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Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:40 pm
by cargolex
Dutchy wrote:

I applauded anyone whom strives for a better world, anyone whom rises up against undemocratic trends, anyone whom dare to speak out or minorities. That is not the issue, calling them Nazi's will only shift the discussion away from its core and with the Trump administration the core is rotten, no need to convince me of that.


Fair enough.

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:00 pm
by VTKillarney1
No, they aren’t fascists. Fascists wanted the government to control everything. Trump is doing just the opposite. Regulations are dropping like flies under a Trump.

If you are going to make a comparison, at least know what you are comparing.

Even VOX, who loves to engage in hyperbole, knows that you are wrong.
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/1 ... -democracy

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:07 pm
by MikeDrop
cargolex wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
cargolex wrote:

As a Jewish American with relatives murdered by the Nazis, the the comparison is entirely appropriate.


Godwin's law applies here. Especially if you have relatives (relatives must be a loose term since it happened around 75years ago) you have lost to the Nazi's killing machine, you should not make this comparison. It will lead to nothing and only will alienate people. Trump administration has so many things wrong with it you can just point those out and leave it with that. That is a friendly advice.


You know I guess it must not matter that much because it happened 75 years ago. And the majority of those Holocaust survivors who I met growing up are are dead now, so I guess it doesn't matter anymore, right?

When is it appropriate to point out that this is where we are headed? When the "president" praises neo-Nazis and makes them key parts of his staff? When politicans are inspired by the "president" to run on openly ethno-nationalist platforms? When members of the administration advocate openly and without compunction for ethno-nationalist actions?
The comparison is apt. They are fascists. They may not carry the name "Nazi" on their name badges, but that's who they are. And we should speak out clearly and forcefully about it while we still can.

"ethno-nationalist platforms"?

This is a new term - care to explain? And if you go down the road that controlling the US Border is somehow "ethno-nationalist" then you can save yourself the time. Reclassifying something that every US administration has done for the last 50+years as somehow new and evil is just not going to be taken seriously. Additionally, classifying security measures that are focused on the very real threat of terrorism that were put in place by the previous 2 US administrations as new and evil will also be ridiculed.

Hitler wrote Mien Kampf while he was in prison for trying to overthrow the government. In that evil book he described his hate and plan for all to see. Where is the comparable actions from Trump? Is the Art of the Deal somehow a racist and evil handbook for the takeover of the world?


Mike Drop

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:13 pm
by Dutchy
MikeDrop wrote:
Hitler wrote Mien Kampf while he was in prison for trying to overthrow the government. In that evil book he described his hate and plan for all to see. Where is the comparable actions from Trump? Is the Art of the Deal somehow a racist and evil handbook for the takeover of the world?


My struggle was indeed written by Adolf Hitler, the Art of the Deal wasn't written by Trump. In fact the ghostwriter - Tony Schwartz - struggles with it. He did a nice presentation in the Oxford Union, worth to watch, for Trump supports or Trump haters, it tells a lot about the men Trump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxF_CDDJ0YI

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:17 pm
by VTKillarney1
Imagine being so devastated over Hillary’s loss that you have to delude yourself into believing that Trump is a Nazi?

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:23 pm
by Dutchy
VTKillarney1 wrote:
Imagine being so devastated over Hillary’s loss that you have to delude yourself into believing that Trump is a Nazi?


:roll:

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:28 pm
by cargolex
VTKillarney1 wrote:
No, they aren’t fascists. Fascists wanted the government to control everything. Trump is doing just the opposite. Regulations are dropping like flies under a Trump.


Just because you've convinced yourself that you are not a fascist (you certainly seem to cast about for ways to make yourself less culpable and to deny the obvious) doesn't make it so.

If you don't like being called a fascist, well, we could be PC about it. But I thought you didn't like people being PC?

VTKillarney1 wrote:
Imagine being so devastated over Hillary’s loss that you have to delude yourself into believing that Trump is a Nazi?


