tommy1808
Posts: 8634
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:35 am

Dutchy wrote:
Is there any evidence for that. I have seen some, anecdotical evidence, to the contrary.


There are victim family organisations fighting capital punishment, so there is that. We probably all know people that have fallen victim to crimes without changing out attitude towards punishment and many of us have been victims of crime ourselves without any change in attitude.

ArciniegaJR wrote:
Save the criminals and kill the babes? And you're talking about survival?


dictionary wrote:
baby
ˈbeɪbi
noun
1.
a very young child.
"his wife's just had a baby"
synonyms: infant, newborn, child, tot, little one; More
2.
informal
a lover or spouse (often as a form of address).
"my baby left me for another guy"
synonyms: darling, sweetheart, dearest, dear; More
adjective
1.
comparatively small or immature of its kind.
"a baby version of the Oxford Movement"
synonyms: miniature, mini, little, small, small-scale, scaled-down, toy, pocket, midget, dwarf, fun-size; More
verb
1.
treat (someone) as a baby; pamper or be overprotective towards.
"her aunt babied her and fussed over her clothes"
synonyms: pamper, mollycoddle, spoil, cosset, coddle, indulge, overindulge, pet, wait on someone hand and foot, feather-bed, wrap in cotton wool, overparent, nanny


Killing babies isn´t allowed anywhere, you are using words wrong.

c933103 wrote:
That's also why jail terms are determined by severity of a crime instead of how easily can the crime be corrected.


Not quite. Here, like in other countries that do understand human rights and accept how our brains work, you are convicted for murder, whether you commit one or 100 doesn´t really matter, you are still just a murderer, and the sentence is life, not 100x life. Judges will often include the effect of serving time into their rulings, for example let someone get away with two years of parole instead of sending them to prison for two years, because prison would reduce the chance of reoffending and increase the overall chance of another crime committed. The potential future victims rights exceed the rights of past victims at some point.

Missed the part in previous reply


Well, and apparently you still reject science, you know, like a good fundamentalist would.

- The message that "we are not criminal so we shouldn't kill people like what a criminal did" doesn't seems to be persuading as it only tell why we shouldn't kill them ourselves, but say nothing about why the person should not die. If the concern is just that the society should not kill someone, then we can lock the person into a room without supply of new food/water/air and everything, and then include a gun into the room so that the person can decide when will he kill himself. Alternatively, we can also, for instance, create a huge room under a large train station, lock up people who are going to get death sentence in, and then put some lethal pathogen on top of the roof of the room each time everyone use the train station, there's a chance that those pathogen would fall off from the roof and onto the room's air due to pressure of footsteps, and then they would have a chance to be inhaled by the person and that would killed them. So no one will need to conduct the execution process.


The guy who locks the door is still the murderer.

And given your violent torture fantasies, you know the stuff that made ISIS burn people alive in cages instead of just shooting them in the head, you should probably see a mental health professional about those, especially if you took/take delight from hurting animals.

So you think applying punishment against criminals according to crimes that committed doesn't work? Then why are there countries that do so and are still working?


They don´t. Countries that have capital punishment are the most ignorant: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 81196.html
Tend to be fragile nations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ates_Index
Tend to be corrupt: http://fortune.com/2016/01/27/transpare ... ion-index/
And unsuccessful societies correlate nicely not just with religiosity, but also with having capital punishment: http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10. ... 0900700305

None of which is surprising....

]If it is "universal" than why am I, together with many others, thinking the other way?


It is universally not just accepted, but simply true, that earth is 4+ Billion years old. There are plenty of people still putting that at 6 to 10k years. That doesn´t make them any more right than you are, and they maintain that "believe" for the same reason you do: fundamentalism, and as we learned from your posting above: sadism.

Which part of "outside these countries" do you not understand?


answered by implication. It follows that all countries in the Americas have capital punishment outside, in just one country.

Imprisonment still allow the criminal to come in contact with outside society, have a chance to be released in the future for things like prison break, change of political regime, amnesty, parole, and such, which mean they would still have a potential threat on the society


Dang, how many reasons do you have to murder people? That they might break out? That they may be, lawfully, released? That they talk about ideas that you don´t like, but are not more extremist than yours oh.. and yes.. because it is better for them to get murdered....... i almost forgot.

As for modify behavior, how can that happens when all human are intrinsically thinking around oneself or his own surrounding in nature? Sometimes people would understand and be considerate about a wider scope of objects like the entire society or entire humanity or even all forms of life, but that still doesn't change the fact that human would only do what they want.


Irrelevant, since it is just made up fantasy. What you think doesn´t matter, with an effective correction system re-offense rates are low. For crimes against life just about 1%.

It could simply mean they don't have chance to redo what they did in their life and doesn't mean that they won't if they're given the opportunity to do so. There have been millenniums of philosophical iterations that all come to the conclusion that the nature of human is not to be beneficiary to "others".


And now you want to murder people even when you are 99% confident they won´t commit a crime. Given your sick violent torture fantasies we should think very hard about executing you preemtively, you don´t mind, right? Since you are totally ok to do that to others....

Then again that is a utilitarian way of saying what kind of punishment would yield less crime instead of saying what kind of punishment they deserve. Also many European countries have higher crime rates than many Asian countries.


https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp

The only country in Asia that has significantly lower crime than European countries is Japan.

Japan also has rising crime rates: https://abcnews.go.com/International/st ... 963&page=1 against the global trend.

