c933103
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EU attitude on death penalty.

Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:52 pm

Recently Japan executed the person who was behind the Tokyo metro sarin gas attack. After the execution, ambassador from various European countries to Japan have co-authored a letter, saying that they understand the incident is special to Japan and
Japanese people, however point out that death penalty have no effect on stopping crimes and mistakes in ruling cannot be corrected in the future, therefore strongly oppose the use of death penalty in all situations. Amnesty International have also criticized the use of death penalty as a ultimate denial on human right.

But looking at those arguments against death penalty, is it just me that the supposed secular countries of European are being a little bit religious here? As it seems like it is part of the religion of modern European that believe it is bad for human to kill other humans for the crimes they have committed, but the stance is based on what European believed instead of something that would be agreed by most of the humanity. As I have read in comments about the news, the "lack of inhibitory effect" for death penalty is a non-reason when it come to whether to keep death penalty or not, rather it is just normal that people have to paid their price if they killed someone, and comments also pointed out that European countries have higher crime/murder rate than Japan and tend to approve killing suspects on the scene instead of trying the best effort to take them to juridical trials. In other words, is the EU's position on death penalty a bit too religious?
 
ozglobal
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:00 pm

It's not just the EU attitude to the Death Penalty, it's the conviction of all developed countries (including Australia, NZ, Canada, etc) who have long since moved beyond state sponsored execution as a means of justice. The US is ALONE in its conviction that killing its citizens who are convicted of crimes is to the greater good of society. This Japanese example is an extreme counter example of the trend to suspend the death penalty in practice in Japan.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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Aesma
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:13 pm

Is humanism a religion ?

There are plenty of arguments against the death penalty, but I think the main one the EU has is indeed moral, that the state can't preach that killing is wrong, but practise it itself.

As for killing perpetrators in the act, I'm not sure what you're talking about exactly. A terrorist shooting at people, sure, shoot back, what else are you going to do ?

The other day a policeman shot and killed a guy in Nantes, who was trying to escape a sure arrest by driving his car backwards (there was a warrant for him). In that case the policeman seems to be in the wrong and is facing charges. In plenty of countries that shot would have been deemed legitimate.
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Richard28
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:36 pm

c933103 wrote:
In other words, is the EU's position on death penalty a bit too religious?


No, nothing to do with religion whatsoever.

Its about advancement of society, humanity, and realising that mere retribution does not stop such hideous crimes.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:56 pm

Just humanity and common sense. The death penalty is just senseless killing by the institution of the state. It is indeed outlawed by the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms (counsel of Europe, not the EU), since 1950 or so and is based on the United Nations's universal declaration of human rights (1948).

c933103 wrote:
and tend to approve killing suspects on the scene instead of trying the best effort to take them to juridical trials.


In general in Europe people can defend themselves, just like everywhere else, so can the police of course. The police can shoot someone if he tried to escape, if he poses danger to others or if the runner is suspect of a very serious crime and refuses to stop. But that is not different from elsewhere. In the Netherlands, if a policeman even draws his gun, there will be an investigation to the necessity of it.


The only reason I can think of which has some merit is: an eye for an eye, but in the end that makes everyone blind.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:03 pm

ozglobal wrote:
It's not just the EU attitude to the Death Penalty, it's the conviction of all developed countries (including Australia, NZ, Canada, etc) who have long since moved beyond state sponsored execution as a means of justice. The US is ALONE in its conviction that killing its citizens who are convicted of crimes is to the greater good of society. This Japanese example is an extreme counter example of the trend to suspend the death penalty in practice in Japan.


There’s a sizable movement in NZ to reintroduce the death penalty, it’s been growing for years, the problem is we signed some daft treaties which say we can’t bring it back.

Some crimes are just so horrible that the person committing them doesn’t deserve to continue breathing, the Utøya killer being prime example of one of them.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:51 pm

I’m not a proponent of the death penalty, but Luka Magnotta makes me struggle.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luka_Magnotta
 
c933103
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:54 pm

ozglobal wrote:
It's not just the EU attitude to the Death Penalty, it's the conviction of all developed countries (including Australia, NZ, Canada, etc) who have long since moved beyond state sponsored execution as a means of justice. The US is ALONE in its conviction that killing its citizens who are convicted of crimes is to the greater good of society. This Japanese example is an extreme counter example of the trend to suspend the death penalty in practice in Japan.

- Australia, NZ, Canada, etc are all countries from European civilization and share same a similar set of value.
- Comparatively, in various poll that are done in countries like Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, China at various different time, number of respondents who support the use of death penalties are usually somewhere between 50% and 85% with the number of person firmly against death penalty in the range of 10-20% in most of these polls
Aesma wrote:
Is humanism a religion ?

There are plenty of arguments against the death penalty, but I think the main one the EU has is indeed moral, that the state can't preach that killing is wrong, but practise it itself.

