User avatar
trpmb6
Topic Author
Posts: 2720
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:00 pm

EU fines Google $5 billion over Android antitrust abuse


CNBC wrote:
European Union regulators have slapped Alphabet-owned Google with a 4.34 billion euro ($5 billion) antitrust fine for abusing the dominance of its Android mobile operating system, which is by far the most popular smartphone OS in the world.

European officials say Google's parent company has unfairly favored its own services by forcing smartphone makers to pre-install Google apps like Chrome and Search in a bundle with its app store, Play. It also said Google violated competition rules by sometimes paying phone makers to exclusively pre-install Google search on their devices or sign agreements not to sell phones that run other modified, or "forked," versions of Android.



I find this to be a rather absurd argument by the commission. Android is far less restrictive than Apple's iOS. This would be like telling microsoft they can't pre-install internet explorer. Which has Bing and its associated revenue generating ad service. Google needs revenue from ad services to fund their OS support and development.
 
FatCat
Posts: 960
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:12 pm

They're never gonna pay.
The litigation will be taken to courts and eventually the big G will pay 1/10 of that sum.
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 9271
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:51 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
EU fines Google $5 billion over Android antitrust abuse


CNBC wrote:
European Union regulators have slapped Alphabet-owned Google with a 4.34 billion euro ($5 billion) antitrust fine for abusing the dominance of its Android mobile operating system, which is by far the most popular smartphone OS in the world.

European officials say Google's parent company has unfairly favored its own services by forcing smartphone makers to pre-install Google apps like Chrome and Search in a bundle with its app store, Play. It also said Google violated competition rules by sometimes paying phone makers to exclusively pre-install Google search on their devices or sign agreements not to sell phones that run other modified, or "forked," versions of Android.



I find this to be a rather absurd argument by the commission. Android is far less restrictive than Apple's iOS. This would be like telling microsoft they can't pre-install internet explorer. Which has Bing and its associated revenue generating ad service. Google needs revenue from ad services to fund their OS support and development.


Well.... They did tell Microsoft the same thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft ... Commission
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Topic Author
Posts: 2720
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:17 pm

casinterest wrote:
Well.... They did tell Microsoft the same thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft ... Commission


I was actually coming back to post that exact wikipedia page as a friend of mine just pointed that out to me as well.

So the precedent is there for the EU to continue with the fines. Though monetarily a much larger sum for Google. I still don't like this.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 9271
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:23 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Well.... They did tell Microsoft the same thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft ... Commission


I was actually coming back to post that exact wikipedia page as a friend of mine just pointed that out to me as well.

So the precedent is there for the EU to continue with the fines. Though monetarily a much larger sum for Google. I still don't like this.


I don't like it either. I didn't' like it when they did it to Microsoft. However the issue comes down to licensing charges. Unlike Apple which manufactures it's own OS and phone, Google is licensing out it's software and making manufacturers and carriers take certain portions of software as part of the deal. I don't think the EU is correct that this hampers the usage of the phone, as most of Google's software is actually quite useful. I use a lot of it on my iphone. However the EU has these rules to protect other software providers.

It will be interesting to see if this goes the same way as IE or not.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Topic Author
Posts: 2720
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:29 pm

The automatic nature of the BrowserChoice.eu feature was dropped in Windows 7 Service Pack 1 in February 2011 and remained absent for 14 months despite Microsoft reporting that it was still present, subsequently described by Microsoft as a "technical error". As a result, in March 2013 the European Commission fined Microsoft €561 million to deter companies from reneging on settlement promises.


That just seems predatory if you ask me. In the US fining a company to make an example of them never goes well.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10868
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:45 pm

casinterest wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Well.... They did tell Microsoft the same thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft ... Commission


I was actually coming back to post that exact wikipedia page as a friend of mine just pointed that out to me as well.

So the precedent is there for the EU to continue with the fines. Though monetarily a much larger sum for Google. I still don't like this.