And obviously in a country that culturally doesn´t see much crime, the number of criminals is so low that mistreating them doesn´t have much effect on overall society. Of course you will reject that, but Japans "hard time" policy gives them really bad, and getting worse, re-offending rates: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/20 ... 0WamtIzaUk

Those Asian counties debunk your position quite nicely.

How can one maintain living without working and be accepted into a country without sales tax/vat? Even farming or hunting might need to pay tax


I didn´t say it is practical, starving to death is however your problem, according to you at least. There are however places where you are not taxed, you can find those. Just go there.

I mean, there are people losing election because they want to remove capital punishment


And other people do because they want to increase LGBTQ protections.... fundamentalists get to vote, you know.

tommy1808 wrote:
Again: where do you get punished/executed for discussing extremist views in private?

Like https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2 ... conviction for France or https://www.eurozine.com/no-freedom-to- ... ncitement/ for Germany?


France: wasn´t convicted for discussing extremest positions in private conversations.
Germany: Nothing about discussing extremest positions in private conversations, just about publicly promoting those views.

1. Yes causing innocent person to be killed is the price that need to be pay for to maintain the system


BS. By far most countries don´t execute people and those that do seem to have trouble maintaining their system.

18th century? You mean 18th century of Europe? The way 18th centuries European see the world seems to be different from 21st century European, and in a similar way other world area could also see thing differently from 21st century western society.


exactly, the 18th century where fundamentalist like you where much more common. By far most countries have learned, you didn´t.

a.) Those persons are needed for the society to function


By far most countries obviously disagree with that assessment, and are less dysfunctional than those societies that do. We should lock them up for a) being murders and b) doing real harm to society.

If anyone have been intentionally caused an innocent people to be sentenced to death then they should be charged accordingly of course


That would be all of them. They decided there isn´t reasonable doubt, they decided to get an innocent person murdered.

ah, maybe they're just not being considerate enough and forget about there are persons that need to be sentenced to death.


...... said the ISIS fighter when he lit a Christian on fire.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5854
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:50 am

tommy1808 wrote:
There are victim family organisations fighting capital punishment, so there is that.

There are people marching with placards claiming "Lesbians for Hamas"...
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8634
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:33 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
There are victim family organisations fighting capital punishment, so there is that.

There are people marching with placards claiming "Lesbians for Hamas"...


irrelevant in the context discussed.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
Zeppi
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:26 am

tommy1808 wrote:
In Germany reoffending rate for crimes against life is 1%, rape and sexual abuse have 3%. I don´t see how that is "usually futile".
Hard time makes those numbers worse, not better.


Where did you get those numbers?

Image

Kiwirob wrote:
I'm sure you would change your tune if one of your family members or close friends was murdered, most people do.

Indeed most of the do-gooders quite quickly fall off their moral high horse when personally affected...
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8634
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:59 am

Zeppi wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
In Germany reoffending rate for crimes against life is 1%, rape and sexual abuse have 3%. I don´t see how that is "usually futile".
Hard time makes those numbers worse, not better.


Where did you get those numbers? .


Studies ;-) and the same your Image is based on.
https://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Fast-jeder ... 15061.html

I am taking German isn´t you native language? Those are the rates for people that find themselves in court for *any* reason, not for committing the same kind of crime.

Translated from the article:

On the other hand, less than one percent of the perpetrators covered by a homicide have relapsed again with a homicide. Also in the case of sexual offences, relevant relapses occur only to a small extent. For example, for perpetrators registered for sexual assault or rape, recidivism with another violent sexual crime is only three percent. The same applies to sexual abuse


It is kinda obvious, since "Driving without licence" is listed as one of the inhuman offenses in your image (don´t get me wrong, we can not allow that to happen either, but it is hardly a serious crime).

ndeed most of the do-gooders quite quickly fall off their moral high horse when personally affected..


I am sure you can proof this 51+% claim of yours.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 8164
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:22 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I honestly do think there is an absolute connection between abortion and the death penalty.


I honestly do think you are wrong about that. ;-)

Well you are always welcome to think what you want, no crime in that. :blockhead:

tommy1808 wrote:
Technically, outside of late term abortions, it is not the abortion procedure that kills the featus, it is being outside the woman´s body and not being viable that leads to it dying. A executed person is actively killed, in an abortion the fetuses death is "just" a side effect of the procedure.

You really work to justify this and make it right in your mind don't you? By what you say you could just not feed (or provide water) to someone in prison and therefor death is "just a side effect" of their incarceration.... Seriously that line above about abortion and a babies/fetus' death being "just" a side effect is pure drivel... of the worst kind I think. Just acknowledge it, a life process is being interfered with in a way that leads to the termination of the fetus. If you accept it then accept it and move on. I have. It is the woman's body, she has a natural right to terminate and women have been doing so for millennia. We save babies that would otherwise die and we end the development of babies (aka fetuses) that would otherwise likely be born.

tommy1808 wrote:
And that makes a whole lot of a difference in ethics. You probably heard about the lorie on the tracks about to kill people ethical dilemma questions. Most people, independent of age, gender, culture, religion and such, would say it is ok to divert the Lorie onto another track, knowing it will kill a person there, but morally wrong to toss the same person on the track, assuming their are sufficiently fat to stop the lorie.