I'm devastated at our country's long-term decline, which is entirely the fault of persons such as yourself. Who are Fascists.

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:32 pm
by seahawk
Long term decline when they choice was between Trump and crooked Hillary?

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:36 pm
by cargolex
MikeDrop wrote:
Where is the comparable actions from Trump?


Maybe you just don't know Donald John Trump very well. Although, as in law, ignorance is really no defense.

Having watched him flail around now for more than 30 years, I can say with pretty much 100% confidence that he is a deeply bigoted man who is easily influenced by the circle of deeply bigoted people around him, and twas ever thus.

I don't think Trump is bent on genocide, but he also has no conscience, and no qualms at all about doing terrible things to advantage himself. If he felt that it was good for him to murder millions of people, he'd do it without question. He's already suggested that he could "put 25 million Mexican illegals on airplanes to Japan," among other things, and hired and associated with obvious White Supremacists, and enacted an agenda that is more or less straight out of the White Supremacist handbook, to be fulfilled by people who are sympathetic to White Supremacy.

When Neo Nazis killed somebody last year, he found he had no problem with that. Because he has no conscience. We could go into his long history of racist behavior from "that Mexican Judge" to Birtherism to the Central Park Five to housing discrimination. Or we could talk about his attempts to lash out at the LGBT community or at Brown people. He talks alot about illegal immigrants - but always focuses on the Brown ones.

Lacking a conscience or morals doesn't make you tough. It makes you a sociopath.

You can talk about defending the border or whatever business you've convinced yourself is good about this situation, but this is hardly "secret" information. He's a bigoted cretin who'll almost certainly irreparably damage our country if not actually kill people - which is still a real possibility.

That you defend this makes you COMPLICIT.

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:43 pm
by cargolex
seahawk wrote:
Long term decline when they choice was between Trump and crooked Hillary?


To be fair, Trump is only a symptom, not the cause. It wasn't Trump who invented the use of White Identity politics or Trickle Down Economics to bamboozle American Conservatives.

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:17 pm
by MikeDrop
cargolex wrote:
but he also has no conscience, and no qualms at all about doing terrible things to advantage himself. If he felt that it was good for him to murder millions of people, he'd do it without question. ......

Lacking a conscience or morals doesn't make you tough. It makes you a sociopath.


Wow - you are describing exactly the way that republicans feel about Hillary Clinton and Barak Obama. While the deaths toll for their failed Arab spring revolution may not have been in the millions, it certainly was in the thousands.

The failed and ill begotten Fast and Furious gun running scheme by Eric Holder also comes to mind.

You are never going to win an argument based on morals when Hillary and Bill Clinton are your standard for moral superiority.

My point is that the words you are using and logical eventual conflicts that will be the result of your endulgence in hate mongering are only going to take the country to a bad place.

Mike Drop

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:30 pm
by cargolex
MikeDrop wrote:
Wow - you are describing exactly the way that republicans feel about Hillary Clinton and Barak Obama. While the deaths toll for their failed Arab spring revolution may not have been in the millions, it certainly was in the thousands.

The failed and ill begotten Fast and Furious gun running scheme by Eric Holder also comes to mind.

You are never going to win an argument based on morals when Hillary and Bill Clinton are your standard for moral superiority.

My point is that the words you are using and logical eventual conflicts that will be the result of your endulgence in hate mongering are only going to take the country to a bad place.

Mike Drop


So basically what you have is whataboutism, mixed with a side of lies.

Of course, much of your accusation here is simply made up. Lies to make yourself feel better? As if Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton planned the Arab Spring because somewhere, in that demented mind of yours that happened, though in fact it did not happen here in the real world?

I have no particular love for the Clintons but after 20 years of investigations if you haven't found anything it's because there's nothing to find other than a giant right-wing noise machine who's purpose it is to make you feel better about lying to yourself and sell you ads and products while your eyes are glued to it.