Humanism is not, but who is to define what is humanitarian? Is it humanitarian or good for morality of the society if death is not to be used as or not to be seen as a penalty?
Aesma wrote:
As for killing perpetrators in the act, I'm not sure what you're talking about exactly. A terrorist shooting at people, sure, shoot back, what else are you going to do ?

The other day a policeman shot and killed a guy in Nantes, who was trying to escape a sure arrest by driving his car backwards (there was a warrant for him). In that case the policeman seems to be in the wrong and is facing charges. In plenty of countries that shot would have been deemed legitimate.

When situation allows, in some places there are instructions like even in incidents like mass killing and such, whenever possible, police should disable the perpetrator by shooting at their arms and legs and avoid shooting the person death at the scene.
Richard28 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
In other words, is the EU's position on death penalty a bit too religious?


No, nothing to do with religion whatsoever.

Its about advancement of society, humanity, and realising that mere retribution does not stop such hideous crimes.

Then again,
- Isn't it religious to decide abolition of death penalty is more advanced/humanitarian than otherwise?
- The goal here is not to stop crimes but just to give the person what they deserve, therefore even if it is useless, it still aren't making the death penalty any less justified
Dutchy wrote:
Just humanity and common sense. The death penalty is just senseless killing by the institution of the state. It is indeed outlawed by the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms (counsel of Europe, not the EU), since 1950 or so and is based on the United Nations's universal declaration of human rights (1948).

- From the point of view of various individuals, justice system is supposed to be a senseless delivery of just to the public by the institution of the state. When killing is part of the equation for justice, then it make absolute sense for the state to delivery it.
- The UN declaration you signed did not said anything about death penalty. Indeed it said everyone have the right to life, liberty and security of person, however it is understood that these rights are not unlimited as there are also other measures in punitive system in all countries that utilize limitations in all these aspects as a form of punishment.
Dutchy wrote:
The only reason I can think of which has some merit is: an eye for an eye, but in the end that makes everyone blind.

If everyone play by the rule then it won't happen.
 
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Richard28
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:20 pm

c933103 wrote:
Then again,
- Isn't it religious to decide abolition of death penalty is more advanced/humanitarian than otherwise?

The last time I checked the death penalty was not a religion, so no, it is not.
c933103 wrote:
- The goal here is not to stop crimes but just to give the person what they deserve, therefore even if it is useless, it still aren't making the death penalty any less justified

So you endorse it because it effectively makes you feel better?

nice.
 
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scbriml
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:50 pm

c933103 wrote:
But looking at those arguments against death penalty, is it just me that the supposed secular countries of European are being a little bit religious here?


It's just you. :yes:

How do you draw the conclusion we're "a bit religious" about the death penalty in Europe? I'm of the view that the death penalty has no place in a modern society. Religion doesn't come in at all. :confused:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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dmg626
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:55 pm

scbriml wrote:
c933103 wrote:
But looking at those arguments against death penalty, is it just me that the supposed secular countries of European are being a little bit religious here?


It's just you. :yes:

How do you draw the conclusion we're "a bit religious" about the death penalty in Europe? I'm of the view that the death penalty has no place in a modern society. Religion doesn't come in at all. :confused:



The death penalty only applies to aborted fetuses, serial killers and killers in general need not worry, You will be treated civily
 
c933103
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:57 pm

scbriml wrote:
c933103 wrote:
But looking at those arguments against death penalty, is it just me that the supposed secular countries of European are being a little bit religious here?


It's just you. :yes:

How do you draw the conclusion we're "a bit religious" about the death penalty in Europe? I'm of the view that the death penalty has no place in a modern society. Religion doesn't come in at all. :confused:

I mean, the view that "life of the criminal should not be stripped by human no matter what the individual have committed" make it seems like there are some sort of believes that divined the life of each individual human
Richard28 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Then again,
- Isn't it religious to decide abolition of death penalty is more advanced/humanitarian than otherwise?

The last time I checked the death penalty was not a religion, so no, it is not.

see above
Richard28 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
- The goal here is not to stop crimes but just to give the person what they deserve, therefore even if it is useless, it still aren't making the death penalty any less justified

So you endorse it because it effectively makes you feel better?

nice.

Not just to individual but it also make the entire society feel better to see them getting their deserved end.
 
c933103
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:05 am

dmg626 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
c933103 wrote:
But looking at those arguments against death penalty, is it just me that the supposed secular countries of European are being a little bit religious here?


It's just you. :yes:

How do you draw the conclusion we're "a bit religious" about the death penalty in Europe? I'm of the view that the death penalty has no place in a modern society. Religion doesn't come in at all. :confused:



The death penalty only applies to aborted fetuses, serial killers and killers in general need not worry, You will be treated civily

abortion have no place in the discussion as fetus are not developed human forms and there are already numerous regulations in place in most countries against unreasonable abortion
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:40 am

c933103 wrote:
dmg626 wrote:
fetus are not developed human forms

I was going to go there, but methinks you forgot an adjective.
 
