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SAS A340
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Turkish democrasy

Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:50 pm

In true democratic spirit, President Erdogan has appointed his son-in-law as finance minister.... of 80 million inhabitans, he was the best qualified for the job.. , what are the oddd for that? Anyway, congrats to Turkey, you have many bright years ahead of you in true democratic spirit, as Erdogan said.
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:28 pm

Well, the minister of foreign affairs said that Turkey should become a member of the EU asap. A nice plot to have the EU say "no" and have an "enemy" from abroad to piss on. This is dictatorship course 101: create a (perceived) external enemy and a group will unite behind the leader. You see it with Iran: America and Israel. You see it with Russia: EU and America.
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Dutchy
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:06 pm

BTW I like to see Erdogan threated like this:

Image

Figurally of course, I am agianst violence :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:15 pm

He also fired 18000 people and banned 12 civil-society groups, three newspapers and a television broadcaster to celebrate his victory.
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mercure1
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:01 am

SAS A340 wrote:
In true democratic spirit, President Erdogan has appointed his son-in-law as finance minister.... of 80 million inhabitans, he was the best qualified for the job.. , what are the oddd for that? .


Mr.Albayrak is not some random person picked out of thin air..
He does have business and finance background. He has a US MBA, been a CFO, GM and CEO at Turkish companies.
He was also elected to parliament and since 2015 has served as the Minister of Energy.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:11 am

Turkey will flip to Russia/China in the next 5 years. It's nearly inevitable.

NATO needs to make sure Greece has and maintains the military capability of closing the Bosporus straits. It's going to be their new responsibility.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:45 am

I’m amazed that the US hasn’t cancelled the F35 sale to Turkey, I don’t see how anyone can see them as a reliable partner, they should also be expelled from NATO.
 
JJJ
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:06 am

Kiwirob wrote:
I’m amazed that the US hasn’t cancelled the F35 sale to Turkey, I don’t see how anyone can see them as a reliable partner, they should also be expelled from NATO.


It will eventually be cancelled. It would be giving away all the radar signature intelligence for the F35 to the Russians. Those Turkish S400 would have plenty of Russian technicians for a while.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:53 am

mercure1 wrote:
SAS A340 wrote:
In true democratic spirit, President Erdogan has appointed his son-in-law as finance minister.... of 80 million inhabitans, he was the best qualified for the job.. , what are the oddd for that? .


Mr.Albayrak is not some random person picked out of thin air..
He does have business and finance background. He has a US MBA, been a CFO, GM and CEO at Turkish companies.
He was also elected to parliament and since 2015 has served as the Minister of Energy.


If he got all these jobs because of his father in law, it doesn't mean much. If he had been employed in other countries, maybe...

Financial markets aren't convinced and the Lira tumbled on the announcement.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:54 am

Aesma wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
SAS A340 wrote:
In true democratic spirit, President Erdogan has appointed his son-in-law as finance minister.... of 80 million inhabitans, he was the best qualified for the job.. , what are the oddd for that? .


Mr.Albayrak is not some random person picked out of thin air..
He does have business and finance background. He has a US MBA, been a CFO, GM and CEO at Turkish companies.
He was also elected to parliament and since 2015 has served as the Minister of Energy.


If he got all these jobs because of his father in law, it doesn't mean much. If he had been employed in other countries, maybe...

Financial markets aren't convinced and the Lira tumbled on the announcement.


That is quite an understatement. Erdogan has a lot of power, he has the power to write the laws, he has the parliament in his pocket, so he can do as he pleases. A soft coup as he becomes a dictator.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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CrimsonNL
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:18 pm

Careful now, you guys will get Anet blocked in Turkey. All this talk is clearly a terrorist conspiracy in the making!
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SAS A340
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:10 pm

CrimsonNL wrote:
Careful now, you guys will get Anet blocked in Turkey. All this talk is clearly a terrorist conspiracy in the making!

Could be.... in true Turkish democrasy spirit :duck:
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Varsity1
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:21 pm

Erdogan is the closest thing to hitler we have seen since hitler. Maybe more a Stalin tbh, more internal jailing/violence.
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janders
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:22 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
I’m amazed that the US hasn’t cancelled the F35 sale to Turkey, I don’t see how anyone can see them as a reliable partner, they should also be expelled from NATO.


