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tu204
Posts: 1915
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Interesting to see that people still go and protest the Putin regime. Of course it is dealt with force, in 80 cities 839 people got arrested in the protest. Will this be the beginning of real change? Or will this be put down with force and will there be some distraction like starting a war somewhere like in 2011?


Probably the protests will be put down by force like in the U.S. and the E.U. :roll: :lol:
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:07 pm

Has been put down by force, like it is done in Russia. Or in another way like organizing another protest countering this one. As long as the opposition is crushed, it seems to be fine by the Putin regime.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:13 am

Dutchy wrote:
Has been put down by force, like it is done in Russia. Or in another way like organizing another protest countering this one. As long as the opposition is crushed, it seems to be fine by the Putin regime.


Good for the opposition, that it has been done like in Russia, and not like in the USA. In Russia "opposition crushing" is more like a polite invitation to warm-up in a bus followed by relatively comfy stay in a special facility (which is not unlike a 3-star hotel) for a week or two, while in the USA it begins with face being inside the pavement, handcuffs behind the back and then - possibly up to 15 years in a maximum security prison for an attack on a police officer.
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:56 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Interesting how Russia is responding to all of this. Any country not only accused of such a chemical attack, but having those accusations plastered on headlines throughout the world, would be pretty furious (and rightly so) if they were false.


Furor or anger aren't signs of strength in dimplmacy, quite the contrary. They indicate normally that nothing you can do. And Russia - can. Much of response or actions against British interests are non-public in such cases.

Braybuddy wrote:
I would fully expect the British Ambassador to Russia to be called-in and given a carpeting, and if the accusations were not withdrawn, for members of the British diplomatic service to be expelled.


Diplomats have been expelled already. Russia expelled more British diplomats than British did - to eqialize the counts. And - it's easy to kick diplomats and ambassadors around, but it's very hard to rebuild the relationship later. Eventually dust settles, scandals go away, but it will take months of negotiations just to increase diplomat headcounts, and years or even decades to re-establish diplomatic relations. In this Western hysteria, it's not seen as important. Russians tend to think years and decades ahead. Their Western partners emphasize on getting re-elected, and lately - just get by without getting impeached or maidan-ed out.

Braybuddy wrote:
To prove their case, the Russians would have done their own investigations to find out who, and what country, were responsible, and for that country's ambassadors to be called-in for an explanation, or a dressing down. If some other country were responsible for this attack, the GRU would be working on this case full-time until the culprits were exposed. The accused agents did travel from Moscow, after all, and unless the GRU is completely incompetent, it wouldn't be difficult for them to find out exactly who they were and where they came from.


They are working on this case. Skripals are their citizens after all. It's just that they don't go accusing to the right and to the left. And it's too early for alternate results, it's not done in a day or two. Plus, British are refusing to cooperate or provide any info - hmm, why would they not, if they are so right? How about the following - "here is what we have when issuing their visa, keep us posted as you keep finding things!". But no - the answer is "nothing will be provided". Perhaps they have something to hide they do not want to be discovered? Normally such things are being thoroughly investigated and every detail checked by teams of investigators from each and every country involved. After all - ever wondered why do these things happen only in London? Former spies live all over - Europe, Canada, USA. But stuff a-la James Bond happens only in London. Russians are the best at waiting and knowing when to strike.

Braybuddy wrote:
I would fully expect Vladimir Putin to be banging his shoe at the UN until Russia was cleared, after all, his country's reputation is being exposed for what it is around the world. What do we have instead? Mild denials, "It wasn't us, must have been someone else", without offering any sort of evidence whatsoever. "The dog ate my homework" sort of defence. The British police have gone over the evidence with a fine-tooth comb, and come to conclusions which nobody is denying. The only argument on the Russian side seems to be "prove it", without offering one shred of evidence of who they think might be responsible.

Pretty damning in itself.


Yes, a lot can be done. But - as I mentioned, once things are done, it's not quick and easy to undo them. They can expel diplomats, enter trade war, exchange some tough talks even - sure. One thing that British seem to have forgot about - is that Vladimir Putin is one of 2 men on this planet capable of wiping that island, with its Theresa May, Skripals and all their problems from Earth's surface in 15 minutes. Even his predecessor Khruschev told them bluntly right in their Parliament about 50 years ago that they aren't unsinkable. Do you need to get to such extremes? Putin thinks globally, and does not want Russia to have reputation of someone who bangs shoes. Let Britain and America gain that reputation, and he'll ripe benefits of it. That's what he is after.
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:03 am

[twoid][/twoid]
Dutchy wrote:
Nope, no surprise. It is a shame really. Luckily we have newspapers and news organizations whom do this kind of investigation and can make a call what is fake and what isn't.


Do you still believe in your "newspapers" or "news organizations"? Not only they can't distinguish what is a fake and what isn't, but they don't mind redistributing fakes at all. How did the last fake about "Syrian chemical attack" end? I mentioned already - a member of a "news organization" asked a 10-year old "how much were you paid?". Pretty low. That's the peak of their capability.
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:05 am

Dutchy wrote:
And yet you feel perfectly comfortable defending the Putin regime. Now you go off the deep end, good luck crawling back.


