tommy1808
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:18 pm

zhiao wrote:
Lets look at actual facts for manufacturing:


Figure 11 and 12 from your link are the interesting ones. Correlate with pay further down. Neither productivity, nor output matter much when your per unit prices still goes up compared to others or stays way up (China).

And just fun to know, working in manufacturing pays better in Germany than in the US.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:26 pm

zhiao wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
.
Alternatively, use the second link provided by Tommy and compare the US productivity (growth) with that of both the whole of the EU as well as the euro(currency)zone to see how the US is lagging...
Verry telling graph, but I can't post sceenshots right now, sadly.


It shows EU has higher productivity growth between 2010-2016. However, the US was higher between 1990-2010. So your story line of "higher productivity growth" is predicated on you cherry picking very specific years and not looking the very broad picture. Also, who is to say US productivity will not rebound? You do not know that...


It's not cherry picking, it's explaining with facts and figures exactly what has changed and why we are where we are now.

And indeed, there's nothing preventing the US from rebounding again: in fact, I very much think it will, however it's NOT going to be achieved by denying the current state or mis-identifying the underlying problems, nor is it going to be made great again by the economic policies used by this administration: a productivity problem isn't solved by protectionism, because such will only help on the domestic market, not on export markets (as the HD story nicely demonstrates), nor does it make US manufacturered goods any better, any more efficient or any cheaper, quite on the contrary even!
 
zhiao
Posts: 471
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:35 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
zhiao wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:

As you've meanwhile figured out, those are figures for the whole of the economy, including services which are massively distorting the picture and have blinded most people (including Mr Trump). To put it very simple: all the software packs Microsoft are selling increase the GDP of the US for hardly any work at all (it's just an electronic copy downloaded), yet that economic output hides the low output per manhour the US factories in statistics.

Try digging up figures for manufacturing only and you'll see why the US has a much harder time competing against lower cost countries like Mexico, than for instance Germany has in competing against fellow EU low cost country Bulgaria...

The bottom line must make sense for a global manufacturing basis to survive:
( wage per hour x production output per hour ) - transportation costs
Competing with lower wage countries IS possible but you need to be efficient: it doesn't help if you're producing in plants from the 1990s, stocking up goods in warehouses from the 1970s and transporting them along roads and railways from the 1960s...


Lets look at actual facts for manufacturing:

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42135.pdf

1. USA number 2 in world in manufacturing value added
2. Investment in Manufacturing Fixed Capital as Share of GDP is HIGHER in USA vs France, NL, Uk, and therefore most EU nations. Germany is higher, I agree.This goes directly to your point about investment in capital.If US invests more in manufacturing capital than most EU nations and therefore the EU, then this directly contradicts what you said.


I suggest you read the document through carefully, or alternatively just the summary at the beginning....
Very telling and fully in line with what I've been saying: US share in global manufacturing declining not just by the advent of countries like the PRC: US output growth slower than other countries, lower investments in innovation comparted to other countries, eroding relative productivity edge, dropping output per labour hour even (together with the UK, that other country which angrily threw its toys away with Brexit), ...
Yes, the US manufacturing is still strong, but it's facing a real treat of being overwhelmed in future as this report shows once again: closing off the US economy to protect it is not the long term solution: investment, innovation and education is.


Again, I am being being specific and you go on these broad journeys. Let me repeat, you said the EU invests more in manufacturing capital than the USA. The paper clearly shows that only Germany does. So not sure why you cannot admit you were wrong on this point. It's irrelevant whether productivity output has been growing more slowly recently, as this was not the claim I debunked. I even said you were right for 2010-2016 period.

You also just espoused another incorrect statement, that the US has "lower investments in innovation comparted to other countries." This is 100% false and can easily be substantiated by R&D spending as a % of GDP:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... t_spending

^US spends DOUBLE the EU per capita amount in R&D, and more as a % of GDP than either China or EU. In fact, China is ahead of the EU, so quite frankly you should be a little more worried about yourself. As a Spanish citizen, I am ashamed of these Spanish numbers--- 1.1%! This tells me their little boom will not last long term.
 
zhiao
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:38 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
zhiao wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
.
Alternatively, use the second link provided by Tommy and compare the US productivity (growth) with that of both the whole of the EU as well as the euro(currency)zone to see how the US is lagging...
Verry telling graph, but I can't post sceenshots right now, sadly.