Either way you are taking action that will lead to the end of a life (or lives) and we make those decisions every day, we have that power. So accept that is what you are doing: Valuing one life over another. It is OK to do that.

tommy1808 wrote:
Imprisonment and death penalty serve the same purpose, and do so to the same degree. In both cases future crimes are prevented. There is no benefit for the victim in putting someone down, in fact studies rather indicate that imprisonment is better for the victim, as it allows to move on faster. Not murdering a murderer therefore doesn´t violate anyone´s rights. Forcing a woman to carry a baby to term does. Her liberty and freedom goes beyond the fetuses entitlement to nourishment and shelter, the same way there are limits as to how much we can tax people only to provide welfare and shelter to the homeless.

So you agree that taxing people to support a murdered that is permanently incarcerated has limits and that the public can decide other solutions are an option? Such as ending their life and not having to spend their taxes to support that person? You really do work at this. I think that is just silly reasoning. Just accept that terminating life is something that we authorize or not. The death penalty is not for the benefit of the victim, it is the consequence of the perpetrators own actions.

tommy1808 wrote:
I do understand the reasoning too. That doesn´t mean the reasons are valid or consistent with what we claim to believe in.

It doesn't mean they aren't either. I believe I am being very consistent. There are times when ending a life is acceptable to society and people.

tommy1808 wrote:
"It hurts every time i hit myself with the hammer!"
"Well, then don´t"
"But hitting myself with a hammer is good for a), b), c)..... "

Or...?
"It hurts every time i get a vaccination shot!
"Well, then don´t"
"But getting a vaccination is good for a), b), c)..... "

Why advise against vaccinations?


Jalap wrote:
Murder is always wrong. If we want humanity to survive another 200 years, all should agree on this.

Linking abortion to death penalty is spinning the debate. It's a whole different discussion. This discussion is about the age a fetus has when aborting equals murder.

I am not talking about murder, as you say murder is always wrong. I am talking about society's approval/acceptance or otherwise of terminating life and/or the process of life. In some case it is approved and supported. I am OK with that.

I am not trying to change your minds on this, simply stating what I know and find reasonable. I eat meat, I am OK with raising animals that will be slaughtered to support that. I know what goes into the process and accept it. However I do think the animals should be treated with the respect that most any creature on this planet deserves prior to the termination of their life Same with the death penalty. But again there are caveats and big problems with how the process is carried out currently that make me not support its implementation as it is now. Executing an innocent person is not OK, I know many ridiculous supporters of the death penalty that say stupid things like "it is acceptable/just part of the cost though unfortunate that some may be executed who didn't commit the crime". No, that isn't OK or acceptable. And must be applied equally across the spectrum, not impacting one group etc. for whatever reason. So while I can support it and understand it I don't support a lot of what I see now.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 15915
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:32 pm

Zeppi wrote:
Indeed most of the do-gooders quite quickly fall off their moral high horse when personally affected...


So someone who disagrees with the death penalty is a "do-gooder on a moral high horse"?

Don't sit on the fence, tell us what you really think. :sarcastic:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8634
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:15 pm

Tugger wrote:
You really work to justify this and make it right in your mind don't you?


Nah, I am perfectly fine in my head with us killing toddlers all the freaking time, just to eat them. That is the level of intelligence that an adult pig has. I still eat meat two or three times per year.
And I am not saying the pig should have the same or more rights, just pointing out that complaining about a featus is quite hilaruous considering how little we otherwise care about life able to feel fear, pain and grief. All things a featus doesn't do until quite late in the pregnancy

By what you say you could just not feed (or provide water) to someone in prison and therefor death is "just a side effect" of their incarceration.... Seriously that line above about abortion and a babies/fetus' death being "just" a side effect is pure drivel... of the worst kind I think.


How many women have you heard told their doctors "please kill my baby".

The intention of an abortion is not being pregnant, that the featus dies is a side effect of that procedure.
If you lock someone in a room without food or water, the intention is to kill the person, and in a fairly bad way on top of it.

Just acknowledge it, a life process is being interfered with in a way that leads to the termination of the fetus. If you accept it then accept it and move on. I have.


I so accept that, that doesn't change the fact that a women getting a abortion does not do so with the intention to have it killed. That just happens in the process.

It is the woman's body, she has a natural right to terminate and women have been doing so for millennia. We save babies that would otherwise die and we end the development of babies (aka fetuses) that would otherwise likely be born.


Yup, it is their right. They still don't *want* to kill the featus, which makes all the difference in the world.

Just like you don't want to get anyone killed if you don't check if every single resource in every single product you use is traded fair and conflict free. You know people get killed over the stuff you consume, you still decide to buy it. But you don't intend all the child labour, death due to low safety standards or oppression or the war you are financing with your purchase decissions.

You an I have options to consume, fair and conflict free, a woman doesn't have other options to terminate a pregnancy.

Either way you are taking action that will lead to the end of a life (or lives) and we make those decisions every day, we have that power. So accept that is what you are doing: Valuing one life over another. It is OK to do that.


Totally accepted, the death of the featus still.is a side effect of that woman's decission, not the purpose.

The death penalty is not for the benefit of the victim, it is the consequence of the perpetrators own actions.


Inevitable actions, free will is an illusion. There is no benefit in executions, they don't even safe money, no rights to balance against another are involved.

It doesn't mean they aren't either. I believe I am being very consistent. There are times when ending a life is acceptable to society and people.


