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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:32 pm

Tugger wrote:
Actually it is possible this is being done because 1.) It was done with out approval/clearance from Putin's chain of command. So he is leaving them to hang as an example to other operators. Or 2.) They were cleared but completely botched their task which was to be "invisible" and instead they left a bright, clear trail that could be and was found.

Tugg

Possibly. I have never seen Putin so tetchy, where the interviewer had to ask him three times if they were civilians
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45494627

This will probably go down as one of the worst botched hit-jobs in history. They left a trail directly from Moscow. They failed in their task, killing an innocent civilian in the process. They allowed themselves to be captured on CCTV all through the operation, making no attempt to disguise themselves whatsoever. Then they go on TV with a with a cock-and-bull story straight out of comedy central, killing-off their careers in the process.

It's interesting that none of the usual suspects -- the non-Russian Kremlin apologists on here -- are touching this story. I wonder why . . . :scratchchin:
 
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Lilienthal
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:07 pm

Interesting coincidence to see this post on top of the forum... I just finished watching the Oscar winning documentary "Icarus" about the Russian state sponsored doping program and can't recommend it enough. You can find it on Netflix. Here's the trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXoRdSTrR-4

From what was supposed to be a self-experiment on doping for a cycling race, the documentary changes course when one of the advisors, head of the Russian ant-doping-laboratory Grigory Rodchenkov, turns whistleblower and delivers hard evidence on a state-run doping program for Russian olympic athletes. It's like a spy thriller unfolding in real time. The way the Russian government handles the situation is as shocking as it is depressing.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:28 am

Meanwhile, back in Moscow, it's business as usual:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45538772

I would say there's a lot of arse-kicking betwen the Kremlin and the GRU (or whatever they call themselves these days!) at the moment. There is undoubtedly a major review of foreign operations going on, with a lot of finger-pointing and blame-shifting. No doubt heads will roll. They've been doing this for years and getting away with it, and this is the first time that they've actually been caught red-handed. :D
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:38 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
, and this is the first time that they've actually been caught red-handed. :D


Not the first time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning ... Litvinenko
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:04 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
, and this is the first time that they've actually been caught red-handed. :D


Not the first time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning ... Litvinenko

Of course. I was thinking more in the sense of the irrefutable evidence of the CCTV cameras.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:48 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
, and this is the first time that they've actually been caught red-handed. :D


Not the first time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning ... Litvinenko

Of course. I was thinking more in the sense of the irrefutable evidence of the CCTV cameras.


No matter how good the evidence is, some people are always willing to dismiss it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:02 pm

Dutchy wrote:
No matter how good the evidence is, some people are always willing to dismiss it.

I think they've given up . . . :D
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:52 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Meanwhile, back in Moscow, it's business as usual:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45538772

I would say there's a lot of arse-kicking betwen the Kremlin and the GRU (or whatever they call themselves these days!) at the moment. There is undoubtedly a major review of foreign operations going on, with a lot of finger-pointing and blame-shifting. No doubt heads will roll. They've been doing this for years and getting away with it, and this is the first time that they've actually been caught red-handed. :D


So wait a min - “something is going on” because of theses “Pussies”? Look - these ones are nobody, their business is just being visible to keep obtaining Western grants (out of your tax dollars), purposed for “democracy development”. One can’t become a leader to anybody and anything by having sex in a grocery store with a chicken leg.

If you want to waste your tax dollars on all those characters - feel free, by all means.
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:54 am

Dutchy wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Of course. I was thinking more in the sense of the irrefutable evidence of the CCTV cameras.


No matter how good the evidence is, some people are always willing to dismiss it.


If the evidence is so good - where’s the legal case? If the evidence was believed to be so good that it would stand a public trial in a Russian court - why not at least try? Or, perhaps, evidence is not so good?
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:16 am

SoJo wrote:
Just want to say this. As someone who lives in Salisbury, the first thing you see on leaving the station is the Spire.


That’s from standpoint of someone who lives in Salisbury. Now put yourself in the shoes of two average blokes, who are around 40. They haven’t been traveling much outside of their own home country. One of them barely speaks English, the other - none at all. They aren’t familiar with the area, likely don’t have any data service to use Google Maps (most budget travelers like them turn off the data roaming, expectedly).

You realize that this situation in itself is quite stressful for an average Joe, right? Do you think they will look up to find the spire? Will they be associating the spire with the cathedral even? They will probably be pre-occupied to determine where they are and how to get to that cathedral. Yes, from standpoint of a Salisbury local or even a British a failed attempt to find the cathedral looks weird and can seem suspicious. But for a tourist, for whom it’s reasonable to have a hard time finding something or estimating time it will take to get there, it’s reasonable.

When I first moved to NYC years back, I as well remember having very hard time for the first few weeks in estimating how long will it take me to get from point A to point B by subway, and even by taxi. E.g. what to expect from subway, traffic patterns, etc. ON a few occurrences I would go somewhere, but either hop on the wrong train, or the wrong direction, then realize I need to get back. So what now - I should have been in jail for something that happened right around the station where I turned back? Do I consider myself lucky that nobody brought any criminal case based on that, and that no judge found the case “proven beyond reasonable doubt”?
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:23 am

Dutchy wrote:
The mass fleeing of Syrians started when Putin rescued the Assad regime. So yeah, very grateful for Putin: all human suffering and all the refugees to neighboring countries and Europe. If nothing else, it has cost billions to Europeans and billions more in the coming years. And yet, Putin asked Merkel to help (=pay) for the rebuilt of Syria. Putin created the mess upon the mess, so Putin should pay for that.


In all your refugee mess Syrians are a minority. You get Afghans there, Pakistanis, large numbers of Africans. The problem with your migrant mess is elsewhere. Sperking of Syrians, they fled not from Assad or a “regime” of some kind, but from territories where they had their state institutions destroyed. And by trying to remove the “regime”, you are doing exactly that - destroying the statehood and their institutions first. This is why majority of these “fights for freedom” lead to disaster if “won by peaceful protesters”. And almost never bring any improvement.