I don't like it either. I didn't' like it when they did it to Microsoft. However the issue comes down to licensing charges. Unlike Apple which manufactures it's own OS and phone, Google is licensing out it's software and making manufacturers and carriers take certain portions of software as part of the deal. I don't think the EU is correct that this hampers the usage of the phone, as most of Google's software is actually quite useful. I use a lot of it on my iphone. However the EU has these rules to protect other software providers.

It will be interesting to see if this goes the same way as IE or not.


Those are not really the reasons. They use android and it's ecosystem to prevent competition in the search engine market, that does not have any correlation with mobile phones or operating systems. If you want play store access, you not just have to install chrome and Google search as default and you can also not have any phone in your line-up without those.

That limits competition not by performance, but by contract. And as a dominating player you are not allowed to do that, because i, the consumer, get fewer choices. I can not buy a Samsung Note, without getting Google search as default and Samsung is not even allowed to have it in their vast line up.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
787Driver
Posts: 458
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:05 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:43 pm

Margrethe Vestager explains why in this BBC article. It makes sense based on what she says

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44858238
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10868
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:00 pm

787Driver wrote:
Margrethe Vestager explains why in this BBC article. It makes sense based on what she says

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44858238


Interesting bit, the probe was kicked off via a complaint lobbed by a US based organisation dominated by US companies.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairSearch

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10021
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:31 pm

I think it is good for consumers and citizens - mostly the same people, what are the odds ;-) -. Tech companies seem to have to much power, unfortunately. Competitors are good for the market and innovation. The EU has the power in terms of legislation, will and of the number of consumers to limit the power of these companies.

In the end a good example of the EU working for its citizens and that big capital hasn't taken over all of the politics in Brussels.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10021
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:34 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
I still don't like this.


What exactly don't you like? You can still use Andriod, you can still put the Google apps on your phone if you want. The only thing is it isn't mandatory anymore so you have more options. You can use them at your discretion, not Google. What is not to like ;)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Topic Author
Posts: 2720
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:28 pm

Dutchy wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
I still don't like this.


What exactly don't you like? You can still use Andriod, you can still put the Google apps on your phone if you want. The only thing is it isn't mandatory anymore so you have more options. You can use them at your discretion, not Google. What is not to like ;)


I'm certainly not against choice. And the choice is already there. If you don't like the google search functions then you don't have to use it and can install your own.

What bugs me is I don't understand why Google can't package all their software together in their OS. They're developing it, why shouldn't they also be allowed to have their apps installed with it.

It's not like Google tells samsung, you can't install your samsung apps on your samsung phone with the android OS. To the contrary, Samsung has lots of pre-installed crap too. If I don't like those apps guess what, I go to the play store and I find the one I do like. I don't go to the regulatory commission and complain about it.

Honestly, the google apps are generally superior anyways.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17475
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:37 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
That just seems predatory if you ask me. In the US fining a company to make an example of them never goes well.


But this is the EU, not America. The EU has shown they're prepared to take on the big tech companies and win. Big time.

Google is being fined because they broke the law, not "to make an example of them". They can pay this without even noticing it. If they're smart, they will.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1661
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:38 pm

I don’t really get it. It’s Google’s OS, so shouldn’t they get to do what they want? Isn’t competition having competing OS’s - which exist? If you don’t like Android you can always go with another option.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10021
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:44 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
I don’t really get it. It’s Google’s OS, so shouldn’t they get to do what they want? Isn’t competition having competing OS’s - which exist? If you don’t like Android you can always go with another option.


That is the whole point, Google has a too dominate position that the consumer cannot make a real choice, misuse of your dominance and that is illegal.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
VTKillarney
Posts: 1661
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:45 pm

Dutchy wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
I don’t really get it. It’s Google’s OS, so shouldn’t they get to do what they want? Isn’t competition having competing OS’s - which exist? If you don’t like Android you can always go with another option.


That is the whole point, Google has a too dominate position that the consumer cannot make a real choice, misuse of your dominance and that is illegal.

Why can’t they? iOS is an alternative, after all.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:31 am

VTKillarney wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
I don’t really get it. It’s Google’s OS, so shouldn’t they get to do what they want? Isn’t competition having competing OS’s - which exist? If you don’t like Android you can always go with another option.