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Aesma
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:49 am

c933103 wrote:
When situation allows, in some places there are instructions like even in incidents like mass killing and such, whenever possible, police should disable the perpetrator by shooting at their arms and legs and avoid shooting the person death at the scene.


I'm not convinced that it's true. Either there isn't an imminent threat and negotiation is possible, or use of a taser or something like that. Or you use your gun and there is no "shooting in the legs" instruction possible because that might kill you just as well anyway.
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Classa64
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:57 am

VTKillarney wrote:
I’m not a proponent of the death penalty, but Luka Magnotta makes me struggle.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luka_Magnotta


My thoughts as well...
You can add Karla Homolka and Paul Bernardo to to that list
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mham001
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:28 am

c933103 wrote:
abortion have no place in the discussion as fetus are not developed human forms and there are already numerous regulations in place in most countries against unreasonable abortion


That is not necessarily true. In fact one of those "western" countries held up as paragons of human rights, Canada, by which it denounces the death penalty, has NO restrictions on late-term abortions (over 20 weeks), which is indeed a developed human form. I find that quite hypocritical. Certainly has more impact on society than eliminating a few murderers.
 
stratosphere
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:44 am

Classa64 wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
I’m not a proponent of the death penalty, but Luka Magnotta makes me struggle.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luka_Magnotta


My thoughts as well...
You can add Karla Homolka and Paul Bernardo to to that list


Well this is my point I watch forensic files I love that show. Just saw an episode of where a guy did only 11 years for murder. He gets out then follows a woman out of a bar and bumps her car and hits her in the head and rapes and murders her and there was evidence he did this to at least one more woman. The only reason I had misgivings about the death penalty is that our justice system has flaws. However, I think there are people in this world who walk among us that do not deserve to live among us. With the DNA and solid forensics we have today for someone who is guilty of the most heinous crimes and proven without a doubt I think we should execute and not 25 years of appeals either and not lethal injection. Bring back the electric chair 2 appeals max and execution within one year . But no death penalty for circumstantial cases it has to be no doubt and solid proof and DNA evidence.
 
stratosphere
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:49 am

VTKillarney wrote:
I’m not a proponent of the death penalty, but Luka Magnotta makes me struggle.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luka_Magnotta


Yeah and your Canadian justice system sentenced him to life in prison with no parole for 25 years? No at the very least it should be no parole PERIOD! This is the liberal justice system way of looking at sentencing .
 
tommy1808
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:21 am

stratosphere wrote:
No at the very least it should be no parole PERIOD! This is the liberal justice system way of looking at sentencing .


bullsh*t. This is human rights correctly being implemented by courts. Life imprisonment without *chance* of parole is a violation of human rights just as much as capital punishment.

There is exactly zero reasons to have an old criminal die of old age, cancer or what not in a cage, almost every criminal will reach a point in its life where they don´t pose a threat to anyone anymore. Letting them die outside is also cheaper.

Many places that aren´t exectly liberal don´t have life imprisonment w/o chance of parole, by far the most countries don´t have capital punishment.

Those countries that still have either don´t understand or don´t care about human rights.

c933103 wrote:
But looking at those arguments against death penalty, is it just me that the supposed secular countries of European are being a little bit religious here?


The "Religion" is called "the rule of law", and countries that have capital punishment don´t have that.

Capital Punishment is the Religion in the room. We know it has no deterrence value, we know it costs more, we know it is severe punishment for innocent (you get to take my dad away, which is a crime against me, because my dad killed yours? What do i have to do with that? Why do i get punished?), we know it is fairly frequently applied to people that turn out innocent later, holding on to that outdated, barbaric and utterly incompatible with any notion of human rights. Pro capital punishment is a fundamentalist religion that gets people killed, anyone involved should be hunted down and brought to justice.

dmg626 wrote:
The death penalty only applies to aborted fetuses


bla bla. They are not sentenced to die, they are just not entitled to using a womans body as long as they please.

best regards
Thomas
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WIederling
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:59 am

Richard28 wrote:
Its about advancement of society, humanity, and realising that mere retribution does not stop such hideous crimes.


US society is more or less to a significant part stuck in ~~reformation times.
People in a diaspora tend to conserve their cultural background
from the time they moved away from the main group.

( that is why Erdogan needs the Turks vote from Germany. Stuck in the conservative 50ties )
Murphy is an optimist
 
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scbriml
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:09 am

c933103 wrote:
Not just to individual but it also make the entire society feel better to see them getting their deserved end.


Does that entire society feel better when they execute an innocent person?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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Redd
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:47 am

c933103 wrote:
Recently Japan executed the person who was behind the Tokyo metro sarin gas attack. After the execution, ambassador from various European countries to Japan have co-authored a letter, saying that they understand the incident is special to Japan and
Japanese people, however point out that death penalty have no effect on stopping crimes and mistakes in ruling cannot be corrected in the future, therefore strongly oppose the use of death penalty in all situations. Amnesty International have also criticized the use of death penalty as a ultimate denial on human right.