Syrians from neighboring countries are fine coming back to parts of the country controlled by legitimate Assad’s government. Yes, it can be corrupt, rule of law may be weaker, but there is nothing else there for them. And there’s nobody to build anything better.
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:26 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Of course. I was thinking more in the sense of the irrefutable evidence of the CCTV cameras.


Then why not attempt to bring a legal case?
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:36 am

Braybuddy wrote:

If you knew anything about the world outside Russia you would know that your first, and easiest, option, would be to sue the media. These guys have had their photographs plastered across newspapers and TV news across the world.


“These guys” just published the press release by Scotland Yard. Can’t really bring the case forward. And - in any country it’s very hard to bring the case forward against major media. There’s what you think, what you want to think, and the reality with chances it provides.

Braybuddy wrote:
If a video were produced of these guys walking up to the Skripals' door, then taking out a bottle of "perfume" and spraying it on the handle, you would still be shouting "fake!" and "prove it!".


Now we are into “if” territory. All we have - are those 5 CCTV shots. Nothing else. Not even their fingerprints anywhere, including on that bottle. As I mentioned - the UK government had their fingerprints.

Braybuddy wrote:
Suppose I was eating my dinner and there was a dog in the room. Then I leave the room and come back several minutes later and find my plate empty, I would be entitled to believe that the dog had eaten my dinner. Your argument would be "You can't prove it!" "It could have been anyone!". As Sherlock Holmes once said "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." So you don't have to actually catch the person in the act to prove something, a concept which you don't seem to grasp at all.


Except that public street isn’t quite a dog in the room. There were countless other people. Yes, their trip wasn’t well-planned obviously, but that’s all that can be said. This is common among inexperienced travelers, and nothing in itself impossible. But Scotland Yard was under pressure to release at least something, and all they had is these two poor blokes.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:52 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
Of course. I was thinking more in the sense of the irrefutable evidence of the CCTV cameras.


No matter how good the evidence is, some people are always willing to dismiss it.


If the evidence is so good - where’s the legal case? If the evidence was believed to be so good that it would stand a public trial in a Russian court - why not at least try? Or, perhaps, evidence is not so good?


Let them travel to Europe. The Brits are ready to move forward. Russian court system isn't independent from the Putin regime, they have tried in the Litvinenko case. So perfectly understandable that they don't even bother and let the Putin regime have their little publicity for domestic use. But hey way not let them travel to the UK, if the evidence is so bad? No better publicity than being acquitted?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:57 am

anrec80 wrote:
SoJo wrote:
Just want to say this. As someone who lives in Salisbury, the first thing you see on leaving the station is the Spire.


That’s from standpoint of someone who lives in Salisbury. Now put yourself in the shoes of two average blokes, who are around 40. They haven’t been traveling much outside of their own home country. One of them barely speaks English, the other - none at all. They aren’t familiar with the area, likely don’t have any data service to use Google Maps (most budget travelers like them turn off the data roaming, expectedly).

You realize that this situation in itself is quite stressful for an average Joe, right? Do you think they will look up to find the spire? Will they be associating the spire with the cathedral even? They will probably be pre-occupied to determine where they are and how to get to that cathedral. Yes, from standpoint of a Salisbury local or even a British a failed attempt to find the cathedral looks weird and can seem suspicious. But for a tourist, for whom it’s reasonable to have a hard time finding something or estimating time it will take to get there, it’s reasonable.

When I first moved to NYC years back, I as well remember having very hard time for the first few weeks in estimating how long will it take me to get from point A to point B by subway, and even by taxi. E.g. what to expect from subway, traffic patterns, etc. ON a few occurrences I would go somewhere, but either hop on the wrong train, or the wrong direction, then realize I need to get back. So what now - I should have been in jail for something that happened right around the station where I turned back? Do I consider myself lucky that nobody brought any criminal case based on that, and that no judge found the case “proven beyond reasonable doubt”?


So your defense is that these two are complete idiots has should stay home :lol:

They are able to find the hotel, able to find the train station, able to find the correct train, but in your mind not being able to find this Cathedral............. yeah completely believable. :roll:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:01 am

anrec80 wrote:
If you want to waste your tax dollars on all those characters - feel free, by all means.

News to me that they get "Western grants", but if they do it certainly wouldn't be much, and I'd be delighted to give a miniscule amount of my tax euro to people who are exposing the corruption of the Putin regime.

anrec80 wrote:
If the evidence is so good - where’s the legal case? If the evidence was believed to be so good that it would stand a public trial in a Russian court - why not at least try? Or, perhaps, evidence is not so good?

Ah yes, Russia courts jailing their own agents for doing their job! What world do you live in?
https://www.business-anti-corruption.co ... es/russia/

anrec80 wrote:
Then why not attempt to bring a legal case?

See above.

anrec80 wrote:
“These guys” just published the press release by Scotland Yard. Can’t really bring the case forward. And - in any country it’s very hard to bring the case forward against major media. There’s what you think, what you want to think, and the reality with chances it provides.

What world do you live in? Well, the Russian one, obviously. The Western media are terrified of law suits, one of the most common ones being "defamation of character". But you have to be of good character to succeed. And telling the truth.

anrec80 wrote:
Now we are into “if” territory. All we have - are those 5 CCTV shots. Nothing else. Not even their fingerprints anywhere, including on that bottle. As I mentioned - the UK government had their fingerprints.

CCTV shots showing them in the vicinty of the Skripal's house when they were were supposed to be visiting Salisbury Cathedral. And if you're handling a bottle with a chemical agent, you are going to wear gloves (which one of them is holding in one image), wouldn't you?

anrec80 wrote:
Except that public street isn’t quite a dog in the room. There were countless other people. Yes, their trip wasn’t well-planned obviously, but that’s all that can be said. This is common among inexperienced travelers, and nothing in itself impossible. But Scotland Yard was under pressure to release at least something, and all they had is these two poor blokes.

How do you know there were "countless other people"! You need evidence!!! :D

anrec80 wrote:
SoJo wrote:
Just want to say this. As someone who lives in Salisbury, the first thing you see on leaving the station is the Spire.