That is the whole point, Google has a too dominate position that the consumer cannot make a real choice, misuse of your dominance and that is illegal.

Why can’t they? iOS is an alternative, after all.


No, it isn't, not in these instances. You can't install iOS on a non-Apple device, and third party device manufacturers cannot license it, so it's not an alternative at all.
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Topic Author
Posts: 2720
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:31 pm

moo wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

That is the whole point, Google has a too dominate position that the consumer cannot make a real choice, misuse of your dominance and that is illegal.

Why can’t they? iOS is an alternative, after all.


No, it isn't, not in these instances. You can't install iOS on a non-Apple device, and third party device manufacturers cannot license it, so it's not an alternative at all.


But that isn't google's fault. That's Apple restricting users to using only their devices. That seems like more of an attack on consumers than what google does.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10021
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:32 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
moo wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
Why can’t they? iOS is an alternative, after all.


No, it isn't, not in these instances. You can't install iOS on a non-Apple device, and third party device manufacturers cannot license it, so it's not an alternative at all.


But that isn't google's fault. That's Apple restricting users to using only their devices. That seems like more of an attack on consumers than what google does.


The EU doesn't agree with you. We will see if this fine is upheld in court.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3062
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:42 pm

FWIW, Apple may very wel be her next target: expect a record fine once that investigation is ended and rightfully so.
The EU is known to HATE companies abusing their market leading position in one field to push other products of theirs to the detriment of competitors who can not benefit from such advantage...
I wouldnt be surprised if the EC ultimately orders a break up of Apple even...
The EC reportedly came very close in the case against Microsoft and that's basically just a software company, whereas Apple is both hardware and software.
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Topic Author
Posts: 2720
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:27 pm

Might as well as go after Boeing and Airbus while they're at it [/sarcasam]
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11839
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:38 pm

The US has no problem lobbing (I know this verb but Google Chrome doesn't, apparently) huge multi billion dollar fines on EU banks, isn't that predatory too ?

I agree the EU should drop this and instead sink US banks who crashed the world economy, making billions of people poorer, with probably many deaths as a result, without much consequence to them.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Topic Author
Posts: 2720
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:32 pm

I definitely think the US banks that were giving subprime mortgages (with predatory behavior targeting people who had no business taking loans in these amounts) should have been held more accountable. The problem is US regulations pushed through allowed it.

But that's off topic somewhat.

I generally find the fining of foreign entities as a little odd. I would think there would be some sort of cooperation at the top level in trying to handle such things. But if you're doing business in that country you need to adhere to their laws as well. This is one of the problems of globalization. What might be legal in the united states may not be in the EU and that makes it difficult when you're producing a product that is intended for use across multiple platforms that could be used anywhere in the world.
 
jetero
Posts: 4457
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:32 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
I generally find the fining of foreign entities as a little odd. I would think there would be some sort of cooperation at the top level in trying to handle such things. But if you're doing business in that country you need to adhere to their laws as well. This is one of the problems of globalization. What might be legal in the united states may not be in the EU and that makes it difficult when you're producing a product that is intended for use across multiple platforms that could be used anywhere in the world.


Ermmmmmmmmmmm . . .

Do you really find any of the above "odd"?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10868
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:27 pm

Dutchy wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
moo wrote:

No, it isn't, not in these instances. You can't install iOS on a non-Apple device, and third party device manufacturers cannot license it, so it's not an alternative at all.


But that isn't google's fault. That's Apple restricting users to using only their devices. That seems like more of an attack on consumers than what google does.


The EU doesn't agree with you. We will see if this fine is upheld in court.


For the simple reason that Apple doesn't give iOS to others. Apple has no power to force *other* OEMs to adopt their search and their browser, that is the customers decission alone, and therefore no effect of what choices I have in the market. If Apple doesn't want to ship without this or that app, that is apples and the customers choice only.
Google forces companies to offer no Google products at all, or on all devises running that open source OS. That limits customer choice. If I want to use Android, open source, and a Samsung, a company unrelated to Google, phone, why would or should Google have the power to prevent Samsung from offering that?