But looking at those arguments against death penalty, is it just me that the supposed secular countries of European are being a little bit religious here? As it seems like it is part of the religion of modern European that believe it is bad for human to kill other humans for the crimes they have committed, but the stance is based on what European believed instead of something that would be agreed by most of the humanity. As I have read in comments about the news, the "lack of inhibitory effect" for death penalty is a non-reason when it come to whether to keep death penalty or not, rather it is just normal that people have to paid their price if they killed someone, and comments also pointed out that European countries have higher crime/murder rate than Japan and tend to approve killing suspects on the scene instead of trying the best effort to take them to juridical trials. In other words, is the EU's position on death penalty a bit too religious?



NO offence, but maybe you should be questioning your own country with private for profit prisons, the highest incarceration rate in the world, the lowest reform rate in the developed world, and more executions take place in the USA than any other country save Iran, Saudi Arabia and China. Taking all that into consideration the USA is still one of the most dangerous and highest crime rate countries (actually the highest) in the developed world. 2nd place in mass shootings only to Mexico, which happens to be run by drug cartels, drug epidemics.. etc etc etc..... Glass house and all that my friend.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:42 am

Justifying something because it makes you feel better Vs logic, data and fair justice.

One sounds like a religion and the other not.

Fred
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VTKillarney
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:08 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
There is exactly zero reasons to have an old criminal die of old age, cancer or what not in a cage, almost every criminal will reach a point in its life where they don´t pose a threat to anyone anymore. Letting them die outside is also cheaper.

You are contradicting yourself here when you say that "almost every criminal" will reach a point were they don't pose a threat.

I am opposed to the death penalty in large part because there is the option for life in prison without parole.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:26 pm

stratosphere wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
I’m not a proponent of the death penalty, but Luka Magnotta makes me struggle.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luka_Magnotta


Yeah and your Canadian justice system sentenced him to life in prison with no parole for 25 years? No at the very least it should be no parole PERIOD! This is the liberal justice system way of looking at sentencing .


Do you want an effective human system or a system which feels good?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
Do you want an effective human system or a system which feels good?

Are they mutually exclusive?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:34 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
Do you want an effective human system or a system which feels good?

Are they mutually exclusive?


With a death penalty debate: yes.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
With a death penalty debate: yes.


:checkmark:
Human rights are binding to everyone or to no one. Murder is murder, state sponsored of private enterprise.

Can´t wait for the day to come that universal jurisdiction gets extended to everyone involved in carrying it out.

best regards
Thomas
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RetroRoo
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:32 pm

I'm a little taken aback that apparently not killing people is a European ideal.

I mean... who needs history when we have this thread?

As you were, A.net, as you were...

Jeeeezus.
 
c933103
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:37 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
But looking at those arguments against death penalty, is it just me that the supposed secular countries of European are being a little bit religious here?


The "Religion" is called "the rule of law", and countries that have capital punishment don´t have that.

What? When capital punishment is written into the law, and they're applied according to what's written, that's called rule of law.
tommy1808 wrote:
Capital Punishment is the Religion in the room. We know it has no deterrence value, we know it costs more, we know it is severe punishment for innocent (you get to take my dad away, which is a crime against me, because my dad killed yours? What do i have to do with that? Why do i get punished?), we know it is fairly frequently applied to people that turn out innocent later, holding on to that outdated, barbaric and utterly incompatible with any notion of human rights. Pro capital punishment is a fundamentalist religion that gets people killed, anyone involved should be hunted down and brought to justice.

Deterrence value is not the only reason why we have laws and punitive system. Costs isn't even a concern here and lifelong sentence will also cost a lot. It would affect the relatives of the criminal but the effect would be equal in other form of punishment, and in fact in these cases it can even help the relative of those families to clear their link with the criminal and prevent continually being linked to the crime in the future. It will also prevent murderer to pass down their possibly dangerous view to later generations and avoid their family from being seen as "better off than victims in those cases" and also send a clear signal to their descendent if they have any that one should be responsible to what they have did.

As for the possibility of innocent rules, that's why it takes really lengthy judicial process before someone are to be given death sentence in many countries. The system will never be perfect, however damages to those who are falsely accused wouldn't be difference even if the penalty was not a death penalty and thus that is not a ground to oppose death penalty.

tommy1808 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
No at the very least it should be no parole PERIOD! This is the liberal justice system way of looking at sentencing .


bullsh*t. This is human rights correctly being implemented by courts. Life imprisonment without *chance* of parole is a violation of human rights just as much as capital punishment.

