c933103
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The privilege to enjoy human right?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:14 am

In many places around the world, different aspects of human right are being suppressed on various different grounds. One of the argument commonly used to favor suppression against human right is that those who do so have spent efforts in creating a system that would empower them to commit those human right violations while Individuals were not trying hard enough to defense their own human right so it is justified for the authority to gain the right to suppress the human right of others, as they can maintain a working system while those who criticize them cannot.Indeed, around the world there are no mechanism that would ensure that human right is to be universally available to all humans, does that mean it's actually a privilege that only privileged individual in selected countries can only enjoy, when people in those countries agree to grant this privilege tp everyone in the country?
 
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Aesma
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:58 pm

Yes. That's why they're something fragile, even in the countries were we enjoy them, plenty of people don't see the benefits and would readily empower someone who would undermine them. In fact it has already happened.
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PanHAM
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:02 pm

It is not a privilege, it is a basic right
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
c933103
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:41 pm

PanHAM wrote:
It is not a privilege, it is a basic right

Then why it's mot universally applied in reality?
 
seb146
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:54 pm

c933103 wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
It is not a privilege, it is a basic right

Then why it's mot universally applied in reality?


Not everyone has the same idea as to what is a right and what is a privilege. Health care, for example, is a right in many Western countries. In the United States, it is seen more as a privilege. Some countries, as long as you don't talk bad about the government or the leadership, you are free to do as you please, so they see speech as a privilege in that way. Depends on who you talk to.
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moo
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:06 am

c933103 wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
It is not a privilege, it is a basic right

Then why it's mot universally applied in reality?


Because it's a human construction, not a fundamental law of physics or anything else we have to abide by because we currently have no ability not to.

Human rights are made up things which a group of people decided would be a Good Thing. The problem is, we have no way to enforce those rights across all countries - the UN is a collection of individual countries, not a world government that can rule by decree. It has no fundamental power to force its members to do anything, only request and coerce.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:58 am

Human rights is a privilege? :O
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PanHAM
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:29 am

I would not want to live in a state where a "pr.ivilege" is granted. Who grants can take away. That is not possible any more in Germany. The short form Explanation is as follows, taken from Wikipedia:

quote
The authors of the Basic Law sought to ensure that a potential dictator would never again be able to come to power in the country. Although some of the Basic Law is based on the Weimar Republic's constitution, the authors also elevated human rights and human dignity to core values protected by the Basic Law. The principles of democracy, republicanism, social responsibility, and federalism are key components of the Basic Law; the principles and fundamental rights underlying these articles are constitutionally entrenched and; although several of these articles have since been reworded, extended or refined, they are barred from being removed or repealed by the normal amendment process.
unquote

The Basic rights are given by the law and Germany, like the western democarcies is ruled by the law, not by a Despot, a dictator , a self appointed Sultan or a simple cleptocrat. Those of us who have been Born into a western Democracies may be privilegized over the gross majority who have to endure the hardship of a ruler or whatever a strong man may call himself.

Some countries are even dumb enough to turn themselves from a fairly good working Democracy into a Sultanate.

OK, I am privileged to be a citizen of a Country where no Fueher or anyone else can take that privilege from me. That is guaranteed by the eternal paragraphs of the German Basic law. And that is a right, not a privilege.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:35 pm

PanHAM wrote:
OK, I am privileged to be a citizen of a Country where no Fueher or anyone else can take that privilege from me. That is guaranteed by the eternal paragraphs of the German Basic law. And that is a right, not a privilege.


Humans wrote that basic law and humans can take it away, given the right political circumstances things could easily change, it’s just a piece of paper. Never say never, Germany gave the world Hitler and they could give us Hiter 2.0, you just have no way of knowing what will happen in the future.
 
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seahawk
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:48 pm

Just some laws formulated by people who can afford to respect the laws they came up with.
 
PhilBy
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:34 pm

PanHAM wrote:
That is not possible any more in Germany.

It's still possible, just not easy. No written law cannot be changed.

According to certain previous debates on this subject we have human rights because god created them. (which is why coyotes cannot claim coyote rights and kick those european social and religious extemists
of their heriditary land in North America.)

OR it could be that we are a bunch of nasty whatnots that don't recognise the rights of any other species to exist.

Although the UK has (relatively) recently enacted pet rights legislation: A bunny rabbit has a legal right to more space than an office worker.
 
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seahawk
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:32 pm

Human rights are like any human law, they become extinct when nobody has the power or an interest to enforce them. And it takes not much for that to happen. A longer blackout, a food crisis or any large natural disaster and they are gone.
 
slider
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:21 pm

I think far too many people, and governments for that matter, fundamentally misunderstand the very concept of human rights. We are given our rights by our Creator. Governments are instituted by man.