There is the little detail that Turkey is a founding member of the F-35 consortium and is a significant manufacturing subcontractor and future overhaul center for the type.

Even if one were to go down the path, not only would all partners need to figure out how to compensate Turkey for its investments, but more importantly figure out how to reconstitute the program including figuring out how to source items where Turkey is the sole source vendor.


Dutchy wrote:
Erdogan has a lot of power, he has the power to write the laws, he has the parliament in his pocket, so he can do as he pleases. A soft coup as he becomes a dictator.


Majority of people happily voted for him, the AK Party, and their policies in election after election. In this last election, the strongest opposition party only managed 30 percent of the vote.

Like in the U.S, elections have consequences, and party/people in charge have been given a mandate.

Also if Erdogan is likened to a dictator, lets be honest and also then look at Ataturk who took under guise of Presidential power himself purged a nation greatly in the pursuit of his own views with far fewer checks and balances than today. Just because one followed a liberal western point of view many are too quick to demonize someone that does not tow similar liberal propaganda.


JJJ wrote:
Those Turkish S400 would have plenty of Russian technicians for a while.


Turkey got those S400s as they are superior to US Patriot systems, and were offered both cheaper with faster delivery and implementation timelines than US could offer.


Varsity1 wrote:
Erdogan is the closest thing to hitler we have seen since hitler. Maybe more a Stalin tbh, more internal jailing/violence.


:rotfl: You really need better historical memory.

Look up folks like Idi Amin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Sani Abacha, CharlesTaylor, Saddam Hussein, Kim Dynasty, Khomeini, etc.

Erdogan is a dove compared to those and also has done immense things for the nation economically, infrastructure, religious freedoms, education, medical care etc.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:28 pm

janders wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Erdogan has a lot of power, he has the power to write the laws, he has the parliament in his pocket, so he can do as he pleases. A soft coup as he becomes a dictator.


Majority of people happily voted for him, the AK Party, and their policies in election after election. In this last election, the strongest opposition party only managed 30 percent of the vote.

Like in the U.S, elections have consequences, and party/people in charge have been given a mandate.

Also if Erdogan is likened to a dictator, lets be honest and also then look at Ataturk who took under guise of Presidential power himself purged a nation greatly in the pursuit of his own views with far fewer checks and balances than today. Just because one followed a liberal western point of view many are too quick to demonize someone that does not tow similar liberal propaganda.


I don't think the majority should be allowed to vote for demolishing democracy. This is what is happening in Turkey. This has nothing to do with a liberal western viewpoint, just with plain common sense. And with Erdogan the Turkish democracy isn't safe, you only have to look at tens of thousands whom got arrested or lost their jobs because they don't agree with Erdogan.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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UPlog
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:57 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Erdogan is the closest thing to hitler we have seen since hitler. Maybe more a Stalin tbh, more internal jailing/violence.


:shakehead: :shakehead: :shakehead:

Dutchy wrote:

I don't think the majority should be allowed to vote for demolishing democracy. This is what is happening in Turkey. This has nothing to do with a liberal western viewpoint, just with plain common sense. And with Erdogan the Turkish democracy isn't safe, you only have to look at tens of thousands whom got arrested or lost their jobs because they don't agree with Erdogan.


What is "democracy"? The Dutch way, US way, Indian way, Singapore way, South African way, Egyptian way, Thai way, Hungarian way etc?

Why should the Turkish people not be able to define what their system of government should be?

Personally, I think its a fallacy trap the West falls into by endlessly raising the alleged pure flag of "democracy" and force nations to follow some liberal western interpretation when their own systems are often just as rotten as well.
 
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UPlog
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:58 pm

sorry duplicate. having problems with quoting.
Last edited by UPlog on Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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UPlog
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:02 pm

Oh an for all those that wonder why the West is friends and does business with Turkey, I ask then why we are friends with nations like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel, Vietnam, China, South Africa, etc.

Certainly, if we are going to follow some moralistic high road against Turkey, we should have long ago cast of friendship with other states that either ignore or bend our view of democracy and human rights themselves.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:02 pm

janders wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
I’m amazed that the US hasn’t cancelled the F35 sale to Turkey, I don’t see how anyone can see them as a reliable partner, they should also be expelled from NATO.


