VTKillarney1
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:32 pm

seb146 wrote:
Do you know what it is like to negotiate with a major corporation?

As a matter of fact, I do. I negotiated better pay and benefits than my counterparts. I was in demand and knew it.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:01 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
If not, then if minimum wage is what the company pays, then minimum wage it is.

Why would that be the obvious alternative? The government would just do what many other companies do between union and non-union employees: pay similar wages for similar work and skills and benefits. And if I were the employee that is what I would demand/expect.

Is it fair? The union after all bargained and negotiated etc. and now the city, state, whoever knows what a pay range is. Well is it fair when a gas station raises and lower its prices based on what the station across the street does? Or must it be required to do market research etc. in order to change it prices?

Wages are determined in all sorts of way. The number one is "what the market allows" then there is "what is contractually required"/"what is negotiated" and a few others. But cities etc. have to compete with other cities or employees migrate away so they need to stay at least somewhat competitive. So

Tugg
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seb146
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:52 pm

VTKillarney1 wrote:
VTKillarney1 wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
THAT is unconstitutional. However, seb never said anything about being FORCED to work for minimum wage:



I don't see the word forced anywhere. And no...it's not "between the lines". My interpretation of this was stated above: pay union dues if you want to be a part of the collective bargaining. If not, then if minimum wage is what the company pays, then minimum wage it is.

He said “should . . . accept.” You may be right. He may have just been giving horrible advice. If that’s the case, I can see why he would be deathly afraid of going it on his own.


I would rather have a skilled negotiator getting everyone better benefits than going it alone and having the rug pulled out from under me in a year or two. Plus, working for a union, I would not have 24/7 to keep posting replies on an aviation forum. I would be too busy working to earn my keep.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
VTKillarney1
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:54 pm

And you are free to have the union do that. This is all about giving YOU the choice. The Dems simply don’t want you to have the ability to choose what is best for yourself.
 
seb146
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:39 pm

VTKillarney1 wrote:
And you are free to have the union do that. This is all about giving YOU the choice. The Dems simply don’t want you to have the ability to choose what is best for yourself.


And you righties want everyone to have union benefits without joining the unions. That is wrong.

When I was a child, I would read the story of the little red hen. It was a Little Golden Book. I think that story applies here. If you do not pay into a union, you should not reap the benefits.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
mham001
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:00 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
My interpretation of this was stated above: pay union dues if you want to be a part of the collective bargaining. If not, then if minimum wage is what the company pays, then minimum wage it is.


You might want to rethink that one.

Who do you think will have all the jobs by the end of the year?
Last edited by mham001 on Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:00 am

seb146 wrote:
And you righties want everyone to have union benefits without joining the unions.

Which unions benefits?

Also I think it would be good to compare compare benefits for public employees in states with and without union representation to see exactly what the differences are. And also within the same states the difference between public and private sector benefits. They will almost certainly be less/lower benefits but for what things and to what cost or saving to the public that must pay for the benefits.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
MikeDrop
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:03 am

seb146 wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
seb146 wrote:

And, yet, NRA still buys politicians.

That too is an issue.

Like I said: if a person does not want to belong to a union, they should not enjoy the benefits that come with union membership. That's like saying "I have a driver's licence and enough money to buy a Kia Soul, so I demand a Bentley and if I don't get a Bentley, I will sue."

Start a new thread if you want to debate the NRA. This is a good discussion about unions.

Mike Drop


Financial contributions to politicians. Unions, NRA, banks, big pharma, oil, Koch Bros. And who reaps the benefits? All you righties outraged when unions do exactly the same thing as your beloved NRA, banks, big pharma, oil, and Koch Bros. I wonder why that is? You don't mind when they all buy politicians but, heaven forbid unions do the exact same thing.

Since you have nothing worthwhile to contribute to the thread, Mike, I guess you agree that anyone who opts out of a union should also not enjoy union benefits.

