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bhill
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Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:12 pm

High time to sever all ties with this government.....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... 3fb84f5647
 
kaitak
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:01 pm

This is appalling. While no one would ever accuse the Saudis of being big on the human rights front, this would be a new low for them and it needs to be highlighted and governments need to make it absolutely clear to the Saudis that this must not happen - and the consequences if it does actually happen. It's one thing to execute people in a barbaric fashion for actual crimes, but to execute people for standing up for their rights and those of others is beyond the pale.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:31 pm

bhill wrote:
High time to sever all ties with this government.....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... 3fb84f5647


Canada already took a stand whilst the rest of the world looked the other way and did nothing.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:31 pm

But Iran are the bad guys, Saudi Arabia are our besties. :sarcastic:
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:36 pm

Such a shame on multiple levels. Seeking the death penalty for these activists is abominable and indeed a new low. Such a shame, with the new King there are some steps to relax the strict laws, women allowed to drive etc. but hardliners seem to gain power again.
 
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MassAppeal
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:46 pm

Even though its a terrible thing we must accept that this is part of their culture, right?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:54 pm

I don't think it's part of their culture, no. It's an attempt to adapt their culture to the modern world, but going at it the wrong way.

In their culture a woman is slightly above an animal, so cannot be held responsible for her actions.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:29 pm

scbriml wrote:
But Iran are the bad guys, Saudi Arabia are our besties. :sarcastic:


Yep, never mind that the mastermind behind 9/11 is from a rich Saudi family, and it's the country where 15 out of 19 9/11 hijackers came from. Iran is evil, down with Iran, and all hail Prince MBS.

Seriously, if there's a country that I don't mind turning into parking lot, it's SA. The most backward nation in a region full of them, meanwhile, US is all cushy with them for what? Their stupid oil?

Kiwirob wrote:
bhill wrote:
High time to sever all ties with this government.....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... 3fb84f5647


Canada already took a stand whilst the rest of the world looked the other way and did nothing.


We know Mr. Dennison won't say a word. The more cruel the dictator is, the more cushy that certain golfer is to that person.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:09 pm

Don't worry, climate change will make the Arabian peninsula uninhabitable soon enough.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:20 pm

MassAppeal wrote:
Even though its a terrible thing we must accept that this is part of their culture, right?


I don't think it's the woman's culture.

Best regards
Thomas
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:13 pm

scbriml wrote:
But Iran are the bad guys, Saudi Arabia are our besties. :sarcastic:

Well that's easy; there's a huge difference. One is a religious whack-a-do repressive state that meddles throughout the Middle East while the other-wait a second...

MassAppeal wrote:
Even though its a terrible thing we must accept that this is part of their culture, right?

Capital punishment is part of our culture
 
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MassAppeal
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:03 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
Even though its a terrible thing we must accept that this is part of their culture, right?

Capital punishment is part of our culture


Yes it is. Its not very effective.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:25 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Capital punishment is part of our culture


Only in dictatorships and otherwise very fringe cultures....

MaverickM11 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
But Iran are the bad guys, Saudi Arabia are our besties. :sarcastic:

Well that's easy; there's a huge difference. One is a religious whack-a-do repressive state that meddles throughout the Middle East while the other-wait a second...


Lesson: if you support a few select terror groups you have a problem, if you support them all, you don't. Or is it the amount of bribes? Hard to say...

Best regards
Thomas
 
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MassAppeal
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:20 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Capital punishment is part of our culture


Only in dictatorships and otherwise very fringe cultures....

MaverickM11 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Thomas


China, the USA, Japan, India, Taiwan, Singapore are fringe cultures. Never knew that.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:14 am

MassAppeal wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Capital punishment is part of our culture


Only in dictatorships and otherwise very fringe cultures....

MaverickM11 wrote:


China, the USA, Japan, India, Taiwan, Singapore are fringe cultures. Never knew that.


China is a dictatorship and the rest is fringe among real countries aka democracies.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:34 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Only in dictatorships and otherwise very fringe cultures....



China, the USA, Japan, India, Taiwan, Singapore are fringe cultures. Never knew that.