There is the little detail that Turkey is a founding member of the F-35 consortium and is a significant manufacturing subcontractor and future overhaul center for the type.

Even if one were to go down the path, not only would all partners need to figure out how to compensate Turkey for its investments, but more importantly figure out how to reconstitute the program including figuring out how to source items where Turkey is the sole source vendor.


Dutchy wrote:
Erdogan has a lot of power, he has the power to write the laws, he has the parliament in his pocket, so he can do as he pleases. A soft coup as he becomes a dictator.


Majority of people happily voted for him, the AK Party, and their policies in election after election. In this last election, the strongest opposition party only managed 30 percent of the vote.

Like in the U.S, elections have consequences, and party/people in charge have been given a mandate.

Also if Erdogan is likened to a dictator, lets be honest and also then look at Ataturk who took under guise of Presidential power himself purged a nation greatly in the pursuit of his own views with far fewer checks and balances than today. Just because one followed a liberal western point of view many are too quick to demonize someone that does not tow similar liberal propaganda.


JJJ wrote:
Those Turkish S400 would have plenty of Russian technicians for a while.


Turkey got those S400s as they are superior to US Patriot systems, and were offered both cheaper with faster delivery and implementation timelines than US could offer.


Varsity1 wrote:
Erdogan is the closest thing to hitler we have seen since hitler. Maybe more a Stalin tbh, more internal jailing/violence.


:rotfl: You really need better historical memory.

Look up folks like Idi Amin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Sani Abacha, CharlesTaylor, Saddam Hussein, Kim Dynasty, Khomeini, etc.

Erdogan is a dove compared to those and also has done immense things for the nation economically, infrastructure, religious freedoms, education, medical care etc.


You're drunk on the kool aide.

Turkey's economic prosparity is on borrowed time.

Hitler was elected, had great jobs and economic potential. Watching Erdouchbags's thugs fist fight reporters in the US is all I needed to see. He's a loser trying to consolidate power by blaming some single guy living a normal life 6,000 miles away. Nobody in the west is impressed.

The S400 is a bunch of russian hot air. Look at how well it has protected assad's airbases. Your F-35's will probably end up in the Greek airforce.
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UPlog
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:03 pm

sorry. duplicate..
 
Varsity1
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:06 pm

UPlog wrote:
Oh an for all those that wonder why the West is friends and does business with Turkey, I ask then why we are friends with nations like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel, Vietnam, China, South Africa, etc.

Certainly, if we are going to follow some moralistic high road against Turkey, we should have long ago cast of friendship with other states that either ignore or bend our view of democracy and human rights themselves.


All of the countries you name are facing/have faced strife and trying to cope. We understand that. Erdumbo is voluntarily creating it.

Your 'Coup' was a reichstag fire. None of that was real.
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Dutchy
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:11 pm

UPlog wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Erdogan is the closest thing to hitler we have seen since hitler. Maybe more a Stalin tbh, more internal jailing/violence.


:shakehead: :shakehead: :shakehead:

Dutchy wrote:

I don't think the majority should be allowed to vote for demolishing democracy. This is what is happening in Turkey. This has nothing to do with a liberal western viewpoint, just with plain common sense. And with Erdogan the Turkish democracy isn't safe, you only have to look at tens of thousands whom got arrested or lost their jobs because they don't agree with Erdogan.


What is "democracy"? The Dutch way, US way, Indian way, Singapore way, South African way, Egyptian way, Thai way, Hungarian way etc?

Why should the Turkish people not be able to define what their system of government should be?

Personally, I think its a fallacy trap the West falls into by endlessly raising the alleged pure flag of "democracy" and force nations to follow some liberal western interpretation when their own systems are often just as rotten as well.


So universal human rights only apply to Europeans? Is that what you are saying?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:44 pm

UPlog wrote:
Oh an for all those that wonder why the West is friends and does business with Turkey, I ask then why we are friends with nations like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel, Vietnam, China, South Africa, etc.


i have no idea why we are.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:49 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So universal human rights only apply to Europeans? Is that what you are saying?


Universal human rights aren’t worth the paper they are written on, the notion that these are worth anything is stupid, govts all over the world pay lip service to them at best, and break them all the time.