It shows EU has higher productivity growth between 2010-2016. However, the US was higher between 1990-2010. So your story line of "higher productivity growth" is predicated on you cherry picking very specific years and not looking the very broad picture. Also, who is to say US productivity will not rebound? You do not know that...


It's not cherry picking, it's explaining with facts and figures exactly what has changed and why we are where we are now.

And indeed, there's nothing preventing the US from rebounding again: in fact, I very much think it will, however it's NOT going to be achieved by denying the current state or mis-identifying the underlying problems, nor is it going to be made great again by the economic policies used by this administration: a productivity problem isn't solved by protectionism, because such will only help on the domestic market, not on export markets (as the HD story nicely demonstrates), nor does it make US manufacturered goods any better, any more efficient or any cheaper, quite on the contrary even!


I generally agree with this statement. But I think we are overestimating govt impact. It's really the private sector is controls whether to invest or not. And recently, investment is moving higher which will pay dividends going fw.
 
VTKillarney1
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:38 pm

It is interesting that the Democrats are now rallying against tariffs. To be fair, Bill Clinton tore down tons of tariffs, but Bernie Sanders must be scratching his head right now.
 
VTKillarney1
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:39 pm

zhiao wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
zhiao wrote:

It shows EU has higher productivity growth between 2010-2016. However, the US was higher between 1990-2010. So your story line of "higher productivity growth" is predicated on you cherry picking very specific years and not looking the very broad picture. Also, who is to say US productivity will not rebound? You do not know that...


It's not cherry picking, it's explaining with facts and figures exactly what has changed and why we are where we are now.

And indeed, there's nothing preventing the US from rebounding again: in fact, I very much think it will, however it's NOT going to be achieved by denying the current state or mis-identifying the underlying problems, nor is it going to be made great again by the economic policies used by this administration: a productivity problem isn't solved by protectionism, because such will only help on the domestic market, not on export markets (as the HD story nicely demonstrates), nor does it make US manufacturered goods any better, any more efficient or any cheaper, quite on the contrary even!


I generally agree with this statement. But I think we are overestimating govt impact. It's really the private sector is controls whether to invest or not. And recently, investment is moving higher which will pay dividends going fw.

I see tariffs as a disincentive but regulation rollbacks as an incentive. I’m not sure how they will weigh against each other.
 
Mir
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:42 pm

VTKillarney1 wrote:
It is interesting that the Democrats are now rallying against tariffs. To be fair, Bill Clinton tore down tons of tariffs, but Bernie Sanders must be scratching his head right now.


It's almost as if someone who failed to win the Democrat nomination doesn't reflect the broader views of the party. Crazy.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
VTKillarney1
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:48 pm

Mir wrote:
VTKillarney1 wrote:
It is interesting that the Democrats are now rallying against tariffs. To be fair, Bill Clinton tore down tons of tariffs, but Bernie Sanders must be scratching his head right now.


It's almost as if someone who failed to win the Democrat nomination doesn't reflect the broader views of the party. Crazy.

He won enough votes that it at least shows that there is a rift in the party.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:43 pm

zhiao wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
zhiao wrote:

It shows EU has higher productivity growth between 2010-2016. However, the US was higher between 1990-2010. So your story line of "higher productivity growth" is predicated on you cherry picking very specific years and not looking the very broad picture. Also, who is to say US productivity will not rebound? You do not know that...


It's not cherry picking, it's explaining with facts and figures exactly what has changed and why we are where we are now.

And indeed, there's nothing preventing the US from rebounding again: in fact, I very much think it will, however it's NOT going to be achieved by denying the current state or mis-identifying the underlying problems, nor is it going to be made great again by the economic policies used by this administration: a productivity problem isn't solved by protectionism, because such will only help on the domestic market, not on export markets (as the HD story nicely demonstrates), nor does it make US manufacturered goods any better, any more efficient or any cheaper, quite on the contrary even!


I generally agree with this statement. But I think we are overestimating govt impact. It's really the private sector is controls whether to invest or not. And recently, investment is moving higher which will pay dividends going fw.