And it's not just US companies, I can chose where I get my car fixed or maintained, without effects on warranty. Car OEM are required to sell all the tools, parts and software to any garage that wants them. That was a serious kick in the nuts, they where forced to end their anti-competitive practices as well. Iirc that was the first time the EU crashed a business model that hindered competition.

Its like Bosch telling Volkswagen "you can use our anti-skid system, but only if you install it in all cars, no exception, from now on and kick out all the other suppliers.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10868
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:29 pm

jetero wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
I generally find the fining of foreign entities as a little odd. I would think there would be some sort of cooperation at the top level in trying to handle such things. But if you're doing business in that country you need to adhere to their laws as well. This is one of the problems of globalization. What might be legal in the united states may not be in the EU and that makes it difficult when you're producing a product that is intended for use across multiple platforms that could be used anywhere in the world.


Ermmmmmmmmmmm . . .

Do you really find any of the above "odd"?


I work in a 60 people company with highly regulated products, if we can manage to comply with the dozens of jurisdictions we ship to, I am sure Google could abide the law.
It is not as if they had not been told what the law is, they chose to ignore that and play for inertia and rely on their lawyers.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
jetero
Posts: 4457
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:50 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
jetero wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
I generally find the fining of foreign entities as a little odd. I would think there would be some sort of cooperation at the top level in trying to handle such things. But if you're doing business in that country you need to adhere to their laws as well. This is one of the problems of globalization. What might be legal in the united states may not be in the EU and that makes it difficult when you're producing a product that is intended for use across multiple platforms that could be used anywhere in the world.


Ermmmmmmmmmmm . . .

Do you really find any of the above "odd"?


I work in a 60 people company with highly regulated products, if we can manage to comply with the dozens of jurisdictions we ship to, I am sure Google could abide the law.
It is not as if they had not been told what the law is, they chose to ignore that and play for inertia and rely on their lawyers.

Best regards
Thomas


Ironically, in describing "one of the problems of globalization," his implicit argument is for a globalist regulatory regime.

Such frameworks exist--I don't disagree.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 707
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:03 pm

Are Google obliged not to pay? Forgive my ignorance, but what would happen if they just said no?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10868
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:05 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Are Google obliged not to pay? Forgive my ignorance, but what would happen if they just said no?


The same that happens if you don't pay. Someone appointed by a court stops by and gets the money.
Plenty of assets within reach and they do get a lot of turnover from their EU business, that can simply be withheld on the way to Google's bank accounts.
If they don't comply with regards to their violation, you can add 5% worldwide daily turnover per day. Not paying a court ordered fine also isn't good for your credit rating and that ain't good for your share price.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Topic Author
Posts: 2720
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:09 pm

My customer choice is that I am purchasing a phone with the android operating system. Surely samsung could offer to sell phones with other operating systems correct? Or am I misunderstanding the terms of the agreements between google and samsung (et. al)? My understanding is that google pays samsung (et. al) to package their OS with their apps. The end user still has the options of going and installing other apps if they so choose.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10868
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:14 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
My customer choice is that I am purchasing a phone with the android operating system. Surely samsung could offer to sell phones with other operating systems correct? .


Sure, but the market is android phones, and on an android phone you can only install android. Android is not Google, it is open source. Anyone can download, use and modify it, put it in their product and sell that product.
Samsung could not offer a Galaxy Green with ecosia search preinstalled as default, even if they don't want to offer play store access or Google apps or anything Google on that device, because they do have other phones with those.
Why should Google be allowed to tell Samsung what phones with what software Samsung can or can't make and sell it to me, the customer?

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Topic Author
Posts: 2720
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:22 pm

Honestly, it appears I am not as well versed on this topic as I thought I was when I first posted the story. I will defer any further discussion as such until I can more fully educate myself on exactly how Google packages everything and exactly how that impacts the market.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9257
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:33 pm

Dutchy wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
I still don't like this.