There is exactly zero reasons to have an old criminal die of old age, cancer or what not in a cage, almost every criminal will reach a point in its life where they don´t pose a threat to anyone anymore. Letting them die outside is also cheaper.

Many places that aren´t exectly liberal don´t have life imprisonment w/o chance of parole, by far the most countries don´t have capital punishment.

Those countries that still have either don´t understand or don´t care about human rights.

In polls that I have mentioned before, some of them are asked in a way that if life imprisonment without chance of parole are introduced to replace death sentence, would you support the abolition of death sentence. About 60% people still say no, about 30% say it can be considered if life sentence without possibility of parole are introduced instead, and then the amount of people that support the removal of death penalty without introducing such system was in the range of single digit percent according to the polls.

Aesma wrote:
c933103 wrote:
When situation allows, in some places there are instructions like even in incidents like mass killing and such, whenever possible, police should disable the perpetrator by shooting at their arms and legs and avoid shooting the person death at the scene.


I'm not convinced that it's true. Either there isn't an imminent threat and negotiation is possible, or use of a taser or something like that. Or you use your gun and there is no "shooting in the legs" instruction possible because that might kill you just as well anyway.

Indeed the circumstances is different, like very few incidents in these countries actually involve gun even when the intention is mass murder, and that when inevitable polices will still shoot the perpetrator dead at the scene. But that's it.

scbriml wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Not just to individual but it also make the entire society feel better to see them getting their deserved end.


Does that entire society feel better when they execute an innocent person?

Obviously not, but regardless of methodology of implementing punitive system, you still can't get everything right, and falsely sending someone into life sentence is just about as destructive as falsely sending someone into death sentence. It's like saying should we stop giving guns to police jist because they might hurt bystanders when they're using guns to caught people.
flipdewaf wrote:
Justifying something because it makes you feel better Vs logic, data and fair justice.

One sounds like a religion and the other not.

Fred

As long as equally applied, fair justice can also be delivered even when death sentence exists
The purpose of data is to tell us what will be the most effective way to stop crimes, however this piece of data have no place in the decision making process when crime prevention is not the goal.
Logic can be used to present arguments against death penalties and so as they can be used to present arguments in favor of death penalty. See for example first few parts in this post.

mham001 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
abortion have no place in the discussion as fetus are not developed human forms and there are already numerous regulations in place in most countries against unreasonable abortion


That is not necessarily true. In fact one of those "western" countries held up as paragons of human rights, Canada, by which it denounces the death penalty, has NO restrictions on late-term abortions (over 20 weeks), which is indeed a developed human form. I find that quite hypocritical. Certainly has more impact on society than eliminating a few murderers.

20 weeks old fetus still cannot survive independently without external helps so I won't call it developed enough to be an individual person.

Redd wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Recently Japan executed the person who was behind the Tokyo metro sarin gas attack. After the execution, ambassador from various European countries to Japan have co-authored a letter, saying that they understand the incident is special to Japan and
Japanese people, however point out that death penalty have no effect on stopping crimes and mistakes in ruling cannot be corrected in the future, therefore strongly oppose the use of death penalty in all situations. Amnesty International have also criticized the use of death penalty as a ultimate denial on human right.

But looking at those arguments against death penalty, is it just me that the supposed secular countries of European are being a little bit religious here? As it seems like it is part of the religion of modern European that believe it is bad for human to kill other humans for the crimes they have committed, but the stance is based on what European believed instead of something that would be agreed by most of the humanity. As I have read in comments about the news, the "lack of inhibitory effect" for death penalty is a non-reason when it come to whether to keep death penalty or not, rather it is just normal that people have to paid their price if they killed someone, and comments also pointed out that European countries have higher crime/murder rate than Japan and tend to approve killing suspects on the scene instead of trying the best effort to take them to juridical trials. In other words, is the EU's position on death penalty a bit too religious?



NO offence, but maybe you should be questioning your own country with private for profit prisons, the highest incarceration rate in the world, the lowest reform rate in the developed world, and more executions take place in the USA than any other country save Iran, Saudi Arabia and China. Taking all that into consideration the USA is still one of the most dangerous and highest crime rate countries (actually the highest) in the developed world. 2nd place in mass shootings only to Mexico, which happens to be run by drug cartels, drug epidemics.. etc etc etc..... Glass house and all that my friend.

I did not mention, nor even implies, anything about the United States in my post.
 
c933103
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
I’m not a proponent of the death penalty, but Luka Magnotta makes me struggle.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luka_Magnotta


Yeah and your Canadian justice system sentenced him to life in prison with no parole for 25 years? No at the very least it should be no parole PERIOD! This is the liberal justice system way of looking at sentencing .


Do you want an effective human system or a system which feels good?

These sort of events are extremely rare anyway and most of them would have longlasting impact on society. It might be better to the society in the long run if it is a general knowledge that someone committing such serious offense could face the death penalty, even if potential criminals would not be deterred by it.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:48 pm

RetroRoo wrote:
I'm a little taken aback that apparently not killing people is a European ideal.