But yeah, feel free to lecture me about hate mongering while you support an authoritarian regime that keeps children in cages and views every person who's not White, Straight, and Christian (and even a few who are) through legal crosshairs while simultaneously trashing the post-ww2 consensus and America's role in the world as a defender of democracies since WW1.

It's fine. Have your lies. I'm sure they taste good.

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:51 pm
by Jouhou
cargolex wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
cargolex wrote:

As a Jewish American with relatives murdered by the Nazis, the the comparison is entirely appropriate.


Godwin's law applies here. Especially if you have relatives (relatives must be a loose term since it happened around 75years ago) you have lost to the Nazi's killing machine, you should not make this comparison. It will lead to nothing and only will alienate people. Trump administration has so many things wrong with it you can just point those out and leave it with that. That is a friendly advice.


You know I guess it must not matter that much because it happened 75 years ago. And the majority of those Holocaust survivors who I met growing up are are dead now, so I guess it doesn't matter anymore, right?

When is it appropriate to point out that this is where we are headed? When the "president" praises neo-Nazis and makes them key parts of his staff? When politicans are inspired by the "president" to run on openly ethno-nationalist platforms? When members of the administration advocate openly and without compunction for ethno-nationalist actions?

The comparison is apt. They are fascists. They may not carry the name "Nazi" on their name badges, but that's who they are. And we should speak out clearly and forcefully about it while we still can.


Yeah, Trump supporters ARE fascists, even if only a small amount of them identify as neo nazis. I'm sorry, I'm not going to tip toe around offending these people. They need to own up to the values they support.

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:54 pm
by MikeDrop
cargolex wrote:
MikeDrop wrote:
Wow - you are describing exactly the way that republicans feel about Hillary Clinton and Barak Obama. While the deaths toll for their failed Arab spring revolution may not have been in the millions, it certainly was in the thousands.

The failed and ill begotten Fast and Furious gun running scheme by Eric Holder also comes to mind.

You are never going to win an argument based on morals when Hillary and Bill Clinton are your standard for moral superiority.

My point is that the words you are using and logical eventual conflicts that will be the result of your endulgence in hate mongering are only going to take the country to a bad place.

Mike Drop


So basically what you have is whataboutism, mixed with a side of lies.

Of course, much of your accusation here is simply made up. Lies to make yourself feel better? As if Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton planned the Arab Spring because somewhere, in that demented mind of yours that happened, though in fact it did not happen here in the real world?

I have no particular love for the Clintons but after 20 years of investigations if you haven't found anything it's because there's nothing to find other than a giant right-wing noise machine who's purpose it is to make you feel better about lying to yourself and sell you ads and products while your eyes are glued to it.

But yeah, feel free to lecture me about hate mongering while you support an authoritarian regime that keeps children in cages and views every person who's not White, Straight, and Christian (and even a few who are) through legal crosshairs while simultaneously trashing the post-ww2 consensus and America's role in the world as a defender of democracies since WW1.

It's fine. Have your lies. I'm sure they taste good.

Seems like there really is no chance of common ground with you so let's agree to disagree and move on.

Have a nice day!

Mike Drop

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:18 pm
by EA CO AS
cargolex wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
cargolex wrote:

As a Jewish American with relatives murdered by the Nazis, the the comparison is entirely appropriate.


Godwin's law applies here. Especially if you have relatives (relatives must be a loose term since it happened around 75years ago) you have lost to the Nazi's killing machine, you should not make this comparison. It will lead to nothing and only will alienate people. Trump administration has so many things wrong with it you can just point those out and leave it with that. That is a friendly advice.


You know I guess it must not matter that much because it happened 75 years ago. And the majority of those Holocaust survivors who I met growing up are are dead now, so I guess it doesn't matter anymore, right?