Also for a Dutchman to talk about human rights is laughable, you’re a nation of cowards who allowed a massacre of thousands to happen, you guys didn’t fight for those men’s rights your soldiers sold them down the river without a second thought.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:16 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So universal human rights only apply to Europeans? Is that what you are saying?


Universal human rights aren’t worth the paper they are written on, the notion that these are worth anything is stupid, govts all over the world pay lip service to them at best, and break them all the time.

Also for a Dutchman to talk about human rights is laughable, you’re a nation of cowards who allowed a massacre of thousands to happen, you guys didn’t fight for those men’s rights your soldiers sold them down the river without a second thought.


You never seize to amaze me, Rob. You said you are a New Zealander and now living in Norway. Two countries which try to uphold human rights. From your armchair, you criticize the very things that protect your rights.

As for the other comment, it isn't even worth to refute it, it is just that stupid, especially from someone whom idolizes Putin's regime. Stup so low to do a personal attack, I expected better from you, Rob.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:41 pm

The second comment does warrant mentioning, you’re parroting on about human rights whilst your country allowed the largest mass murder in Europe since WW2, what happened to their human rights, this is a prime example of my point, human rights don’t mean a thing if you’re not prepared to fight for them. Obviously the human rights for Dutchbat soliders were far higher than the human rights of the 8000 Bosnians who they allowed to die.

I’d put money on it that a battalion New Zealand or Norwegian soldiers would have fought for those people and tried to uphold their humans rights until the end.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:50 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
The second comment does warrant mentioning, you’re parroting on about human rights whilst your country allowed the largest mass murder in Europe since WW2, what happened to their human rights, this is a prime example of my point, human rights don’t mean a thing if you’re not prepared to fight for them. Obviously the human rights for Dutchbat soliders were far higher than the human rights of the 8000 Bosnians who they allowed to die.

I’d put money on it that a battalion New Zealand or Norwegian soldiers would have fought for those people and tried to uphold their humans rights until the end.


I know, Rob, you are just trolling, still shame on you to use that in a deliberately gross simplified way, so you can frame it like you want. And shame on you that you piss all over your rights as an armchair knight.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:14 pm

The Dutch govt breaks women’s rights to religious freedom everyday due to the burka ban, the US govt breaks it’s citizens human rights daily by not providing universal healthcare. Human rights are bullshit and generally not bothered with by govts unless they want to make points on some other govt.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:28 pm

So laws are broken all the time, so all the laws are bullshit?

The universal declaration of human rights has been the basis for the European Convention on Human Rights which is very much your protection and can be forced to be upheld by the courts. Can't believe I have this debate with someone whom enjoys the freedom protected by this every day and still elects to piss all over it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
JJJ
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:56 am

janders wrote:

JJJ wrote:
Those Turkish S400 would have plenty of Russian technicians for a while.


Turkey got those S400s as they are superior to US Patriot systems, and were offered both cheaper with faster delivery and implementation timelines than US could offer.


Which is cool and that, but as a NATO member they should have known better.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:17 am

Dutchy wrote:
So laws are broken all the time, so all the laws are bullshit?

The universal declaration of human rights has been the basis for the European Convention on Human Rights which is very much your protection and can be forced to be upheld by the courts. Can't believe I have this debate with someone whom enjoys the freedom protected by this every day and still elects to piss all over it.


The difference between laws and human rights is the The Declaration affirms an individual's rights, but it’s not legally binding, laws on the other hand are.

It doesn’t matter that I live in a country that respects human rights, if other counties don’t it’s not my problem. Turkey can do whatever it likes within it’s borders with its citizens, who is going to enforce those rights you speak of?? Nobody that’s who because they aren’t enforceable, look at the situation with the Palestinians, their human rights are shit on every single day, who is looking after their rights?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:06 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So laws are broken all the time, so all the laws are bullshit?

The universal declaration of human rights has been the basis for the European Convention on Human Rights which is very much your protection and can be forced to be upheld by the courts. Can't believe I have this debate with someone whom enjoys the freedom protected by this every day and still elects to piss all over it.


The difference between laws and human rights is the The Declaration affirms an individual's rights, but it’s not legally binding, laws on the other hand are.