Murder isn't one of them. Not anywhere.

tommy1808 wrote:
"It hurts every time i hit myself with the hammer!"
"Well, then don´t"
"But hitting myself with a hammer is good for a), b), c)..... "

Or...?
"It hurts every time i get a vaccination shot!
"Well, then don´t"
"But getting a vaccination is good for a), b), c)..... "

Why advise against vaccinations?


Well, if the hammer guy can demonstrate that his a), b), c) are beneficial..... hammer away.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 8164
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:28 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
And I am not saying the pig should have the same or more rights, just pointing out that complaining about a featus is quite hilaruous considering how little we otherwise care about life able to feel fear, pain and grief. All things a featus doesn't do until quite late in the pregnancy

Agreed.

tommy1808 wrote:
How many women have you heard told their doctors "please kill my baby".

How many clinics that offer abortion as a service have you been to? I haven't been to any so I haven't heard what women say and honestly have no idea.

tommy1808 wrote:
The intention of an abortion is not being pregnant, that the featus dies is a side effect of that procedure.
If you lock someone in a room without food or water, the intention is to kill the person,

Either way a life process is ending. You seem to be unable to accept that. I do.



tommy1808 wrote:
I so accept that, that doesn't change the fact that a women getting a abortion does not do so with the intention to have it killed. That just happens in the process.

Tommy, someones "intent" doesn't change the fact of what happens. Someone above (it may have been you, I don't want to attribute incorrectly) noted why isn't driving drunk and killing someone also eligible for the death penalty. Someone/something still dies due to you actions, that if you had not undertaken would not have likely died (terminated) otherwise.

tommy1808 wrote:
Yup, it is their right. They still don't *want* to kill the featus, which makes all the difference in the world.

A life (process) still ends, not matter what the woman's "wants". Women that I have talked to get this. Know this. And they accept it. I have friends who are fine with it and it never really enters their mind and others that do think about it and it does/has affected them. Every woman is different. I am not demanding a single type of response. It is the woman's life, it is her body.


tommy1808 wrote:
Totally accepted, the death of the featus still.is a side effect of that woman's decission, not the purpose.

Still trying to twist it. Why don't you just give up on trying to prove what is impossible? It is not even the point of this thread. I just find the two correlate and apply my values and judgement in a way that I find is appropriate. I can get drunk just because I wanted to have fun with friends and if drive and kill someone that doesn't change the fact that my actions terminated another life. "Side effect" or otherwise, reality remains.

tommy1808 wrote:
Murder isn't one of them. Not anywhere.

Agreed.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 11514
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:39 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

Inevitable actions, free will is an illusion. There is no benefit in executions, they don't even safe money, no rights to balance against another are involved.

Best regards
Thomas


For America they probably don’t save any money but if they sorted out the appeals process and killed them within 2 years of conviction rather then dragging it out a decade or more I’m sure it would become cost effective. In China, Indonesia and other countries where they still do the right thing I’d like to see your proof that it costs more than life in prison.
 
ArciniegaJR
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:18 am

Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:49 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Is there any evidence for that. I have seen some, anecdotical evidence, to the contrary.


There are victim family organisations fighting capital punishment, so there is that. We probably all know people that have fallen victim to crimes without changing out attitude towards punishment and many of us have been victims of crime ourselves without any change in attitude.

ArciniegaJR wrote:
Save the criminals and kill the babes? And you're talking about survival?


dictionary wrote:
baby
ˈbeɪbi
noun
1.
a very young child.
"his wife's just had a baby"
synonyms: infant, newborn, child, tot, little one; More
2.
informal
a lover or spouse (often as a form of address).
"my baby left me for another guy"
synonyms: darling, sweetheart, dearest, dear; More
adjective
1.
comparatively small or immature of its kind.
"a baby version of the Oxford Movement"
synonyms: miniature, mini, little, small, small-scale, scaled-down, toy, pocket, midget, dwarf, fun-size; More
verb
1.
treat (someone) as a baby; pamper or be overprotective towards.
"her aunt babied her and fussed over her clothes"
synonyms: pamper, mollycoddle, spoil, cosset, coddle, indulge, overindulge, pet, wait on someone hand and foot, feather-bed, wrap in cotton wool, overparent, nanny


Killing babies isn´t allowed anywhere, you are using words wrong.

Thomas


A being that would mature into an actual human if it weren't aborted is a person. I know many don't believe that but you're ending a life.

Do you not believe you're preventing a life that's already been set in motion?

Mincing words, calling it this or that is an excuse to stop the development of a human being from occurring. Its ending a life. Its early life, but its a life. Why not allow abortions at month 9? Its not a person yet....
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 6494
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:09 pm

ArciniegaJR wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Is there any evidence for that. I have seen some, anecdotical evidence, to the contrary.


There are victim family organisations fighting capital punishment, so there is that. We probably all know people that have fallen victim to crimes without changing out attitude towards punishment and many of us have been victims of crime ourselves without any change in attitude.

ArciniegaJR wrote:
Save the criminals and kill the babes? And you're talking about survival?


dictionary wrote:
baby
ˈbeɪbi
noun
1.
a very young child.
"his wife's just had a baby"
synonyms: infant, newborn, child, tot, little one; More
2.
informal
a lover or spouse (often as a form of address).
"my baby left me for another guy"
synonyms: darling, sweetheart, dearest, dear; More
adjective
1.
comparatively small or immature of its kind.
"a baby version of the Oxford Movement"
synonyms: miniature, mini, little, small, small-scale, scaled-down, toy, pocket, midget, dwarf, fun-size; More
verb
1.
treat (someone) as a baby; pamper or be overprotective towards.
"her aunt babied her and fussed over her clothes"
synonyms: pamper, mollycoddle, spoil, cosset, coddle, indulge, overindulge, pet, wait on someone hand and foot, feather-bed, wrap in cotton wool, overparent, nanny


Killing babies isn´t allowed anywhere, you are using words wrong.