What you call "Putin regime" does not support or encourage ideas of "filtration camps" and similar vocabulary. Unlike countries calling themselves "democratic" who prefer to not notice such things.
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:08 am

Dutchy wrote:
Don't know why you say this or what kind of special powers you think you have because of this, but I think that goes for at least 50% fo the people here, yours truly included. 8-)


In this case I am disappointed in this "mine truly". I hoped they'd think more about what they read, and not redistribute and defend fakes here. Especially having a chance to get an idea of likelihood that something is a fake.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:48 am

anrec80 wrote:
Furor or anger aren't signs of strength in dimplmacy, quite the contrary. They indicate normally that nothing you can do. And Russia - can. Much of response or actions against British interests are non-public in such cases.

Or it's a sign of guilt, hoping the whole embarrassing affair will disappear as quickly as possible.

anrec80 wrote:
Diplomats have been expelled already. Russia expelled more British diplomats than British did - to eqialize the counts. And - it's easy to kick diplomats and ambassadors around, but it's very hard to rebuild the relationship later. Eventually dust settles, scandals go away, but it will take months of negotiations just to increase diplomat headcounts, and years or even decades to re-establish diplomatic relations. In this Western hysteria, it's not seen as important. Russians tend to think years and decades ahead. Their Western partners emphasize on getting re-elected, and lately - just get by without getting impeached or maidan-ed out.

Only as retaliation for Russian diplomats expelled from London. Russia is -- strangely -- only being reactive in this case, not proactive, as anyone would expect them to be.

anrec80 wrote:
They are working on this case. Skripals are their citizens after all. It's just that they don't go accusing to the right and to the left. And it's too early for alternate results, it's not done in a day or two. Plus, British are refusing to cooperate or provide any info - hmm, why would they not, if they are so right? How about the following - "here is what we have when issuing their visa, keep us posted as you keep finding things!". But no - the answer is "nothing will be provided". Perhaps they have something to hide they do not want to be discovered? Normally such things are being thoroughly investigated and every detail checked by teams of investigators from each and every country involved. After all - ever wondered why do these things happen only in London? Former spies live all over - Europe, Canada, USA. But stuff a-la James Bond happens only in London. Russians are the best at waiting and knowing when to strike.

Very slowly, it would seem . . . The British traced those agents from their arrival to their departure, plus all their movements in between, building-up a pretty water-tight case and presenting it to Russia and the world. The ball is now in the Russians' court. All they have to do -- if they believe the agents were not Russian and not working for the GRU -- is to find out who they were and where they came from, and who exactly they were working for. Three simple tasks, you would think, for any competent intelligence service. The Brits can't help them there: they did fly from Moscow after all. And what other intelligence services are the Russians fingering in this case? They should be very keen to expose the culprits.

We look forward to your updates on the Russian investigations. :yes:

anrec80 wrote:
One thing that British seem to have forgot about - is that Vladimir Putin is one of 2 men on this planet capable of wiping that island, with its Theresa May, Skripals and all their problems from Earth's surface in 15 minutes.

Yet he's prepared to do nothing (apart from expel a few diplomats, and only in retaliation at that) when his country is accused of chemical attacks abroad? Putin likes to portray himself as a strong man, so why is he not only being weak, but allowing himself to appear so weak in the eyes of the world, in this case?
 
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scbriml
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:01 am

anrec80 wrote:
One thing that British seem to have forgot about - is that Vladimir Putin is one of 2 men on this planet capable of wiping that island, with its Theresa May, Skripals and all their problems from Earth's surface in 15 minutes.


It doesn't take you long to resort to violent threats, does it? :sarcastic:

Unlike you, Putin hasn't forgotten that the UK also possesses nuclear weapons, so would be saying goodbye to Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other nice places as well. Not to mention those NATO allies that also have them. It seems Putin is not that brave and a lot smarter than you.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:14 am

Oh, where's my popcorn? It's so exciting - to watch how the haberdashers decide the fate of the world on the forum!
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:28 am

Scorpius wrote:
Oh, where's my popcorn? It's so exciting - to watch how the haberdashers decide the fate of the world on the forum!

Given up, have you? :D
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:37 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Oh, where's my popcorn? It's so exciting - to watch how the haberdashers decide the fate of the world on the forum!

Given up, have you? :D

No, just to show how stupid your statements about Russia, you need to write a lot, and it's not too convenient - because the meaning of the written is quite crooked displayed in Google translate.

Russia does not need to refute anything. You have forgotten the principles of law. Until it is proved that someone is guilty - he is not guilty. The evidence against Russia in the Skripal, MH17 and many accusations, not shown.
Thus, Russia does not need to refute anything, because it is obvious that all these accusations-it's just a dirty game in the media to create an image of the Russian enemy. We have already passed this - during the cold war, the same gossip spread about the USSR.