That’s from standpoint of someone who lives in Salisbury. Now put yourself in the shoes of two average blokes, who are around 40. They haven’t been traveling much outside of their own home country. One of them barely speaks English, the other - none at all. They aren’t familiar with the area, likely don’t have any data service to use Google Maps (most budget travelers like them turn off the data roaming, expectedly).

You realize that this situation in itself is quite stressful for an average Joe, right? Do you think they will look up to find the spire? Will they be associating the spire with the cathedral even? They will probably be pre-occupied to determine where they are and how to get to that cathedral. Yes, from standpoint of a Salisbury local or even a British a failed attempt to find the cathedral looks weird and can seem suspicious. But for a tourist, for whom it’s reasonable to have a hard time finding something or estimating time it will take to get there, it’s reasonable.

When I first moved to NYC years back, I as well remember having very hard time for the first few weeks in estimating how long will it take me to get from point A to point B by subway, and even by taxi. E.g. what to expect from subway, traffic patterns, etc. ON a few occurrences I would go somewhere, but either hop on the wrong train, or the wrong direction, then realize I need to get back. So what now - I should have been in jail for something that happened right around the station where I turned back? Do I consider myself lucky that nobody brought any criminal case based on that, and that no judge found the case “proven beyond reasonable doubt”?

I stayed off Wilton Road in Salisbury last year. When you are walking in that direction you would quickly realise you were heading out of the city. You can check on Google Maps if you like, but this is what you'd see:
On leaving the station and turning left:
Image
To get to Wilton Road you need to turn left and walk under the bridge. Most people who didn't know where they were going would continue on straight. Why would you turn left, unless you were going somwhere specific?
Last edited by Braybuddy on Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:21 am, edited 5 times in total.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:18 am

Travelling up Wilton Road they would have walked along here:
Image
Not much of interest to tourists! Not even a bar or café. But yet they kept on walking, seemingly without maps.

Then they would have passed the Shell station, where they were captured on CCTV, not even looking confused or unsure of where they were goingImage

Yet they still kept on walking. I wonder why . . .
Last edited by Braybuddy on Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:25 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The mass fleeing of Syrians started when Putin rescued the Assad regime. So yeah, very grateful for Putin: all human suffering and all the refugees to neighboring countries and Europe. If nothing else, it has cost billions to Europeans and billions more in the coming years. And yet, Putin asked Merkel to help (=pay) for the rebuilt of Syria. Putin created the mess upon the mess, so Putin should pay for that.


In all your refugee mess Syrians are a minority. You get Afghans there, Pakistanis, large numbers of Africans. The problem with your migrant mess is elsewhere. Sperking of Syrians, they fled not from Assad or a “regime” of some kind, but from territories where they had their state institutions destroyed. And by trying to remove the “regime”, you are doing exactly that - destroying the statehood and their institutions first. This is why majority of these “fights for freedom” lead to disaster if “won by peaceful protesters”. And almost never bring any improvement.

Syrians from neighboring countries are fine coming back to parts of the country controlled by legitimate Assad’s government. Yes, it can be corrupt, rule of law may be weaker, but there is nothing else there for them. And there’s nobody to build anything better.


Simply not true. 650.000 refugees in 2017, about 100.000 Syrians. By far the largest group. Source: Eurostat.

They fled from the war in which the Ruski's help to get their Assad regime get into power with undiscriminating bombings and other terror tactics.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:32 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Travelling up Wilton Road they would have walked along here:
Image
Not much of interest to tourists! Not even a bar or café. But yet they kept on walking, seemingly without maps.

Then they would have passed the Shell station, where they were captured on CCTV, not even looking confused or unsure of where they were goingImage

Yet they still kept on walking. I wonder why . . .

The more pertinent question is: why can't they walk there?

For example, I always walk around the city, which came with a tour - I can walk about 20 kilometers a day. I am sure that at the same time I will be recorded by many cameras in completely different parts of the city.

However, let's you tell me why you "forgot" that further along Wilton road there is still Old Church St Mary's, St Mary and St Nicholas' Church, or st. Johns priory Chapel, for example?
https://goo.gl/maps/GLpkDpAvEkx

Why do you think that they could not be interested in including these attractions?
And yes, maybe it makes sense to check out everyone who passed by the Skripal house that day, not two random tourists?
The fact that they were passing by that day does not mean that they are involved in poisoning.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:11 am

Scorpius wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
Travelling up Wilton Road they would have walked along here:
Image
Not much of interest to tourists! Not even a bar or café. But yet they kept on walking, seemingly without maps.

Then they would have passed the Shell station, where they were captured on CCTV, not even looking confused or unsure of where they were goingImage

Yet they still kept on walking. I wonder why . . .

The more pertinent question is: why can't they walk there?

For example, I always walk around the city, which came with a tour - I can walk about 20 kilometers a day. I am sure that at the same time I will be recorded by many cameras in completely different parts of the city.

However, let's you tell me why you "forgot" that further along Wilton road there is still Old Church St Mary's, St Mary and St Nicholas' Church, or st. Johns priory Chapel, for example?
https://goo.gl/maps/GLpkDpAvEkx

Why do you think that they could not be interested in including these attractions?
And yes, maybe it makes sense to check out everyone who passed by the Skripal house that day, not two random tourists?
The fact that they were passing by that day does not mean that they are involved in poisoning.


Yup, we can always on Scorpius and anrec80 to defend Russia even though it takes to the most unlikely scenario. Here Scorpius delved into all the things to be seen in this town, completely bypassing the fact: they were in London! And at their own admission, they wanted to go to the Cathedral and apparently could not read a map, but somehow can find their hotel in London and can find their way around the public transport system. So in order to make this scenario work: they need to be Church addicts, bypassing all beautiful churches in London, bypassing all beautiful musea in London, bypassing the nightlife in London (remember first-time visitors to England) and these Russians are complete idiots.