Thomas


A being that would mature into an actual human if it weren't aborted is a person. I know many don't believe that but you're ending a life.

Do you not believe you're preventing a life that's already been set in motion?

Mincing words, calling it this or that is an excuse to stop the development of a human being from occurring. Its ending a life. Its early life, but its a life. Why not allow abortions at month 9? Its not a person yet....


I suggest opening a thread about abortion and not derail this thread about the death penalty with it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 15915
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:29 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
For America they probably don’t save any money but if they sorted out the appeals process and killed them within 2 years of conviction rather then dragging it out a decade or more I’m sure it would become cost effective. In China, Indonesia and other countries where they still do the right thing I’d like to see your proof that it costs more than life in prison.


If the cost of keeping someone alive in prison is higher, then I'm happy as a taxpayer to bare that burden if it separates us from the likes of China, Saudi Arabia and Indonesia. Because they're all such paragons of virtue and justice. :sarcastic:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 6494
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:34 pm

scbriml wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
For America they probably don’t save any money but if they sorted out the appeals process and killed them within 2 years of conviction rather then dragging it out a decade or more I’m sure it would become cost effective. In China, Indonesia and other countries where they still do the right thing I’d like to see your proof that it costs more than life in prison.


If the cost of keeping someone alive in prison is higher, then I'm happy as a taxpayer to bare that burden if it separates us from the likes of China, Saudi Arabia and Indonesia. Because they're all such paragons of virtue and justice. :sarcastic:


For a school project, I spoke with a judge about the legalization of drugs. Interestingly he didn't care about the cost of incarceration. For him, it was indeed no argument in the legalization debate. My 14-year-old self thought it was remarkable, nowadays I agree with him.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8634
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:16 am

ArciniegaJR wrote:
Do you not believe you're preventing a life that's already been set in motion?


Well.. in that case stopping a rape in progress is also preventing life that´s already set in motion. Much fewer than 50% of all fertilized eggs even implant (50% before missing the first mensis, 25 to 50% of the remaining after that iirc). How do you know that the decision to get an abortion is not ultimately triggered by the same bio-chemical events an otherwise failed pregnancy is? That would make the abort natural and the apportion medical help.......

Mincing words, calling it this or that is an excuse to stop the development of a human being from occurring. Its ending a life. Its early life, but its a life.


human beings are just animals, we may be slightly more intelligent than other smart animals, and we have the pleasure of opposing thumbs, but we are just mammals. Are you vegan? If not, shut up.

Why not allow abortions at month 9? Its not a person yet....


because it is viable outside the womb and can just be delivered instead?

Dutchy wrote:
For a school project, I spoke with a judge about the legalization of drugs. Interestingly he didn't care about the cost of incarceration. For him, it was indeed no argument in the legalization debate. My 14-year-old self thought it was remarkable, nowadays I agree with him.


For a Judge it makes sense to look at it that way, that is his job after all, for a society, not so much, since we do have opportunity costs and can spend money saved on incarceration/Executions into better emergency services or such. Judges don´t have to care about money, nation states can spend a EUR only once.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Zeppi
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:13 am

tommy1808 wrote:
It is kinda obvious

But is it?
Of course most criminals will not commit 'exactly' the same crime again, but one that falls in a similar category. A robber or rapist might well kill someone next time, one who previously commited manslaughter might "just" severely injure their victim next time. Whichever it is, any kind of repetition is one too many, even if it really were just the 1-3% with violent crimes. Some recent studies even put the numbers up at 80% for paedophilic sexual abuse like this one from Charite.

I'd just like to see a more thorough approach on violent criminals, that is all. Yes someone caught driving without a license or stealing an ice cream bar from a store is no big deal, some community work and that's that, not even worth being imprisoned for (unless that driver injures or kills someone, different story then). Causing material/financial damage should be in a whole different category of law than intentionally causing physical harm on someone. Those violent criminals should just be locked up and the key thrown away so to speak, they're a danger to society and should accordingly be treated as such.

Of course I can't give you a study on those 51% swinging, yet there have been plenty of such events in the last few years. Best a girl in her mid 20's that used to work in our company, as left-green as it gets, she was also one of the infamous "teddy bear throwers" in Munich. Worked in a refugee shelter helping knowingly criminal "refugees" with paperwork dealing with the police and authorities. Her stance being then that those guys really aren't criminals, it's all our fault anyway and they are traumatized and bla, you know the usual drivel, no differentiation whatsoever. Well, last year she was assaulted, by some of those she previously worked with. Now guess what, her next vote will be AfD, talk about swinging from one extreme to the other -.-

So someone who disagrees with the death penalty is a "do-gooder on a moral high horse"?


Not at all, if you read my previous posts you'd know I'm strictly against any form of death penalty. Rest see above. Oh you'll probably call me a right wing extremist/racist/xenophobe next, feel free.
 
tommy1808
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:54 am

Zeppi wrote:
even if it really were just the 1-3% with violent crimes.