What exactly don't you like? You can still use Andriod, you can still put the Google apps on your phone if you want. The only thing is it isn't mandatory anymore so you have more options. You can use them at your discretion, not Google. What is not to like ;)


It's opportunism. American companies are innovative and wealthy so EU regulators fleece them. Countless products in all sectors are delivered with bundled features and default settings because that's what makes them useful. BMW doesn't ship an infotainment system with no apps so that you can go download the Mercedes Benz FM radio and the Audi navigation.

Claiming that users must configure their own device rather than ship them with useful defaults tortures logic so bad it violates the Geneva Convention.

tommy1808 wrote:
Why should Google be allowed to tell Samsung what phones with what software Samsung can or can't make and sell it to me, the customer?


They aren't. Google and Samsung freely and willingly entered a contract.

You aren't entitled to have an OEM build you the product that you want.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10021
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:39 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
I still don't like this.


What exactly don't you like? You can still use Andriod, you can still put the Google apps on your phone if you want. The only thing is it isn't mandatory anymore so you have more options. You can use them at your discretion, not Google. What is not to like ;)


It's opportunism. American companies are innovative and wealthy so EU regulators fleece them. Countless products in all sectors are delivered with bundled features and default settings because that's what makes them useful. BMW doesn't ship an infotainment system with no apps so that you can go download the Mercedes Benz FM radio and the Audi navigation.

Claiming that users must configure their own device rather than ship them with useful defaults tortures logic so bad it violates the Geneva Convention.


Oh please, you are barking on the wrong tree, Geneva Convention, laughable.

Some tech companies have way too much power and many of those tech companies are indeed American. I don't say that the American regulators go after European banks to squeeze them, because they are wealthy?
The EU goes after many companies whom break the law. If you don't like the law, fine, don't do business in Europe.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Topic Author
Posts: 2720
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Dutchy wrote:
don't do business in Europe.


This raises another question for me..

Who is really doing business in Europe here? In this case it would really be Samsung (et. al) right?

So then it goes back to the contract which Samsung (et. al) enter with google.

Google can't tell samsung not to sell their product in Europe right? This is why i find this so complicated and nuanced.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10021
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:49 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
don't do business in Europe.


This raises another question for me..

Who is really doing business in Europe here? In this case it would really be Samsung (et. al) right?

So then it goes back to the contract which Samsung (et. al) enter with google.

Google can't tell samsung not to sell their product in Europe right? This is why i find this so complicated and nuanced.


No Google can't tell that, but if Samsung wants to sell their product in Europe, it needs to obey the law. So if Google forces on them a contract which is illegal in Europe, they can't sell their product. And apparently, Google does violate this and my guess is that you enter a contract with Google when you activate your Samsung phone, not with Samsung. But I don't know the legal details of this of course, but the commision must feel they have a very strong case, because they must know Google will fight this fine.

Europe is by far too important market to leave for Google. So to keep these companies in check, some force must be there for fair competition and the EU seems to work on that aspect. The same with privacy for the consumer.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11839
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:30 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
It's opportunism. American companies are innovative and wealthy so EU regulators fleece them.


What don't you understand about antitrust legislation ? I believe it's an US innovation, too.

Google el al are innovative in part because they kill competitors in the bud, and hire their talents.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10021
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:49 pm

Aesma wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
It's opportunism. American companies are innovative and wealthy so EU regulators fleece them.


What don't you understand about antitrust legislation ? I believe it's an US innovation, too.

Google el al are innovative in part because they kill competitors in the bud, and hire their talents.


Or buys competitors.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:30 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
moo wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
Why can’t they? iOS is an alternative, after all.


No, it isn't, not in these instances. You can't install iOS on a non-Apple device, and third party device manufacturers cannot license it, so it's not an alternative at all.


But that isn't google's fault. That's Apple restricting users to using only their devices. That seems like more of an attack on consumers than what google does.


You miss the point, hence your confusion.

Apple isn't in the wrong because it's not forcing third party vendors to further its own market - IOS is its own, the iPhone is its own, it's not using its position with either of those to bully vendors to further a search or maps or shopping product.

That's what Googles been doing. And that's what they got into trouble for. They are forcing third party vendors to promote unrelated products.