Government has great influence on private sector spending, notably in the field of innovation, which goes much wider than just R&D you refer to.
Besides, its more than just private sector investments which need to go up to create a paradigm change: it needs to be coupled with government spending on infrastructure and education, 2 field with 'room for improvement' to say the least... a tax break is about the stupidest way to spend government money as it will just put some more money in people's pocket to buy cheap -often imported- goods with, thus increasing the trade deficit further, on top of the budget deficit that it. Better to put infrastructure under their feet, skills in their hands and knowledge in their heads with it...
 
zhiao
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:14 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
zhiao wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:

It's not cherry picking, it's explaining with facts and figures exactly what has changed and why we are where we are now.

And indeed, there's nothing preventing the US from rebounding again: in fact, I very much think it will, however it's NOT going to be achieved by denying the current state or mis-identifying the underlying problems, nor is it going to be made great again by the economic policies used by this administration: a productivity problem isn't solved by protectionism, because such will only help on the domestic market, not on export markets (as the HD story nicely demonstrates), nor does it make US manufacturered goods any better, any more efficient or any cheaper, quite on the contrary even!


I generally agree with this statement. But I think we are overestimating govt impact. It's really the private sector is controls whether to invest or not. And recently, investment is moving higher which will pay dividends going fw.


Government has great influence on private sector spending, notably in the field of innovation, which goes much wider than just R&D you refer to.
Besides, its more than just private sector investments which need to go up to create a paradigm change: it needs to be coupled with government spending on infrastructure and education, 2 field with 'room for improvement' to say the least... a tax break is about the stupidest way to spend government money as it will just put some more money in people's pocket to buy cheap -often imported- goods with, thus increasing the trade deficit further, on top of the budget deficit that it. Better to put infrastructure under their feet, skills in their hands and knowledge in their heads with it...


I agree that tax cuts for rich people is dumb. But I do think the corporate simplification and cut was reasonable. Innovation has a multidimensional aspect, and involves aspects which cannot be quantitatively measured.
 
idlewild
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:21 pm

seahawk wrote:
So increase the tariffs on European products, if they hinder the success of an American company. No more BMW on American streets.


Considering VW (as it relates to Germany) owns quite a few luxury brands, I'm not so sure it will play out in very conservative Orange County, Cali, and other places like it.
 
Redd
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:50 pm

VTKillarney1 wrote:
Manufacturing jobs are up 322,000 under Trump. While the impact of tariffs still needs to play out, those of you doing a victory dance over this single data point are letting your partisan hackery show.


Manufacturing has been going up since 2009. Best year to date in manufacturing job creation was in 2014 since 2009. So 322,000 jobs in manufacturing since Trump took office has as much to do with Trump as the moon landings. Nothing has changed and the trend is continuing.

If you're actually interested in why the trend in manufacturing jobs is going up (not only in the USA but the western world) it has everything to do with the 2008 financial crisis and a realization on the part of governments that a service-based economy carries too much risk and needs to be diversified. Manufacturing not only creates goods but drives innovation and exponentially raises the value of the service based economy.

These trends were all made during the Obama administration. Don't let a single data point (322,000) stop you from looking at the big picture.

Image
Last edited by Redd on Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
VTKillarney1
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:55 pm

Redd wrote:
VTKillarney1 wrote:
Manufacturing jobs are up 322,000 under Trump. While the impact of tariffs still needs to play out, those of you doing a victory dance over this single data point are letting your partisan hackery show.


Manufacturing has been going up since 2009. Best year to date in manufacturing job creation was in 2014 since 2009. So 322,000 jobs in manufacturing since Trump took office has as much to do with Trump as the moon landings. Nothing has changed and the trend is continuing.

If you're actually interested in why the trend in manufacturing jobs is going up (not only in the USA but the western world) it has everything to do with the 2008 financial crisis and a realization on the part of governments that a service-only economy carries too much risk and needs to be diversified. Manufacturing not only creates goods but drives innovation and exponentially raises the value of the service based economy.

These trends were all made during the Obama administration. Don't let a single data point (322,000) stop you from looking at the big picture.

This was my point. The sky is not falling. I didn’t attribute the “why” to Trump - just the “what.”
 
vfw614
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:43 pm

seahawk wrote:
So increase the tariffs on European products, if they hinder the success of an American company. No more BMW on American streets.