Were? It is .... those are hart number.

Some recent studies even put the numbers up at 80% for paedophilic sexual abuse like this one from


Yup, the same study claims that the problem is not that those people get back in the streets, the problem according to the study is that courts only get an expert opinion in 10 to 15% of the cases.

I'd just like to see a more thorough approach on violent criminals, that is all.


How much better do you think it can get with re-offense numbers being between 1 and 3%?

Those violent criminals should just be locked up and the key thrown away so to speak, they're a danger to society and should accordingly be treated as such.


The Nazi´s totally agree with you and made laws accordingly, the "Gesetz gegen gefährliche Gewohnheitsverbrecher und über Maßregeln der Sicherung und Besserung".

In the US about 70% of all citzens commit a crime worthy of imprisonment at some point in their life. If 1 to 3% is reason enough to lock someone up, we need to lock everyone up.

Of course I can't give you a study on those 51% swinging, yet there have been plenty of such events in the last few years.


So you have no evidence and just made that up. Got that.

Best a girl in her mid 20's that used to work in our company, as left-green as it gets, she was also one of the infamous "teddy bear throwers" in Munich. Worked in a refugee shelter helping knowingly criminal "refugees" with paperwork dealing with the police and authorities. Her stance being then that those guys really aren't criminals, it's all our fault anyway and they are traumatized and bla, you know the usual drivel, no differentiation whatsoever. Well, last year she was assaulted, by some of those she previously worked with. Now guess what, her next vote will be AfD, talk about swinging from one extreme to the other -.-


Well, i guess there is a police report and perhaps court case number for that case. Since law enforcement here investigates any claim of assault when they hear about it, and every single of those claims made public in online media so far has turned out to be made up, people making those posting are actually being prosecuted, reporting a made up crime is a crime after all, i see no reason to believe your anecdote. And even it was true, it wouldn´t matter as it is just an anecdote.

Not at all, if you read my previous posts you'd know I'm strictly against any form of death penalty. Rest see above. Oh you'll probably call me a right wing extremist/racist/xenophobe next, feel free.


Since the position you are holding is a clear violation of the European Convention on Human Rights you are pretty much by definition an extremist. Not necessarily right wing though.

But one should always have a very critical look at ones position if even human right nightmares like Russia, Uzbekistan or Venezuela are more progressive on the issue as one self.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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scbriml
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:37 am

Zeppi wrote:
Oh you'll probably call me a right wing extremist/racist/xenophobe next, feel free.


I didn't call you anything to begin with. You're sounding a bit precious.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:29 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
For a school project, I spoke with a judge about the legalization of drugs. Interestingly he didn't care about the cost of incarceration. For him, it was indeed no argument in the legalization debate. My 14-year-old self thought it was remarkable, nowadays I agree with him.


For a Judge it makes sense to look at it that way, that is his job after all, for a society, not so much, since we do have opportunity costs and can spend money saved on incarceration/Executions into better emergency services or such. Judges don´t have to care about money, nation states can spend a EUR only once.


Sure, a € can only be spend once. But should that be the main argument here? What is the cheapest option? This is a moral question not a monetary one.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:59 am

Dutchy wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
For a school project, I spoke with a judge about the legalization of drugs. Interestingly he didn't care about the cost of incarceration. For him, it was indeed no argument in the legalization debate. My 14-year-old self thought it was remarkable, nowadays I agree with him.


For a Judge it makes sense to look at it that way, that is his job after all, for a society, not so much, since we do have opportunity costs and can spend money saved on incarceration/Executions into better emergency services or such. Judges don´t have to care about money, nation states can spend a EUR only once.


Sure, a € can only be spend once. But should that be the main argument here? What is the cheapest option? This is a moral question not a monetary one.


Not the cheapest, the most cost-effective use of those euros to prevent crime/safe life/public good and such.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Dutchy
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:57 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

For a Judge it makes sense to look at it that way, that is his job after all, for a society, not so much, since we do have opportunity costs and can spend money saved on incarceration/Executions into better emergency services or such. Judges don´t have to care about money, nation states can spend a EUR only once.


Sure, a € can only be spend once. But should that be the main argument here? What is the cheapest option? This is a moral question not a monetary one.


Not the cheapest, the most cost-effective use of those euros to prevent crime/safe life/public good and such.

Best regards
Thomas


Sure, that is indeed a political decision, what is the most cost-effective way to reach your goals. To put it extreme, the most effective way is to put someone on trail and after finding someone guilty, gun to his head and shoot. But nobody in his right mind would want such a system. So everybody excepts sort of cost for this, even someone whom is for the death penalty.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
c933103
Topic Author
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:50 pm

Breaking a b8it from previous discussions... it seems like from previous replies, like
tommy1808 wrote:
It is universally not just accepted, but simply true, that earth is 4+ Billion years old. There are plenty of people still putting that at 6 to 10k years. That doesn´t make them any more right than you are, and they maintain that "believe" for the same reason you do: fundamentalism, and as we learned from your posting above: sadism.

, it seems like the main point of argument for/against death sentence is indeed how people view what is human right and also the altitude against human life.