This isn't about consumers, it's about vendors.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:34 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
I still don't like this.


What exactly don't you like? You can still use Andriod, you can still put the Google apps on your phone if you want. The only thing is it isn't mandatory anymore so you have more options. You can use them at your discretion, not Google. What is not to like ;)


It's opportunism. American companies are innovative and wealthy so EU regulators fleece them. Countless products in all sectors are delivered with bundled features and default settings because that's what makes them useful. BMW doesn't ship an infotainment system with no apps so that you can go download the Mercedes Benz FM radio and the Audi navigation.

Claiming that users must configure their own device rather than ship them with useful defaults tortures logic so bad it violates the Geneva Convention.

tommy1808 wrote:
Why should Google be allowed to tell Samsung what phones with what software Samsung can or can't make and sell it to me, the customer?


They aren't. Google and Samsung freely and willingly entered a contract.

You aren't entitled to have an OEM build you the product that you want.


It's the "freely and willingly" in your comment that the EU casts doubt on...
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10868
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:50 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
They aren't. Google and Samsung freely and willingly entered a contract.


Android isn't Google. CFM can't tell Boeing that they stopp shipping engines if Boeing doesn't stop selling aircraft with any other any other but CFMs new line of aircraft seats..
An contract that violates law is void, end of story.

You aren't entitled to have an OEM build you the product that you want.


No, I am not. But Samsung is very well entitled to build whatever phone they see a market for, regardless of what Google thinks about it, unless they ship it with Google software installed.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Topic Author
Posts: 2720
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:12 pm

I wonder if this will give rise to the google pixel...
 
User avatar
Berevoff
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:19 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:43 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
I wonder if this will give rise to the google pixel...


I think the tides will turn against Google way sooner than later. They're going to be the next big domino to fall.

People are becoming more and more tired of these monolithic data thieves.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9257
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:26 pm

Aesma wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
It's opportunism. American companies are innovative and wealthy so EU regulators fleece them.


What don't you understand about antitrust legislation ? I believe it's an US innovation, too.

Google el al are innovative in part because they kill competitors in the bud, and hire their talents.


EU anti-trust law requires no demonstration of harm, merely the possibility of harm. That's a blank check for regulators to attach whomever they wish simply because they are high-profile and lucrative targets. Shall we prosecute you on the possibility that you might beat your wife?

Dutchy wrote:
Europe is by far too important market to leave for Google. So to keep these companies in check, some force must be there for fair competition and the EU seems to work on that aspect. The same with privacy for the consumer.


That's the same rationale for carrying small bills in your wallet so that you can payoff corrupt cops. Cost of doing business in Europe.

Dutchy wrote:
If you don't like the law, fine, don't do business in Europe.


Maybe we shouldn't. Europe hasn't made a meaningful contribution to consumer electronics in 25 years. It would be your loss, not ours.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:32 am

DfwRevolution wrote:

Maybe we shouldn't. Europe hasn't made a meaningful contribution to consumer electronics in 25 years. It would be your loss, not ours.


Except for that little chip which runs your phone, tablet, router, and most other consumer gadgets these days - the continued development of the ARM processor and instruction set...

And that's just the blindingly obvious one that jumped to mind which you probably think is a US innovation.

But feel free to take your ball and leave in a huff.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10868
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:07 am

moo wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:

Maybe we shouldn't. Europe hasn't made a meaningful contribution to consumer electronics in 25 years. It would be your loss, not ours.


Except for that little chip which runs your phone, tablet, router, and most other consumer gadgets these days - the continued development of the ARM processor and instruction set...

And that's just the blindingly obvious one that jumped to mind which you probably think is a US innovation.

But feel free to take your ball and leave in a huff.



I wonder how the argument would change if ARM decided that you can only use their IP if you install Bing search and Bing search only on any ARM based device...

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2594
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:21 am

trpmb6 wrote:
The automatic nature of the BrowserChoice.eu feature was dropped in Windows 7 Service Pack 1 in February 2011 and remained absent for 14 months despite Microsoft reporting that it was still present, subsequently described by Microsoft as a "technical error". As a result, in March 2013 the European Commission fined Microsoft €561 million to deter companies from reneging on settlement promises.