BMW's X3, X4, X5, X6 and X7 SUVs - which probably make up most of the US sales - are built in Spartanburg, South Carolina, and shipped worldwide from there. No more BMW on American streets = 23.000 more unemployed folks in South Carolina. Actually, 250.000 BMWs are exported from the US each year, not imported. So one has to wonder on what the Donald's obsession with BMW is based.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:04 pm

vfw614 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
So increase the tariffs on European products, if they hinder the success of an American company. No more BMW on American streets.


BMW's X3, X4, X5, X6 and X7 SUVs - which probably make up most of the US sales - are built in Spartanburg, South Carolina, and shipped worldwide from there. No more BMW on American streets = 23.000 more unemployed folks in South Carolina. Actually, 250.000 BMWs are exported from the US each year, not imported. So one has to wonder on what the Donald's obsession with BMW is based.


Did Trump ever need facts. In the last 2 decades all 3 big German manufacturers did build large manufacturing plants in the USA, but Trump isa the president and he will know what is best for the USA. Even if it means that the executives at Ford will probably get a heart attack with their idea of making each model in one factory for the global market...
 
dragon-wings
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:44 am

On Twitter Trump threatened Harley Davidson huge taxes. He said

"A Harley-Davidson should never be built in another country-never! Their employees and customers are already very angry at them. If they move, watch, it will be the beginning of the end - they surrendered, they quit! The Aura will be gone and they will be taxed like never before!"

Maybe I read it the wrong way, but it sounds like he threatened to tax them til they shut down?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 5040419840
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/26/busi ... riffs.html
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
VTKillarney1
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:45 am

dragon-wings wrote:
On Twitter Trump threatened Harley Davidson huge taxes. He said

"A Harley-Davidson should never be built in another country-never! Their employees and customers are already very angry at them. If they move, watch, it will be the beginning of the end - they surrendered, they quit! The Aura will be gone and they will be taxed like never before!"

Maybe I read it the wrong way, but it sounds like he threatened to tax them til they shut down?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 5040419840
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/26/busi ... riffs.html

Definitely an ill-advised tweet.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:25 am

dragon-wings wrote:
On Twitter Trump threatened Harley Davidson huge taxes. He said

"A Harley-Davidson should never be built in another country-never! Their employees and customers are already very angry at them. If they move, watch, it will be the beginning of the end - they surrendered, they quit! The Aura will be gone and they will be taxed like never before!"

Maybe I read it the wrong way, but it sounds like he threatened to tax them til they shut down?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 5040419840
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/26/busi ... riffs.html

He continues to be a poor president. He doesn't care about American business (just his own), he just cares about "True Americans", Real American business, businesses that are willing to kow tow and be bullied.

And he will bully and threaten and doesn't care if an American business looses hundreds of millions doing to play his game.

Trump may be rich but he is a poor president.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:28 am

VTKillarney1 wrote:
dragon-wings wrote:
On Twitter Trump threatened Harley Davidson huge taxes. He said

"A Harley-Davidson should never be built in another country-never! Their employees and customers are already very angry at them. If they move, watch, it will be the beginning of the end - they surrendered, they quit! The Aura will be gone and they will be taxed like never before!"

Maybe I read it the wrong way, but it sounds like he threatened to tax them til they shut down?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 5040419840
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/26/busi ... riffs.html

Definitely an ill-advised tweet.


Bill of Attainder. Definition: A legislative act that singles out an individual or group for punishment without a trial. The Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 9, paragraph 3 provides that: "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law will be passed."


It's blatantly unconstitutional, is what it is.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:44 am

Jouhou wrote:

Bill of Attainder. Definition: A legislative act that singles out an individual or group for punishment without a trial. The Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 9, paragraph 3 provides that: "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law will be passed."


It's blatantly unconstitutional, is what it is.


If only someone got Trump to read the constitution. Or to read period.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:46 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Bill of Attainder. Definition: A legislative act that singles out an individual or group for punishment without a trial. The Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 9, paragraph 3 provides that: "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law will be passed."


It's blatantly unconstitutional, is what it is.


If only someone got Trump to read the constitution. Or to read period.

Best regards
Thomas


Supposedly they tried getting him to learn the bill of rights. They only got to the 4th amendment before he had enough.
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:28 pm

vfw614 wrote:
No surprise that they simply move production for the European market out of the US.



#MAGA in action. :duck:
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:32 pm

dragon-wings wrote:

"A Harley-Davidson should never be built in another country-never!

[...] they will be taxed like never before!"