I mean... who needs history when we have this thread?

As you were, A.net, as you were...

Jeeeezus.


Yeah, Europeans had enough of killing each other and wanted some humanity in society, hence no more state-sponsored killing starting within the EU.

But yeah:

Image

Great point :roll:
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Dutchy
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:59 pm

c933103 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
stratosphere wrote:

Yeah and your Canadian justice system sentenced him to life in prison with no parole for 25 years? No at the very least it should be no parole PERIOD! This is the liberal justice system way of looking at sentencing .


Do you want an effective human system or a system which feels good?

These sort of events are extremely rare anyway and most of them would have longlasting impact on society. It might be better to the society in the long run if it is a general knowledge that someone committing such serious offense could face the death penalty, even if potential criminals would not be deterred by it.


Why?
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tommy1808
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:09 pm

c933103 wrote:
What? When capital punishment is written into the law, and they're applied according to what's written, that's called rule of law.


Human rights or natural law exclude capital punishment, writing a law permitting it in a country doesn´t make it legal, it is just a nation state holding a protective hand over professional killers. Each and every dictatorship does the same. With that argument almost everyone at the Nuremberg trials would have been acquitted, as the law said what they did was legal.

Deterrence value is not the only reason why we have laws and punitive system. Costs isn't even a concern here and lifelong sentence will also cost a lot.


it is still cheaper outside.

It would affect the relatives of the criminal but the effect would be equal in other form of punishment,


yes, because a family member being slaughtered by the state you call "home" and visiting a grave is the same as locking them up with visiting hours...

and in fact in these cases it can even help the relative of those families to clear their link with the criminal and prevent continually being linked to the crime in the future.


If people get problems for having an imprisoned murderer in the family, society is wrong. Statesponsored murder doesn´t fix society.

It will also prevent murderer to pass down their possibly dangerous view to later generations and avoid their family from being seen as "better off than victims in those cases" and also send a clear signal to their descendent if they have any that one should be responsible to what they have did.


criminals have freedom of speech too. Even making the argument "lets murder them before they say something bad" goes very far to show how little you care about human rights at all.

As for the possibility of innocent rules, that's why it takes really lengthy judicial process before someone are to be given death sentence in many countries. The system will never be perfect, however damages to those who are falsely accused wouldn't be difference even if the penalty was not a death penalty and thus that is not a ground to oppose death penalty.


Yeah... because being found innocent after rotting in a grave for 20 years is exactly the same as being released after 20 years, with compensation paid on top.

In polls that I have mentioned before, some of them are asked in a way that if life imprisonment without chance of parole are introduced to replace death sentence, would you support the abolition of death sentence. About 60% people still say no, about 30% say it can be considered if life sentence without possibility of parole are introduced instead, and then the amount of people that support the removal of death penalty without introducing such system was in the range of single digit percent according to the polls.


And you get even better values in favor of capital punishment if you ask only ISIS members. What the majority wants is irrelevant when human rights are concerned. You have them. Period.

Judge, Jury-members and everyone involved in handing down and carrying out death sentences need to be prosecuted for the murders they have committed. Due to universal jurisdiction for crimes against humanity, the day may very well come in the next few decades.

best regards
Thomas
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c933103
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:09 pm

Dutchy wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Do you want an effective human system or a system which feels good?

These sort of events are extremely rare anyway and most of them would have longlasting impact on society. It might be better to the society in the long run if it is a general knowledge that someone committing such serious offense could face the death penalty, even if potential criminals would not be deterred by it.


Why?

The idea that people who take away life of others or commit other equally wrong crimes will have their life being taken away should help ease the worry among citizens against living in the same society as individuals that have committed those offenses and help stabilize the society
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:19 pm

c933103 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
c933103 wrote:
These sort of events are extremely rare anyway and most of them would have longlasting impact on society. It might be better to the society in the long run if it is a general knowledge that someone committing such serious offense could face the death penalty, even if potential criminals would not be deterred by it.


Why?

The idea that people who take away life of others or commit other equally wrong crimes will have their life being taken away should help ease the worry among citizens against living in the same society as individuals that have committed those offenses and help stabilize the society


Exactly, it is a feeling, no evidence that it is actually the case.
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c933103
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:35 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
What? When capital punishment is written into the law, and they're applied according to what's written, that's called rule of law.


Human rights or natural law exclude capital punishment,

Who determine "Human rights or natural law exclude capital punishment"? Especially for natural law, if we follow the explanation from the Encyclopedia of Britannica, which said "Natural law, in philosophy, a system of right or justice held to be common to all humans and derived from nature rather than from the rules of society, or positive law.", given that the value that capital punishment should be abolished is not something of common value to all human beings, that should not be assumed as part of the natural law.
writing a law permitting it in a country doesn´t make it legal, it is just a nation state holding a protective hand over professional killers.

