an interaction would make any sense.

Additionally we are really just making babysteps in our technological evolution, not even a century of serious communication and space travel development. Now imagine what a civilisation that has been technically evolving for say, a million years, would most likely be capable of. More than likely things we can't even imagine now, it would be a bit like telling a neanderthal who is celebrating his campfire that we can produce energy by splitting or fusing atoms.

About interstellar travel, well, FTL travel by means of the alcubierre drive is already mathematically feasible, we just have no means to turn the numbers into a practical application, let alone produce the energy required for even a short FTL jump - yet!

If we manage to keep up our development and not destroy ourselves we may just master it at some point in the distant future. But the are many hurdles to overcome, we've seen the world plunge into a dark age before. The ancient egyptians were pretty good at astrophysics for their time, calculating earth's diameter, circumference and the distance to the sun. Then along came the religions and the world went to shits, a lot of this knowledge was even proactively destroyed by them. Only when brave scientist like Galileo started challenging the religions again we started to pick up some development momentum again. When I see what's going on today, with things like flat earth or creationism on the rise again, I actually do get somewhat scared about what the future might hold. When looking for intelligent life, I'm not even convinced we can count humankind as such in its current state...
 
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:09 am

salttee wrote:
I assume they're talking about reflected visible light.


We can't see any planets beyond our own solar system using reflected light. We're finding planets in other solar systems using the Transit Method.Image
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:09 pm

fr8mech wrote:

Super80Fan wrote:
Depends on what we mean by "alien". Do I believe in human like creatures that walk, talk, have their own society, maybe green? Absolutely not. Do I believe there are other life forms out there that resemble our microorganisms, bugs, or even small to large mammals? Yes.


No intelligent life? Kinda arrogant, no?


If you could provide some unbiased proof/evidence that would be appreciated. You can probably find it with evidence that Big Foot exists, all mass shootings are fake, and the Twin Towers were really holograms. :roll:
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:04 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
fr8mech wrote:

Super80Fan wrote:
Depends on what we mean by "alien". Do I believe in human like creatures that walk, talk, have their own society, maybe green? Absolutely not. Do I believe there are other life forms out there that resemble our microorganisms, bugs, or even small to large mammals? Yes.


No intelligent life? Kinda arrogant, no?


If you could provide some unbiased proof/evidence that would be appreciated.


Nah, your hypothesis was: "microbes and stuff yes, intelligent life no", so you need to demonstrate first that you have sufficient evidence to conclude that life itself is prolific, but intelligent life isn't just much more rare than life itself, but that intelligent life comparable to ours is unique. Evolution doesn't give any clues why that would be so, and since evolution is a fact, your extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof.
And evidence is always unbiased.
You can probably find it with evidence that Big Foot exists, all mass shootings are fake, and the Twin Towers were really holograms. :roll:


Evidence of either can only exist if they were true.

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Tugger
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:28 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
And evidence is always unbiased.

There is no evidence of intelligent life anywhere else in the universe.

You are both speaking with the same information, suppositions and hypothesis, estimates and educated guesses. And the truth is we do not know so we discuss "what could be".

Tugg
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Jalap
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:52 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
If you could provide some unbiased proof/evidence that would be appreciated.

The proof would be Earth.
If it happened here, and there are probably billions of similar planets, then I think it's safe to assume it happened elsewhere as well.
If you think what happened here is unique despite the mind-bogglingly enormous amount of opportunities of it happening on other planets, then I think the it's up to you to form an argumentation. Why would one assume the chance of developing intelligent life would be lower than say 1/1.000.000.000.000 if we have studied only 3 suitable planets and 1 has intelligent life?
 
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:01 am

Jalap wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
If you could provide some unbiased proof/evidence that would be appreciated.

The proof would be Earth.
If it happened here, and there are probably billions of similar planets, then I think it's safe to assume it happened elsewhere as well.
If you think what happened here is unique despite the mind-bogglingly enormous amount of opportunities of it happening on other planets, then I think the it's up to you to form an argumentation. Why would one assume the chance of developing intelligent life would be lower than say 1/1.000.000.000.000 if we have studied only 3 suitable planets and 1 has intelligent life?

Here is why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nCOhrYV7eg

Many make the gross assumption and mistake that goes: Because we exist then others must exist.
But we have no true method or model to test and compare how we came about and how that actually compares to the universe at large. Mere existence is not proof of existence of others, other things, events etc. We do not know nor can currently prove what events are required for this, nor what events preclude intelligent life leading to what we are.

And I am a fan of the concept that yes there is more intelligent life in the, not just universe but the galaxy. But though dolphins are known to have the capacity for high intelligence and have demonstrated intelligence, it appears they are so well adapted for there environment that they do not need to create tools etc. and so natural selection has not selected for that ability, and is that ability that leads to creation of things that might, maybe lead to the ability to leave a planet.

It took me a long time to understand why I am so lucky to live during a time when I can look to the sky and wonder and conceptualize other futures or think about teaching my children to do, to be, to live for, more. And the reason why I am so lucky is because this is the only time I know, this is just when I happen to be here. Any other compilation of genes or time frame for being raised and poof, no me. There is no other time I could or would or will ever happen. Likewise, we think there must be other intelligent life because we are here. But it could be that we are just "lucky" and here we are. (Hope that makes sense.)

Tugg
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fr8mech
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:11 am

Super80Fan wrote:
If you could provide some unbiased proof/evidence that would be appreciated. You can probably find it with evidence that Big Foot exists, all mass shootings are fake, and the Twin Towers were really holograms. :roll:


So, if you can't see it, feel it, hear it, etc., it can't exist? Good thing scientists don't feel that way.