I'm actually in support of unions for employees of for-profit private companies. I've paid many union dues over the years, and I felt that it was worth every penny. I won't cross a picket line of a private union unless it's an emergency.

I just don't support public employee unions.

Mike Drop
 
LMP737
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:39 am

MikeDrop wrote:
I'm actually in support of unions for employees of for-profit private companies. I've paid many union dues over the years, and I felt that it was worth every penny. I won't cross a picket line of a private union unless it's an emergency.


Really, what industry?

MikeDrop wrote:
I just don't support public employee unions.

Mike Drop


Why, because Fox News or talk radio told you you shouldn't?
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Mir
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:19 am

Tugger wrote:
Then don't grant the benefits to non-members. I don't have a problem with that.


But that's not legal. The benefits have to be granted to non-members as well.

Tugger wrote:
Why not allow multiple unions as Aesma noted? That would solve the problem completely.


There's nothing to stop the employees from setting that up if that's what they vote to do.

Tugger wrote:
And regarding seeking "nonunion employment, that is exactly what people are/were seeking. But they were not allowed to do that, in order to do the public service job they were compelled to fund the union.


As long as the union is compelled to bargain on their behalf, I don't see a problem with compelling the employees to pay the appropriate fee for such bargaining.

mham001 wrote:
Huh? Have you ever been to a union meeting?


Plenty of times. I'm always asked if I want to make a contribution to the union's political arm, and sometimes I do. But that's completely voluntary on my part, and is a donation above and beyond my dues. My dues don't go to the political arm. That's been settled law for a long time.
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mham001
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:34 am

Mir wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Huh? Have you ever been to a union meeting?


Plenty of times. I'm always asked if I want to make a contribution to the union's political arm, and sometimes I do. But that's completely voluntary on my part, and is a donation above and beyond my dues. My dues don't go to the political arm. That's been settled law for a long time.


I recommend you reread Citizens United v. FEC.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:35 am

Mir wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Then don't grant the benefits to non-members. I don't have a problem with that.


But that's not legal. The benefits have to be granted to non-members as well.

I am not saying don't offer any benefits. I am saying the union doesn't have to or the benefits can be different.

Mir wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Why not allow multiple unions as Aesma noted? That would solve the problem completely.


There's nothing to stop the employees from setting that up if that's what they vote to do.

My guess is that the entrenched unions previously would have reacted vigorously to reject that. I can't say that I ever heard the option being available. I also suspect that it would have been legislatively acted on too... previously. But that's just my thinking.

Mir wrote:
Tugger wrote:
And regarding seeking "nonunion employment, that is exactly what people are/were seeking. But they were not allowed to do that, in order to do the public service job they were compelled to fund the union.


As long as the union is compelled to bargain on their behalf, I don't see a problem with compelling the employees to pay the appropriate fee for such bargaining.

As I said, then don't negotiate for them. Let the state deal with what they want to offer "non-union" employees.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Mir
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:37 am

mham001 wrote:
Mir wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Huh? Have you ever been to a union meeting?


Plenty of times. I'm always asked if I want to make a contribution to the union's political arm, and sometimes I do. But that's completely voluntary on my part, and is a donation above and beyond my dues. My dues don't go to the political arm. That's been settled law for a long time.


I recommend you reread Citizens United v. FEC.


That dealt only with what unions can spend money on, and not how they get the money. The prohibition on dues being used for such things remains, and was in fact strengthened in Knox vs. SEIU 1000, which was decided two years after Citizens United.


Tugger wrote:
As I said, then don't negotiate for them. Let the state deal with what they want to offer "non-union" employees.


Again, this is not legal. If the employees have decided, though the union, on an exclusive representation agreement, the union must negotiate for everybody.
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mham001
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:26 pm

Mir wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Mir wrote:


Plenty of times. I'm always asked if I want to make a contribution to the union's political arm, and sometimes I do. But that's completely voluntary on my part, and is a donation above and beyond my dues. My dues don't go to the political arm. That's been settled law for a long time.


I recommend you reread Citizens United v. FEC.