To prevent this situation, the capital punishment device in Japan have been specially engineered so that no single individual could be said as the one who is responsible for killing the person.
Each and every dictatorship does the same. With that argument almost everyone at the Nuremberg trials would have been acquitted, as the law said what they did was legal.

Country laws are not above everything, ethnic cleansing is something that most human individuals would find it disagreeable, however execution of criminals is not.
Deterrence value is not the only reason why we have laws and punitive system. Costs isn't even a concern here and lifelong sentence will also cost a lot.


it is still cheaper outside.
Then again, literally irrelevant

It would affect the relatives of the criminal but the effect would be equal in other form of punishment,


yes, because a family member being slaughtered by the state you call "home" and visiting a grave is the same as locking them up with visiting hours...

and in fact in these cases it can even help the relative of those families to clear their link with the criminal and prevent continually being linked to the crime in the future.


If people get problems for having an imprisoned murderer in the family, society is wrong. Statesponsored murder doesn´t fix society.
Who decide a "society is wrong" other than arbitrary moral and religious judgement?

It will also prevent murderer to pass down their possibly dangerous view to later generations and avoid their family from being seen as "better off than victims in those cases" and also send a clear signal to their descendent if they have any that one should be responsible to what they have did.


criminals have freedom of speech too. Even making the argument "lets murder them before they say something bad" goes very far to show how little you care about human rights at all.
Should extremist ideology be free to spread?

As for the possibility of innocent rules, that's why it takes really lengthy judicial process before someone are to be given death sentence in many countries. The system will never be perfect, however damages to those who are falsely accused wouldn't be difference even if the penalty was not a death penalty and thus that is not a ground to oppose death penalty.


Yeah... because being found innocent after rotting in a grave for 20 years is exactly the same as being released after 20 years, with compensation paid on top.
Do you think monetary compensation can actually help compensating time someone spent in a prison? If so then monetary compensation to family of those falsely accused would do the same job.

In polls that I have mentioned before, some of them are asked in a way that if life imprisonment without chance of parole are introduced to replace death sentence, would you support the abolition of death sentence. About 60% people still say no, about 30% say it can be considered if life sentence without possibility of parole are introduced instead, and then the amount of people that support the removal of death penalty without introducing such system was in the range of single digit percent according to the polls.


And you get even better values in favor of capital punishment if you ask only ISIS members. What the majority wants is irrelevant when human rights are concerned. You have them. Period.
Who decide what is human right, other than religious believes?

Judge, Jury-members and everyone involved in handing down and carrying out death sentences need to be prosecuted for the murders they have committed. Due to universal jurisdiction for crimes against humanity, the day may very well come in the next few decades.

best regards
Thomas
In what sense is it universal?
Dutchy wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The idea that people who take away life of others or commit other equally wrong crimes will have their life being taken away should help ease the worry among citizens against living in the same society as individuals that have committed those offenses and help stabilize the society


Exactly, it is a feeling, no evidence that it is actually the case.

The feeling helps the society.
 
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scbriml
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:47 pm

c933103 wrote:
Obviously not, but regardless of methodology of implementing punitive system, you still can't get everything right, and falsely sending someone into life sentence is just about as destructive as falsely sending someone into death sentence.


Even after 10 years or more in prison, an innocent person can still be pardoned, freed and compensated. How do you compensate a person you incorrectly executed? :sarcastic:

c933103 wrote:
It's like saying should we stop giving guns to police jist because they might hurt bystanders when they're using guns to caught people.


It's nothing like that at all. Where I come from, most of the police don't have guns anyway. :shakehead:
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:50 pm

c933103 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The idea that people who take away life of others or commit other equally wrong crimes will have their life being taken away should help ease the worry among citizens against living in the same society as individuals that have committed those offenses and help stabilize the society


Exactly, it is a feeling, no evidence that it is actually the case.


The feeling helps the society.


So you say, but I see no empiric evidence for that. Do people in the US feel saver then in Europe? or Canada? The same standard of living, sort of same democratic way. So quite comparable I would say.
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Kiwirob
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:52 pm

scbriml wrote:
c933103 wrote:
But looking at those arguments against death penalty, is it just me that the supposed secular countries of European are being a little bit religious here?


It's just you. :yes:

How do you draw the conclusion we're "a bit religious" about the death penalty in Europe? I'm of the view that the death penalty has no place in a modern society. Religion doesn't come in at all. :confused:


How could you say that someone like Andres Breivik doesn’t deserve the death penalty, there’s no doubt he did it, he was caught gun in hand, he murder 76 people, mostly children, how can anyone think that a person like him should be allowed to live???
 
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:01 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
scbriml wrote:
c933103 wrote:
But looking at those arguments against death penalty, is it just me that the supposed secular countries of European are being a little bit religious here?