Is there intelligent life out there? I've no clue, but it is arrogant to assume we are all that's it; that we are the only intelligent life in the entire known and unknown universe.

If the universe is infinite, as some postulate, then it is automatic that there is an infinite amount of solar systems with planets, that there is an infinite amount of planets, that there are is an infinite amount of habitable planets, that there is an infinite amount of habitable planets with life and intelligent life.

Personally, I'm not sure the universe is infinite...maybe I just can't wrap my head around that concept.

Tugger wrote:
There is no evidence of intelligent life anywhere else in the universe.


Correct, that doesn't mean that it does not exist, just that we haven't observed it.
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Tugger
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:46 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Tugger wrote:
There is no evidence of intelligent life anywhere else in the universe.


Correct, that doesn't mean that it does not exist, just that we haven't observed it.

Oh yes, absolutely. And it could be infinitely difficult to actually "observe" based on the currently understood laws of physics for the universe. But again, our statements are both true, what you state doesn't mean life is more likely any more than my statement means it is less likely.

One other theory is that the universe is young, and we are early in the development of life in it.
https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/ ... e-universe

We think a billion years is a long time, but in cosmological terms how long is long?

One thing too, as has been touched on above there is life, then there is intelligent life, and then there is life that is interstellar capable (or at least capable of moving beyond it own cradle planet). I tend to lean toward the idea that the first to are "relatively easy", life happens and there are likely many, many possible chances out there. But the third option is the really tough one, the ability to harness enough power to move off world without also destroying yourself seems formidable. And as I note the idea of moving off planet is very different from being able to spread beyond one's home system to others.

Again, I really hope we can detect other life out there but I am not holding my breath as I think it is not an easy thing to do.

Tugg
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tommy1808
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:35 pm

Tugger wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
And evidence is always unbiased.

There is no evidence of intelligent life anywhere else in the universe.

You are both speaking with the same information, suppositions and hypothesis, estimates and educated guesses. And the truth is we do not know so we discuss "what could be".

Tugg


That is exactly my point, Tugger. This thread is about probabilities, and discussion is along that line. But Super80Fan made an absolute statement, and demanded evidence when that was called out, while he is the one that needs to provide evidence for that statement.
Intelligence has arisen several time on this planet, societies have arisen several times on this planet. We had at least two species with religion*, three with art and a multitude with use of tools. That does proof that whatever makes our society a society of intelligent beings is rare, but not unique. Looking at earth evolutionary history it would appear the multicellur life is the most complicated step, but I can not think of any feature we have, that hasn't arisen multiple times in the last 500 million years. So, the assumption that we are unique may have some probability we may guess at, but as an absolute statement that requires extraordinary evidence.

Best regards
Thomas

*Elephants have burial rituals that look a lot like in ancient times with burial gifts like food and flower, and are moon worshippers, ritual bathing and all.
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:43 pm

Tugger wrote:
Again, I really hope we can detect other life out there but I am not holding my breath as I think it is not an easy thing to do.

Tugg


If we detect life outside our solar system, it will be fair to assume it is truly prolific. We may be able to detect signs of life directly within a few decades, but only for nearby exo-planets. There are some hard physical limitations how far that can be build up. That goes for radio and light. Hence it is unlikely that we will detect anything but extremely advanced species, that have technology that modulates the light of their home planets sun on an almost planet level magnitude that is distinguishable from a planets effects. That makes it also unlikely for anyone to find us before we get to that stage.

It would probably be way cool, but I would not bet a single € on it.

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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:29 am

fr8mech wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
We apparently inhabit a multiverse.


Nope, I don’t buy that. I’m no astrophysicist, or theoretical astrophysicist,


Then you lack sufficient education on the matter to make a legitimate opinion. You should approach highly technical subjects with curiosity and humility if you are not an expert in that subject.
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EstherLouise
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:22 am

I believe in the known. :lol:

Image
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acentauri
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:53 am

My biggest regret in life is that I was born 500 years too early and will miss out on earth's most interesting times. Of course there is always the possibility that in 500 years, there will be no earth. If there are existing alien civilizations capable of interstellar travel, they likely don't even realize that drop in the bucket Earth even exists. We haven't even been able to send a manned vehicle to Mars yet (2030s Maybe??) , other than with the help of 20th Century Fox, so the thought of visiting our nearest exoplanet candidate is overwhelming. We need to stop thinking propulsion driven space vehicles or we'll be at this forever and concentrate on finding ways of folding space as a mechanism for travel. BTW, we have been visited by Aliens in the past. The Roswell, NM bodies are still in chambers waiting for a decision from the President to either dispose of them, or put them on permanent display at Trump Tower. :spin: :spin:
 
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:04 am

DocLightning wrote:
Then you lack sufficient education on the matter to make a legitimate opinion. You should approach highly technical subjects with curiosity and humility if you are not an expert in that subject.


Personally, I don't believe it's a highly technical subject and smacks more of fantasy, not even science fiction. And, my opinion is legitimate, since I made it, and can confirm I made it. Whether it's an informed opinion or not is a completely different matter.
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tommy1808
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:20 am

fr8mech wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
Then you lack sufficient education on the matter to make a legitimate opinion. You should approach highly technical subjects with curiosity and humility if you are not an expert in that subject.


Personally, I don't believe it's a highly technical subject and smacks more of fantasy, not even science fiction. .


Well, no matter how hard you believe that, it doesn´t make it any more true. If there wasn´t hard data supporting the idea of a multiverse, scientists wouldn´t be talking about it.

There is for example a cold spot in the CMB that has an about 2% probability of forming by coincidence, and 98% chance of forming another way, one of which being our universe having slightly touched another bubble universe. Or why not try Hawkins last paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1707.07702v2.pdf

You will see it is a very, very technical concept.And it is peer reviewed, so you can rely on the math being correct.

