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seb146
Posts: 24071
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Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:36 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Prove it.


You already have over and over. All one needs to do is read this thread. You wanted names. I gave you one.

All of that assuming you're a democrat of course.


So, in other words, you got nothin. I want an actual quote of me saying I want open borders. That is what you say I said. Prove it. Show me the actual quote and from what number reply.

I'll help you:

DEMOCRATS DO NOT WANT OPEN BORDERS! GET OVER IT!
 
cargolex
Posts: 1245
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:20 pm

Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:06 pm

afcjets wrote:
Until Trump's executive order, it was illegal for children to go to jail with their parents. American families are separated everyday when a parent goes to jail, which is very sad for the children, as it is sad for the children of detained illegal immigrants. As Trump calculated, as soon as he signed the executive order, the left is now outraged kids are being held in detention centers with their parents, once and for all exposing the left's true position which is "no borders, no laws, sanctuary for all".


What a bunch of straight up lying BS and equivocating. It's almost like conservative parents don't teach children that lying is wrong but instead say "Create elaborate lies for yourself, it's fun!"

First off, Family Separation was in fact a policy on the books as a result of a court decision in the 90s. Correct. But virtually everything else you've said here is a lie. Do you enjoy Lying? Does lying make you a happy person? How must it feel to be a lying liar who lies?

It's true that Families have been separated in the past due to these regulations. However, those separations were kept to a minimum and handled by immigration courts, not criminal ones - because the offense - unlawful presence - is a misdemeanor that carries a civil penalty, not a criminal one, and because asylum seekers are entitled to a court hearing. And because separating that many people from their children would be barbaric and almost impossible to administer.

So it was never done on this scale until the zero tolerance order. Once it was, as predicted by previous administrations, it became impossible to administer - not that this stopped the "administration" from doing it and making a shit show out of it. A Shit show which could have been stopped at any time by a call from the "president."

Once the executive order was signed - because there was a real threat that congress would make a new law prohibiting this barbarism and only for that reason - the policy came to a partial end. Many children are missing and now we're talking about indefinite detention for migrant families in what amount to concentration camps. Camps built and run, btw, by contributors to the Trump campaign at considerable expense to the taxpayer.

Not that spending money matters when Republicans control things, right? Because all that interest in taxpayer dollars is just LIES, like everything else.

Then there's the false equivalence between "unlawful presence" and people going to jail for actual criminal acts. Because "unlawful presence" is, again, a Misdemeanor. Unlike lying on your SF-86 background check form, which Jared Kushner admitted to. Because all that interest in "the rule of law" is, once again, just lies.

As is, of course, the idea that Democrats want no borders at all. It's just a straight up, bald-faced lie.

Do you lie to your children? Do you lie to your coworkers? What's with all the lying? Why lie so often and in ways so demonstrably untrue?
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
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Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:55 pm

seb146 wrote:
So, in other words, you got nothin. I want an actual quote of me saying I want open borders. That is what you say I said. Prove it. Show me the actual quote and from what number reply.

I'll help you:

DEMOCRATS DO NOT WANT OPEN BORDERS! GET OVER IT!


No, just giving you chance to admit it yourself. You don't have to actually say the exact words for us to know that you stand for open borders.

Here's what we know you're not for. You're not in support of a secure border. How do we know that? You openly criticize and resist the single largest, most important tool to securing the border--a physical barrier (and other tools to secure the border too, for that matter). There's no debate with that. It's like owning a house with a mouse problem due to holes in the walls, and then not doing anything about the holes. It's one of two things. It's either lunacy, or it's intentional. So now that we know you're not for secure borders based on your consistent statements, logically the opposite must be true. You're for insecure borders. And then all the argument about is what adjective is most appropriate to describe your views about the border--"open" or "insecure". Why don't you just own up to your beliefs? Why make it worse by denying it?
 
cargolex
Posts: 1245
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:20 pm

Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:58 pm

Opposing wasting billions of dollars on a 14th century solution to a "problem" that doesn't really seem to be particularly pressing (unless you just hate Brown people) isn't the same as being in favor of "open borders." One wonders why "conservatives" always have to resort to unrepentant lying to try and make their arguments.
 