And we already know that the surest way to resist such actions of the West is to strengthen our defense and make the economy as Autonomous as possible.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:31 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Don't know why you say this or what kind of special powers you think you have because of this, but I think that goes for at least 50% fo the people here, yours truly included. 8-)


In this case I am disappointed in this "mine truly". I hoped they'd think more about what they read, and not redistribute and defend fakes here. Especially having a chance to get an idea of likelihood that something is a fake.


You captured my sentiments about you exactly. But let's agree to disagree.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:20 pm

Scorpius wrote:
No, just to show how stupid your statements about Russia, you need to write a lot, and it's not too convenient - because the meaning of the written is quite crooked displayed in Google translate.

I think I'm going to need Google translate for that sentence alone! :eek:

Scorpius wrote:
Russia does not need to refute anything. You have forgotten the principles of law. Until it is proved that someone is guilty - he is not guilty. The evidence against Russia in the Skripal, MH17 and many accusations, not shown.
Thus, Russia does not need to refute anything, because it is obvious that all these accusations-it's just a dirty game in the media to create an image of the Russian enemy. We have already passed this - during the cold war, the same gossip spread about the USSR.

And what court would that be? Even if it did go to court and Russia were to be found guilty, you, and your government would still deny, deny, deny. But you're right, Russia doesn't have to deny anything, but that can be read as an admission of guilt in itself. These agents travelled from Moscow on Russian passports, carried out a chemical attack on foreign soil, then returned to Moscow. Aren't you concerned that some country, or individuals, might be using "fake" Russian agents to carry out chemical attacks abroad?
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:55 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Very slowly, it would seem . . . The British traced those agents from their arrival to their departure, plus all their movements in between, building-up a pretty water-tight case and presenting it to Russia and the world. The ball is now in the Russians' court. All they have to do -- if they believe the agents were not Russian and not working for the GRU -- is to find out who they were and where they came from, and who exactly they were working for. Three simple tasks, you would think, for any competent intelligence service. The Brits can't help them there: they did fly from Moscow after all. And what other intelligence services are the Russians fingering in this case? They should be very keen to expose the culprits.

We look forward to your updates on the Russian investigations. :yes:


I wouldn’t call this case water-tight. In fact, it’s full of assumptions. British stated they are Russian citizens. Well - first assumption. What was their application like? Is it true or fake? Are their Russian passports even real, and not forged? Are these the only passports they had? It’s a perfectly fine idea for a shady dude to forge a Russian identity to do a dirty deed in Britain since a) British issue visas to Russians generally gladly and b) relationships between the countries aren’t great, and British consulate services probably won’t validate the passport given to them.

What’s known about their travels? All we know that they’ve flown out of SVO post-customs area and arrived back there 2 days later. What happened next? It’s easy to make second assumption - they cleared Russian customs and went on planning their next poisoning in London. But did they really have to? Not really - right? They might have as well had tickets on some other airline, out of SVO to some other country - in which case they just check in online, and go straight to their next gate, without having anything to do with Russian border controls. And all the “shady characters” know these things well, be assured. The second tickets could have even been issued onto a different passport, onto a different name.

How could I have thought of that? I have done (and may do in the future) such travels before. I’ve done trips on separate tickets from NYC to Europe. Once - on Norwegian to LGW, and then - on EasyJet onward. In that case I did not have to clear British passport controls, just transferred between the terminals in LGW. Other time I did a similar thing on LH via FRA.

Another assumption that’s easy to make - their visas have been issued in Russia. Well - a Russian citizen can apply for a British visa at any UK embassy or consulate.

So see? You bought the idea that the case is water tight, but in fact it leaves enough room for perfectly reasonable doubt that these individuals even have ever been to Russia, or have anything to do with it.

That can also explain Russian behavior - without detailed information on who they are, you can’t gain traction on investigation. And that needs to be covered by strong facts - much stronger than those presented by British.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:19 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
Very slowly, it would seem . . . The British traced those agents from their arrival to their departure, plus all their movements in between, building-up a pretty water-tight case and presenting it to Russia and the world. The ball is now in the Russians' court. All they have to do -- if they believe the agents were not Russian and not working for the GRU -- is to find out who they were and where they came from, and who exactly they were working for. Three simple tasks, you would think, for any competent intelligence service. The Brits can't help them there: they did fly from Moscow after all. And what other intelligence services are the Russians fingering in this case? They should be very keen to expose the culprits.

We look forward to your updates on the Russian investigations. :yes:


I wouldn’t call this case water-tight. In fact, it’s full of assumptions. British stated they are Russian citizens. Well - first assumption. What was their application like? Is it true or fake? Are their Russian passports even real, and not forged? Are these the only passports they had? It’s a perfectly fine idea for a shady dude to forge a Russian identity to do a dirty deed in Britain since a) British issue visas to Russians generally gladly and b) relationships between the countries aren’t great, and British consulate services probably won’t validate the passport given to them.

What’s known about their travels? All we know that they’ve flown out of SVO post-customs area and arrived back there 2 days later. What happened next? It’s easy to make second assumption - they cleared Russian customs and went on planning their next poisoning in London. But did they really have to? Not really - right? They might have as well had tickets on some other airline, out of SVO to some other country - in which case they just check in online, and go straight to their next gate, without having anything to do with Russian border controls. And all the “shady characters” know these things well, be assured. The second tickets could have even been issued onto a different passport, onto a different name.