I have recently discussed with some people who support death penalty, and they believed that it should be the role of police and judges to prevent sending anyone who are innocent into death punishment. They believe it should not be used as an excuse for the justice system to be trying to get away from their duty of making correct judgement, instead the judegment systems should serve its role in delivering due punishment to those who have committed severe crimes.
And there's also a view that death punishment should definitely be used in order to cleanse those people from the society, otherwise via forgiveness and welfare system, those "bad" traits would remain in the society and eventually erode the society.
They also believe that this is what makes human different from mere animals, because human have the ability to maintain the society, and one of the instrument to help maintain the society is to deliver just punishment against those who have committed crimes. If death penalty is to be abandoned then that would signify a decay in human society structure just like what the Western society (Americas excluding USA + Europea + Oceania + some other countries economically/politically/religiously/culturally heavily influenced by the west) is currently experiencing (according to them). If all people are unconditionally allowed to live as a human and be part of the society, then that would be the rise of disorder that would turn human into animals.
They also believe that those who support abolition of death penalty are actually acting out of fake kindness, as being kind to criminals mean being cruel to ordinary people by allowing them to do whatever they want against them without paying their life as price and some also posted description from back in like Song dynasty in China that death penalty were abolished for some particular murder cases which lead to a surge in murder count against poor people by the rich as they can get away from that. And they also quoted from the Legalism school of teaching in ancient China, which talk about judges who are trying to avoid handing out death sentence despite they know the crime committed by criminals have reached the criteria for death sentence, are actually abusing their authority to give themselves a good-feeling. And they also pointed out that these teaching from history should be remembered and followed nowadays.
 
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scbriml
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:17 am

c933103 wrote:
I have recently discussed with some people who support death penalty, and they believed that it should be the role of police and judges to prevent sending anyone who are innocent into death punishment.


They're human, they make mistakes like the rest of us.

There's no doubt that innocent people have been executed for crimes they didn't commit, it's just not worth the risk.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
stratosphere
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:25 am

scbriml wrote:
c933103 wrote:
I have recently discussed with some people who support death penalty, and they believed that it should be the role of police and judges to prevent sending anyone who are innocent into death punishment.


They're human, they make mistakes like the rest of us.

There's no doubt that innocent people have been executed for crimes they didn't commit, it's just not worth the risk.


I totally agree. However, there are those who's guilt leaves no doubt. I still do not believe in the death penalty for circumstantial cases or even eye witness accounts because they are often flawed. I think we need to keep it but use it sparingly and for the worst of the worst and totally proven to be guilty by DNA and no 20 year appeals and no needle go back to the electric chair. There was no doubt Ted Bundy was guilty as was John Wayne Gacy it should be reserved for people like them. As for the rest we have to have life in prison without parole and mean it for other heinous crimes.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 132
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:13 am

[threeid][/threeid]
RetroRoo wrote:
I'm a little taken aback that apparently not killing people is a European ideal.

I mean... who needs history when we have this thread?

As you were, A.net, as you were...

Jeeeezus.


Not all Europe.

Belarus still has the death penalty.
 
c933103
Topic Author
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:19 am

stratosphere wrote:
scbriml wrote:
c933103 wrote:
I have recently discussed with some people who support death penalty, and they believed that it should be the role of police and judges to prevent sending anyone who are innocent into death punishment.


They're human, they make mistakes like the rest of us.

There's no doubt that innocent people have been executed for crimes they didn't commit, it's just not worth the risk.


I totally agree. However, there are those who's guilt leaves no doubt. I still do not believe in the death penalty for circumstantial cases or even eye witness accounts because they are often flawed. I think we need to keep it but use it sparingly and for the worst of the worst and totally proven to be guilty by DNA and no 20 year appeals and no needle go back to the electric chair. There was no doubt Ted Bundy was guilty as was John Wayne Gacy it should be reserved for people like them. As for the rest we have to have life in prison without parole and mean it for other heinous crimes.

DNA test only have something like 99% success rate iirc. That mean there will be a false report for every other 100 cases on average
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8634
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:12 am

c933103 wrote:
DNA test only have something like 99% success rate iirc. That mean there will be a false report for every other 100 cases on average


It is also not that difficult to place DNA at a scene and rugged as it is, easy to contaminate.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_of_Heilbronn

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
WIederling
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:19 am

Kiwirob wrote:
For America they probably don’t save any money but if they sorted out the appeals process and killed them within 2 years of conviction rather then dragging it out a decade or more I’m sure it would become cost effective. In China, Indonesia and other countries where they still do the right thing I’d like to see your proof that it costs more than life in prison.


How high is the false conviction rate resulting in a death penalty ( and in the US )?

50% ? Higher ? The legal system is fully dysfunctional in that respect.
( looks like every case you start to revisit has a good chance of collapsing.)

Killing faster is nothing more than a path to making wrong convictions stick.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:29 am

c933103 wrote:
DNA test only have something like 99% success rate iirc. That mean there will be a false report for every other 100 cases on average


99%? would be nice if ... .
In real world terms it is probably much lower.

( I don't even believe that 99% would hold for comparing two perfect specimen probes.
there just is too much chance to botch the specimen taking process.
The DNA multiplying process used to provide for the required sample size replicates
"anything" that looks like DNA. See the German DNA Phantom case. just one way
to botch it. )
Murphy is an optimist
 
Kiwirob
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:26 pm

WIederling wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
For America they probably don’t save any money but if they sorted out the appeals process and killed them within 2 years of conviction rather then dragging it out a decade or more I’m sure it would become cost effective. In China, Indonesia and other countries where they still do the right thing I’d like to see your proof that it costs more than life in prison.


How high is the false conviction rate resulting in a death penalty ( and in the US )?