NoTime
Posts: 626
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:21 am

Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:16 pm

seb146 wrote:
BTW, since you can not find anything other than "liberals want...." with zero proof, here is a thumbnail sketch of what Democrats are proposing

https://www.democrats.org/issues/immigration-reform


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Wow, yeah, that's certainly a detailed plan. (yes, that's sarcasm).

Seriously, that's not even a thumbnail sketch... it's a few paragraphs designed to make lefties feel warm and fuzzy.
 
WIederling
Posts: 10041
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Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:44 pm

NoTime wrote:
Mir wrote:
NoTime wrote:

OK, so would the "don't force others to live by your moral code" also apply to the implementation of family separation?


Abortion is, of course, not equivalent to the kidnapping of children.


Correct. It's the equivalent of killing them.


How do you see spontaneous abortion?
Are you going to prosecute nature for murder?
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24071
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:25 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
So, in other words, you got nothin. I want an actual quote of me saying I want open borders. That is what you say I said. Prove it. Show me the actual quote and from what number reply.

I'll help you:

DEMOCRATS DO NOT WANT OPEN BORDERS! GET OVER IT!


No, just giving you chance to admit it yourself. You don't have to actually say the exact words for us to know that you stand for open borders.


I did not say it for a reason. Can you guess why? Don't over think it and don't let your right wing handlers put ideas in your head. Look at what I actually said. Or, how about this:

You never said you are against locking kids in cages, so you must be for it. You never said you are against killing LGBTQ people, so you must be for it.

Here's what we know you're not for. You're not in support of a secure border. How do we know that? You openly criticize and resist the single largest, most important tool to securing the border--a physical barrier (and other tools to secure the border too, for that matter). There's no debate with that. It's like owning a house with a mouse problem due to holes in the walls, and then not doing anything about the holes. It's one of two things. It's either lunacy, or it's intentional. So now that we know you're not for secure borders based on your consistent statements, logically the opposite must be true. You're for insecure borders. And then all the argument about is what adjective is most appropriate to describe your views about the border--"open" or "insecure". Why don't you just own up to your beliefs? Why make it worse by denying it?


And when did I say I was not for any of that? Show me exactly. I keep asking for examples but you just keep saying what I am for and against, with zero examples.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
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Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:59 pm

seb146 wrote:
I did not say it for a reason.


Of course you did. You don't want to publicly admit your stance on border security (or lack thereof). You want to known as someone who is not for an open border, yet also known to be advocate for policies that promote an open border. Can't have it both ways, seb. 2+2 =/= 5 in the real world.

seb146 wrote:
Don't over think it and don't let your right wing handlers put ideas in your head. Look at what I actually said. Or, how about this:

You never said you are against locking kids in cages, so you must be for it. You never said you are against killing LGBTQ people, so you must be for it.


Don't dig your hole any deeper. You haven't abstained from stating your support for actions and policies that promote the current insecure borders. Once you make those statements, all we need is a logic test to know your true position. Denying that you've made those statements is childish. Let's have a mature conversation here. Why are you so afraid to admit your true position? If an insecure border is the best policy for America, why run from it? Why not stand on it and try to persuade others that you're right?
 
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seb146
Posts: 24071
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Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:17 am

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I did not say it for a reason.


Of course you did. You don't want to publicly admit your stance on border security (or lack thereof). You want to known as someone who is not for an open border, yet also known to be advocate for policies that promote an open border. Can't have it both ways, seb. 2+2 =/= 5 in the real world.

seb146 wrote:
Don't over think it and don't let your right wing handlers put ideas in your head. Look at what I actually said. Or, how about this:

You never said you are against locking kids in cages, so you must be for it. You never said you are against killing LGBTQ people, so you must be for it.


Don't dig your hole any deeper. You haven't abstained from stating your support for actions and policies that promote the current insecure borders. Once you make those statements, all we need is a logic test to know your true position. Denying that you've made those statements is childish. Let's have a mature conversation here. Why are you so afraid to admit your true position? If an insecure border is the best policy for America, why run from it? Why not stand on it and try to persuade others that you're right?