On the other hand we have the scenario: these are two Russian agents send out to kill a Russian defector. Scouting out his place for an hour. Coming the next day for the kill and get on a plane back to Russia. I know which story is the believable one. :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:07 pm

Scorpius wrote:
The more pertinent question is: why can't they walk there?

For example, I always walk around the city, which came with a tour - I can walk about 20 kilometers a day. I am sure that at the same time I will be recorded by many cameras in completely different parts of the city.

However, let's you tell me why you "forgot" that further along Wilton road there is still Old Church St Mary's, St Mary and St Nicholas' Church, or st. Johns priory Chapel, for example?
https://goo.gl/maps/GLpkDpAvEkx

Why do you think that they could not be interested in including these attractions?
And yes, maybe it makes sense to check out everyone who passed by the Skripal house that day, not two random tourists?
The fact that they were passing by that day does not mean that they are involved in poisoning.

Oh Scorpius, where do I begin? They spent TWO HOURS in Salisbury that day. Subtracting all the walking, they would have had a maximum of 20 minutes to visit the cathedral, according to CCTV footage. That would have given them barely enough time to see the cathedral itself, but they certainly wouldn't have had time to climb the spire, which, remember, they travelled all the way from Moscow to see! So they certainly wouldn't have had time to visit any other churches -- or anywhere else at all. Why would two Russian tourists, who are interested in gothic architecture -- in particular Salisbury Cathedral which they had heard so much about -- travel all the way from Moscow to London, then take two 180-mile round trips, just to spend less than 20 minutes there? On the first trip they spent 2 hours and 15 minutes in Salisbury, but they had to turn back becuase of snow. It took them all that time to decide that? What Russians would not be able to handle a bit of slush in 10 degrees, and take over an hour to decide they weren't able to handle it?

But I see what you're doing here, it's Russian trolling, plain and simple. Just putting out any old rubbish, hoping to muddy the waters. You might get away with that in Russia, but you're on an international forum here, where the members are mostly of above-average intelligence (as forums go!) and aren't going to believe your flights of fancy. What you are saying here is "The reason for their behaviour is down to anything -- as long as it has absolutely nothing to do with the Skripals! "

But keep digging, it's very entertaining . . . :lol:

Dutchy wrote:
On the other hand we have the scenario: these are two Russian agents send out to kill a Russian defector. Scouting out his place for an hour. Coming the next day for the kill and get on a plane back to Russia.:

Often the answers to questions are the simplest -- and most obvious -- ones. Something which our Russian friends find impossible to grasp.
 
SoJo
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:10 pm

In the third picture that Braybuddy posted showing the garage. If you come back a short way there is a brick wall on the right. After that, there's the hedge. If you look you will see an opening. That is a short cut into the estate where the Skirpals lived. Wonder if they knew that. I used it many times as I live about quarter of a mile from their house.
RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
 
THS214
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:30 pm

anrec80 wrote:
SoJo wrote:
Just want to say this. As someone who lives in Salisbury, the first thing you see on leaving the station is the Spire.


anrec80 wrote:
That’s from standpoint of someone who lives in Salisbury. Now put yourself in the shoes of two average blokes, who are around 40. They haven’t been traveling much outside of their own home country. One of them barely speaks English, the other - none at all. They aren’t familiar with the area, likely don’t have any data service to use Google Maps (most budget travelers like them turn off the data roaming, expectedly).

You realize that this situation in itself is quite stressful for an average Joe, right? Do you think they will look up to find the spire? Will they be associating the spire with the cathedral even? They will probably be pre-occupied to determine where they are and how to get to that cathedral. Yes, from standpoint of a Salisbury local or even a British a failed attempt to find the cathedral looks weird and can seem suspicious. But for a tourist, for whom it’s reasonable to have a hard time finding something or estimating time it will take to get there, it’s reasonable.


I told earlier (on page 8) that you will answer like this. Thanks for proving me right!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:37 pm

where the members are mostly of above-average intelligence (as forums go!)

Oh, quite a bit of racism, isn't it, Braybuddy? I remember, Joseph Goebbels loved to repeat that the Russians are genetically inferior. You decided to follow in the footsteps of your idol?

Often the answers to questions are the simplest -- and most obvious -- ones. Something which our Russian friends find impossible to grasp.

Your Affairs are bad - such "proofs" can't be accepted by any normal court in the world.


They spent TWO HOURS in Salisbury that day. Subtracting all the walking, they would have had a maximum of 20 minutes to visit the cathedral, according to CCTV footage. That would have given them barely enough time to see the cathedral itself, but they certainly wouldn't have had time to climb the spire, which, remember, they travelled all the way from Moscow to see! So they certainly wouldn't have had time to visit any other churches -- or anywhere else at all. Why would two Russian tourists, who are interested in gothic architecture -- in particular Salisbury Cathedral which they had heard so much about -- travel all the way from Moscow to London, then take two 180-mile round trips, just to spend less than 20 minutes there? On the first trip they spent 2 hours and 15 minutes in Salisbury, but they had to turn back becuase of snow. It took them all that time to decide that? What Russians would not be able to handle a bit of slush in 10 degrees, and take over an hour to decide they weren't able to handle it?

Hiking without a pre-compiled program looks like this-I can judge by myself, not more than a couple of weeks ago I went 3 hours one way to the military forum "Army-2018", and also did not get to the most interesting part for me - the air show.
Your fabrications look absolutely ridiculous-people can go wherever they want, and where someone can look at the exhibits for two hours, someone will run for ten minutes.

But I see what you're doing here, it's Russian trolling, plain and simple.

Oh, now you must provide evidence to support your words, or they are slander. Don't you?
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:58 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Oh, quite a bit of racism, isn't it, Braybuddy? I remember, Joseph Goebbels loved to repeat that the Russians are genetically inferior. You decided to follow in the footsteps of your idol?

You need to look up the meaning of the word "racism", and it's a bit of leap connecting me to Joeseph Goebbels! I don't quite get your logic here, so please elaborate.

Scorpius wrote:
Your Affairs are bad - such "proofs" can't be accepted by any normal court in the world.