Until the great American experiment, no successful nation had as its very foundation the premise that government's job is to not encroach upon those God-given rights. "Rights" by definition, cannot be taken away, granted or any such thing, yet we've seen it time and time again, throughout history.

I disagree with Seahawk that human rights are like human law---they are not nor should they be, but they do get stepped on, sadly. Law is created by man to create order from chaos. To instill rules for society to follow to enable human rights to flourish. It's a critical distinction.
 
masi1157
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:21 pm

PanHAM wrote:
That is not possible any more in Germany.

Not possible because it's forbidden by the Grundgesetz? And what if somebody comes to power who undermines, changes and no longer respects the Grundgesetz? Erdogan is demonstrating the way, Trump is trying to. Btw: Soll die Signatur auf deutsch geschrieben sein? Dann verstehe ich sie nicht.


Gruß, masi1157
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aviationaware
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:26 pm

masi1157 wrote:
Trump is trying to.


This kind of misstatement is the reason why nobody takes you seriously. In no way is President Trump trying to undermine the constitution or take away basic human rights.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:54 pm

aviationaware wrote:
masi1157 wrote:
Trump is trying to.


This kind of misstatement is the reason why nobody takes you seriously. In no way is President Trump trying to undermine the constitution or take away basic human rights.


Don't think you could seriously mean this statement. Think I could just think of:
> locking up innocent children without their parents
> making distinction between nationalities whom could enter or not
> taking away health care (Obama care)
> if we take Trump seriously: killing family members of terrorist suspects | sending many to Quantanomobay | waterboarding or torture

And there must be many more.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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EstherLouise
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:07 pm

aviationaware wrote:
masi1157 wrote:
Trump is trying to.


This kind of misstatement is the reason why nobody takes you seriously. In no way is President Trump trying to undermine the constitution or take away basic human rights.


I honestly don't think Trump knows what the Constitution says or what the administrative rules are of the USA. Take all of the business laws that he's probably broken over the years. At best, he proves that he's not one who plays by the rules. At worst, he's a traitor for knowingly supplanting the rules.
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BN747
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:17 pm

slider wrote:
I think far too many people, and governments for that matter, fundamentally misunderstand the very concept of human rights. We are given our rights by our Creator. Governments are instituted by man.


That’s plausible for those stuck in beliefs that some human-favoring all powerful ‘thing’ exist...however, from a scientific perspective that notion is absurd thought and is rationalization based in false hope/premise.

When the God Particle is removed from the equation...we’re left with the question of how Ugg and Mugg, cave dude neighbors way back when came around to cooperating and working together - in order to eat (steadily) and survive. Things grew from there to villages - cooperating/warring to expanding...along with that came rules, guidelines providing a clear path to an orderly society....and we’ve been trekking forward ever since.

But the most egregious omission I see thus far in this thread is the voice that made the call for universal respect of humanity dignity and human rights...

...US President Jimmy Carter.

Being POTUS, he of course had the biggest microphone at hand and he used it to make this urgent plea to the reason of thinking men.

When he embarked on that mission to call an end to despotic autocratic rule, today’s Traitor Trump supporters AND their parents bashed Carter ruthlessly calling him a wuss and any emasculating term they could think of. That strand of Mugg & Ugg DNA that triggers absolutely ignorance to o erode common sense is apparently still with us.

If human rights is of true concern to anyone living in the modern age, a great deal of gratitude is owed to the man for pushing it to the forefront of any mind that would listen...apparently some did.

BN747
Last edited by BN747 on Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
aviationaware
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:20 pm

Dutchy wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
masi1157 wrote:
Trump is trying to.


This kind of misstatement is the reason why nobody takes you seriously. In no way is President Trump trying to undermine the constitution or take away basic human rights.


Don't think you could seriously mean this statement. Think I could just think of:
> locking up innocent children without their parents
> making distinction between nationalities whom could enter or not
> taking away health care (Obama care)
> if we take Trump seriously: killing family members of terrorist suspects | sending many to Quantanomobay | waterboarding or torture

And there must be many more.


> that was an Obama era policy that Trump merely continued
> differentiating between nationalities for entry purposes is the prerogative of any sovereign nation - but of course being dutch you aren’t from a sovereign coutry so you wouldn’t understand
> Healthcareis not a universal human right
> he only said he was for torture, he hasn’t acted on it in any way

Any more futile attempts, dutchy?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:34 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

This kind of misstatement is the reason why nobody takes you seriously. In no way is President Trump trying to undermine the constitution or take away basic human rights.


Don't think you could seriously mean this statement. Think I could just think of:
> locking up innocent children without their parents
> making distinction between nationalities whom could enter or not
> taking away health care (Obama care)
> if we take Trump seriously: killing family members of terrorist suspects | sending many to Quantanomobay | waterboarding or torture

And there must be many more.