It's just you. :yes:

How do you draw the conclusion we're "a bit religious" about the death penalty in Europe? I'm of the view that the death penalty has no place in a modern society. Religion doesn't come in at all. :confused:


How could you say that someone like Andres Breivik doesn’t deserve the death penalty, there’s no doubt he did it, he was caught gun in hand, he murder 76 people, mostly children, how can anyone think that a person like him should be allowed to live???


Fun fact, Andres Breivik agrees with you, he wanted to be released or the death penalty.

76 dead, so we should add number 77? Nobody disputed that it was a despicable act. Don't think that killing him would solve anything.
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:02 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

bullsh*t. This is human rights correctly being implemented by courts. Life imprisonment without *chance* of parole is a violation of human rights just as much as capital punishment.

There is exactly zero reasons to have an old criminal die of old age, cancer or what not in a cage, almost every criminal will reach a point in its life where they don´t pose a threat to anyone anymore. Letting them die outside is also cheaper.

Many places that aren´t exectly liberal don´t have life imprisonment w/o chance of parole, by far the most countries don´t have capital punishment.

Those countries that still have either don´t understand or don´t care about human rights.



You and your stupid human rights bullshit, some people simply don’t deserve to live, I keep on mentioning him, Anders Breivik is one of those people, killing 76 mostly children is wrong in anyone’s book, if you think him being locked up for life or executed is against his human rights you’re as bad as he is.
 
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:02 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

bullsh*t. This is human rights correctly being implemented by courts. Life imprisonment without *chance* of parole is a violation of human rights just as much as capital punishment.

There is exactly zero reasons to have an old criminal die of old age, cancer or what not in a cage, almost every criminal will reach a point in its life where they don´t pose a threat to anyone anymore. Letting them die outside is also cheaper.

Many places that aren´t exectly liberal don´t have life imprisonment w/o chance of parole, by far the most countries don´t have capital punishment.

Those countries that still have either don´t understand or don´t care about human rights.



You and your stupid human rights bullshit, some people simply don’t deserve to live, I keep on mentioning him, Anders Breivik is one of those people, killing 76 mostly children is wrong in anyone’s book, if you think him being locked up for life or executed is against his human rights you’re as bad as he is.


Stupid emotional remark.
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:04 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

So you say, but I see no empiric evidence for that. Do people in the US feel saver then in Europe? or Canada? The same standard of living, sort of same democratic way. So quite comparable I would say.


It’s not about feeling safe it’s about removing the rubbish that litters society. People who do bad things need to be removed, if they do really bad things they should be removed permanently.


You having an extremist view. Fine, nobody will convince you that you are wrong, no matter what evidence there is, no matter what the consequences there are.
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:

So you say, but I see no empiric evidence for that. Do people in the US feel saver then in Europe? or Canada? The same standard of living, sort of same democratic way. So quite comparable I would say.


It’s not about feeling safe it’s about removing the rubbish that litters society. People who do bad things need to be removed, if they do really bad things they should be removed permanently.
 
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Fun fact, Andres Breivik agrees with you, he wanted to be released or the death penalty.

76 dead, so we should add number 77? Nobody disputed that it was a despicable act. Don't think that killing him would solve anything.


Yes I would be perfectly happy to see him dead. I believe the police failed the people of Norway, they could have shot him and solved the issue forever. Nobody would miss him, his parents have disowned him, we wouldn’t have to protect him in prison, and he could be forgotten.
 
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:13 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

So you say, but I see no empiric evidence for that. Do people in the US feel saver then in Europe? or Canada? The same standard of living, sort of same democratic way. So quite comparable I would say.


It’s not about feeling safe it’s about removing the rubbish that litters society. People who do bad things need to be removed, if they do really bad things they should be removed permanently.


You having an extremist view. Fine, nobody will convince you that you are wrong, no matter what evidence there is, no matter what the consequences there are.


I don’t see the point in keeping murders and other nasty types alive. I’d imagine you’d be happy if all the war criminals weren’t executed after WW2?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:19 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

It’s not about feeling safe it’s about removing the rubbish that litters society. People who do bad things need to be removed, if they do really bad things they should be removed permanently.


You having an extremist view. Fine, nobody will convince you that you are wrong, no matter what evidence there is, no matter what the consequences there are.


I don’t see the point in keeping murders and other nasty types alive. I’d imagine you’d be happy if all the war criminals weren’t executed after WW2?


Not happy, but it would have been a be a better outcome, indeed. I think the current UN war tribunals are better than Nürnberg, no death penalty by UN courts.
Last edited by Dutchy on Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:20 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
How could you say that someone like Andres Breivik doesn’t deserve the death penalty, there’s no doubt he did it, he was caught gun in hand, he murder 76 people, mostly children, how can anyone think that a person like him should be allowed to live???


I can say it because I believe killing people is wrong. That includes state sponsored murder. You're free to disagree. However, you disagreeing with me doesn't make you right and me wrong.
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