I am going to keep asking this:

When did I say I am for "insecure borders"? When did I say that? I do not agree with righties. That does not mean I am for open borders. As much as you think it does, it does not mean that. If you are so sure I said something, you would quote it to me. You would show me exactly where and when I said what you think I said.

I used your "simple logic" you bring up to prove, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that you are for killing LGBTQ people. One Republican candidate said it, you never denied it, therefore, you are for it. See how flawed your logic is? Someone said "open borders" and, since I do not agree with Republicans letter for letter on border security, it is only logical that I am for open borders. That is your reasoning. And it is flawed.

You are so wrapped up in playing "gotcha" that you don't care about facts or answering questions. All you want is for me to say something I don't believe in just so you can say you are right. That is the only reason you want to believe I said something I did not say.

Give it up.
 
NoTime
Posts: 626
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:21 am

Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:52 pm

WIederling wrote:
NoTime wrote:
Mir wrote:

Abortion is, of course, not equivalent to the kidnapping of children.


Correct. It's the equivalent of killing them.


How do you see spontaneous abortion?
Are you going to prosecute nature for murder?


What a silly question. Do we prosecute anyone when someone dies of natural causes?

Are you really trying to compare spontaneous abortion to deliberate abortion? That's an approach that I haven't seen before... for obvious reasons.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14689
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:41 pm

NoTime wrote:
WIederling wrote:
NoTime wrote:

Correct. It's the equivalent of killing them.


How do you see spontaneous abortion?
Are you going to prosecute nature for murder?


What a silly question. Do we prosecute anyone when someone dies of natural causes?

Are you really trying to compare spontaneous abortion to deliberate abortion? That's an approach that I haven't seen before... for obvious reasons.


I guess you have never heard about criminal prosecution for suspicious miscarriages then.... happens in the US much less than in some other places, but does already happen.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/08/opin ... ights.html

best regards
Thomas
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24071
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Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:05 pm

The right loves that one verse in Leviticus to justify their hate, they should check out two other verses from the same book. They are not about hate, so they probably are going to be ignored by the right. Like anything else about love and tolerance and acceptance. Leviticus 19:33-34

EDIT:

I just found an interesting read on Islam and immigrants

http://jsr.shanti.virginia.edu/back-iss ... mmigrants/

Basically, treat others how you want to be treated. Even immigrants.
 
afcjets
Posts: 3846
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:17 pm

delete
Last edited by afcjets on Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
afcjets
Posts: 3846
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:18 pm

cargolex wrote:
afcjets wrote:
Until Trump's executive order, it was illegal for children to go to jail with their parents. American families are separated everyday when a parent goes to jail, which is very sad for the children, as it is sad for the children of detained illegal immigrants. As Trump calculated, as soon as he signed the executive order, the left is now outraged kids are being held in detention centers with their parents, once and for all exposing the left's true position which is "no borders, no laws, sanctuary for all".

What a bunch of straight up lying BS and equivocating. It's almost like conservative parents don't teach children that lying is wrong but instead say "Create elaborate lies for yourself, it's fun!"

First off, Family Separation was in fact a policy on the books as a result of a court decision in the 90s. Correct. But virtually everything else you've said here is a lie. Do you enjoy Lying? Does lying make you a happy person? How must it feel to be a lying liar who lies?....

As is, of course, the idea that Democrats want no borders at all. It's just a straight up, bald-faced lie.

Do you lie to your children? Do you lie to your coworkers? What's with all the lying? Why lie so often and in ways so demonstrably untrue?


"A staggering 53 percent of Democrats polled, however, believe that any immigrant that makes it to America’s borders should be allowed to stay.
But despite Democrats saying they are against open borders, the majority of their base says otherwise."

http://dailycaller.com/2018/07/02/polli ... errifying/
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24071
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:44 pm

afcjets wrote:
cargolex wrote:
afcjets wrote:
Until Trump's executive order, it was illegal for children to go to jail with their parents. American families are separated everyday when a parent goes to jail, which is very sad for the children, as it is sad for the children of detained illegal immigrants. As Trump calculated, as soon as he signed the executive order, the left is now outraged kids are being held in detention centers with their parents, once and for all exposing the left's true position which is "no borders, no laws, sanctuary for all".