How could I have thought of that? I have done (and may do in the future) such travels before. I’ve done trips on separate tickets from NYC to Europe. Once - on Norwegian to LGW, and then - on EasyJet onward. In that case I did not have to clear British passport controls, just transferred between the terminals in LGW. Other time I did a similar thing on LH via FRA.

Another assumption that’s easy to make - their visas have been issued in Russia. Well - a Russian citizen can apply for a British visa at any UK embassy or consulate.

So see? You bought the idea that the case is water tight, but in fact it leaves enough room for perfectly reasonable doubt that these individuals even have ever been to Russia, or have anything to do with it.

That can also explain Russian behavior - without detailed information on who they are, you can’t gain traction on investigation. And that needs to be covered by strong facts - much stronger than those presented by British.

To anyone looking at the case, the evidence is pretty convincing, unless evidence to the contrary is produced. You are asking questions. All those questions could be answered by the Russians, if they wanted to, but they obviously don't. I wonder why. Surely the GRU isn't that incompetent that they can't do the same forensics the British have done and come up with enough evidence of their own to debunk the case?
 
ChrisKen
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:27 pm

anrec80 wrote:
They might have as well had tickets on some other airline, out of SVO to some other country - in which case they just check in online, and go straight to their next gate, without having anything to do with Russian border controls..


All international to international transfers at SVO pass through Russian passport control (and re-clear security). Try again.
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:09 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
They might have as well had tickets on some other airline, out of SVO to some other country - in which case they just check in online, and go straight to their next gate, without having anything to do with Russian border controls..


All international to international transfers at SVO pass through Russian passport control (and re-clear security). Try again.


Even in that case - what passports to what names did they show to officials in SVO? For Russian authorities they are still “Flying Dutchmen”, who can only be identified by cooperation of British, Russian and probably European investigators. But British are refusing to share information - certainly an opportunity to wonder why. Perhaps all this is a little dirty game of secret services, including British, and they don’t want it to become too public?

Of course it would be interesting to see if Russians did analyze footage of passport control cameras around the times of mentioned SU flight arrivals/departures. But that’s if statements by British Foreign Office about the flight numbers are true of course.
 
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scbriml
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:21 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Even in that case - what passports to what names did they show to officials in SVO?


Why are you asking us? :confused:

That's a question any reasonably competent 3rd World country would be able to answer. So I'm sure Russia, with all its resources, is able to work out who the hell flies international on its national airline. Especially when a visa would be required. You seem less confident they have the ability.

anrec80 wrote:
But that’s if statements by British Foreign Office about the flight numbers are true of course.


Of course. Any other straws you want to clutch? :rotfl:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:03 am

Hmmmmm . . . The normally-assured Mr Putin looking slightly uncomfortable and suffering from a slight hearing problem when asked about the suspects:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45494627

So, we seem to be getting somewhere at last: they do appear to be Russian after all.
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:27 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Hmmmmm . . . The normally-assured Mr Putin looking slightly uncomfortable and suffering from a slight hearing problem when asked about the suspects:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45494627

So, we seem to be getting somewhere at last: they do appear to be Russian after all.


Agree - this is something. Well, let’s wait and see once these people hopefully show up on media.

Now for you Putin said it in a wrong way somehow. This might qualify for another “highly likely”.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
A3801000
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:59 pm

Putin says Russia has found the suspects in the Skripal poisoning case, but unfortunately they’ve both just fallen out of a window some time in the next few days.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:40 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Agree - this is something. Well, let’s wait and see once these people hopefully show up on media.

Well that's a quick turnaround! Just two posts ago you said:

anrec80 wrote:
So see? You bought the idea that the case is water tight, but in fact it leaves enough room for perfectly reasonable doubt that these individuals even have ever been to Russia, or have anything to do with it.

That can also explain Russian behavior - without detailed information on who they are, you can’t gain traction on investigation. And that needs to be covered by strong facts - much stronger than those presented by British.

Now your Dear Leader seems to believe otherwise.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:21 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Agree - this is something. Well, let’s wait and see once these people hopefully show up on media.

Well that's a quick turnaround! Just two posts ago you said:

anrec80 wrote:
So see? You bought the idea that the case is water tight, but in fact it leaves enough room for perfectly reasonable doubt that these individuals even have ever been to Russia, or have anything to do with it.

That can also explain Russian behavior - without detailed information on who they are, you can’t gain traction on investigation. And that needs to be covered by strong facts - much stronger than those presented by British.

Now your Dear Leader seems to believe otherwise.


Shifting ground as we see. But good to see that these people have been identified by the Russian government without the aid of anyone. And indeed let's see how this is going the be spun in the media.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:44 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Well that's a quick turnaround! Just two posts ago you said:

Now your Dear Leader seems to believe otherwise.


Where do you see turnaround? I never said that they aren’t Russians or can’t be Russians. All I’ve said was that information released by British as it is may or may not necessarily establish any ties of suspects to Russia.