When is it appropriate to point out that this is where we are headed? When the "president" praises neo-Nazis and makes them key parts of his staff? When politicans are inspired by the "president" to run on openly ethno-nationalist platforms? When members of the administration advocate openly and without compunction for ethno-nationalist actions?

The comparison is apt. They are fascists. They may not carry the name "Nazi" on their name badges, but that's who they are. And we should speak out clearly and forcefully about it while we still can.


Image

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:25 pm
by 910A
VTKillarney1 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
The deficit wend down under both Clinton and Obama and up under GWB and tRump.

Is there a reason why you are posting falsehoods?
https://www.thebalance.com/national-deb ... ma-3306293


The budget deficit and the national debt are two different animals.

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:31 pm
by Dutchy
Such a devided country, btter split up the blue states from the red states and get it over with. No unity will ever come back.

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:35 pm
by cargolex
[quote="EA CO AS"][/quote]

I'm sorry being called out for supporting fascism is inconvenient and upsetting. Perhaps you should rethink your support for it.

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:59 pm
by seahawk
cargolex wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Long term decline when they choice was between Trump and crooked Hillary?


To be fair, Trump is only a symptom, not the cause. It wasn't Trump who invented the use of White Identity politics or Trickle Down Economics to bamboozle American Conservatives.


But they only won because the Democrats did run with one of the worst candidates imaginable.

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:23 pm
by cargolex
seahawk wrote:
But they only won because the Democrats did run with one of the worst candidates imaginable.


I'd dispute that characterization even if she wasn't my favorite candidate. But let's leave that aside for now, because as awful as the current situation is, we didn't suddenly arrive at it in 2016.

Conservatives decided to rip-up the world that had worked really well for us starting as early as 1968, first by appealing to the alienated component of the former New Deal coalition - Rural White Conservatives who above all viewed racial superiority as their number one issue. The alliance between the New Dealers and the Dixiecrats was always a tense one, and as soon as the Civil Rights and Voting Rights acts were passed they bolted right into the arms of Republicans, courtesy of folks like Harry Dent and later Lee Atwater, who used dog whistle politics to attract them. It's why St. Reagan's 1980 campaign began at the Neshoba County Fair with a speech about "states rights," which has always been code for White Supremacy.

Along the way they picked up radical Religious Zealots like Paul Weyrich and Jerry Falwell and Ralph Reed, who cloak White and Christian supremacy in the language of scripture.

They also picked up folks like Arthur Laffer, who gave us the "trickle down" theory, and deregulators (who, to be fair, existed on both sides of the aisle from around 1976 to 2008) too. We've been saddled with the effects of Trickle Down and Debt spending ever since - problems which are always exacerbated by Conservative control. We simply don't have the resources to run the country properly anymore and every time we try, we're greeted with a "we're taxed so much" by one of the least taxed populations in any industrialized country. Nobody likes taxes. But nobody in Germany would exchange their excellent roads and universal healthcare for a hundred extra euros at the end of the month.

Then came the scorched earth tactics of Newt Gingrich, and then voter suppression, and finally, the total reluctance to govern the country if a Democrat were President, or possibly if a Person of Color were President. Instead of trying to work together to get part of what they wanted, Conservatives decided the President was from Kenya and also a communist/marxist/fantasy whatever.

Deregulation gave us 2008.

Finally, there was the stealing of a Supreme Court Seat, and further voter suppression, and the suppression of any attempt to do something about foreign meddling in our elections.

All at the hands of American Conservatives.

It's way beyond Clinton Vs. Trump.

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:16 pm
by VTKillarney1
cargolex wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:


I'm sorry being called out for supporting fascism is inconvenient and upsetting. Perhaps you should rethink your support for it.

Do you actually have facts to contribute rather than unsupported conclusory statements?

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:25 pm
by cargolex
VTKillarney1 wrote:
Do you actually have facts to contribute rather than unsupported conclusory statements?


Since when do facts matter to you?