How will Trump tax American built Harleys? From my understanding, the ones being built outside the US aren't being imported back into the U.S.
 
VTKillarney1
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:41 pm

skyservice_330 wrote:
Is there any previous history of a President threatening (or actually using) the tax code to punish a company, directly, that they disagreed with (in terms of a business decision the company made that was within the law etc.)?

Good question. I know that very recently a President used the IRS to discriminate against non-profits that were associated with groups having different political views than himself.
 
skyservice_330
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:41 pm

Is there any previous history of a President threatening (or actually using) the tax code to punish a company, directly, that they disagreed with (in terms of a business decision the company made that was within the law etc.)?
 
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Tugger
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:00 pm

VTKillarney1 wrote:
skyservice_330 wrote:
Is there any previous history of a President threatening (or actually using) the tax code to punish a company, directly, that they disagreed with (in terms of a business decision the company made that was within the law etc.)?

Good question. I know that very recently a President used the IRS to discriminate against non-profits that were associated with groups having different political views than himself.

Really? Which president?

Or to use your phrasing:

Interesting claim. What evidence do you have to support it?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
VTKillarney1
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:03 pm

Tugger wrote:
VTKillarney1 wrote:
skyservice_330 wrote:
Is there any previous history of a President threatening (or actually using) the tax code to punish a company, directly, that they disagreed with (in terms of a business decision the company made that was within the law etc.)?

Good question. I know that very recently a President used the IRS to discriminate against non-profits that were associated with groups having different political views than himself.

Really? Which president?

Or to use your phrasing:

Interesting claim. What evidence do you have to support it?

Tugg

Sure thing:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/26/us/p ... ement.html

I can provide more.
 
VTKillarney1
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:11 pm

skyservice_330 wrote:
Is there any previous history of a President threatening (or actually using) the tax code to punish a company, directly, that they disagreed with (in terms of a business decision the company made that was within the law etc.)?

At least five Presidents, including three Democrats, have used the IRS for political gain. At least one of those, a Democrat, went after businesses in particular:
https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/ ... Coolidge-R
 
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Tugger
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:21 pm

VTKillarney1 wrote:

Yes, please do. You stated "I know that very recently a President used the IRS to discriminate". There is nothing about a president in the article mentioned.

Again, to use your phrasing: Me thinks thou art "baiting".

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
VTKillarney1
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:25 pm

Tugger wrote:
VTKillarney1 wrote:

Yes, please do. You stated "I know that very recently a President used the IRS to discriminate". There is nothing about a president in the article mentioned.

Again, to use your phrasing: Me thinks thou art "baiting".

Tugg

Unlike the partisans here, as a moderate, I am very happy to clarify a misrepresentation. The more correct statement would be that the IRS did so under the leadership of Obama - not necessarily under his direction. While I do believe that a President should have some degree of accountability for actions committed under the watch of his political appointees, this is a more accurate way of describing what happened.

See? That's not so hard, is it?

I have, however, posted a link earlier in this thread showing how at least five presidents, including three Democrats, have used the IRS to go after their political opponents, and how one Democrat president out of those three also targeted businesses.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:38 pm

VTKillarney1 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
VTKillarney1 wrote:

Yes, please do. You stated "I know that very recently a President used the IRS to discriminate". There is nothing about a president in the article mentioned.

Again, to use your phrasing: Me thinks thou art "baiting".

Tugg

Unlike the partisans here, as a moderate, I am very happy to clarify a misrepresentation. The more correct statement would be that the IRS did so under the leadership of Obama - not necessarily under his direction. While I do believe that a President should have some degree of accountability for actions committed under the watch of his political appointees, this is a more accurate way of describing what happened.

See? That's not so hard, is it?

I think more appropriate would be "under (or during) the Obama administration". The way you are saying it makes it sounds like you are stating that actively Obama directed or encouraged (led) it to happen. I know partisan baiting is easy to do unintentionally and I know you don't intend that.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
VTKillarney1
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Re: Harley Davidson to move part of production out of the US

Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:39 pm

Tugger wrote:
I think more appropriate would be "under (or during) the Obama administration". The way you are saying it makes it sounds like you are stating that actively Obama directed or encouraged (led) it to happen. I know partisan baiting is easy to do unintentionally and I know you don't intend that.

Tugg

No argument from me. As should be clear, I am always committed to accuracy over partisanship.

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