50% ? Higher ? The legal system is fully dysfunctional in that respect.
( looks like every case you start to revisit has a good chance of collapsing.)

Killing faster is nothing more than a path to making wrong convictions stick.


Anders Breivik was obviously guilty there’s no chance of a false conviction here, cases like his are open and shut, this type of person deserves death.
 
WIederling
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:44 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Anders Breivik was obviously guilty there’s no chance of a false conviction here, cases like his are open and shut, this type of person deserves death.


Anders Breivik is a psycho. Representative for nothing.

Though shalt not make laws for single event upsets.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Aesma
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:57 pm

Applying the death penalty only if you're super sure someone is guilty is not a solution, it rather creates a huge problem, it would undermine the whole justice system.

Nobody deserves death, that's precisely why murder is a crime.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
trpmb6
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:25 pm

Anyone know if there is a study on death penalty views of people before and after a heinous crime is perpetrated against said person or a relative of said person?
 
WIederling
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:32 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Anyone know if there is a study on death penalty views of people before and after a heinous crime is perpetrated against said person or a relative of said person?


Think about why the legal system disallows lynching and why that is seen as a major advance.
Murphy is an optimist
 
tommy1808
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:19 am

Aesma wrote:
Applying the death penalty only if you're super sure someone is guilty is not a solution, it rather creates a huge problem, it would undermine the whole justice system.

Nobody deserves death, that's precisely why murder is a crime.


It simply is murder, just committed by a state.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Kiwirob
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:40 am

Aesma wrote:
Nobody deserves death, that's precisely why murder is a crime.


So you think someone like Anders with 76 murders under his belt should be allowed to live??
 
WIederling
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:06 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Nobody deserves death, that's precisely why murder is a crime.


So you think someone like Anders with 76 murders under his belt should be allowed to live??


Think about what you wrote there.
Staying alive is not something you "allow". Killing is an active act.

Additionally Breivik is complete unrepresentative in context of the average murder case.
( Should I seek out the Schopenhauer rule number for your type of rhetoric statement? )
Murphy is an optimist
 
Kiwirob
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:35 am

There’s plenty of murders where there is no doubt they did what they did.

Murders, serial rapists and child molesters all deserve the death penalty.

I’d love it if the child molester living down the street from me was executed like the three in Yemen last week, instead he got 4 years and is back home living in the same neighbourhood where he did what he did. We weren’t even advised he was coming back, he just turned up.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:30 pm

What about in Kenya where poachers are shot and killed in defence of wildlife? Does anyone have a problem with this? I find it quite surprising that a lot of people disagree with the death sentence for murder but are happy enough to see poachers shot and killed by game wardens protecting elephants and rhinos.
 
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Aesma
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:09 pm

Yemen is such a nice place to live ! Can't argue with you, you're too far out there. It's perfectly legal to marry little girls there...

Poachers in Kenya are KIA, usually they themselves don't hesitate to kill wildlife defenders, so it's no different from a cop shooting at someone armed and ready to shoot them.
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scbriml
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:53 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
What about in Kenya where poachers are shot and killed in defence of wildlife? Does anyone have a problem with this? I find it quite surprising that a lot of people disagree with the death sentence for murder but are happy enough to see poachers shot and killed by game wardens protecting elephants and rhinos.


No, it's clearly unacceptable if they're being shot 'just for being poachers'.

If they start shooting at the wardens, then they're fair game (pun intended!) Most documentaries I've seen about wildlife poaching in Africa, it's been emphasised over and over how heavily armed the poachers are and how dangerous it is for the wardens. I have no issue with the wardens protecting themselves.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:23 pm

Kenya has recently proposed reintroduction of the death penalty for poaching, prison sentences and fines aren’t working, elephants and rhinos continue to be shot, there continued existence trumps a poachers life IMO. The world would be a lesser place without elephants and rhinos a few less people won’t make a difference.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 49966.html
 
c933103
Topic Author
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:52 pm

Aesma wrote:
Yemen is such a nice place to live ! Can't argue with you, you're too far out there. It's perfectly legal to marry little girls there...

Poachers in Kenya are KIA, usually they themselves don't hesitate to kill wildlife defenders, so it's no different from a cop shooting at someone armed and ready to shoot them.

That comes back to the question: Is it better to shoot someone dead at the scene instead of sending them to death sentence via court procedure?
WIederling wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Nobody deserves death, that's precisely why murder is a crime.


So you think someone like Anders with 76 murders under his belt should be allowed to live??


Think about what you wrote there.
Staying alive is not something you "allow". Killing is an active act.

Additionally Breivik is complete unrepresentative in context of the average murder case.
( Should I seek out the Schopenhauer rule number for your type of rhetoric statement? )

If anyone opted not to enforce the action of killing the person when they have the ability to do so, that is just equivalent to allow them to continue their life.
 
tommy1808
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Re: EU attitude on death penalty.

Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:29 pm

c933103 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Yemen is such a nice place to live ! Can't argue with you, you're too far out there. It's perfectly legal to marry little girls there...

Poachers in Kenya are KIA, usually they themselves don't hesitate to kill wildlife defenders, so it's no different from a cop shooting at someone armed and ready to shoot them.

That comes back to the question: Is it better to shoot someone dead at the scene instead of sending them to death sentence via court procedure?


You so realize he is talking about poachers being shot in self defense, not on the spot executions?

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Thomas
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