That dealt only with what unions can spend money on, and not how they get the money. The prohibition on dues being used for such things remains, and was in fact strengthened in Knox vs. SEIU 1000, which was decided two years after Citizens United.


You should reread that too. Knox vs. SEIU 1000 only applies to non-members.

Your claim that dues cannot be spent on political activities is still false, and it always was - with limitations. I know because my union routinely did it, although that was long ago.

Prior to Citizens United, the funds that unions collected from union dues could not go to political spending that expressly advocated for the election or defeat of a candidate. That funding could, however, still go to other “political activities.” These include informational and educational materials that are distributed to members.

Under Citizens United, unions can take member dues and spend the money on materials in support or in opposition to a candidate for office. This is problematic because union members are not asked for permission before this money is spent, and it is often difficult to ask for a refund.


https://www.unionfacts.com/article/poli ... -spending/

Thinking about that, this argument is amusing. I know in my state, the teacher's union has a long history of openly supporting political causes with huge amounts of money, and teachers complaining about it, this is not even debatable..

You've been duped by your people in charge - like most union members have. A few smart guys leading the dumb and apathetic.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:15 pm

Mir wrote:
Tugger wrote:
As I said, then don't negotiate for them. Let the state deal with what they want to offer "non-union" employees.


Again, this is not legal. If the employees have decided, though the union, on an exclusive representation agreement, the union must negotiate for everybody.

Ummm.... OK...then yes, of course you can set it up to be illegal if it is "exclusive". But it does not have to be that way. Ego it is not illegal (unless you set it up in a manner that makes it illegal).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
mham001
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:43 pm

Tugger wrote:
Mir wrote:
Tugger wrote:
As I said, then don't negotiate for them. Let the state deal with what they want to offer "non-union" employees.


Again, this is not legal. If the employees have decided, though the union, on an exclusive representation agreement, the union must negotiate for everybody.

Ummm.... OK...then yes, of course you can set it up to be illegal if it is "exclusive". But it does not have to be that way. Ego it is not illegal (unless you set it up in a manner that makes it illegal).

Tugg


Just as the devil's advocate, wouldn't your proposal actually be of benefit primarily to the union while detrimental to workers? Why should the state do such a thing using taxpayer money and what is to prevent them from seeing the benefits of the non-union workers and just phase out the unions? I don't think proponents of this idea are thinking it through.

Anyway, in some, (many?) states, such as California, all non-union public employees are covered by the contract - state law, although there are allowances to collect the cost of negotiating and administering the contract..
 
910A
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:22 pm

Wow, this guy (Janus) is one piece of work. Here is his op-ed in the Washington Post. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... ba6321ae9d

This guy is 65, so he is going to be laughing each month when he get's his retirement check after betraying his fellow employees. These are the benefits that he got from his union: ( http://labornotes.org/2018/05/i-work-ma ... rong-union)

1) because of the union his position hasn't been out-sourced yet. (apparently he didn't do so well in the short time he was in the private sector)
2) he earned $17K in step raises that the union had negotiate. Probably wouldn't have got anything in the private sector doing the same job.
3)The union has protected his health care insurance cost. Ask anyone in the private sector who that is going.
4)The union has protected his pension. Not many people in the private sector gets a pension anymore.
Wouldn't want to be this guy when he goes back to his position at his work site.

All over $45 a month.
 
VTKillarney1
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:50 pm

Again, nobody is taking the right to be in a union away. If you want to keep your union, you can keep your union.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:19 am

910A wrote:
1) because of the union his position hasn't been out-sourced yet. (apparently he didn't do so well in the short time he was in the private sector)
2) he earned $17K in step raises that the union had negotiate. Probably wouldn't have got anything in the private sector doing the same job.
3)The union has protected his health care insurance cost. Ask anyone in the private sector who that is going.
4)The union has protected his pension. Not many people in the private sector gets a pension anymore.
Wouldn't want to be this guy when he goes back to his position at his work site.

All over $45 a month.