"Beyond reasonable doubt" is a concept accepted in real democracies throughout the world.

Scorpius wrote:
Hiking without a pre-compiled program looks like this-I can judge by myself, not more than a couple of weeks ago I went 3 hours one way to the military forum "Army-2018", and also did not get to the most interesting part for me - the air show.
Your fabrications look absolutely ridiculous-people can go wherever they want, and where someone can look at the exhibits for two hours, someone will run for ten minutes.

I'm going by the time-stamp on the agents' arrival in Salisbury, and their departure -- which the agents haven't disputed -- so no fabrications there. Why would people fly over 2,500 km to see a cathedral, spire and clock that they had learnt about from Wikipedia -- sorry, plenty of people in Russia -- just to spend less than twenty minutes there? Most tourists take selfies at locations they visit, particularly ones they have a special interest in, yet these two "tourists" hadn't one picture to show!

Oh, now you must provide evidence to support your words, or they are slander. Don't you?

I've cited plenty of evidence, which you ignore in favour of wild assumptions and fabrications. As for the last part of that post, I'll refer you to the first quote from you in this post. Need I say more?
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:50 pm

I've cited plenty of evidence, which you ignore in favour of wild assumptions and fabrications. As for the last part of that post, I'll refer you to the first quote from you in this post. Need I say more?


I'm talking about your statement.:
But I see what you're doing here, it's Russian trolling, plain and simple.


So you're trying to charge me with trolling based on the fact that my point of view is different from yours. Next, you begin to say that supposedly this forum are more intelligent people (because it is international), while "
what our Russian friends find impossible to understand
".
So you're kind of trying to emphasize the inferiority of the Russians, aren't you?
And now you can go and study the history of Nazi propaganda about the Slavic peoples and Russians in particular. And then compare with the statements of modern Western politicians, and with your own. You're trying to claim that the Russians are inferior to you and the Europeans. That's racism, Braybuddy.


"Beyond reasonable doubt" is a concept accepted in real democracies throughout the world.

At the moment, there are facts: two tourists were in Salisbury on 3 and 4 March 2018.

And there are conjectures that are not proved by anything:

1. That tourists are allegedly agents of GRU
2. That tourists were carrying a dangerous toxic substance. At the same time, they were not injured without means of protection.
3. What these tourists on Sunday afternoon(!), have been able imperceptibly(!) handle door handle (thus they are not noticed by the inhabitants of the seven neighboring houses) toxic substances, not having suffered from its effects. And they were not noticed at the time of the house Oleg Skripal and his daughter Julia.

Proof of such points nobody imagined all that is - is the statement, "Highly likely".
Exactly the same way you can suspect the neighbors of Oleg Skripal or even anyone who has ever been near his house. Well, or at least March 4 was seen nearby.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:56 pm

Scorpius wrote:
I'm talking about your statement.:
But I see what you're doing here, it's Russian trolling, plain and simple.


So you're trying to charge me with trolling based on the fact that my point of view is different from yours. Next, you begin to say that supposedly this forum are more intelligent people (because it is international), while "
what our Russian friends find impossible to understand

So you're kind of trying to emphasize the inferiority of the Russians, aren't you?
And now you can go and study the history of Nazi propaganda about the Slavic peoples and Russians in particular. And then compare with the statements of modern Western politicians, and with your own. You're trying to claim that the Russians are inferior to you and the Europeans. That's racism, Braybuddy.

I'm accusing you of trolling because you are throwing as much disinformation into the debate as is possible, which is what trolls do, instead of looking at the evidence and making realistic assumptions. You are prepared to believe ANYTHING as long as it has nothing to do with GRU. And by "Russian friends" I am referring to yourself and Anrec specifically, not Russians in general, though I do believe a large proportion of Russians seem to believe RT over other news outlets. There are, however, a lot of Russians who don't believe state propaganda. So I am not lumping all Russians together here.

Scorpius wrote:
At the moment, there are facts: two tourists were in Salisbury on 3 and 4 March 2018.

They are not facts. There were two Russians in Salisbury on 3 and 4 March. They did not behave like normal tourists and were captured on CCTV in the vicinity of a former Russian spy whom the Russians had previously jailed for high treason. On 4 March the former spy and his daughter were found slumped on a bench in the city, having being poisoned by the chemical agent Novichok.

Scorpius wrote:
And there are conjectures that are not proved by anything:

1. That tourists are allegedly agents of GRU
2. That tourists were carrying a dangerous toxic substance. At the same time, they were not injured without means of protection.
3. What these tourists on Sunday afternoon(!), have been able imperceptibly(!) handle door handle (thus they are not noticed by the inhabitants of the seven neighboring houses) toxic substances, not having suffered from its effects. And they were not noticed at the time of the house Oleg Skripal and his daughter Julia.

Proof of such points nobody imagined all that is - is the statement, "Highly likely".
Exactly the same way you can suspect the neighbors of Oleg Skripal or even anyone who has ever been near his house. Well, or at least March 4 was seen nearby.

No proof that they were GRU agents, but their behaviour makes it more likely than not. One of the agents was captured on CCTV with a glove in his hand. Why? The temperatures in Salisbury on that day hovered around 10 degrees centigrade. Positively balmy weather for Russians, I would have thought. Maybe he needed the gloves for something else? If they were to spray poison on a door handle they would have done it in seconds. It was in a quiet residential area, and if they were any good at their job they would have made sure nobody was watching when carrying out the operation, as any properly-trained agent would do.
 
THS214
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:17 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
I'm talking about your statement.:
But I see what you're doing here, it's Russian trolling, plain and simple.


No proof that they were GRU agents, but their behaviour makes it more likely than not. One of the agents was captured on CCTV with a glove in his hand. Why? The temperatures in Salisbury on that day hovered around 10 degrees centigrade. Positively balmy weather for Russians, I would have thought. Maybe he needed the gloves for something else? If they were to spray poison on a door handle they would have done it in seconds. It was in a quiet residential area, and if they were any good at their job they would have made sure nobody was watching when carrying out the operation, as any properly-trained agent would do.


Isn't the picture with black gloves from the day before? Can you point a picture with gloves on the day of the poisoning? Secondly 10 degrees centigrade is normal for many people not to have gloves especially in the early spring.
 
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Tugger
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:23 pm

This link has good info on the passport questions with these two.
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and- ... -services/

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
tu204
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Let them travel to Europe. The Brits are ready to move forward. Russian court system isn't independent from the Putin regime, they have tried in the Litvinenko case. So perfectly understandable that they don't even bother and let the Putin regime have their little publicity for domestic use. But hey way not let them travel to the UK, if the evidence is so bad? No better publicity than being acquitted?


I don't see anyone stopping them from traveling to the UK. But they cannot be forced to travel to the UK as it is a direct violation of the Constitution. Article 61.

To demand their forcible travel to the UK is just hot air for internal UK consumption as there is no way that is going to happen.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:27 pm

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Let them travel to Europe. The Brits are ready to move forward. Russian court system isn't independent from the Putin regime, they have tried in the Litvinenko case. So perfectly understandable that they don't even bother and let the Putin regime have their little publicity for domestic use. But hey way not let them travel to the UK, if the evidence is so bad? No better publicity than being acquitted?


I don't see anyone stopping them from traveling to the UK. But they cannot be forced to travel to the UK as it is a direct violation of the Constitution. Article 61.

To demand their forcible travel to the UK is just hot air for internal UK consumption as there is no way that is going to happen.


Did you even follow this story? The Brits aren't pursuing this, because it will not happen, they explicitly said so. Nobody said they will forcefully travel to the UK, but they are welcome to come their voluntarily or to some EU country, then they will be forced to go to the UK afterall.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
Posts: 1996
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Simply not true. 650.000 refugees in 2017, about 100.000 Syrians. By far the largest group. Source: Eurostat.

They fled from the war in which the Ruski's help to get their Assad regime get into power with undiscriminating bombings and other terror tactics.


This is exactly what I am saying. Where are the remaining 550K from? And what and whom are those fleeing from? Are those fleeing also because “Ruski”s are doing something there?
 
anrec80
Posts: 1996
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:27 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Did you even follow this story? The Brits aren't pursuing this, because it will not happen, they explicitly said so. Nobody said they will forcefully travel to the UK, but they are welcome to come their voluntarily or to some EU country, then they will be forced to go to the UK afterall.


What will not happen? Extradition will not happen, they finally got this through their head. Anything else though does have a chance. They are free individuals and may travel to Europe/UK if they decide that they want to (in this case - spend a year or two in British jail), nobody will prohibit them to do so. British investigators are also welcome to request access to them from Russians to question them. But for some reason they did not even bother trying, despite having them as suspects for like 4 months now. Could it be perhaps they do have a confidence that these two have nothing to do with it?
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:29 pm

THS214 wrote:
Isn't the picture with black gloves from the day before? Can you point a picture with gloves on the day of the poisoning? Secondly 10 degrees centigrade is normal for many people not to have gloves especially in the early spring.


This is not the argument. In +10C, any choice (to use gloves or not to use gloves) is perfectly reasonable. As well as taking them off, putting them on.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:41 pm

THS214 wrote:
Isn't the picture with black gloves from the day before? Can you point a picture with gloves on the day of the poisoning? Secondly 10 degrees centigrade is normal for many people not to have gloves especially in the early spring.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Tugger wrote:
This link has good info on the passport questions with these two.
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and- ... -services/

Tugg

Fascinating article. I wonder how they got all that information? If true it's pretty damning and blows the two agents' cover completely. This is the most fascinating insight into the world of secret agents and spooks for years! I'm sure there's much more to follow . . . :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy:
 
anrec80
Posts: 1996
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:51 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
News to me that they get "Western grants", but if they do it certainly wouldn't be much, and I'd be delighted to give a miniscule amount of my tax euro to people who are exposing the corruption of the Putin regime.


Well. The amounts aren’t minuscule at all. Vicky Nuland stated - Ukrainian maidan received USD 5 billion (!) from USA only. Then there was EU funding of course. Organizations in Russia used to receive about $1 billion per year from Germany alone earlier this decade (before they passed “foreign agent” law requiring recipient organizations to disclose funding sources). Then there are USA or course, other EU countries.

This “grant slicing” is quite big and dirty business as you can see. And Pussy Riot aren’t exactly corruption exposers or investigators of some sort. Having sex in public (with people and food items) and exposing corruption are totally different areas.

Braybuddy wrote:
Ah yes, Russia courts jailing their own agents for doing their job! What world do you live in?
https://www.business-anti-corruption.co ... es/russia/


And who was jailed the last and for what?

Well - try to prove it. Request and demand public hearing, with all your evidence. If Russians start denying such requests - then you have grounds for your point of view. But not before that.

Braybuddy wrote:
What world do you live in? Well, the Russian one, obviously. The Western media are terrified of law suits, one of the most common ones being "defamation of character". But you have to be of good character to succeed. And telling the truth.

Well it’s too early to say anything. Russian Foreign Affairs dept may as well get great international lawyers to help them, but it will take considerable amount of time to unfold.

Braybuddy wrote:
CCTV shots showing them in the vicinty of the Skripal's house when they were were supposed to be visiting Salisbury Cathedral. And if you're handling a bottle with a chemical agent, you are going to wear gloves (which one of them is holding in one image), wouldn't you?

Then where are the gloves? Report didn’t mention anything about the gloves or traces of glove material on the bottle either. I never handled such substances, hence can’t attest to need to use gloves. But experienced chemists do not always use them though. These gloves then will have quite a bit of this Novichok or its precursors on them or in them, and quite a few hundred people would get poisoned. Let alone the bottle was found in Amesbury, where our suspects have never been.

Braybuddy wrote:
How do you know there were "countless other people"! You need evidence!!! :D


The report did not mention that there were no other people either. And if there weren’t indeed - this would have been the first thing they would have mentioned.

Braybuddy wrote:
I stayed off Wilton Road in Salisbury last year. When you are walking in that direction you would quickly realise you were heading out of the city. You can check on Google Maps if you like, but this is what you'd see:
On leaving the station and turning left:
Image
To get to Wilton Road you need to turn left and walk under the bridge. Most people who didn't know where they were going would continue on straight. Why would you turn left, unless you were going somwhere specific?


I don’t know that, I have never been to Salisbury. But - a) I am bad at directions and might well do something irrational and b) an inexperienced tourist might, not knowing what they are doing. You certainly don’t look for any rationale in actions of someone who doesn’t know where they are and what they are doing. And not necessarily have Google Maps on their mobile (if they have even them).
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:53 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Fascinating article. I wonder how they got all that information? If true it's pretty damning and blows the two agents' cover completely. This is the most fascinating insight into the world of secret agents and spooks for years! I'm sure there's much more to follow . . . :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy:


Ahh - another Bellingcat. Fascinating indeed. Waiting for this to be disproved.
 
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Tugger
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:05 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Ahh - another Bellingcat. Fascinating indeed. Waiting for this to be disproved.

You'll be waiting awhile, this is using commercially available data, used for inter-nation clearing of foreign citizens.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:07 am

Tugger wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Ahh - another Bellingcat. Fascinating indeed. Waiting for this to be disproved.

You'll be waiting awhile, this is using commercially available data, used for inter-nation clearing of foreign citizens.

Tugg


Not quite infinitely though. Yet yesterday Gen. Konashenkov took apart their MH-17 videos and showed how they were made not even from 2 separate ones, but from 3. So - gotta find some more reputable source.
 
THS214
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:42 am

anrec80 wrote:
THS214 wrote:
Isn't the picture with black gloves from the day before? Can you point a picture with gloves on the day of the poisoning? Secondly 10 degrees centigrade is normal for many people not to have gloves especially in the early spring.


This is not the argument. In +10C, any choice (to use gloves or not to use gloves) is perfectly reasonable. As well as taking them off, putting them on.


You are right. That's what I meant but miswrote.
 
THS214
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:55 am

Braybuddy wrote:
THS214 wrote:
Isn't the picture with black gloves from the day before? Can you point a picture with gloves on the day of the poisoning? Secondly 10 degrees centigrade is normal for many people not to have gloves especially in the early spring.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:



What's so funny in an honest question? I believe the UK version but cannot verify what you wrote therefore the question. Of course they could have carried a lot of things in the backpack so no CCTV needed but I think that your reference was a CCTV picture taken a day before the attack. I haven't seen CCTV picture of gloves during the day of the attack therefore the question. Not that it matters in a big picture.
 
THS214
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:03 am

THS214 wrote:

Secondly 10 degrees centigrade is normal for many people not to have gloves especially in the early spring.


Sorry got lost in translation (or thinking) :)

What I meant is that 10 degrees is a weather were some use gloves some don't. It doesn't mean anything one way or another.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:14 am

anrec80 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Ahh - another Bellingcat. Fascinating indeed. Waiting for this to be disproved.

You'll be waiting awhile, this is using commercially available data, used for inter-nation clearing of foreign citizens.

Tugg


Not quite infinitely though. Yet yesterday Gen. Konashenkov took apart their MH-17 videos and showed how they were made not even from 2 separate ones, but from 3. So - gotta find some more reputable source.


The Russian military isn't a reputable source.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:14 am

anrec80 wrote:
Well. The amounts aren’t minuscule at all. Vicky Nuland stated - Ukrainian maidan received USD 5 billion (!) from USA only. Then there was EU funding of course. Organizations in Russia used to receive about $1 billion per year from Germany alone earlier this decade (before they passed “foreign agent” law requiring recipient organizations to disclose funding sources). Then there are USA or course, other EU countries.

This “grant slicing” is quite big and dirty business as you can see. And Pussy Riot aren’t exactly corruption exposers or investigators of some sort. Having sex in public (with people and food items) and exposing corruption are totally different areas.

What's the Maidan and other organisations in Russia got to do with this? You were talking about Pussy Riot, remember? The other day you wrote:

anrec80 wrote:
So wait a min - “something is going on” because of theses “Pussies”? Look - these ones are nobody, their business is just being visible to keep obtaining Western grants (out of your tax dollars), purposed for “democracy development”. One can’t become a leader to anybody and anything by having sex in a grocery store with a chicken leg.

If you want to waste your tax dollars on all those characters - feel free, by all means.

Stop trying to change the subject!

anrec80 wrote:
And who was jailed the last and for what?

My point exactly. I was being sarcastic . . . :sarcastic:

anrec80 wrote:
Well it’s too early to say anything. Russian Foreign Affairs dept may as well get great international lawyers to help them, but it will take considerable amount of time to unfold.

Can't wait! But they might think twice about attempting to defend an illegal and botched job. They've only made it worse by parading the two hapless agents on TV.

anrec80 wrote:
Then where are the gloves? Report didn’t mention anything about the gloves or traces of glove material on the bottle either. I never handled such substances, hence can’t attest to need to use gloves. But experienced chemists do not always use them though. These gloves then will have quite a bit of this Novichok or its precursors on them or in them, and quite a few hundred people would get poisoned. Let alone the bottle was found in Amesbury, where our suspects have never been.

You really should remember what you write! You wanted to know why there were no fingerprints:
anrec80 wrote:
Now we are into “if” territory. All we have - are those 5 CCTV shots. Nothing else. Not even their fingerprints anywhere, including on that bottle. As I mentioned - the UK government had their fingerprints.


Image

anrec80 wrote:
The report did not mention that there were no other people either. And if there weren’t indeed - this would have been the first thing they would have mentioned.

Are you for real? Why would the report mention that there were no people around, when they had no way of knowing, and why do you think this would be the first thing they would mention?

anrec80 wrote:
I don’t know that, I have never been to Salisbury. But - a) I am bad at directions and might well do something irrational and b) an inexperienced tourist might, not knowing what they are doing. You certainly don’t look for any rationale in actions of someone who doesn’t know where they are and what they are doing. And not necessarily have Google Maps on their mobile (if they have even them).