They located them - great. Might as well have not. Without official request from Britain, they weren’t required to look for them even, regardless of all British screeching.
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Shifting ground as we see. But good to see that these people have been identified by the Russian government without the aid of anyone. And indeed let's see how this is going the be spun in the media.


Yes, now it’s more reasonable. For a few days though there have been screaming on this forum “why won’t Russia show anyone?”.

I even maintain naive wish that British investigators will want to come to Russia and talk to them. But not much hope.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:36 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Where do you see turnaround? I never said that they aren’t Russians or can’t be Russians. All I’ve said was that information released by British as it is may or may not necessarily establish any ties of suspects to Russia.

You didn't actually say they weren't, but you didn't seem to believe they were and did your best to point the finger elsewhere:

SIx days ago:
anrec80 wrote:
My thoughts - Mr. Skripal was having some secrets dealings with many Eastern European secret services. Those two might as well have been affiliated with any of those, and used their Russian passports and Aeroflot flight to cover up traces. I don’t see any reason for Russians to do anything with Mr. Skripal.

Five days ago:
anrec80 wrote:
I don’t think Russian military intelligence sends people all over the place. Especially in the middle of the day to begin with. I also think a) they should investigate “shady” activities of Mr. Skripal himself and b) After some time, the investigation has to show something simply, or close the case. They showed something.

and:
anrec80 wrote:
I can’t get rid of the sense that British police did not even bother check any possible shady deeds with some other Eastern Europeans. And - it’s been said before by Czech president that Czech services had this Novichok in their possession at some point in time.

Four days ago:
anrec80 wrote:
* Are fingerprints of the individuals collected by British authorities found in any Russian databases? In databases of any allied/neighboring countries perhaps? Any other biometrics, such as iris scan?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:49 pm

Interesting, Putin tries to make peace with Japan. Japan and Soviet Union / Russia officially are at war. The Soviet Union occupied four Japanese islands at the end of WWII. In 2004 Putin has already offered two of the islands to sign a peace agreement, but Japan declined then. Now the current Japanese government declined again: “there is absolutely no change to our country’s perspective of resolving the problem of rights over the Northern Territories before sealing a peace treaty,” Japanese Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga said in Tokyo on Wednesday.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... y-year-end

Let that be a lesson to Putin. Take land by force and the countries will never forget and continue to be disputed territory. Taken land by force isn't tolerated anymore.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
DGVT
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 12:27 am

Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:37 am

Dutchy wrote:
Interesting, Putin tries to make peace with Japan. Japan and Soviet Union / Russia officially are at war. The Soviet Union occupied four Japanese islands at the end of WWII. In 2004 Putin has already offered two of the islands to sign a peace agreement, but Japan declined then. Now the current Japanese government declined again: “there is absolutely no change to our country’s perspective of resolving the problem of rights over the Northern Territories before sealing a peace treaty,” Japanese Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga said in Tokyo on Wednesday.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... y-year-end

Let that be a lesson to Putin. Take land by force and the countries will never forget and continue to be disputed territory. Taken land by force isn't tolerated anymore.


This is much more about Abe not wanting to lose face. Imagine what his (far) right (historical revisionist) supporters would think.
When one considers current geopolitics in the region (China-Russia, NK) Putin seems to have the upper hand.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1972
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:16 am

Dutchy wrote:
Interesting, Putin tries to make peace with Japan. Japan and Soviet Union / Russia officially are at war. The Soviet Union occupied four Japanese islands at the end of WWII. In 2004 Putin has already offered two of the islands to sign a peace agreement, but Japan declined then. Now the current Japanese government declined again: “there is absolutely no change to our country’s perspective of resolving the problem of rights over the Northern Territories before sealing a peace treaty,” Japanese Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga said in Tokyo on Wednesday.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... y-year-end

Let that be a lesson to Putin. Take land by force and the countries will never forget and continue to be disputed territory. Taken land by force isn't tolerated anymore.


You are forgetting a thing - Japan is among those who lost in WW2, and there is no argument about this. When one goes to war and loses - territorial losses are a normal thing. In Europe after WW2 there was also territories re-buffing (today’s Kaliningrad, before German Koenigsberg is the most prominent example). There, everything is prescribed in agreements and is acknowledged by everyone. Nobody has ever challenged Kaliningrad’s status since. Russian hold on those island is a part of cease-fire agreement. Japan was agreeing to sign the peace treaty at some point, but backed out at some point later.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1972
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:18 am

DGVT wrote:
This is much more about Abe not wanting to lose face. Imagine what his (far) right (historical revisionist) supporters would think.
When one considers current geopolitics in the region (China-Russia, NK) Putin seems to have the upper hand.