As you note, the private sector doesn't and can't afford this level of benefits. Why is it OK for the public sector to do so? If you are not at risk for safety issues and also not competing with the private sector for jobs and benefits, why are they being allowed?

Tugg
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:02 pm

The Gold Plated Health Care for State, Federal, and local Govt. workers... That I, as a taxpayer pay for --- Not fair.
Health care for all, instead of great health care for some. I'd rather have affordable basic healthcare for all than expensive complex health care for the few. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. So tough sh*t to those that think they've are winners in the "Health Care Lottery."
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mham001
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:25 pm

George Will had a good piece on this last week. His point was we allow public-employee unions to elect the same politicians they will face during bargaining negotiations. How cozy (corrupt) can you get?
 
910A
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:54 pm

Tugger wrote:
As you note, the private sector doesn't and can't afford this level of benefits. Why is it OK for the public sector to do so? If you are not at risk for safety issues and also not competing with the private sector for jobs and benefits, why are they being allowed?

Tugg


Who says the private sector can't afford this level of benefits? Is it because they just chose not to or would they rather dump some of the cost on government services like food stamps, medical?
 
seb146
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:26 pm

mham001 wrote:
George Will had a good piece on this last week. His point was we allow public-employee unions to elect the same politicians they will face during bargaining negotiations. How cozy (corrupt) can you get?


That is not how I read it. The way I read it, he thinks it is fine for private corporations to buy politicians but unions should not buy politicians.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:06 am

seb146 wrote:
mham001 wrote:
George Will had a good piece on this last week. His point was we allow public-employee unions to elect the same politicians they will face during bargaining negotiations. How cozy (corrupt) can you get?


That is not how I read it. The way I read it, he thinks it is fine for private corporations to buy politicians but unions should not buy politicians.



Well said. That sums it up perfectly.
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LMP737
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:48 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
I'm actually in support of unions for employees of for-profit private companies. I've paid many union dues over the years, and I felt that it was worth every penny. I won't cross a picket line of a private union unless it's an emergency.

I just don't support public employee unions.

Mike Drop


But you'll vote to cut your own throat. Because that's what you are doing as a union member when you vote republican. Why, I don't know. Maybe it's the three "g" that you are more concerned about. That being god, guns and gays.

It's rather apparent you have taken the bait hook line and sinker. Someone feeds you a line about how bad public sector unions are and you believed every word. Not realizing of course this is all incremental and that they are coming after you next. If you doubt me why don't you look up HR 785 and tell me how that little piece of legislation is good for you. I'm saying you should look it up because I bet you haven't heard of this.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
LMP737
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:08 am

mham001 wrote:
George Will had a good piece on this last week. His point was we allow public-employee unions to elect the same politicians they will face during bargaining negotiations. How cozy (corrupt) can you get?


No more crazy than corporations lining the pockets of politicians who will regulate and/or award contracts to.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:42 pm

Dogman wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Unions should be able to negotiate a closed shop with management, however.

I realize this is a public union topic, but be careful to transfer this logic to the private sector. There are distinct differences although in neither case should it ever be a matter of the law enforcing a union shop across the board.

As far as I know in Germany you cannot have a closed union shop. But there are other provisions to make sure that the labour force has bargaining power. A company has to allocate some board sits to labor representatives, usually to unions.


That is correct. No one can be forced to sign a contract with anyone. There are no closed Shops, You don't even have to be a Union member.There can be severa unions competing woith each other and the elections are free. Anyone working ion that Company can run for a seat in the workers council. PLCs have to allocate half of the seats in the suoervision board to workers representatives, usually the reps are delegated by the unions but independents can get a seat as well.

Bit complicated but working very well. One of the reasons of the strong German economy.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
windy95
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Re: Compelled employee fees to Public Unions found illegal

Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:38 pm

It was the right decision. But it seems that many on here cannot see the difference between public and private unions and keep trying to weave the arguments together to make a point. Stick to public sector unions when discussing the decision.
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