Okay, we'll assume for argument that they weren't using Google maps. You portray them as innocent tourists, not knowing where they were going. Why would you walk aimlessly around a city you don't know, looking for somewhere, without even a map? I travel to new cities regularly and have to find hotels, places of interest, etc. I don't ususally use my phone, but rely on instinct, maps, or asking for directions. Even if I don't speak the language it's not difficult to ask locals for basic directions. You memorise the names of places you are looking for, such as "Centre", "railway station" or "cathedral", and people will respond to such simple requests. Remember these guys had a particular fascination with Salisbury Cathdral, its spire and clock, so they surely would have known the words for these in English? The Russian for "cathedral" even sounds similar, so anyone would have easily known where they were looking for, given it's the city's main attraction. So any passer by could have pointed them easily in the direction of the cathedral, which they somehow managed to miss when leaving the station. Yet they walked half an hour away, along a quiet suburban road, away from the city centre! You really are doing your fellow Russians a disservice by portraying them as completly stupid. Yet they have their own "fitness business". I wonder how they manage to run that?
Last edited by Braybuddy on Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Zeppi
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:01 am

Look, I don't engage in conversation with trolls out of principle, but this is absolutetely golden:

Scorpius wrote:
So you're kind of trying to emphasize the inferiority of the Russians, aren't you?


No, he's not. At all. It's the likes of you as well as your beloved Putin government that make it look to the rest of the world like Russia is still deeply entangled in a huge inferiority complex since the downfall of the USSR. Huge war games, state run doping programs, internet troll factories, illegal annexations, insanely big state sponsored media disinformation, diletantically botched hitjobs - doing anything to try to look "great" on the international stage. Yet what you're achieving is the exact opposite, heck, you even make yourselves look more goofy than the other big country across the pond with the insane orange guy at the helm and that's quite the achievement I must say. And with every forum post, every faked russian media release, every new piece of totally obvious BS propaganda you are making it worse still! The world is laughing about you!

No, russians are not inferior, I'd even say on the contrary. There are several amazing russian mathematics and physics professors at my university I absolutely adore, I will often sit in their lectures in my free time just for the extra input. But most of those brilliant minds are leaving Russia, because there are people like yourself with their mindset stuck in the last century, in turn dearly costing the Russian nation with this brain-drain. If there are really that many with your view of the world as you claim in Russia, the future looks very bleak for you. Then the fall of the USSR was just a start and you're heading for much worse times even...

Sorry for the rant, maybe it opens the eyes of the one or other troll.
 
THS214
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:18 am

Braybuddy wrote:

Image



That CCTV photo was taken DAY BEFORE the attack. That's what I was asking you but you were busy rofl so you didn't care of truth.

I don't have a dog in this fight. It's just fun to read how people change facts to what ever they like.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:34 am

THS214 wrote:
That CCTV photo was taken DAY BEFORE the attack. That's what I was asking you but you were busy rofl so you didn't care of truth.

I don't have a dog in this fight. It's just fun to read how people change facts to what ever they like.

It proves that at least one of them had gloves with him, which you would expect if you didn't want to leave fingerprints. And, of course, these were two Russians who couldn't handle a bit of snow, remember?.
 
THS214
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:56 am

Braybuddy wrote:
THS214 wrote:
That CCTV photo was taken DAY BEFORE the attack. That's what I was asking you but you were busy rofl so you didn't care of truth.

I don't have a dog in this fight. It's just fun to read how people change facts to what ever they like.

It proves that at least one of them had gloves with him, which you would expect if you didn't want to leave fingerprints. And, of course, these were two Russians who couldn't handle a bit of snow, remember?.


The way I see it those gloves prove nothing. Most likely they had hospital type gloves as fingerprints would have been the least problem for them but the poison that would have went through normal gloves. But that "half feet snow" excuse is funny. And all the other explanations. Actually the picture in your post does prove something... On the day they decided that weather was too poor there was no snow on the ground.

This type of abnegation is normal for Russians. They want to see how others react and they will never accept guilt. That's why they want a strong leader and it's always others fault not theirs.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 9560
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:08 am

THS214 wrote:
This type of abnegation is normal for Russians. They want to see how others react and they will never accept guilt. That's why they want a strong leader and it's always others fault not theirs.


That is not a strong leader, just in appearance not in practice as we have seen. Doesn't matter if they accept guilt or not, in the end they are convicted.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Braybuddy
Posts: 6603
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:12 am

Zeppi wrote:
No, he's not. At all. It's the likes of you as well as your beloved Putin government that make it look to the rest of the world like Russia is still deeply entangled in a huge inferiority complex since the downfall of the USSR. Huge war games, state run doping programs, internet troll factories, illegal annexations, insanely big state sponsored media disinformation, diletantically botched hitjobs - doing anything to try to look "great" on the international stage. Yet what you're achieving is the exact opposite, heck, you even make yourselves look more goofy than the other big country across the pond with the insane orange guy at the helm and that's quite the achievement I must say. And with every forum post, every faked russian media release, every new piece of totally obvious BS propaganda you are making it worse still! The world is laughing about you!

No, russians are not inferior, I'd even say on the contrary. There are several amazing russian mathematics and physics professors at my university I absolutely adore, I will often sit in their lectures in my free time just for the extra input. But most of those brilliant minds are leaving Russia, because there are people like yourself with their mindset stuck in the last century, in turn dearly costing the Russian nation with this brain-drain. If there are really that many with your view of the world as you claim in Russia, the future looks very bleak for you. Then the fall of the USSR was just a start and you're heading for much worse times even...

And that, my dear friends Scorpius and anrec80, is it in a nutshell. If you peel behind the veneer of posturing, blustering and blundering that Putin is doing on the world's stage, you'll find a deeply insecure man who is dragging his country down a rabbit hole, IMHO. He was determined to portray Russia in a positive light by holding a successful World Cup -- which he did, by all intents and purposes -- even though I didn't actually see any of it.

Then he goes and spoils it all . . .

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