In Japan today, the idea of not getting the islands is not popular. It has no chance to go through the parliament. Abe has to consider that. Together with that, Japanese firms do business in Russia, Russians want to sell stuff (including gas) to Japan, and they certainly need the treaty and the matters settled.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1972
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:23 am

Braybuddy wrote:
You didn't actually say they weren't, but you didn't seem to believe they were and did your best to point the finger elsewhere:


I was not pointing fingers anywhere. What I was saying is that information released by British in itself may not be sufficient to establish the identities of these individuals in all cases. They found them - great. Might as well have not. And certainly extremely unlikely to make grounds for a sound legal case. Too many gaps.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:53 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Interesting, Putin tries to make peace with Japan. Japan and Soviet Union / Russia officially are at war. The Soviet Union occupied four Japanese islands at the end of WWII. In 2004 Putin has already offered two of the islands to sign a peace agreement, but Japan declined then. Now the current Japanese government declined again: “there is absolutely no change to our country’s perspective of resolving the problem of rights over the Northern Territories before sealing a peace treaty,” Japanese Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga said in Tokyo on Wednesday.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... y-year-end

Let that be a lesson to Putin. Take land by force and the countries will never forget and continue to be disputed territory. Taken land by force isn't tolerated anymore.


You are forgetting a thing - Japan is among those who lost in WW2, and there is no argument about this. When one goes to war and loses - territorial losses are a normal thing. In Europe after WW2 there was also territories re-buffing (today’s Kaliningrad, before German Koenigsberg is the most prominent example). There, everything is prescribed in agreements and is acknowledged by everyone. Nobody has ever challenged Kaliningrad’s status since. Russian hold on those island is a part of cease-fire agreement. Japan was agreeing to sign the peace treaty at some point, but backed out at some point later.


So 19th century thinking.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:56 am

DGVT wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Interesting, Putin tries to make peace with Japan. Japan and Soviet Union / Russia officially are at war. The Soviet Union occupied four Japanese islands at the end of WWII. In 2004 Putin has already offered two of the islands to sign a peace agreement, but Japan declined then. Now the current Japanese government declined again: “there is absolutely no change to our country’s perspective of resolving the problem of rights over the Northern Territories before sealing a peace treaty,” Japanese Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga said in Tokyo on Wednesday.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... y-year-end

Let that be a lesson to Putin. Take land by force and the countries will never forget and continue to be disputed territory. Taken land by force isn't tolerated anymore.


This is much more about Abe not wanting to lose face. Imagine what his (far) right (historical revisionist) supporters would think.
When one considers current geopolitics in the region (China-Russia, NK) Putin seems to have the upper hand.


Not Abe, they didn't want it for the last 70 years.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:58 am

anrec80 wrote:
DGVT wrote:
This is much more about Abe not wanting to lose face. Imagine what his (far) right (historical revisionist) supporters would think.
When one considers current geopolitics in the region (China-Russia, NK) Putin seems to have the upper hand.


In Japan today, the idea of not getting the islands is not popular. It has no chance to go through the parliament. Abe has to consider that. Together with that, Japanese firms do business in Russia, Russians want to sell stuff (including gas) to Japan, and they certainly need the treaty and the matters settled.



Give back the four islands and you have the peace and Russia can sell it's gas, as long as that last.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:22 am

Dutchy wrote:
So 19th century thinking.


Possibly. Nonetheless - these are real circa-1945 agreements between the countries.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1972
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:41 am

Dutchy wrote:
Give back the four islands and you have the peace and Russia can sell it's gas, as long as that last.


Not as simple - there is more to this story here. Keep in mind, that these territories went to USSR (and hence to Russia) as the result of Yalta conference 1945, which de-facto established all the borders in Europe as well. All the world recognizes these territories as Russian, except Japan. Many countries in Europe changed their borders as the result of that. Regions that were fought over for centuries changed hands. If we start reviewing Japan borders, then what else will we want to review? Borders between France and Germany? Re-split Poland? Return Western Ukraine to Poland and Hungary (not that they aren't working on this, just extreme poverty and total ruin in those regions stops them from more active actions)? Do you want another war in Europe, this time everyone against everyone else?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:46 am

Apparently, Putin wanted to give two islands back in 2004. So you don't agree with Putin on this point.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:37 am

anrec80 wrote:
I was not pointing fingers anywhere. What I was saying is that information released by British in itself may not be sufficient to establish the identities of these individuals in all cases. They found them - great. Might as well have not. And certainly extremely unlikely to make grounds for a sound legal case. Too many gaps.

Oh yes you were! You were doing your best to muddy the waters and finger other eastern European secret services. Your Dear Leader has let you down. You stick up for him, and then, when he's finally cornered, he drops you in it.

So you now accept that Russians -- or at least agents operating out of Russia -- were responsible?
Last edited by Braybuddy on Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:40 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:37 am

Dutchy wrote:
Apparently, Putin wanted to give two islands back in 2004. So you don't agree with Putin on this point.

Oh, Dutchy, what are you trying to tell us? Now Putin gave the Japanese time until the end of the year and the issue of transfer of the Islands is not raised. This means that Japan's negotiating position has been seriously weakened since then.
In fact, Japan needs a peace Treaty more than Russia does. If Russia wanted to force the Japanese to sign a peace Treaty - we would have made a small landing in Osaka, for example-in full compliance with international law - we are at war, is not it?
Japan cannot give us something so special that we cannot have it without signing a peace Treaty. The only reason for us to sign it is the elimination of bureaucratic obstacles that hinder the development of our far Eastern region.