What a bunch of straight up lying BS and equivocating. It's almost like conservative parents don't teach children that lying is wrong but instead say "Create elaborate lies for yourself, it's fun!"

First off, Family Separation was in fact a policy on the books as a result of a court decision in the 90s. Correct. But virtually everything else you've said here is a lie. Do you enjoy Lying? Does lying make you a happy person? How must it feel to be a lying liar who lies?....

As is, of course, the idea that Democrats want no borders at all. It's just a straight up, bald-faced lie.

Do you lie to your children? Do you lie to your coworkers? What's with all the lying? Why lie so often and in ways so demonstrably untrue?


"A staggering 53 percent of Democrats polled, however, believe that any immigrant that makes it to America’s borders should be allowed to stay.
But despite Democrats saying they are against open borders, the majority of their base says otherwise."

http://dailycaller.com/2018/07/02/polli ... errifying/


So, a right wing site publishes a right wing poll from a different right wing site that half of Democrats they polled want people who cross to stay. THAT IS NOT OPEN BORDERS! Half of Democrats polled by this right wing site say that if people cross the border they should be allowed to stay. Are those Democrats wanting amnesty for the immigrants? Either way: IT IS NOT OPEN BORDERS! This "poll" was published to gin up the base.
 
cargolex
Posts: 1245
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:20 pm

Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:55 am

afcjets wrote:

"A staggering 53 percent of Democrats polled, however, believe that any immigrant that makes it to America’s borders should be allowed to stay.
But despite Democrats saying they are against open borders, the majority of their base says otherwise."

http://dailycaller.com/2018/07/02/polli ... errifying/


So a poll from alt-right bullshit central is your argument that you are not a lying liar who lies and is lying currently about both the situation as a whole and this specific point? What's so attractive about being a lying liar who lies?

You're aware of course that this poll is an push poll whose methodologies are questionable enough that it is only referenced by hard right outlets like WorldNet Daily or CNS news and, of course, the Daily Caller - all friends of White Supremacists and Fascist sympathizers such as yourself?

I'm guessing you get your information from these wildly inaccurate, essentially totally phony sources, and that that's why you believe the drivel you repeat like a demented mynah bird.

But that you are citing fake polling to justify fake arguments for a fake situation with real consequences for people other than yourself doesn't matter, does it? Comforting lies are much more comforting, especially for lying liars who lie. I wonder if you lie as often to your family, your children, or you co-workers as you do to us.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14689
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:12 am

seb146 wrote:
The right loves that one verse in Leviticus to justify their hate, they should check out two other verses from the same book. They are not about hate, so they probably are going to be ignored by the right. Like anything else about love and tolerance and acceptance. Leviticus 19:33-34.


Well, the beauty of Religion is that you can pick and chose whatever the hell you want. There are 613 commandments in the Bible, very few know them all and a good chunk of people believes that they can ignore 612 of them as long they accept Jesus as their savior, because if you want to, scripture can support that position. There are over 40.000 Christian sects for a reason.

best regards
Thomas
 
afcjets
Posts: 3846
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:25 am

seb146 wrote:
So, a right wing site publishes a right wing poll from a different right wing site that half of Democrats they polled want people who cross to stay.


Since when is Harvard University considered right wing?
 
Ken777
Posts: 10197
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:27 am

Just saw this article in WaPo:

A church put Jesus, Mary and Joseph in ‘ICE detention’ to protest Trump’s immigration policies


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act ... e3459ecf3a

Worth clicking on the link for the visual. A pretty bad visual for Christian Conservatives who believe they own Jusus.
 
afcjets
Posts: 3846
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:33 am

tommy1808 wrote:
There are 613 commandments in the Bible, very few know them all and a good chunk of people believes that they can ignore 612 of them as long they accept Jesus as their savior, because if you want to, scripture can support that position.


What are the 613 commandments in the Bible?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14689
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:42 am

Ken777 wrote:
Just saw this article in WaPo:

A church put Jesus, Mary and Joseph in ‘ICE detention’ to protest Trump’s immigration policies


Worth clicking on the link for the visual. A pretty bad visual for Christian Conservatives who believe they own Jusus.


If Egypt had Trumps preferred policy, return refugee seekers without due process of law, Jesus would have been killed by King Herod´s man.

Instead of a cage they should show a mountain of baby corpses with a dead Jesus on top..... that would provide the right visuals.

best regards
Thomas
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14689
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:45 am

afcjets wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
There are 613 commandments in the Bible, very few know them all and a good chunk of people believes that they can ignore 612 of them as long they accept Jesus as their savior, because if you want to, scripture can support that position.


What are the 613 commandments in the Bible?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_comma ... ides'_list

best regards
Thomas
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:19 am

seb146 wrote:

I am going to keep asking this:

When did I say I am for "insecure borders"? When did I say that? I do not agree with righties. That does not mean I am for open borders. As much as you think it does, it does not mean that. If you are so sure I said something, you would quote it to me. You would show me exactly where and when I said what you think I said.

I used your "simple logic" you bring up to prove, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that you are for killing LGBTQ people. One Republican candidate said it, you never denied it, therefore, you are for it. See how flawed your logic is? Someone said "open borders" and, since I do not agree with Republicans letter for letter on border security, it is only logical that I am for open borders. That is your reasoning. And it is flawed.

You are so wrapped up in playing "gotcha" that you don't care about facts or answering questions. All you want is for me to say something I don't believe in just so you can say you are right. That is the only reason you want to believe I said something I did not say.

Give it up.


Seb, I'm not so stupid as to fall for a "prove it" session when you'll simply deny that the facts and logical conclusions pointed out to you exist. Anyone who is cognizant enough to find this thread either knows your posting history or can do a simple "seb146" & "border" or "wall" search. Do you really want me to post your history as if you don't know your own self? I'm not going to shame you like that.

We know where you stand. You've made that clear over and over and over in this thread and countless others. You stand for leaky borders for the reasons I just mentioned. Don't play dumb as if what I just posted doesn't exist. Just own up to your position! I'll say the same thing--give it up. More logical fallacies against me are simply digging your hole deeper. Time to be mature and debate honestly. Let's have a debate that centers on why you think it's better for this country to have less than secure borders.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24071
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Family "separation" - can a christian support such policy

Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:56 am

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:

I am going to keep asking this:

When did I say I am for "insecure borders"? When did I say that? I do not agree with righties. That does not mean I am for open borders. As much as you think it does, it does not mean that. If you are so sure I said something, you would quote it to me. You would show me exactly where and when I said what you think I said.

I used your "simple logic" you bring up to prove, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that you are for killing LGBTQ people. One Republican candidate said it, you never denied it, therefore, you are for it. See how flawed your logic is? Someone said "open borders" and, since I do not agree with Republicans letter for letter on border security, it is only logical that I am for open borders. That is your reasoning. And it is flawed.

You are so wrapped up in playing "gotcha" that you don't care about facts or answering questions. All you want is for me to say something I don't believe in just so you can say you are right. That is the only reason you want to believe I said something I did not say.

Give it up.


Seb, I'm not so stupid as to fall for a "prove it" session when you'll simply deny that the facts and logical conclusions pointed out to you exist. Anyone who is cognizant enough to find this thread either knows your posting history or can do a simple "seb146" & "border" or "wall" search. Do you really want me to post your history as if you don't know your own self? I'm not going to shame you like that.

We know where you stand. You've made that clear over and over and over in this thread and countless others. You stand for leaky borders for the reasons I just mentioned. Don't play dumb as if what I just posted doesn't exist. Just own up to your position! I'll say the same thing--give it up. More logical fallacies against me are simply digging your hole deeper. Time to be mature and debate honestly. Let's have a debate that centers on why you think it's better for this country to have less than secure borders.


PROVE
IT

I don't know why that is so hard. You make a claim. You tell me to prove it but YOU ARE THE ONE MAKING THE CLAIM. Because you make the claim the onus is on you.

PROVE
IT

You keep saying it over and over. I do not want it but you do not get it

PROVE
IT

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