> that was an Obama era policy that Trump merely continued
> differentiating between nationalities for entry purposes is the prerogative of any sovereign nation - but of course being dutch you aren’t from a sovereign coutry so you wouldn’t understand
> Healthcareis not a universal human right
> he only said he was for torture, he hasn’t acted on it in any way

Any more futile attempts, dutchy?


Nope, I understand that it is futile because you will see Trump in your own way and do not want any criticism on this. And if someone dare you go ahead with made up facts trying to get a reaction. I just shake my head and just let you be in your world of illutions.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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EstherLouise
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:40 pm

aviationaware wrote:
> Healthcareis not a universal human right




Health care may not be a right, but HEALTH is a basic human right. A healthy nation is a strong nation.
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aviationaware
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:39 pm

Criticism is one thing dutchy, accusing someone of human rights violations is a whole another animal. That’s not a joking matter. Just like the people who call Israel an apartheid state denigrate the victims of real apartheid states, your rampant accusations against Trump are a slap in the face for victims of true human rights violators.
 
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FlightMode
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:07 am

Human rights are an abstract or an ideal to be strived for. No where are they absolute or universally observed. Some countries behave better than others in respecting international treaties or local laws, but even in the best we have witnessed violations ranging from participation in shooting unarmed civilians, conducting searches without warrant (breaking and entering) to rendition (abduction and removal to countries that use torture). In some cases, individuals have been able to seek redress through the courts but access to the courts has not prevented the original abuse of rights and dead people can't sue.

EstherLouise wrote:
Health care may not be a right, but HEALTH is a basic human right. A healthy nation is a strong nation.


That's illogical. If health were a basic human right, then no one would ever become ill. Sure, there are things that individuals can do to minimise health risks but when a person becomes or is born with a disability or disease, they need health care. Sadly, that care is not viewed as a right unless you can pay in many countries.

One can make a similar argument about education, where in some countries primary and secondary education is not merely viewed as a right but an obligation. In other countries education is only available to those who can pay or is based on the gender of the child.
 
PanHAM
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:10 am

masi1157 wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
That is not possible any more in Germany.

Not possible because it's forbidden by the Grundgesetz? And what if somebody comes to power who undermines, changes and no longer respects the Grundgesetz? Erdogan is demonstrating the way, Trump is trying to. Btw: Soll die Signatur auf deutsch geschrieben sein? Dann verstehe ich sie nicht.


Gruß, masi1157


There are "eternal" paragraphs which cannot be changed by assemblies or individuals and article 20 gives the right to resist People or movements that try to Change or remove these articles. What Erdogan has done to Turkey would be unconstitutional and lawless in Germany. Article 20 gives us the right to "Tyrannenmord". if nothing else helps to put the Basic law into effect again.

To understand my signature Google "Trapatoni, Bayern Munich speech" To mirror the current Situation I coud add "Hatte regiert wie Flasche leer".
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
masi1157
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:20 am

The Grundgesetz is not able to protect itself. We must protect it!


Gruß, masi1157
499 different segments on 98 airlines to 208 airports in 55 countries
 
Kiwirob
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:37 am

PanHAM wrote:
masi1157 wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
That is not possible any more in Germany.

Not possible because it's forbidden by the Grundgesetz? And what if somebody comes to power who undermines, changes and no longer respects the Grundgesetz? Erdogan is demonstrating the way, Trump is trying to. Btw: Soll die Signatur auf deutsch geschrieben sein? Dann verstehe ich sie nicht.


Gruß, masi1157


There are "eternal" paragraphs which cannot be changed by assemblies or individuals and article 20 gives the right to resist People or movements that try to Change or remove these articles. What Erdogan has done to Turkey would be unconstitutional and lawless in Germany. Article 20 gives us the right to "Tyrannenmord". if nothing else helps to put the Basic law into effect again.

To understand my signature Google "Trapatoni, Bayern Munich speech" To mirror the current Situation I coud add "Hatte regiert wie Flasche leer".


Nothing is eternal, what one group can enact another can take away, the idea that something manmade is eternal is beyond childish.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:50 am

aviationaware wrote:
Criticism is one thing dutchy, accusing someone of human rights violations is a whole another animal. That’s not a joking matter. Just like the people who call Israel an apartheid state denigrate the victims of real apartheid states, your rampant accusations against Trump are a slap in the face for victims of true human rights violators.