Also funny to see you, Dutchy, worried for the Japanese who lost the territory because of his support of the Nazis, and attempts to seize China, Korea, Vietnam and the far East of Russia.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:49 am

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Apparently, Putin wanted to give two islands back in 2004. So you don't agree with Putin on this point.

Oh, Dutchy, what are you trying to tell us? Now Putin gave the Japanese time until the end of the year and the issue of transfer of the Islands is not raised. This means that Japan's negotiating position has been seriously weakened since then.
In fact, Japan needs a peace Treaty more than Russia does. If Russia wanted to force the Japanese to sign a peace Treaty - we would have made a small landing in Osaka, for example-in full compliance with international law - we are at war, is not it?
Japan cannot give us something so special that we cannot have it without signing a peace Treaty. The only reason for us to sign it is the elimination of bureaucratic obstacles that hinder the development of our far Eastern region.

Also funny to see you, Dutchy, worried for the Japanese who lost the territory because of his support of the Nazis, and attempts to seize China, Korea, Vietnam and the far East of Russia.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

And yet it is Putin whom raised the issue not Abe, strange if Japan needs it more than Putin's Russia :scratchchin: .

So, you are fine not only threatening Lisboa (NATO), now you are also fine to threaten Japan (also protected by Japanese - American thready) in less than a heartbeat. Brrrrrrr. Not because Putin would actually do that - he is not stupid - but for the way you are thinking, very backward. Truly 19th century.

My prediction: not given back those islands --> issue not resolved. So meaningless dribble from Putin to say he gave Japan time to resolve it till years end. Quite amusing you frame it like that. Still thinking Russia is a world power whom could do something like that, but no just a regional one with a much smaller economy than Japan.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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scbriml
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:02 am

Looks like the GRU may have been busy again...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45505064
Mr Verzilov is married to Nadezhda Tolokonnikova, the Pussy Riot member who was sentenced in 2012 to two years in jail for a performance at a Moscow cathedral.

Ms Tolokonnikova tweeted: "Pyotr may have been poisoned. In the toxicology department in a very serious condition."


It's odd how many people who dare to speak out against Putin end up in prison or hospital, or just dead in bizarre "accidents" or shot right outside the Kremlin. :scratchchin:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:12 am

scbriml wrote:
Looks like the GRU may have been busy again...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45505064
Mr Verzilov is married to Nadezhda Tolokonnikova, the Pussy Riot member who was sentenced in 2012 to two years in jail for a performance at a Moscow cathedral.

Ms Tolokonnikova tweeted: "Pyotr may have been poisoned. In the toxicology department in a very serious condition."


It's odd how many people who dare to speak out against Putin end up in prison or hospital, or just dead in bizarre "accidents" or shot right outside the Kremlin. :scratchchin:

Just amazing how inefficiently operates GRU (disbanded in 2010). Oleg Skripal is alive. In your version of a participant "revolt pussies" - alive. Especially as GRU is a army investigation. Their task has always been to ensure the tracking of strategic objects of a potential enemy, including the positions of nuclear weapons. And here they are credited with some activity that is absolutely non-core for such services.
Moreover, poisoning is the least effective method of elimination. There are a lot of ways to eliminate a person - more simple and effective, as well as attracting less attention. You're making statements here at the level of bad TV shows.
 
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scbriml
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:20 am

Scorpius wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Looks like the GRU may have been busy again...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45505064
Mr Verzilov is married to Nadezhda Tolokonnikova, the Pussy Riot member who was sentenced in 2012 to two years in jail for a performance at a Moscow cathedral.

Ms Tolokonnikova tweeted: "Pyotr may have been poisoned. In the toxicology department in a very serious condition."


It's odd how many people who dare to speak out against Putin end up in prison or hospital, or just dead in bizarre "accidents" or shot right outside the Kremlin. :scratchchin:

Just amazing how inefficiently operates GRU (disbanded in 2010). Oleg Skripal is alive. In your version of a participant "revolt pussies" - alive. Especially as GRU is a army investigation. Their task has always been to ensure the tracking of strategic objects of a potential enemy, including the positions of nuclear weapons. And here they are credited with some activity that is absolutely non-core for such services.
Moreover, poisoning is the least effective method of elimination. There are a lot of ways to eliminate a person - more simple and effective, as well as attracting less attention. You're making statements here at the level of bad TV shows.


GRU, FSB makes little difference. Their success rate seems pretty high with just the occasional show of incompetence.

Keep up the valiant disinformation work, you must be due a promotion soon. :wave:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:20 am

Dutchy wrote:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

And yet it is Putin whom raised the issue not Abe, strange if Japan needs it more than Putin's Russia :scratchchin: .

So, you are fine not only threatening Lisboa (NATO), now you are also fine to threaten Japan (also protected by Japanese - American thready) in less than a heartbeat. Brrrrrrr. Not because Putin would actually do that - he is not stupid - but for the way you are thinking, very backward. Truly 19th century.