It doesn’t matter that I live in a country that respects human rights, if other counties don’t it’s not my problem. Turkey can do whatever it likes within it’s borders with its citizens, who is going to enforce those rights you speak of?? Nobody that’s who because they aren’t enforceable, look at the situation with the Palestinians, their human rights are shit on every single day, who is looking after their rights?


Ok, then you don't have any right to speak of other countries. None. You can have no opinion of what is happening in Jemen, or Syria, or the genocide in Rwanda, everything is allowed in your world. And you can have no opinion about Srebrenica.

You are a cynic and I am much more an idealist. So that clashes. I have no sympathy or your point of view, I don't want to live in a world without ideals.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
artofzen
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:38 am

Quoting Varsity1

Watching Erdouchbags's thugs fist fight reporters in the US is all I needed to see


Were they reporters? I recall them being anti-Erdogan protesters of Turkish origin living in the US.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:59 am

Dutchy wrote:

You are a cynic and I am much more an idealist. So that clashes. I have no sympathy or your point of view, I don't want to live in a world without ideals.


You already live in a world without ideals, I’m surprised you haven’t worked it out.

Might is right, money rules, the little people don’t matter, it’s always been like this and always will be like this.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:13 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
The Dutch govt breaks women’s rights to religious freedom everyday due to the burka ban,

Is this where we are supposed to believe that burkas are about empowering women?

On the one hand, I absolutely appreciate religious freedoms. On the other hand, I believe that there should reasonable restraints on those freedoms when they are causing actual harm. For example, I am all for a child receiving medical care when their parent's religion does not believe in medical intervention.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:28 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
The Dutch govt breaks women’s rights to religious freedom everyday due to the burka ban,

Is this where we are supposed to believe that burkas are about empowering women?

On the one hand, I absolutely appreciate religious freedoms. On the other hand, I believe that there should reasonable restraints on those freedoms when they are causing actual harm. For example, I am all for a child receiving medical care when their parent's religion does not believe in medical intervention.


Personally I don’t like burkas at all, but I also believe in a persons right to wear what they want. Banning the burka is against a persons human rights. Which is why codifying human rights is bs, we break them all the time, they really are pointless.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:36 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Personally I don’t like burkas at all, but I also believe in a persons right to wear what they want.

And this is where you are losing me. I just don't believe that women really want to wear a burka. Put another way, I don't believe that it is a completely free and voluntary choice. If it was, I would have no problem with them.

Most prisoners don't want to wear orange jumpsuits either.
 
artofzen
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:36 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Personally I don’t like burkas at all, but I also believe in a persons right to wear what they want.

And this is where you are losing me. I just don't believe that women really want to wear a burka. Put another way, I don't believe that it is a completely free and voluntary choice. If it was, I would have no problem with them.

Most prisoners don't want to wear orange jumpsuits either.

One relative of mine wears niqab out of choice, she used to wear stiletto heels and figure hugging western wear accented with a nice bob hairstyle at one time, her husband was not religious, she made him.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:45 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You are a cynic and I am much more an idealist. So that clashes. I have no sympathy or your point of view, I don't want to live in a world without ideals.


You already live in a world without ideals, I’m surprised you haven’t worked it out.

Might is right, money rules, the little people don’t matter, it’s always been like this and always will be like this.


So speaks a cynic......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:51 pm

artofzen wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Personally I don’t like burkas at all, but I also believe in a persons right to wear what they want.

And this is where you are losing me. I just don't believe that women really want to wear a burka. Put another way, I don't believe that it is a completely free and voluntary choice. If it was, I would have no problem with them.

Most prisoners don't want to wear orange jumpsuits either.

One relative of mine wears niqab out of choice, she used to wear stiletto heels and figure hugging western wear accented with a nice bob hairstyle at one time, her husband was not religious, she made him.

Well it’s case closed then.
 
2122M
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Re: Turkish democrasy

Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:01 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Personally I don’t like burkas at all, but I also believe in a persons right to wear what they want.

And this is where you are losing me. I just don't believe that women really want to wear a burka. Put another way, I don't believe that it is a completely free and voluntary choice. If it was, I would have no problem with them.

Most prisoners don't want to wear orange jumpsuits either.


Have you had a lot of conversations with Muslim women about this issue? Or are you just assuming you know what's going on?

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