China is a dictatorship and the rest is fringe among real countries aka democracies.

Best regards
Thomas


The death penalty should be in every culture, unfortunately Europe and a few other fringe countries screwed up.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:31 pm

Kiwirob wrote:

The death penalty should be in every culture, unfortunately Europe and a few other fringe countries screwed up.


Why?
It's been proven not to be a deterrent to crime.
It's been proven to eat up vast sums of money spanning decades in appeals and due process. (It costs vastly more to maintain a death row prisoner, costs more per trial and per appeal. Overall it's generally cheaper all round to give a life sentence vs death sentence).
It's been proven, innocent people have been executed for crimes they did not commit (despite point 2).

That's without getting into corruption, kangaroo courts, political show trials and all of the other ills surrounding it's use.
 
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BartSimpson
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:03 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:

China, the USA, Japan, India, Taiwan, Singapore are fringe cultures. Never knew that.


China is a dictatorship and the rest is fringe among real countries aka democracies.

Best regards
Thomas


The death penalty should be in every culture, unfortunately Europe and a few other fringe countries screwed up.


No, those countries are just more humane and don't put revenge before justice. Death penalty is all about the satisfaction of an archaic longing fpr revenge, nothing more.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:21 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

The death penalty should be in every culture, unfortunately Europe and a few other fringe countries screwed up.


Why?
It's been proven not to be a deterrent to crime.
It's been proven to eat up vast sums of money spanning decades in appeals and due process. (It costs vastly more to maintain a death row prisoner, costs more per trial and per appeal. Overall it's generally cheaper all round to give a life sentence vs death sentence).
It's been proven, innocent people have been executed for crimes they did not commit (despite point 2).

That's without getting into corruption, kangaroo courts, political show trials and all of the other ills surrounding it's use.


If someone kills someone I love you bet I want revenge, its basic human instinct.

The problem in the US is the process isn't very efficient, I'd allow one appeal within 5 years of the initial conviction, if they lose then they're executed.

I get that innocent people have been executed, but with DNA evidence and limiting executions to special cases like the Utøya killer and his like there shouldn't be a problem with innocent people being killed.

Bad people don't deserve second chances.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:48 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
If someone kills someone I love you bet I want revenge, its basic human instinct.

While true, revenge is certainly not a positive emotion, neither are the outcomes of revenge particularly positive.
Revenge is not equal to justice.
For all your grand statements beforehand, the simple fact is, until you're in a such situation where you'd have to seriously think it through and face the reality of it, you don't really know how you'd react.
The human race has throughout history, made more progress by rising above our basic animal instincts rather than succumbing to them.

The problem in the US is the process isn't very efficient, I'd allow one appeal within 5 years of the initial conviction, if they lose then they're executed.

See points 2 and 3 raised before. Without due process, the number in point 3 rises, that number is already to high.

DNA evidence is not a cure-all. It's fallible too (and has been proven as such).

Edit: Now flip those hypothetical roles.
Your 'loved one' is up on the charge and facing the death penalty (but completely innocent). They're found guilty and then their appeal fails. They're executed on day 1 of the fifth year. At some point after that, be it day 2 or year 40 a new advance (or simple oversight), either discredits the evidence they were convicted on or completely proves their innocence. How do you feel then?
This to has happened far too many times.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:34 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
If someone kills someone I love you bet I want revenge, its basic human instinct.

While true, revenge is certainly not a positive emotion, neither are the outcomes of revenge particularly positive.
Revenge is not equal to justice.
For all your grand statements beforehand, the simple fact is, until you're in a such situation where you'd have to seriously think it through and face the reality of it, you don't really know how you'd react.
The human race has throughout history, made more progress by rising above our basic animal instincts rather than succumbing to them.

The problem in the US is the process isn't very efficient, I'd allow one appeal within 5 years of the initial conviction, if they lose then they're executed.

See points 2 and 3 raised before. Without due process, the number in point 3 rises, that number is already to high.

DNA evidence is not a cure-all. It's fallible too (and has been proven as such).