My prediction: not given back those islands --> issue not resolved. So meaningless dribble from Putin to say he gave Japan time to resolve it till years end. Quite amusing you frame it like that. Still thinking Russia is a world power whom could do something like that, but no just a regional one with a much smaller economy than Japan.


1. the abundance of smiles looks a little strange and inappropriate.

2. Putin has such a job - he is a politician, and he is obliged to raise political issues in negotiations with politicians from other countries. It would be strange if politicians at a political meeting talked, for example, only about fishing or a well-spent weekend, wouldn't it?

3. Russia already has the Islands. Japan has no Islands. Therefore, it is Japan, more need to negotiate, not Russia.

4. Shinzo Abe was the first to raise the issue of the peace Treaty:
Vladimir Putin: Mr Prime Minister! Dear colleagues!
Let me welcome you to Vladivostok. We remember your previous visit to Russia and are working on the plan that we made together during this visit.
Relations between our countries are developing steadily. And for the first time it has to do with the interaction of our military departments.
Cooperation in the humanitarian sphere is developing. We have launched an unprecedented major event-the cross-years of Russia in Japan and Japan in Russia.
Our trade is growing: last year, it has grown by another 20 percent in the first six months of this year. At the same time, supplies of Russian engineering products increased by 90 percent, and textiles – by 14 percent. These are good indicators.
Today we visited one of the enterprises with Russian-Japanese investments – Mazda plant. Not only is automobile production carried out, but, as we have seen, engines are assembled, which are one hundred percent exported.
We are very glad to see you. We are confident that today's meeting and the presence of your representative delegation, and there are more than 200 business representatives, will all benefit the development of our bilateral relations.

Shinzo Abe (retranslated): Mr President Putin!
I am happy to meet here in Vladivostok for the third year in a row.
In accordance with the agreement, our bilateral relations are developing firmly. Only three months have passed since our last meeting, but now our agreements, such as bilateral consultations between the foreign Ministry and the defence Ministry at the Ministerial level in the so-called "two plus two"format, are being implemented one after another. Also, "regular" visits to the graves of former residents of the Islands. Thus, we are developing our relations.
I am pleased to note that as a result of our joint participation with President Putin in the opening ceremony of the Russian-Japanese cross-years at the Bolshoi theatre in may, we were able to make a good start in the Japanese-Russian cross-years.
Japanese culture is also popular. As far as I know, the Kabuki theatre will perform in Moscow and St. Petersburg. This is of great benefit for strengthening mutual understanding between the peoples of the two countries. And we have a variety of activities.
I am glad that the national teams of the two countries played with great success in the world Cup. I would like to congratulate you on the success of this event.
Today I would like to hold a Frank exchange of views on bilateral problems, including economic issues, as well as the international challenges, so we will do a cooperation with Russia.
I would also like to talk carefully about our historic task – the issue of concluding a peace Treaty.

Link: http://www.kremlin.ru/events/president/ ... ipts/58510
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:01 am

Scorpius wrote:
1. the abundance of smiles looks a little strange and inappropriate.


And yet you are fine fine with mentioning an invasion of Japan and therefore triggering WWIII, that is the part which is inappropriate here.

I had tree option: laughing at it, shaking my head or become angry. So my best option was laughing at it, knowing how ridiculous and unthoughtfully that statement is.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:39 am

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
1. the abundance of smiles looks a little strange and inappropriate.


What is inappropriate here is that you are fine with mentioning an invasion of Japan and therefore triggering WWIII.

I had tree option: laughing at it, shaking my head or become angry. So my best option was laughing at it, knowing how ridiculous and unthoughtfully that statement is.


Hmm, I don't think the invasion of Japan is a reason for WWIII. Hmm, I don't think the invasion of Japan is a reason for WWIII. After all, Japan is already at war with Russia (legally). What will taxpayers in the US say, should they fight for a country that stubbornly refuses to stop the war with Russia?

That is, you do not deny that once again tried to misinform readers when they said that Putin allegedly first remembered the need for a peace Treaty?
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:40 am

Margarita Simonyan tweeted that an interview with people accused of involvement in the poisoning of Skripals will soon be published: https://twitter.com/M_Simonyan/status/1 ... 9739571202
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:08 am

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
1. the abundance of smiles looks a little strange and inappropriate.


What is inappropriate here is that you are fine with mentioning an invasion of Japan and therefore triggering WWIII.

I had tree option: laughing at it, shaking my head or become angry. So my best option was laughing at it, knowing how ridiculous and unthoughtfully that statement is.


Hmm, I don't think the invasion of Japan is a reason for WWIII. Hmm, I don't think the invasion of Japan is a reason for WWIII. After all, Japan is already at war with Russia (legally). What will taxpayers in the US say, should they fight for a country that stubbornly refuses to stop the war with Russia?


The fact you don't see anything morally wrong with these kinds of military moves against other countries and you actively defending them if Russia does this should be quite shocking to anyone, reading your opinions just makes me shake my head. Lucky you do not possess any power. Putin is enough of a problem for regional peace as it is.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:04 am

interview with Ruslan Bashirov & Alexander Petrov:
https://youtu.be/_V5oz8t1CDI
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