It is indeed no joking matter. Trump is a slap in the face of decent politicians and indeed a slap in the face of the average Americans. There are a different kind of violations and none are a joking matter, none. Each country is criticized for some violations, America isn't different. Trump said and did all those things and those are violations, like it or not. And since he seems to actually want to do what he said, it is fair game to confront him with his own words.
As for Israel, well lot's of human right violations, truly a lot. Apartheid yes.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:57 am

seb146 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
In the United States, it is seen more as a privilege. .


depends... to the outside it is seen as a right, just like welfare, paid vacation, maternity leave, as the US has signed treaties to that effect. But their own citizens don´t seem to be worth the rights.

best regards
Thomas
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Dutchy
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:59 am

FlightMode wrote:
Human rights are an abstract or an ideal to be strived for. Nowhere are they absolute or universally observed.


Absolutely true. Some countries have indeed a good legal system which protects citizens against their government. We in Europe, are protected and can go to court if our governments violate the human rights and they are more explicit here, also a benefit from the EU. But indeed it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Even pollution can be seen as a human right violation, simply because it damages one's health or climate change and if governments doesn't do enough to prevent it.
So yes, human rights are something to strive for and something we need as a society of free citizens.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:14 am

Dutchy wrote:
FlightMode wrote:
Human rights are an abstract or an ideal to be strived for. Nowhere are they absolute or universally observed.


Absolutely true. Some countries have indeed a good legal system which protects citizens against their government. We in Europe, are protected and can go to court if our governments violate the human rights and they are more explicit here, also a benefit from the EU. But indeed it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Even pollution can be seen as a human right violation, simply because it damages one's health or climate change and if governments doesn't do enough to prevent it.
So yes, human rights are something to strive for and something we need as a society of free citizens.


Yup. The only way to fix it though is economic pressure. Today having no care for rights often pays off.

Of, your citizens don´t get to vote? Automatic 25% tariff....
Human rights are not "real" in your country? Another 25% tariff.
Expand universal jurisdiction and issue arrest warrants for everyone involved in, aiding and embedding human rights violations, snag them up if you can, put them on trial, put them away.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
PanHAM
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:27 am

to those who say that nothing is eternal, well it starts with article 1

Quote
(1) Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.
unquote

It should go undisputed

REgarding the USA - the Division of powers still work. Regardless of a hot air balloon, although many matters in the USA collide with our article one, but that is something the US citizens should be concerned about.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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seahawk
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:55 am

And yet, all this becomes relative in a state of emergency or times of war.
 
tommy1808
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:12 am

seahawk wrote:
And yet, all this becomes relative in a state of emergency or times of war.


including the explicit permission to kill anyone that wants to use the state of emergency in any other way but intended.

GG wrote:
Article 20
[Constitutional principles – Right of resistance]

(1) The Federal Republic of Germany is a democratic and social federal state.

(2) All state authority is derived from the people. It shall be exercised by the people through elections and other votes and through specific legislative, executive and judicial bodies.

(3) The legislature shall be bound by the constitutional order, the executive and the judiciary by law and justice.

(4) All Germans shall have the right to resist any person seeking to abolish this constitutional order, if no other remedy is available.


best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
c933103
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:27 am

slider wrote:
I think far too many people, and governments for that matter, fundamentally misunderstand the very concept of human rights. We are given our rights by our Creator. Governments are instituted by man.

Until the great American experiment, no successful nation had as its very foundation the premise that government's job is to not encroach upon those God-given rights. "Rights" by definition, cannot be taken away, granted or any such thing, yet we've seen it time and time again, throughout history.

I disagree with Seahawk that human rights are like human law---they are not nor should they be, but they do get stepped on, sadly. Law is created by man to create order from chaos. To instill rules for society to follow to enable human rights to flourish. It's a critical distinction.

That is a very creationist view.
What about those people who don't believe in, or maybe have never heard of, the god?
And how is it god given if it take the entire society to protect?
 
tommy1808
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Re: The privilege to enjoy human right?

Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:55 am

c933103 wrote:
slider wrote:
I think far too many people, and governments for that matter, fundamentally misunderstand the very concept of human rights. We are given our rights by our Creator. Governments are instituted by man.

Until the great American experiment, no successful nation had as its very foundation the premise that government's job is to not encroach upon those God-given rights. "Rights" by definition, cannot be taken away, granted or any such thing, yet we've seen it time and time again, throughout history.

I disagree with Seahawk that human rights are like human law---they are not nor should they be, but they do get stepped on, sadly. Law is created by man to create order from chaos. To instill rules for society to follow to enable human rights to flourish. It's a critical distinction.

That is a very creationist view.
What about those people who don't believe in, or maybe have never heard of, the god?
And how is it god given if it take the entire society to protect?


Plus of course that few religions are big on "rights".

As for Christianity... the first commandment is basically saying you have to worship me, the first amendment says "no, we don't". That ain't a coincidence.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......

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