Edit: Now flip those hypothetical roles.
Your 'loved one' is up on the charge and facing the death penalty (but completely innocent). They're found guilty and then their appeal fails. They're executed on day 1 of the fifth year. At some point after that, be it day 2 or year 40 a new advance (or simple oversight), either discredits the evidence they were convicted on or completely proves their innocence. How do you feel then?
This to has happened far too many times.


As you said it's a hypothetical argument so I don't need to worry about any of my family members being falsely convicted and executed.

I know two people who had family killed by Anders Breivik, one lost his wife the other lost her daughter, both would have liked to see Anders executed for his crimes. This man was guilty, he murdered 77 people and injured another 319, there is no doubt who committed the crime, he should have been executed for it. You'll never get me to change my mind on this.

At least in the US most mass murderers have the decency to suicide or get killed by police so you don't have to worry about executing them.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:18 am

Kiwirob wrote:
The death penalty should be in every culture, unfortunately Europe and a few other fringe countries screwed up.


By fringe you mean the clear majority of nations on earth and almost all democracies?

Best regards
Thomas
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:53 am

By population it’s clearly a fringe, far more people live in countries that execute than people who live in countries that don’t.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:04 am

Kiwirob wrote:
By population it’s clearly a fringe, far more people live in countries that execute than people who live in countries that don’t.


Each country just gets to make one decision, so population is irrelevant. It is not like a country having capital punishment has support of that from 100% of the population.

https://www.livelaw.in/public-opinion-t ... h-penalty/

Having capital punishment seems to be a good indication for how defective a democracy is.

best regards
Thomas
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:08 am

You have your opinion I have mine.

Unfortunately it was so gooder politicians who scuppered the death penatly in NZ, there should have been a referendum to make a decision like this.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:28 am

Kiwirob wrote:
You have your opinion I have mine.


we are discussing facts here, not opinions. Your opinion is as clear as it is ancient.
Most countries not having it is a fact, public opinion is also an empirical fact.

Unfortunately it was so gooder politicians who scuppered the death penatly in NZ, there should have been a referendum to make a decision like this.


polls show bringing it back has the chance of a Snowball in Hell in the court of public opinion.

best regards
Thomas
 
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keesje
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:03 am

It would like to see a graph showing the relation between degree female emmancipation and having physical punishment. In western Europe, it went hand in hand, mostly late 19th century early 20th.
 
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MassAppeal
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:46 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

China is a dictatorship and the rest is fringe among real countries aka democracies.

Best regards
Thomas


What a load of nonsense..


Well, 75% of all countries on this planet have done away with capital punishment, most of them in law and practice, the rest in practice, among them almost all democracies. That makes the remaining countries pretty fringe.

So i agree

Its amazing how arrogant some people can be.


best regards
Thomas


Unbelievable how some people can be so caught up in themselves to actually believe this stuff.
 
787Driver
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:13 pm

Boycott Saudi oil and after a few months the country is reduced to nothing but a few beduins
 
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Aesma
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:40 pm

keesje wrote:
It would like to see a graph showing the relation between degree female emmancipation and having physical punishment. In western Europe, it went hand in hand, mostly late 19th century early 20th.


But as I said with emancipation came responsibility.

On March 16, 1914, Henriette Caillaux shot and killed Gaston Calmette, editor of the newspaper Le Figaro. Her attorney convinced the jury that her crime, which she did not deny, was not a premeditated act but that her uncontrollable female emotions resulted in a crime of passion. The belief that women were not as strong emotionally as men resulted in her acquittal on 28 July 1914.


Such a defense wouldn't work today.
 
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keesje
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:52 pm

I had a comment with the same person during a high level arms deal, mentioning Saudi Arabia is a good buffer towards Iran. Some one got it deleted. Which is very worrying, 1st amendment stuff.

https://www.voanews.com/a/saudi-crown-prince-to-visit-white-house-tuesday/4305355.html
 
tommy1808
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:06 am

MassAppeal wrote:
Unbelievable how some people can be so caught up in themselves to actually believe this stuff.


how about you proof the statement wrong instead instead of huffing and puffing that you like your "alternative facts" better?

best regards
Thomas
 
WIederling
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:10 am

keesje wrote:
It would like to see a graph showing the relation between degree female emmancipation and having physical punishment. In western Europe, it went hand in hand, mostly late 19th century early 20th.