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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:30 am

salttee wrote:
Notice that we have detected no coherent signal that indicates another advanced society.


It doesn't really mean anything though.There could be lots of signals from another advanced society that we don't know about if our technology
is incapable of detecting/receiving those signals.
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tommy1808
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:45 am

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
salttee wrote:
Notice that we have detected no coherent signal that indicates another advanced society.


It doesn't really mean anything though.There could be lots of signals from another advanced society that we don't know about if our technology
is incapable of detecting/receiving those signals.


and we have no chance to see even a powerful radio transmitter for more than a few lightyears, even if we aim Arecibo right at it.

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fr8mech
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:59 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Well, no matter how hard you believe that, it doesn´t make it any more true. If there wasn´t hard data supporting the idea of a multiverse, scientists wouldn´t be talking about it.


Oh, I'm not disputing that. I'm sure there are plenty of scientists studying it, talking about it, postulating about it, etc. Scientists talk about a lot of things, with or without hard data. I may be completely wrong on it. I kinda hope I'm wrong, to tell you the truth.

I'm just can't wrap my head around it, that's all. It seems fantastical...it really doesn't seem like it could be real. Yeah, yeah yeah, I know, flying, among other things, probably seemed a fantasy a few centuries ago.

Intelligent life in the universe is a much easier sell for me.
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:03 am

Tugger wrote:
Image


I remember receiving that map with an issue of NG in 1999. On the other side it had a very well illustrated rendering of our place not only in the milky way, but in the known universe. When people with whom I talked came on the topic of alien life and they said either "why would they come here to see us" or "there can't be such thing as aliens because we would know by now", I showed them the map and they became quit silent afterwards once I had explained what million or billion light years meant.
I have discovered that once people are truly captivated in their ignorance, they are generally unwilling to let the facts interfere.
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:16 pm

fr8mech wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
Then you lack sufficient education on the matter to make a legitimate opinion. You should approach highly technical subjects with curiosity and humility if you are not an expert in that subject.


Personally, I don't believe it's a highly technical subject and smacks more of fantasy, not even science fiction.


My physics professor was Andrei Linde, who is one of the physicists who formulated this theory. He only taught us basic mechanics, but on the last day of the class, he gave a lecture about his work. It involves high-level mathematics, and the mathematical formalisms behind the idea of a multiverse are pretty rock-solid (or seem so to me, but I'm not a physicist). This is a man who actually got Stephen Hawking to admit he was wrong about a thing or two. So, unless you're a Ph.D. level professor of theoretical physics and just haven't mentioned it, if you think you know something that one of the most highly-respected professors of Physics at Stanford doesn't know about his field of expertise, there's a word for that:

Hubris.
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:54 pm

DocLightning wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
Then you lack sufficient education on the matter to make a legitimate opinion. You should approach highly technical subjects with curiosity and humility if you are not an expert in that subject.


Personally, I don't believe it's a highly technical subject and smacks more of fantasy, not even science fiction.


My physics professor was Andrei Linde, who is one of the physicists who formulated this theory. He only taught us basic mechanics, but on the last day of the class, he gave a lecture about his work. It involves high-level mathematics, and the mathematical formalisms behind the idea of a multiverse are pretty rock-solid (or seem so to me, but I'm not a physicist). This is a man who actually got Stephen Hawking to admit he was wrong about a thing or two. So, unless you're a Ph.D. level professor of theoretical physics and just haven't mentioned it, if you think you know something that one of the most highly-respected professors of Physics at Stanford doesn't know about his field of expertise, there's a word for that:

Hubris.


Linde, fascinating that you studied under this guy...
Andrei Linde and Alexander Vilenkin, two geniuses who bucked the naysayers! And true gurus unafraid of the direction and territory in which that the math directs them, unlike Einstein.

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ER757
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:59 pm

DocLightning wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
Then you lack sufficient education on the matter to make a legitimate opinion. You should approach highly technical subjects with curiosity and humility if you are not an expert in that subject.


Personally, I don't believe it's a highly technical subject and smacks more of fantasy, not even science fiction.


My physics professor was Andrei Linde, who is one of the physicists who formulated this theory. He only taught us basic mechanics, but on the last day of the class, he gave a lecture about his work. It involves high-level mathematics, and the mathematical formalisms behind the idea of a multiverse are pretty rock-solid (or seem so to me, but I'm not a physicist). This is a man who actually got Stephen Hawking to admit he was wrong about a thing or two. So, unless you're a Ph.D. level professor of theoretical physics and just haven't mentioned it, if you think you know something that one of the most highly-respected professors of Physics at Stanford doesn't know about his field of expertise, there's a word for that:

Hubris.

Hi Doc - glad you checked in on this topic - I mentioned upthread that you made very informative post on a similar topic a few years ago explaining why if there is advanced life elsewhere it is quite likely carbon-based and needs liquid water. Darned if I can find it though - I am not very good at using the search feature. If you have time to state it again, many here would benefit from it - or maybe you're good with the search tool and can track it down
 
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Tugger
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:25 pm

ER757 wrote:
or maybe you're good with the search tool and can track it down

Found it! :biggrin:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1212457&p=17923523&hilit=water+life#p17923523

Feb 3 2011 Post #20 DocLightning Wrote:
I think the predictions on carbon-based life are pretty sound. We've found carbon-based amino acids and other simple organic compounds in nebulae and on comets. We've never found any silicon-based (or other element-based) equivalents.

Given the laws of physics, it's pretty reasonable to assume that any life would have to be organic based.

BTW, there's this misconception that silicon-based life, if it existed, would exist as something crystalline. But that makes as much sense as saying that carbon-based life would exist as charcoal. It is the vast variety of compounds that carbon can form, from the gaseous CO2 to the soft, pliable tissues of the human body, to diamond that makes it such a versatile element. We are made of carbon ore.

There's also a good reason why we are pretty sure that liquid water would be necessary: if we grant that carbon-based chemistry is essential, most of the necessary reactions must happen in a polar solvent that can be readily protonated and deprotonated. In a volume of pure water, there is an equilibrium: H2O OH- + H3O+. The hydrogen ion from one water can jump off of one water molecule leaving the negatively-charged hydroxide ion (OH-) and joining another water molecule to form the positively-charged hydronium ion (H3O+). At the temperatures and pressures at which liquid water can exist, this hydrogen ion (proton) exchange occurs quite readily and is the very basis for the vast majority of bioreactions.

Other polar solvents do exist. The best candidate is ammonia (NH3), which is also polar and exists in equilibrium with amide (NH2-) and amonium (NH4+). However, at the temperatures and pressures at which liquid ammonia can exist, the equilibrium constants for the NH3 NH2- + NH4+ work out such that any biological processes would take a "very long time," which is to say that it would take far longer than the age of the universe for even the simplest life to form. And other important reactions (oxidation, reduction, ionization from cosmic rays, etc.) would occur much more quickly, pretty much making ammonia-based life very unlikely.

So if there is life, it's probably carbon-based and probably relies on liquid water. But within those constraints there is a wide array of possibilities. It's estimated that a good half of earth's total biomass exists deep in volcanic vents in superheated, super-pressurized water at above the normal boiling point of 100°C.

It's not even clear that cellular life is required. While all life does need a clear "inside vs. outside" border, it could be that complex life forms on other planets could exist as large syncitia (cells without any clear division between each-other, like mammalian muscle fibers) or some other architecture.

So there are a lot of possibilities, but we do have good reason to suppose that 1) carbon and 2) liquid water are basic requirements.
-Doc Lightning-


Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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ER757
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:15 pm

Tugger wrote:
ER757 wrote:
or maybe you're good with the search tool and can track it down

Found it! :biggrin:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1212457&p=17923523&hilit=water+life#p17923523

Great detective work Tugger - that's exactly the one I was thinking of
And belated kudos to DocLightning for that great explanation.
Fortunately for those of us hoping there is life elsewhere - water and carbon compounds seem to be quite common throughout the part of the Cosmos we've been able to explore
 
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:06 am

DocLightning wrote:
Hubris.


Doc, I respect you, but you're rather defensive here, I'm not sure why.

I've noted that I can't wrap my mind around the concept of multiple (infinite?) universes operating in parallel. Maybe, I just haven't applied myself to it. Maybe, I have the concept all wrong. Maybe, I find the mathematics incomprehensible (I do), but I'm just not there. And, to tell you the truth, this is the most thought I've ever given the subject outside reading some of Moorcock's novels and his (is the concept uniquely his?) Eternal Champion, and listening to the occasional Sheldon ramble on the subject.

So, no, my opinion is not informed, but it is my opinion, and as I stated earlier, would be happy to be proved wrong on the subject. The possibilities could be endless. But, in the end, just as others have expressed a strong opinion that intelligent alien life does not exist, without being "experts" in the field, my opinion is that a multiverse is more fantasy than science.
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DocLightning
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:29 pm

fr8mech wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
Hubris.


Doc, I respect you, but you're rather defensive here, I'm not sure why.


Because people who have no education in a scientific subject but claim that they can make grand declarations around it is the reasons we have global warming denialists, anti-vaxxers, an anti-GMO movement, and a burgeoning snake oi...excuse me... "alternative medicine" market in which people literally kill themselves for someone else's profit. It's all fun and games until the planet gets trashed, children die needlessly, and our food supply is compromised.

Believe it or not, science is not something that's simple to learn. During my education, I spent many a long night struggling to wrap my mind around some truly staggering scientific concepts. When there are arguments about, say, global warming, I defer to people who actually understand meteorology and climatology, like einsteinboricua. If the issue is about biology and medicine, then that's my field. It took twelve years of postsecondary education to learn the things I know. You also won't see me lecturing at many of the pilots and aircraft mechanics, engineers, and aerodynamicists on this site about their fields or making crazy declarations that vorticity is a conservative conspiracy, or that Bernoulli's equation is bunk.

So when someone who has never even taken an introductory cosmology course starts making declarations about advanced cosmological theories, I'm going to call him out on it.

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
― Isaac Asimov

But if maybe my verbal lashing has made you stop and consider, then here's a quick introduction to the topic. You might want to brush up on your calculus first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32wIKaLkvc4
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Andre3K
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:48 pm

The real questions are, why do the VAST majority of alien abductions- #1. Mostly abduct low IQ flyover town white people (but also apparently lots of Mexicans living in Mexico) #2. Always seem to involve butt probing as if this is a mystery to a creature capable of traveling across the universe and #3 Leave no evidence, and if they do its the kind that can be explained rather easily.

Humans are always thinking we are so interesting. Think of it this way, how long would you need to study a frog to know everything about it? Not very long, so we are to aliens as frogs are to us.

Yes I believe there is other life out there, but I don't think it's been to Earth anytime in recent history.
 
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:39 am

DocLightning wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
Hubris.


Doc, I respect you, but you're rather defensive here, I'm not sure why.


Because people who have no education in a scientific subject but claim that they can make grand declarations around it is the reasons we have global warming denialists, anti-vaxxers, an anti-GMO movement, and a burgeoning snake oi...excuse me... "alternative medicine" market in which people literally kill themselves for someone else's profit. It's all fun and games until the planet gets trashed, children die needlessly, and our food supply is compromised.


So when someone who has never even taken an introductory cosmology course starts making declarations about advanced cosmological theories, I'm going to call him out on it.

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
― Isaac Asimov

But if maybe my verbal lashing has made you stop and consider, then here's a quick introduction to the topic. You might want to brush up on your calculus first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32wIKaLkvc4


Fr8mech, the person featured in the YT link provide is a suggestion in the right direction if you really wish to embark on the path of being able to 'wrap your head' around understanding Cosmology, tat person is Leonard Susskind, formerly a simple plumber....and dealing with all those drains and holes in previous employment afforded him a unique prospective of 'black holes' as he pursued career in Theoretical Physics. He is one of the leading proponents of String Theory and everything Quantum. I love listening the this guy, he's able to easily translate scientific explanations into the vernacular of the common man with incredible ease. Consider this is a generous gift (of direction), thanking Doc instead of being offended by his replies is more in order of being miffed...without a doubt, one will prove far more enlightening than the other.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:22 pm

BN747 wrote:
=BN747


This man is wise, Fr8mech, and I would take his counsel.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
BN747
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:58 pm

DocLightning wrote:
BN747 wrote:
=BN747


This man is wise, Fr8mech, and I would take his counsel.


Thank you Doc, coming from someone of your caliber, that is a comment worthy of framing.

But I'm going to offer another gift Fr8mech (although I'm no fan of many of his past comments on social matters) , I have no qualms of assisting by sharing what little knowledge I can if it will aid anyone in anyway than I can when in pursuit of greater knowledge.

This link I'm providing is the perfect gateway for ANYONE, like myself, meaning one that fails miserably at the mathematics required to execute the necessary computations to reach proven conclusions the world's top astrophysicists, theoretical physicists and cosmologists guided us toward learning more and more than we can understand regarding our place in the cosmos.

The BBC did an excellent production with it's Horizons series, this one titled Infinity and Beyond.

If geometry, (I believe it was Socrates or his student Aristotle who inscribed the following over their established Academy 'let he who is ignorant of geometry be forbidden entry to this Academy' - or words to that effect. But if you are one who yearns deeply to understand all this ever expanding talk (and growing pervasive viewing material aka tv/movies/docs), discussion and debates and think you MUST have a grasp of Geometry, Calculus and other mathematical tools in order to engage or partake...

...I say, not so fast! This program...

BBC Infinity and Beyond
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x65uv69

...will set you on you onto a path from which there is no return. Meaning it will indeed alter the way you think and view .. everything beyond the Earth. If you are one of these people, and your brain has a reasonable foundation based in common sense. You will find yourself watching it again and again and again. Followed by your craving for more information , more amateur level introductions to astrophysics.
Hell it cause me to go out and purchase a telescope and start stargazing years ago. And once you've seen Saturn and it's rings with your own telescope and your own eyes...your brain is never the same again. Along with viewing Jupiter, you begin to realize ..yeah, we're pretty insignificant on grand scale that is this particular universe. Earth is like fart, this Universe farts away earths and earth-like items like...every minute or so...it's like you remembering a fart when you 2 or 3 years old - You DON'T!

The program begins with questioning children on 'what is the biggest number?'.. and then it takes off on sharing a peek into the minds of the worlds foremost mathematicians and physicists & astrophysicist.
First, I searched youtube only to find the full program does not exist there, since Google yield this result, it in tun introduces you into what a Googol is, if you do not know already. So word to the wise...use a video downloading app (as it plays) to download a permanent copy for yourself to view as much as you like.

On another note, A.net member Tugger in post#6 of this thread provided a great expandable image of the Milky Way, I used this establish my Bible Killer theory.

The Sun and it's children planets are believed to be located between Sagittarius and Perseus Arms of the Milky Way Galaxy.

I selected a tiny star in that region.

I then showed a Bible believing friend, the estimated time of the Milky Way to complete a single rotation - from starting point and return. It is estimated to take between 220 to 250 million years for the Milky Way to accomplish this. It does so at a velocity of approximately 858,000 kph (or over 600,000 mph). I sliced the pie (the Milky Way) into 220 Million divides (not really, as that would take 7 or 8 years to achieve) but as to mean a single partition is a one million year slice of time (and distance the Sun/Earth moved in that time)...

...and pointed out that in that singular 1 million year period, human existence came into being ...and then somewhere along the linear span, they wrote a book and proclaimed it knows exactly how all this came into being.

So I asked, just how ludicrous does that seem? How can you be present in a place such a incredibly short span of time and declare that you know it all came together???!

It's just not possible, it's like like someone landing in New York for the very first time and claiming at the end of the day, you know NYC and everything about it .. like you know the back of your hand. Which is impossible! Because we all know people from New York who've lived there all their lives and still get lost in a heartbeat (and being the perennial subway passenger in no way means you can figure out where you're going if you had to walk or drive it from any given point - although there are some who master it extremely well. For a non-native and having never lived there, I'm pretty damn good at tooling around Manhattan, Brooklyn and Queens with ease (but geography has always been a huge obsession of mine). Back to the point.... the Bible should have come with an Eraser, that way the believers wouldn't find themselves painted in the corner in which the numerous contradictions has placed them!

My fellow non-skilled, mathematically challenged brothers out there...jump in, here's your ticket, there's no need to sit own the sidelines and remain mum as long as you come away with more than you had when before watching. To the few A.net brainiacs, you guys already know what's featured here...so go plane spotting or something or aid the not-so-fortunate in this regard.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:21 am

I certainly believe that life probably exists all over the universe (which is obviously a huge place), but I also think that intelligent life on par with humankind is probably a minority of what's out there and intelligent life capable of interstellar travel is exceptionally rare if it's out there at all. I also strongly suspect that most intelligent life forms that evolved into civilizations evolved much the same way we have and probably wipe themselves out before they ever scratch the surface of interstellar travel.
Picked a hell of a week to quit sniffing glue.
 
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Zeppi
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:30 am

@BN747, great vid, didn't know that one yet, thanks for sharing. Very much enjoyed it, especially the hotel analogy. Goes to show how much we have yet to learn, one might just say infinitely much ;)
 
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:27 am

Having spent many years researching the Extraterrestrial phenomena, watching many interviews of supposed "alien" abductions, and critically analyzing the physical properties & characteristics displayed by these beings, I, along with most of the world's leading ufologists, have come to the conclusion that what are popularly called "Aliens" today, are nothing more than the Demons of generations past. This is a deductive inference to the best explanation.
The atheistic claim to "reason" is more a matter of public relations than competence in reasoned debate.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:14 pm

dik909 wrote:
that what are popularly called "Aliens" today, are nothing more than the Demons of generations past. This is a deductive inference to the best explanation.


Keyword "Sleep paralysis", our brains build in LSD trip.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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dik909
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:59 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

Keyword "Sleep paralysis", our brains build in LSD trip.

Best regards
Thomas


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOMCzaGeXgw
The atheistic claim to "reason" is more a matter of public relations than competence in reasoned debate.
 
BN747
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:13 pm

dik909 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Keyword "Sleep paralysis", our brains build in LSD trip.

Best regards
Thomas


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOMCzaGeXgw


What a waste of time this Chris White fellow. This program is 1 hour 21 minutes long and should only be watched if insomnia is killing u or you are forced to listen Fox Bews for the same length of time.

This guys shallow ambiguous peek into of how his guilt of being a rock n roll heathen knee deep in groupie sex is about as vague as getting Traitor Trump to give you more details beyond ‘beautifully or biggest anyone has ever seen anywhere’ as he flails at locating specifics of every from his mouth.

When someone is that elusive of the things they shied away from (dodging their motivating sins that took them there) and blankets everything in between with a ‘it was all just a big misunderstanding...) you know they are full of sh*t and absconding on their share of responsibility.

And his blindly ‘follow Jesus’ Schtick is the same snake oil sales pitch as the line of ministers telling you how god stresses his need of another private jet.

So get your view on if u need more Jesus Juice cuz your supply is low or the world is just complicated for to cope. Good thing I only wasted 5 minutes...

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
DigitalSea
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:21 pm

Do I personally believe intelligent life exists outside of our solar system? Yes.

When it comes to contemplating other worldly life and the universe, I like to think about the following:

How do you universally define intelligent life?
Does it have to extensively manipulate its environment?
Does it have to be technologically advanced relative to other native species?
Does it require a written language?
Does it need to be able to leave its native planet?

Where are we in the timeline of organic evolution?
This would help us understand what to look for, we've come a long way since single celled organisms.
How much more can life forms evolve beyond our current state?

Is our understanding of the universe limited because of our current sensory perception?
What if there exists major aspects of our universe we cannot understand or observe due to an undeveloped sensory ability?

Can "life" exist on super-macro scales or super-micro scales that are beyond our comprehension?
Is the scale in which humans observe and interact with the universe the only relevant one?
How much bigger (or smaller) does our universe get?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:29 am

DigitalSea wrote:
How do you universally define intelligent life?


solving problems without using inherited behavior? That is so tough to define that we don´t have a universally accepted definition.

Does it have to extensively manipulate its environment?


very simple live has done that, for example by creating Oxygen, killing almost everything living with them.

Does it have to be technologically advanced relative to other native species?


accumulation of knowledge very probably is a sign of intelligence, but technology? Nah, Humans didn´t have technology for that long and we have no reason to think humans where less intelligent 10 or 20k years ago.

Does it require a written language?
Does it need to be able to leave its native planet?


no, for the same reason.

Is our understanding of the universe limited because of our current sensory perception?


Science is data driven and long past things we can perceive with our own senses.
Side note, we now find women with functional tetrachromatic vision in the "wild" ......isn´t that cool?

Can "life" exist on super-macro scales or super-micro scales that are beyond our comprehension?


Quantum physics creates a pretty tough lower boundary how small stuff can get , but i don´t see a reason why there would be an upper limit. Fred Hoyle´s "Black Cloud" is quite cool in that regards (solar system sized life forms).

How much bigger (or smaller) does our universe get?


It gets smaller and bigger at the same time. Bigger, because it is still undergoing an accelerating expansion, but the amount of stuff we can actually see in the universe becomes less and less, since stuff is moving beyond our horizon.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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dik909
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:30 am

BN747 wrote:
What a waste of time this Chris White fellow. This program is 1 hour 21 minutes long and should only be watched if insomnia is killing u or you are forced to listen Fox Bews for the same length of time.


People today want complex issues to be resolved in five minutes. Is that really such a reasonable expectation for something as controversial and in-depth as the alien phenomena ? C'mon now...

BN747 wrote:
This guys shallow ambiguous peek into of how his guilt of being a rock n roll heathen knee deep in groupie sex is about as vague as getting Traitor Trump to give you more details beyond ‘beautifully or biggest anyone has ever seen anywhere’ as he flails at locating specifics of every from his mouth.


Please, Ad Hominems have no place in well-reasoned debate. Address his claims, not his character.

BN747 wrote:
When someone is that elusive of the things they shied away from (dodging their motivating sins that took them there) and blankets everything in between with a ‘it was all just a big misunderstanding...) you know they are full of sh*t and absconding on their share of responsibility.


What do you believe he is eluding ?

BN747 wrote:
And his blindly ‘follow Jesus’ Schtick is the same snake oil sales pitch as the line of ministers telling you how god stresses his need of another private jet.


I don't know why Chris White believes, but, if you'll expose yourself to strong theology and historical epistemology, you'll find that belief in Jesus is far more warranted than any alternative worldview. Even so, to reject a belief based on how one came to that belief is to commit the Genetic Fallacy. As for the private jet claim, I submit that these mega-preachers are preaching a false gospel to deluded sheep who don't open their Bibles.

BN747 wrote:
So get your view on if u need more Jesus Juice cuz your supply is low or the world is just complicated for to cope. Good thing I only wasted 5 minutes...


Incredulous much ? Intellectual honesty means exposing one's self to the strongest arguments against one's own. To that end, I hope you don't rest upon your laurels. Here's a 17-minute redux of the aforelinked video, which hits just on the heaviest/major points:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6UtDJj4ZF0

All the best,
dik909
The atheistic claim to "reason" is more a matter of public relations than competence in reasoned debate.
 
BN747
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:07 pm

dik909 wrote:
People today want complex issues to be resolved in five minutes. Is that really such a reasonable expectation for something as controversial and in-depth as the alien phenomena ? C'mon now...


Not sure where you are going with this, but if you thought that I was seeking the atypical 'microwave mentality' addressing of this clown's journey to Jesus...you're gravely mistaken.

My comments were aimed at the telltale (obvious) markers present when someone comes across as the typical con-artist out hawking big ticket items focused on a large audience ripe for the pickings. They are who this clown is addressing, not individual ears. Meaning, he's simply targeting those who may be sitting on the edge 'considering jumping ship (belief wise). Therefore the tactic employed is one of 'yeah, I was bad (sans any details), but I saw the light and therefore I redirected my life blah, blah, blah..). I've done my time trying convince the masses who've took the Jesus plunge and I've reached the point of virtually zero-tolerance to listening to those taking it upon themselves to keep the herd corralled in bullshit. To the mind of 'the faithful', I'm already doomed and from where I sit, they're doomed and condemned to a life laced in ignorance. We live in a society (those with internet access) where it is quite simple to challenge the prepackaged horeshit (religion) with little due diligence and effort. For instance, reading a Bible (or sections of) written 100 years ago, followed by one even older, and so on. Contradictions, redactions, re-wording and all sorts of red flags avail themselves. It doesn't hurt to have written a few things yourself in order to spot the markings of biased, selfish one-sided BS'er of an author. Not to mention the snake oil sales man out to perpetuate the product being sold - in this case that being Jesus.


BN747 wrote:
What do you believe he is eluding ?


Wholesale chunks of why his journey to Jesus was unique juxtaposed to others. Just saying I was 'a bad boy' doesn't cut it - I mean, who wasn't?
It's all bull. And ALL of these clowns spew favored verses and passages meant to lead to bright cheery conclusions, none of the favor nor dwell
on the more distasteful despicable and bleak sections.

Basically, if you know how to spot a con-man, you can not be a Trump voter/supporter. If you cannot detect it, you are doomed to fall sucker forever.
If you've never been in a fist fight, you can easily spot someone who hasn't a clue about about self-defense or the signs of one about to erupt.
(or in the case of Trump and Trump-like characters, the tough guy talk...is just that, tough guy talk..something bully-cowards employ at every opportunity.
It's simple, tune into a WWF event...see the crowds? (They voluntarily paid to be there)...yeah suckers every single one of them.
If you've never been to Hollywood Celebrity Party, TMZ can show all they want, but the actual experience a world apart from what the viewer thinks that it is.
If you've never been to Cuba, all the youtube videos of old clunkers and barely paved roads will tell you little and fail miserably to mimic the actual experience....
But most people, largely by way of our teachings are slow learners (esp. of valuable subjects and incidents) and poor processors of information,
they're already standing pins lined up for the con-man with the bowling ball in hand. It works every time. See P.T. Barnum.

dik909 wrote:
I don't know why Chris White believes, but, if you'll expose yourself to strong theology and historical epistemology, you'll find that belief in Jesus is far more warranted than any alternative worldview. Even so, to reject a belief based on how one came to that belief is to commit the Genetic Fallacy. As for the private jet claim, I submit that these mega-preachers are preaching a false gospel to deluded sheep who don't open their Bibles.


Just because "belief in Jesus is far more warranted than any alternative worldview"...which equals about a 3rd of the World's population falls for the perennial perpetuation of nonsense doesn't mean I MUST join them. I've witnessed too much empirical evidence that these people are deluding themselves (family members included) and they are very entitled to think of me as nuts, but as I stated above ...we are poor processors of information. Oh..and Atheism is on the rise, exponentially so.

dik909 wrote:
Incredulous much ? Intellectual honesty means exposing one's self to the strongest arguments against one's own. To that end, I hope you don't rest upon your laurels. Here's a 17-minute redux of the aforelinked video, which hits just on the heaviest/major points:


No thanks, you keep that one in a safe place where you can reach it when YOU need it. I think I know what mean by 'intellectual honesty' but if it also entails me listening to every fool who has a new take on Jesus, Allah and whoever is in third place....sorry, those days have long past, and you count me out that part of 'intellectual honesty'. I've done the Jesus dance, they even told me at one point 'I spoke in tongues (the language of angels)..until I realized I basically babbling like an idiot. I've crossed the Rubicon when it comes to ALL things religion and spirituality...this is just geo-centric musings taken to extreme. They may have the numbers, but I don't have to join 'em. And I'm much much happier without the likes of them in my life.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
tommy1808
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:50 pm

BN747 wrote:
Just because "belief in Jesus is far more warranted than any alternative worldview"...which equals about a 3rd of the World's population falls for the perennial perpetuation of nonsense doesn't mean I MUST join them.


I do wonder if that nonsense "argument" goes away when Islam has overtaken Christianity. I find it also quite hilarious that those arguments always count all people confessing to being Christans, even when some of those sects are mutually exclusive when it comes to recognizing each other at Christians in the first place...

dik909 wrote:
Incredulous much ? Intellectual honesty means exposing one's self to the strongest arguments against one's own. To that end, I hope you don't rest upon your laurels. Here's a 17-minute redux of the aforelinked video, which hits just on the heaviest/major points:


No thanks, you keep that one in a safe place where you can reach it when YOU need it.


It is worth the 30 seconds until it falls apart. People only see demons during sleep paralysis if they believe demons are real, if they don't, they see other stuff.
So, if you want to stop demons showing up at your bed, become an atheist or join a religion without demons.... problem solved.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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dik909
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Re: Do You Believe In Aliens

Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:10 am

BN747 wrote:
dik909 wrote:
People today want complex issues to be resolved in five minutes. Is that really such a reasonable expectation for something as controversial and in-depth as the alien phenomena ? C'mon now...


Not sure where you are going with this...


I was going to make the point that perhaps your attention span has been stunted by pop culture.

BN747 wrote:
We live in a society (those with internet access) where it is quite simple to challenge the prepackaged horeshit (religion) with little due diligence and effort.


"We live in a society (those with internet access) where it is quote simple to challenge the prepackaged horeshit [sic] (anti-theism/religion) with little due diligence and effort." /fixed

BN747 wrote:
For instance, reading a Bible (or sections of) written 100 years ago, followed by one even older, and so on. Contradictions, redactions, re-wording and all sorts of red flags avail themselves. It doesn't hurt to have written a few things yourself in order to spot the markings of biased, selfish one-sided BS'er of an author. Not to mention the snake oil sales man out to perpetuate the product being sold - in this case that being Jesus.


Interesting you should bring that up, because I just so happen to be somewhat of an amateur New Testament scholar who specializes in Textual Criticism, transmission of the Bible analyzing the extant Greek manuscripts, and analyzing variants between manuscripts. And, what I'm sure will surprise you, is that even agnostic/atheistic Bible scholars admit that no single variant affects any core/cardinal Christian doctrine, i.e. virgin birth, miracles, crucifixion & resurrection, post-mortem appearances, etc.

After all, I was not born into Christianity; I came to my current beliefs several years ago after MUCH serious study on the historical Jesus, reliability of the New Testament, early church history, non-Christian evidences, etc... and of course Propaganda. I'm so grateful that I wasn't raised with any over-bearing religious indoctrination, and was instead free to investigate without any emotional biases.

BN747 wrote:
dik909 wrote:
I don't know why Chris White believes, but, if you'll expose yourself to strong theology and historical epistemology, you'll find that belief in Jesus is far more warranted than any alternative worldview. Even so, to reject a belief based on how one came to that belief is to commit the Genetic Fallacy. As for the private jet claim, I submit that these mega-preachers are preaching a false gospel to deluded sheep who don't open their Bibles.


Just because "belief in Jesus is far more warranted than any alternative worldview"...which equals about a 3rd of the World's population falls for the perennial perpetuation of nonsense doesn't mean I MUST join them. I've witnessed too much empirical evidence that these people are deluding themselves (family members included) and they are very entitled to think of me as nuts, but as I stated above ...we are poor processors of information. Oh..and Atheism is on the rise, exponentially so.


Bandwagon fallacy - just because the majority of people believe something doesn't mean it's true; at one point the majority believed that teaching slaves to read was wrong, and that whites were evolutionarily superior.

BN747 wrote:
dik909 wrote:
Incredulous much ? Intellectual honesty means exposing one's self to the strongest arguments against one's own. To that end, I hope you don't rest upon your laurels. Here's a 17-minute redux of the aforelinked video, which hits just on the heaviest/major points:


No thanks, you keep that one in a safe place where you can reach it when YOU need it. I think I know what mean by 'intellectual honesty' but if it also entails me listening to every fool who has a new take on Jesus, Allah and whoever is in third place....sorry, those days have long past, and you count me out that part of 'intellectual honesty'. I've done the Jesus dance, they even told me at one point 'I spoke in tongues (the language of angels)..until I realized I basically babbling like an idiot. I've crossed the Rubicon when it comes to ALL things religion and spirituality...this is just geo-centric musings taken to extreme. They may have the numbers, but I don't have to join 'em. And I'm much much happier without the likes of them in my life.

BN747


I'm sorry you suffered abuse from religious zealous when you were younger. :( But, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yes many horrible acts have been committed in the name of Jesus, but I don't defend them. Jesus wouldn't have persecuted his enemies, Jesus wouldn't have forced Himself upon you. Jesus taught absolute love & forgiveness, and it is He whom I defend, not the church which so often fails Him.

(PS - The Pentecostal practice of "speaking in tongues" is a gross misapplication of the original Greek word 'glossa', which is translated everywhere else as Language; Paul & Luke wrote on being gifted with the ability to speak new previously-unknown languages, so as to spread the Gospel to gentile nations, not speak jibberish. Chapters 13-14 of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians goes in depth on how to interpret "speaking in tongues," but Pentecostals are quick to ignore these facts. This is why studying the original Greek and proper exegesis matters.)

All the best,
JD
The atheistic claim to "reason" is more a matter of public relations than competence in reasoned debate.

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