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:48 pm
by jdstJD
cargolex wrote:
seahawk wrote:
But they only won because the Democrats did run with one of the worst candidates imaginable.


I'd dispute that characterization even if she wasn't my favorite candidate. But let's leave that aside for now, because as awful as the current situation is, we didn't suddenly arrive at it in 2016.

Conservatives decided to rip-up the world that had worked really well for us starting as early as 1968, first by appealing to the alienated component of the former New Deal coalition - Rural White Conservatives who above all viewed racial superiority as their number one issue. The alliance between the New Dealers and the Dixiecrats was always a tense one, and as soon as the Civil Rights and Voting Rights acts were passed they bolted right into the arms of Republicans, courtesy of folks like Harry Dent and later Lee Atwater, who used dog whistle politics to attract them. It's why St. Reagan's 1980 campaign began at the Neshoba County Fair with a speech about "states rights," which has always been code for White Supremacy.

Along the way they picked up radical Religious Zealots like Paul Weyrich and Jerry Falwell and Ralph Reed, who cloak White and Christian supremacy in the language of scripture.

They also picked up folks like Arthur Laffer, who gave us the "trickle down" theory, and deregulators (who, to be fair, existed on both sides of the aisle from around 1976 to 2008) too. We've been saddled with the effects of Trickle Down and Debt spending ever since - problems which are always exacerbated by Conservative control. We simply don't have the resources to run the country properly anymore and every time we try, we're greeted with a "we're taxed so much" by one of the least taxed populations in any industrialized country. Nobody likes taxes. But nobody in Germany would exchange their excellent roads and universal healthcare for a hundred extra euros at the end of the month.

Then came the scorched earth tactics of Newt Gingrich, and then voter suppression, and finally, the total reluctance to govern the country if a Democrat were President, or possibly if a Person of Color were President. Instead of trying to work together to get part of what they wanted, Conservatives decided the President was from Kenya and also a communist/marxist/fantasy whatever.

Deregulation gave us 2008.

Finally, there was the stealing of a Supreme Court Seat, and further voter suppression, and the suppression of any attempt to do something about foreign meddling in our elections.

All at the hands of American Conservatives.

It's way beyond Clinton Vs. Trump.


Wow. This was so informative. Thank you for this post.

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:27 pm
by seb146
Dutchy wrote:
Such a devided country, btter split up the blue states from the red states and get it over with. No unity will ever come back.


I would love to see that. And let them take their debt with them. No taxes, no income, and out of control spending. How many of those states will BEG to come back to the "liberal" nation?

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:52 pm
by VTKillarney1
cargolex wrote:
VTKillarney1 wrote:
Do you actually have facts to contribute rather than unsupported conclusory statements?


Since when do facts matter to you?

Still no facts. Gotcha.

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:02 pm
by mham001
cargolex wrote:
So basically what you have is whataboutism, mixed with a side of lies.

Of course, much of your accusation here is simply made up. Lies to make yourself feel better? As if Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton planned the Arab Spring because somewhere, in that demented mind of yours that happened, though in fact it did not happen here in the real world?
.


Pretty convenient to forget all about Libya and the massive suffering STILL going on today because of Obama/Hillary and European intervention, while lambasting Trump supporters for things that that you think will happen but actually haven't happened.

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:03 pm
by mham001
seb146 wrote:
I would love to see that. And let them take their debt with them. No taxes, no income, and out of control spending. How many of those states will BEG to come back to the "liberal" nation?


Is this where you pull out that bogus wallethub report again?

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:04 pm
by mham001
del

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:35 pm
by seb146
mham001 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I would love to see that. And let them take their debt with them. No taxes, no income, and out of control spending. How many of those states will BEG to come back to the "liberal" nation?


Is this where you pull out that bogus wallethub report again?


Sorry I could not find the link on InfoWars....

Re: Supremely Screwed

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:47 pm
by qf789
Thread has gone off topic and will be locked