Obacht: that does not bring you causality. :-)

What Kiwirob ignores is that we have seen ( beyond a massive regression in one nation ) the creation of buffer space
between social (mis)behaviour and that societies countermeasures.
Progressing from "you bent my hair and I take your live" and "I like your wife, I'll take it"
over an eye for an eye ( proportional counter ) to "turn the other cheek" ( to defang escalation.)

Add the formal/legal processes to go beyond the reflexive to some well reasoned decission.
Blood feud, selfjustice, pogromes and such should be overcome by now _and_ should not be allowed to be be
reconstituted by those who have not understood what makes today's societies bearable and productive.


What makes us human is being able to think, reflect on stuff and come to a well reasoned _and_ fair decission.
NOT a faster instinctive, hardwired, unreflected counter.
 
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keesje
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:38 pm

Image
Israa al-Ghomgham, beheaded for asking more rights for women?

So, who has the guts to stand up?

Image
 
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MassAppeal
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:00 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
Unbelievable how some people can be so caught up in themselves to actually believe this stuff.


how about you proof the statement wrong instead instead of huffing and puffing that you like your "alternative facts" better?

best regards
Thomas


You called the USA, Japan, Singapore, and India "fringe" countries. That's probably the craziest thing I've heard here in a long time it speaks for itself.
 
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RetroRoo
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:38 am

All cultures are not equal. Capital punishment *especially* for non-capital crimes is utterly barbaric and neolithic. Saudi Arabia is a completely backward and broken country. They're not the only ones but perhaps that's another thread.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:32 pm

MassAppeal wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
Unbelievable how some people can be so caught up in themselves to actually believe this stuff.


how about you proof the statement wrong instead instead of huffing and puffing that you like your "alternative facts" better?

best regards
Thomas


You called the USA, Japan, Singapore, and India "fringe" countries. .


and Taiwan. That is about 4% percent of all democracies.

Dictionary wrote:
fringe

3. the outer, marginal, or extreme part of an area, group, or sphere of activity.


fringe is the correct word for the extreme outer 4% within the peer group.

best regards
Thomas
 
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MassAppeal
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:55 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

how about you proof the statement wrong instead instead of huffing and puffing that you like your "alternative facts" better?

best regards
Thomas


You called the USA, Japan, Singapore, and India "fringe" countries. .


and Taiwan. That is about 4% percent of all democracies.

Dictionary wrote:
fringe

3. the outer, marginal, or extreme part of an area, group, or sphere of activity.


fringe is the correct word for the extreme outer 4% within the peer group.

best regards
Thomas


You're really trying and failing hard not to look stupid here.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:45 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
That is about 4% percent of all democracies.

So you are saying that "majorities" are correct? Doing things the right way? So people and countries should do/follow what "the majority" does?

Do I have that right?

Tugg
 
tommy1808
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:01 am

Tugger wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
That is about 4% percent of all democracies.

So you are saying that "majorities" are correct? Doing things the right way? So people and countries should do/follow what "the majority" does?


The question what is and isn´t right is independent from 4% being fringe or not. In this case the majority also happens to be right. Which somehow in the longterm trendline the majority pretty much always turn out to be.. That is why a bleeding heard liberal from 150 years ago would today be on the right fringes of the political spectrum. Give it a 100 more years and proponents of capital punishment will be viewed the same way as slave owners are today.

People involved in capital punishment need to be prosecuted for murder. And thanks to mostly the US, we can one day do that regardless of the legality of capital punishment at the time it was carried out. Good.

best regards
Thomas
 
Airstud
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Re: Saudi Arabia plans to execute "uppity" women

Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:14 am

keesje wrote:
Image
Israa al-Ghomgham, beheaded for asking more rights for women?

So, who has the guts to stand up?

Image


Has she actually been beheaded?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/saudi ... execution/

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