That just seems predatory if you ask me. In the US fining a company to make an example of them never goes well.


The US criticism of this legitimate finding is at best 'the pot calling the kettle black.' The hypocrisy is on the US side, where regulators in Banking and Financial Services, especially the SEC are totally in bed with the biggest banks in the US. US banks, when caught totally with their hand in the cookie jar, screwing over their clients and defrauding the state, are given a minor admonishment and a minor out of court settlement to pay. The 'example' prosecutions are reserved for the EU banks: Societe Generale, BNP, Deutche Bank are all slapped with record high multi-billion fines, fair game as they're not part of the lucrative revolving door of US banking and regulatory jobs.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
mham001
Posts: 5616
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:56 am

tommy1808 wrote:
I wonder how the argument would change if ARM decided that you can only use their IP if you install Bing search and Bing search only on any ARM based device...

Best regards
Thomas


I'd do what most people do and find the way to install what I like. Bing sucks.

ozglobal wrote:
The US criticism of this legitimate finding is at best 'the pot calling the kettle black.' The hypocrisy is on the US side, where regulators in Banking and Financial Services, especially the SEC are totally in bed with the biggest banks in the US. US banks, when caught totally with their hand in the cookie jar, screwing over their clients and defrauding the state, are given a minor admonishment and a minor out of court settlement to pay. The 'example' prosecutions are reserved for the EU banks: Societe Generale, BNP, Deutche Bank are all slapped with record high multi-billion fines, fair game as they're not part of the lucrative revolving door of US banking and regulatory jobs.


If only that were true. I am no fan of "the banks" and wish more people had gone to jail but your perception is simply incorrect. (btw, BNP Paribas owns outright at least one small/medium sized chain of US banks, so that box doesn't fit either).

Since 2008...

Bank Fine, in billions
Bank of America $76.1
JPMorgan Chase $43.7
Citigroup $19
Deutsche Bank $14
Wells Fargo $11.8
RBS $10.1
BNP Paribas $9.3
Credit Suisse $9.1
Morgan Stanley $8.6
Goldman Sachs $7.7
UBS $6.5

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/banks ... 2018-02-20

This does not include 2018 which includes $1 billion more by the Trump administration against Wells Fargo - who should be put out of business imo.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10868
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:17 am

mham001 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
I wonder how the argument would change if ARM decided that you can only use their IP if you install Bing search and Bing search only on any ARM based device...

Best regards
Thomas


I'd do what most people do and find the way to install what I like. Bing sucks.


Yeah, you would probably do that, or you do what in fact most people do: just use whatever is preinstalled. If you want to install something else you wouldn´t get it out of the Google Play store though..

But what you can do with your phone isn´t the issue at hand, and so far no one has come up with any argument whatsoever why google should have the power to tell Samsung what phone-models *without any google content on it*, they can and can´t make. They can only do that because of their market power, and using your market power to squeeze out competition rather than being better than the competition is illegal.

And as much as Bing sucks, and it does, Google isn´t a good search engine either anymore either and hasn´t been for long time, everybody is doing SEO for Google and the moment someone can make money with what you are looking for, Google search results are often fairly bad. And why is everybody so focused and so good in getting their stuff on page 1 of the search results? Because they used their Market power for quite a while to squeeze out all the others. Try using DuckDuckGo.com or Ecosia.com in parallel, you will often get search results with much less Clickbait and related, but not what you are looking for, business offerings. Not always of course, the brilliance of Googles Engine sometimes comes through, but is more often completely swamped out by well optimized sides.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
FatCat
Posts: 960
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: Google fine $5 Billion by EU

Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:50 am

On other news,
Alphabet's closed last trimester with earnings for US$ 26,2 B
So a fine for US$ 5 B's a piece of cake.
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ArchGuy1, BlueberryWheats, BN747, casinterest, Dutchy, jetwet1, JJJ, LJ, scbriml and 63 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos