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SCQ83
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America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:37 pm

When will be the time that Iranian carriers will be fully banned from the free world?

https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/US-am ... ace-560472

U.S. AMBASSADOR ASKS GERMANY: STOP IRANIAN AIRLINE FROM USE OF AIRSPACE

The new US ambassador to Germany, Richard Grenell, requested the German government to block Iran’s Mahan Air from flying within German airspace and deny it landing rights in the country because of the airline’s material support for terrorism.

In a meeting last week with a senior delegation from the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, Grenell said: “Here in Germany, I have asked the German government to support our efforts to stop an airline called Mahan Air from utilizing German airspace and airports. We know that Mahan Air has been used by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps [IRGC] as a mode of transport for weapons, resources and fighters, so we’re asking our allies to help us put a stop to it.


According to Wikipedia, Mahan Air flies from IKA to Athens, Barcelona, Düsseldorf, Larnaca, Milan–Malpensa, Paris–Charles de Gaulle and Varna in the European Union. Time for a ban.
 
trijetsonly
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:47 pm

So who asks? America, the USA or the Trump regime?

I think that Germany will not react to that because when they asked the USA to block Trump as president because of being stupid they didn't react either.

Last but not least, the new US ambassador in Berlin has already been warned and is on probation now for being an extreme douchebag.
Happy Landings
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:49 pm

W5 was also involved in the Aeroterror project with V0, facilitation materiel between IKA and CCS. I'm actually surprised that they have not been barred from EU airspace. As for Germany, however, I don't recall in recent memory a single EU member embargoing airspace without the rest of the EASA countries doing likewise. This would need to be raised in Brussels..
 
kiowa
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:49 pm

trijetsonly wrote:
So who asks? America, the USA or the Trump regime?

I think that Germany will not react to that because when they asked the USA to block Trump as president because of being stupid they didn't react either.

Last but not least, the new US ambassador in Berlin has already been warned and is on probation now for being an extreme douchebag.



Interesting thread but doomed to political opinions from the start :(
 
trijetsonly
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:52 pm

The problem with this topic is, that it is much more related to politics than to aviation, especially with the biased post by the thread opener.
Happy Landings
 
tommy1808
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:56 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
This would need to be raised in Brussels..


It is quite sad that even more than 1.5 years into the administration apparently still no one is around that understands how the EU works.

SCQ83 wrote:
When will be the time that Iranian carriers will be fully banned from the free world?


Just around the time when Saudi Arabia faces significant sanctions I guess.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Unflug
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:02 pm

Maybe Grenell should better ask himself what allies are and how a relation with allies should work...
 
deltal1011man
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:04 pm

trijetsonly wrote:
So who asks? America, the USA or the Trump regime?

I think that Germany will not react to that because when they asked the USA to block Trump as president because of being stupid they didn't react either.

Last but not least, the new US ambassador in Berlin has already been warned and is on probation now for being an extreme douchebag.

lol.

What does this nonsense even mean?
 
LGAviation
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:04 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
When will be the time that Iranian carriers will be fully banned from the free world?

https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/US-am ... ace-560472

U.S. AMBASSADOR ASKS GERMANY: STOP IRANIAN AIRLINE FROM USE OF AIRSPACE

The new US ambassador to Germany, Richard Grenell, requested the German government to block Iran’s Mahan Air from flying within German airspace and deny it landing rights in the country because of the airline’s material support for terrorism.

In a meeting last week with a senior delegation from the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, Grenell said: “Here in Germany, I have asked the German government to support our efforts to stop an airline called Mahan Air from utilizing German airspace and airports. We know that Mahan Air has been used by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps [IRGC] as a mode of transport for weapons, resources and fighters, so we’re asking our allies to help us put a stop to it.


According to Wikipedia, Mahan Air flies from IKA to Athens, Barcelona, Düsseldorf, Larnaca, Milan–Malpensa, Paris–Charles de Gaulle and Varna in the European Union. Time for a ban.


I am not going to get into the whole whether we should ban Iranian carriers from the "free world", which to me is an area that shrinks and shrinks unfortunately. I am also not getting into the hypocrisy that some might see.

I would be very surprised though if the German government were to positively react to the request. German willingness to do the Americans in general and Mr Grenell who on his first day in office ruined his relationship with the country any favours at this stage with regards to Iran is limited. I was already surprised that we accepted the deportation of a non-German citizen to Germany a few weeks, but this is a different animal.

I understand that the US could theoretically sanction airport operators but I personally think that this would be one step too far.

If the request remains only Mahan Air I might see the German government considering the issue given their alleged connections with terrorism but there is no way in hell that the German government will ban flights of Iran Air and Lufthansa. There is a substantial Persian diaspora here that travels back and forth and the government is working to promote trade with Iran and not to ban it.
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DarthLobster
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:06 pm

trijetsonly wrote:
I think that Germany will not react to that because when they asked the USA to block Trump as president because of being stupid they didn't react either.


Because Germany has an official say in who can run for office in the United States?

Last but not least, the new US ambassador in Berlin has already been warned and is on probation now for being an extreme douchebag.


I didn’t realize being a douchebag was a crime.
 
deltal1011man
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:10 pm

DarthLobster wrote:
trijetsonly wrote:
I think that Germany will not react to that because when they asked the USA to block Trump as president because of being stupid they didn't react either.


Because Germany has an official say in who can run for office in the United States?

Last but not least, the new US ambassador in Berlin has already been warned and is on probation now for being an extreme douchebag.


I didn’t realize being a douchebag was a crime.

In a socialist utopia anything can be a crime. Germany would know a lot about that......
 
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keesje
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:10 pm

I think tourism to Iran has been growing fast over the last 5 years, acient areas, old churches, wild reserves and even winter sports.

Image

Also tourists from Iran spreaded out over Europe. Mahan no doubt greatly benefitted from it. I wonder is this another stick to hit, or are we working towards a solution?

https://news.delta.com/active-military-members-invited-board-early-delta-flights

I sense a bit of seperation between international leaders e.g. being confronted by a member withdrawing from hard fought agreements just because, asking blind support shortly after. This has to improve.
Last edited by keesje on Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
LGAviation
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:11 pm

DarthLobster wrote:
trijetsonly wrote:
I think that Germany will not react to that because when they asked the USA to block Trump as president because of being stupid they didn't react either.


Because Germany has an official say in who can run for office in the United States?

Last but not least, the new US ambassador in Berlin has already been warned and is on probation now for being an extreme douchebag.


I didn’t realize being a douchebag was a crime.


I didn't realise that the German government intervened. As for the second part, I think that Germany has rarely been this close to sending a US ambassador home than after Mr Grenell's first day in office. Being a douchebag isn't a crime. Being received as an ambassador is a privilege though that usually isn't long-lived if you're a douchebag and it's these kinds of comments that aren't well-received here although in this instance I wouldn't consider them as douche-baggy as his blatant warning against German businesses doing business with Iran which to many Germans was borderline douchebgaggy and didn't improve his negotiating position.
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keesje
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:18 pm

It seems Ambasadors are handpicked with unclear qualifications. This is the one the dutch got.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=qaDbSKFOA60

The biggest question I have, how long my friends, pefectly sensible Americans, can keep up with this.

Lately they avoid the discussion.. they hate the damage of double standards becoming normal.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
tommy1808
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:21 pm

DarthLobster wrote:
trijetsonly wrote:
I think that Germany will not react to that because when they asked the USA to block Trump as president because of being stupid they didn't react either.


Because Germany has an official say in who can run for office in the United States?


About as much as the US can tell Germany who does and doesn't get to use its airspace I guess..

Last but not least, the new US ambassador in Berlin has already been warned and is on probation now for being an extreme douchebag.


I didn’t realize being a douchebag was a crime.


Well, in diplomacy lots of things are crimes that are usually not.
I am pretty sure ambassadors have been PNGed for less.

LGAviation wrote:
but there is no way in hell that the German government will ban flights of Iran Air and Lufthansa. There is a substantial Persian diaspora here that travels back and forth and the government is working to promote trade with Iran and not to ban it.


:checkmark:
It is one of the government's that just made it illegal for companies to obey US sanctions against Iran and made the European Investment Bank available for payments to and from Iran. So definitely not going to happen.

If someone had quietly pointed out that there are reasons beyond the current US sanctions to ban Mahan Air it may have happened... but now that it is public. No way.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
trijetsonly
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:23 pm

deltal1011man wrote:
trijetsonly wrote:
So who asks? America, the USA or the Trump regime?

I think that Germany will not react to that because when they asked the USA to block Trump as president because of being stupid they didn't react either.

Last but not least, the new US ambassador in Berlin has already been warned and is on probation now for being an extreme douchebag.

lol.

What does this nonsense even mean?


I wasn't serious with the phrase about the US president. But I also didn't expect anyone here to be serious with the wish to ban an airline that does not need to be banned because of safety concerns.
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Varsity1
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:34 pm

keesje wrote:
It seems Ambasadors are handpicked with unclear qualifications. This is the one the dutch got.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=qaDbSKFOA60

The biggest question I have, how long my friends, pefectly sensible Americans, can keep up with this.

Lately they avoid the discussion.. they hate the damage of double standards becoming normal.


We also tire of the double standards the free-loading 'west' has lived the past 30~ years. The EU has behaved more like a protestor than an ally of the United States for most of it's existence. We aren't family, we don't have to agree with or support you unconditionally, and neither do you.

It's no surprise that most European US support comes from the east. They know what it's like to live under true authoritarian rule. West Europe has been coddled far too long.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
Flighty
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:46 pm

Ironic diplomatic exchange possible... clever words needed...
 
N212R
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:01 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
When will be the time that Iranian carriers will be fully banned from the free world?


When will be the time that "Topic Authors" will be banned from creating politically motivated threads?
 
musman9853
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:01 pm

[/quote]

Well, in diplomacy lots of things are crimes that are usually not.
I am pretty sure ambassadors have been PNGed for less.

[/quote]

Persona Non Grata for those wondering. Means that the host country wants that person out of the country
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:03 pm

Unflug wrote:
Maybe Grenell should better ask himself what allies are and how a relation with allies should work...


He also needs to realize that all airspace decisions are made by the EU on behalf of all countries. Germany does not have its own aviation authority, although (and this is a correction) the EASA is based in Cologne.
 
raylee67
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:06 pm

If this is a request ONLY sent to Germany, then this is not a request because of Mahan Air's alleged support of or use by terrorists. Mahan also flies to other EU destinations. It also flies to Dubai, Russia, Pakistan, India and China.

Even if US has not figured out how EU work so it doesn't know the request should be sent to Brussels, not Berlin, it should have sent the request to ALL countries Mahan Air flies to, including its allies such as UAE and its close friend such as Putin. But seems that none of those received this request, did they?

As taken in face value, there is a more probable reason for this request: He doesn't like Germany (which I think everyone can agree) so he is just trying to create challenges in the relationship between US and Germany

Of course, another reason can be because US knows that Russia, India and China will ignore this request, but still I am sure UAE and smaller countries like Greece will reluctantly abide if US asks, so the possible rejection of such request by selective countries still do not explain why this is sent ONLY to Berlin.
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LAXdude1023
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:12 pm

No wonder the rest of the world thinks were so stupid....

Someone should teach these guys how the EU works.
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ual763
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:13 pm

trijetsonly wrote:
The problem with this topic is, that it is much more related to politics than to aviation, especially with the biased post by the thread opener.


Yeah...… Because your first post on the thread wasn't biased or inappropriate....
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
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OA412
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:14 pm

As this topic has delved deeply into politics, it's more appropriate in non aviation. Thank you!
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aemoreira1981
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:17 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
If someone had quietly pointed out that there are reasons beyond the current US sanctions to ban Mahan Air it may have happened... but now that it is public. No way.

Best regards
Thomas


In the case of W5 specifically, they have been noted to (along with 6Q - Cham Wings) have carried out flights at odd times to and from Syria with almost no passengers but full of munitions in the cargo hold, and are acting on behalf of the IRGC as well as Hezbollah and Hamas in support of their terrorist activities, all of which are formally designated foreign terrorist organizations by the US Department of State. W5's Malaysia-based sales agent, Mahan Travel and Tourism Sendirian Berhad, is also under official Treasury sanctions for the same reason, being used to evade banking sanctions.

Come to think of it, I have to imagine that the USA has tried to reason with the EU, but the EU has turned a deaf ear. The idea is that W5 is using its aircraft to covertly support terrorism and that pressure is being put on Germany to potentially seize W5 aircraft landing in Germany (their current destinations there are DUS and MUC, and it needs German airspace to access BHX).

I'm not sure if an airline has ever been designated a foreign terrorist organization, but that may be the next move.
 
ual763
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:25 pm

raylee67 wrote:
If this is a request ONLY sent to Germany, then this is not a request because of Mahan Air's alleged support of or use by terrorists. Mahan also flies to other EU destinations. It also flies to Dubai, Russia, Pakistan, India and China.


But Grenell is the US ambassador to Germany. Therefore he can only comment on Germany, not the rest of the EU.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
ual763
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:37 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
If someone had quietly pointed out that there are reasons beyond the current US sanctions to ban Mahan Air it may have happened... but now that it is public. No way.

Best regards
Thomas


In the case of W5 specifically, they have been noted to (along with 6Q - Cham Wings) have carried out flights at odd times to and from Syria with almost no passengers but full of munitions in the cargo hold, and are acting on behalf of the IRGC as well as Hezbollah and Hamas in support of their terrorist activities, all of which are formally designated foreign terrorist organizations by the US Department of State. W5's Malaysia-based sales agent, Mahan Travel and Tourism Sendirian Berhad, is also under official Treasury sanctions for the same reason, being used to evade banking sanctions.

Come to think of it, I have to imagine that the USA has tried to reason with the EU, but the EU has turned a deaf ear. The idea is that W5 is using its aircraft to covertly support terrorism and that pressure is being put on Germany to potentially seize W5 aircraft landing in Germany (their current destinations there are DUS and MUC, and it needs German airspace to access BHX).

I'm not sure if an airline has ever been designated a foreign terrorist organization, but that may be the next move.


I always enjoy reading your well-thought out responses aemoreira! You clearly state the facts, which is much appreciated.

In my opinion, regardless of politics, an airline that provides support to terrorist groups should be banned. It's a no-brainer. Grenell didn't call for the end of Iran Air flights or Lufthansa flights. He specifically mentioned Mahan Air. That is because Mahan Air has been shown to support terrorist groups. With that said, why would anyone support the airline?

People don't have to hate everything Trump, or a Trump appointed person, does just because of the association with Trump. This is about stopping material support to terrorist groups. It should be of concern to the whole World, and especially Germany since they have had their fare share of terrorist attacks also.

And finally, to all those saying Richard Grenell has no say in European matters: Hate to break it to you, but that is kind of his job. The job of any diplomat is to be the official liaison of the United States to the host country. They are there to project American ideas and ideals to the host country. Sure, the host country isn't required to accept or implement the ideas, but it is still the diplomat's job to represent American interests in Germany.

Regards
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
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Dutchy
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:43 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
keesje wrote:
It seems Ambasadors are handpicked with unclear qualifications. This is the one the dutch got.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=qaDbSKFOA60

The biggest question I have, how long my friends, pefectly sensible Americans, can keep up with this.

Lately they avoid the discussion.. they hate the damage of double standards becoming normal.


We also tire of the double standards the free-loading 'west' has lived the past 30~ years. The EU has behaved more like a protestor than an ally of the United States for most of it's existence. We aren't family, we don't have to agree with or support you unconditionally, and neither do you.

It's no surprise that most European US support comes from the east. They know what it's like to live under true authoritarian rule. West Europe has been coddled far too long.


If your worldview is truly like this, I can't help you. You speak with quite a disdain about western Europe. That is fine, but don't be surprised you will not find a European ear to listen to you.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:52 pm

Varsity1 wrote:

We also tire of the double standards the free-loading 'west' has lived the past 30~ years.


You know quite a few Western states joined you during the Iraq and Afghanistan wars as well as providing support of one kind or another in Syria & Libya.

Let's not forget all the money that's flown into the coffers of companies like Lockheed Martin from the West buying US military equipment. I don't really see the double standards at all.

Varsity1 wrote:

Europe has a such a disdain for Israel when they should be the ones obligated to protect it.


Why on earth should we be obliged to protect one of the most well armed states on the planet? Israel is a big boy, it doesn't need Europe to hold their hand when it's quite capable of defending itself against virtually any adversary.
 
Varsity1
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:13 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
keesje wrote:
It seems Ambasadors are handpicked with unclear qualifications. This is the one the dutch got.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=qaDbSKFOA60

The biggest question I have, how long my friends, pefectly sensible Americans, can keep up with this.

Lately they avoid the discussion.. they hate the damage of double standards becoming normal.


We also tire of the double standards the free-loading 'west' has lived the past 30~ years. The EU has behaved more like a protestor than an ally of the United States for most of it's existence. We aren't family, we don't have to agree with or support you unconditionally, and neither do you.

It's no surprise that most European US support comes from the east. They know what it's like to live under true authoritarian rule. West Europe has been coddled far too long.


If your worldview is truly like this, I can't help you. You speak with quite a disdain about western Europe. That is fine, but don't be surprised you will not find a European ear to listen to you.



Not until it's too late, as typical in Europe.

Germany will be coming under enormous pressure from Russia going forward. A Russia that has no respect or fear from any country on the European continent.

Build that pipeline guys!

Also, The EU is not a country. So until you guys give up all national sovereign rights to it, we can stop referencing it as such. It's a feel good organization that has proved weak, bureaucratic and incapable.
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raylee67
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:21 pm

ual763 wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
If this is a request ONLY sent to Germany, then this is not a request because of Mahan Air's alleged support of or use by terrorists. Mahan also flies to other EU destinations. It also flies to Dubai, Russia, Pakistan, India and China.


But Grenell is the US ambassador to Germany. Therefore he can only comment on Germany, not the rest of the EU.


Yes, but he represents USA. If this request is an official one instead of a casual conversation after everyone is drunk, then this cannot be something he as an Ambassador initiated. This has to be coming from the State Dept., so the other Ambassadors should be sending the same requests to all other countries, and he apparently is not the right one to deliver the request, if it is meant to be really taken care of by the host country, since it should have been delivered to EU by US's Ambassador to EU in Brussels.
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Dutchy
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:26 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

We also tire of the double standards the free-loading 'west' has lived the past 30~ years. The EU has behaved more like a protestor than an ally of the United States for most of it's existence. We aren't family, we don't have to agree with or support you unconditionally, and neither do you.

It's no surprise that most European US support comes from the east. They know what it's like to live under true authoritarian rule. West Europe has been coddled far too long.


If your worldview is truly like this, I can't help you. You speak with quite a disdain about western Europe. That is fine, but don't be surprised you will not find a European ear to listen to you.



Not until it's too late, as typical in Europe.

Germany will be coming under enormous pressure from Russia going forward. A Russia that has no respect or fear from any country on the European continent.

Build that pipeline guys!

Also, The EU is not a country. So until you guys give up all national sovereign rights to it, we can stop referencing it as such. It's a feel good organization that has proved weak, bureaucratic and incapable.


Like I said, with such a worldview I can't help you. You write this with an attitude of superiority, that is fine that you feel like this, but don't be surprised that others will just ignore you. May I offer you a different way: be surprised and curious about what others have to offer and how they think and mainly why. ;)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Varsity1
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:26 pm

raylee67 wrote:
ual763 wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
If this is a request ONLY sent to Germany, then this is not a request because of Mahan Air's alleged support of or use by terrorists. Mahan also flies to other EU destinations. It also flies to Dubai, Russia, Pakistan, India and China.


But Grenell is the US ambassador to Germany. Therefore he can only comment on Germany, not the rest of the EU.


Yes, but he represents USA. If this request is an official one instead of a casual conversation after everyone is drunk, then this cannot be something he as an Ambassador initiated. This has to be coming from the State Dept., so the other Ambassadors should be sending the same requests to all other countries, and he apparently is not the right one to deliver the request, if it is meant to be really taken care of by the host country, since it should have been delivered to EU by US's Ambassador to EU in Brussels.


The EU isn't a country.
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PanHAM
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:30 pm

Ambassador Grenell still does not unerstand what an Ambassador can do and what an Ambassador cannot do. Governments do not take orders from Ambassadors, nor do local companies. He should know that by now.

If someone wants Mahan out of Europe they have to produce evidence why that should be. That may not be so easy as in the days of the Iran/Uraq war when 747s pf ElAl and IR stood side by side here at FRA crossloading military equipment
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Dutchy
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:31 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
ual763 wrote:

But Grenell is the US ambassador to Germany. Therefore he can only comment on Germany, not the rest of the EU.


Yes, but he represents USA. If this request is an official one instead of a casual conversation after everyone is drunk, then this cannot be something he as an Ambassador initiated. This has to be coming from the State Dept., so the other Ambassadors should be sending the same requests to all other countries, and he apparently is not the right one to deliver the request, if it is meant to be really taken care of by the host country, since it should have been delivered to EU by US's Ambassador to EU in Brussels.


The EU isn't a country.


Angela Merkel didn't mind telling your president - 20 times :shock: - that any trade deal needs to be made with the EU, not Germany. We don't mind telling you what the EU is and its responsibilities.

The European Union (EU) is a political and economic union of 28 member states that are located primarily in Europe.[13] It has an area of 4,475,757 km2 (1,728,099 sq mi) and an estimated population of over 510 million. The EU has developed an internal single market through a standardised system of laws that apply in all member states in those matters (only) where members have agreed to act as one. EU policies aim to ensure the free movement of people, goods, services and capital within the internal market,[14] enact legislation in justice and home affairs and maintain common policies on trade,[15] agriculture,[16] fisheries and regional development.[17] For travel within the Schengen Area, passport controls have been abolished.[18] A monetary union was established in 1999 and came into full force in 2002 and is composed of 19 EU member states which use the euro currency.

The EU and European citizenship were established when the Maastricht Treaty was enacted in 1993.[19] The EU traces its origins to the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) and the European Economic Community (EEC), established, respectively, by the 1951 Treaty of Paris and 1957 Treaty of Rome. The original members of what came to be known as the European Communities were the Inner Six: Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and West Germany. The Communities and its successors have grown in size by the accession of new member states and in power by the addition of policy areas to its remit. The latest major amendment to the constitutional basis of the EU, the Treaty of Lisbon, came into force in 2009.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union
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Dutchy
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:35 pm

PanHAM wrote:
Ambassador Grenell still does not unerstand what an Ambassador can do and what an Ambassador cannot do. Governments do not take orders from Ambassadors, nor do local companies. He should know that by now.

If someone wants Mahan out of Europe they have to produce evidence why that should be. That may not be so easy as in the days of the Iran/Uraq war when 747s pf ElAl and IR stood side by side here at FRA crossloading military equipment


:checkmark:

And America's role in the world is diminishing. There were times that European countries were to take such a request and did it. Nowadays, such a request is put at the bottom of a big and growing pile.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Varsity1
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:44 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
raylee67 wrote:

Yes, but he represents USA. If this request is an official one instead of a casual conversation after everyone is drunk, then this cannot be something he as an Ambassador initiated. This has to be coming from the State Dept., so the other Ambassadors should be sending the same requests to all other countries, and he apparently is not the right one to deliver the request, if it is meant to be really taken care of by the host country, since it should have been delivered to EU by US's Ambassador to EU in Brussels.


The EU isn't a country.


Angela Merkel didn't mind telling your president - 20 times :shock: - that any trade deal needs to be made with the EU, not Germany. We don't mind telling you what the EU is and its responsibilities.

The European Union (EU) is a political and economic union of 28 member states that are located primarily in Europe.[13] It has an area of 4,475,757 km2 (1,728,099 sq mi) and an estimated population of over 510 million. The EU has developed an internal single market through a standardised system of laws that apply in all member states in those matters (only) where members have agreed to act as one. EU policies aim to ensure the free movement of people, goods, services and capital within the internal market,[14] enact legislation in justice and home affairs and maintain common policies on trade,[15] agriculture,[16] fisheries and regional development.[17] For travel within the Schengen Area, passport controls have been abolished.[18] A monetary union was established in 1999 and came into full force in 2002 and is composed of 19 EU member states which use the euro currency.

The EU and European citizenship were established when the Maastricht Treaty was enacted in 1993.[19] The EU traces its origins to the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) and the European Economic Community (EEC), established, respectively, by the 1951 Treaty of Paris and 1957 Treaty of Rome. The original members of what came to be known as the European Communities were the Inner Six: Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and West Germany. The Communities and its successors have grown in size by the accession of new member states and in power by the addition of policy areas to its remit. The latest major amendment to the constitutional basis of the EU, the Treaty of Lisbon, came into force in 2009.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union



It's a Union. It has no sovereign rights as a country. How can you not understand that? Some of the countries in it don't even want to participate in it. We don't tell the world it has to negotiate with NAFTA because that would be asinine, and none would oblige. It has no legal standing in the existing international framework.

The American Civil War determined the supremacy and legitmacy of our federal government over state governments. Until the EU can deny sovereign rights to it's member states, it is not a country.

It does not have a seat on the U.N. security council because it is not a country, two of it's members do (soon to be 1).

The 'E.U.' and it's member states are attempting to eat their cake and have it too. "You must negotiate with the E.U. on trade deals, but our airlines can have 12 AOC's allowing them to exploit nuances of exisiting bilateral air agreements (Norwegian)."

Which is it?
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mham001
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:47 pm

Dutchy wrote:
And America's role in the world is diminishing. There were times that European countries were to take such a request and did it. Nowadays, such a request is put at the bottom of a big and growing pile.


Actually, in the end, I think they probably will look into it, despite the kneejerking in this thread, it doesn't seem like an unreasonable thing to talk about diplomatically if they have the evidence. But kneejerking is about all we see out of most European posters.
 
Varsity1
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:49 pm

Dutchy wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
Ambassador Grenell still does not unerstand what an Ambassador can do and what an Ambassador cannot do. Governments do not take orders from Ambassadors, nor do local companies. He should know that by now.

If someone wants Mahan out of Europe they have to produce evidence why that should be. That may not be so easy as in the days of the Iran/Uraq war when 747s pf ElAl and IR stood side by side here at FRA crossloading military equipment


:checkmark:

And America's role in the world is diminishing. There were times that European countries were to take such a request and did it. Nowadays, such a request is put at the bottom of a big and growing pile.


We've seen this before (after ww1). "Europe is big and strong!" until a real big and strong country kicks our a**. It was the soviet union before, it will be Russia again. They have a strategic interest in controlling central/eastern europe, I can't blame them. The US's maneuvering east with NATO and financial crisis has put them behind the 8 ball, but they will regain power and control in continental europe as oil/gas prices rise. China will probably seek a faction as well.
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Varsity1
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:54 pm

Dutchy wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
Ambassador Grenell still does not unerstand what an Ambassador can do and what an Ambassador cannot do. Governments do not take orders from Ambassadors, nor do local companies. He should know that by now.

If someone wants Mahan out of Europe they have to produce evidence why that should be. That may not be so easy as in the days of the Iran/Uraq war when 747s pf ElAl and IR stood side by side here at FRA crossloading military equipment


:checkmark:

And America's role in the world is diminishing. There were times that European countries were to take such a request and did it. Nowadays, such a request is put at the bottom of a big and growing pile.


Additionally; The US never wanted it's current role in the world. We were forced into it when European countries effed up the global order and started the biggest mess in human history. As a result, the USA created the largest peace between major powers in human history and a global order that is more diplomatic than anything ever implemented. But that is never mentioned by our European protestors.

The U.S. is historically an isolationist country. With it's geography and resources, it works out well.
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User avatar
Dutchy
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:55 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
Ambassador Grenell still does not unerstand what an Ambassador can do and what an Ambassador cannot do. Governments do not take orders from Ambassadors, nor do local companies. He should know that by now.

If someone wants Mahan out of Europe they have to produce evidence why that should be. That may not be so easy as in the days of the Iran/Uraq war when 747s pf ElAl and IR stood side by side here at FRA crossloading military equipment


:checkmark:

And America's role in the world is diminishing. There were times that European countries were to take such a request and did it. Nowadays, such a request is put at the bottom of a big and growing pile.


We've seen this before (after ww1). "Europe is big and strong!" until a real big and strong country kicks our a**. It was the soviet union before, it will be Russia again. They have a strategic interest in controlling central/eastern europe, I can't blame them. The US's maneuvering east with NATO and financial crisis has put them behind the 8 ball, but they will regain power and control in continental europe as oil/gas prices rise. China will probably seek a faction as well.


I think you mean after WW2, not WW1. Anyhow, that is an opinion on what might happen. Nothing more.
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Dutchy
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:10 pm

mham001 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And America's role in the world is diminishing. There were times that European countries were to take such a request and did it. Nowadays, such a request is put at the bottom of a big and growing pile.


Actually, in the end, I think they probably will look into it, despite the kneejerking in this thread, it doesn't seem like an unreasonable thing to talk about diplomatically if they have the evidence. But kneejerking is about all we see out of most European posters.


Actually, I agree with you, but if you want to talk about this in a diplomatic way, do it silently, not publicly. Present your evidence, present your course of action and work something out as equals.

The EU wants to maintain the Iran deal because it works. America unilaterally withdrew from it. That is fine, it is your policy to honor commitments or not. That doesn't mean the rest of the world automatically will follow you and don't expect them to.

But heck, what do I know, I am just posting my left wing liberal views.
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Dutchy
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:13 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
Ambassador Grenell still does not unerstand what an Ambassador can do and what an Ambassador cannot do. Governments do not take orders from Ambassadors, nor do local companies. He should know that by now.

If someone wants Mahan out of Europe they have to produce evidence why that should be. That may not be so easy as in the days of the Iran/Uraq war when 747s pf ElAl and IR stood side by side here at FRA crossloading military equipment


:checkmark:

And America's role in the world is diminishing. There were times that European countries were to take such a request and did it. Nowadays, such a request is put at the bottom of a big and growing pile.


Additionally; The US never wanted it's current role in the world. We were forced into it when European countries effed up the global order and started the biggest mess in human history. As a result, the USA created the largest peace between major powers in human history and a global order that is more diplomatic than anything ever implemented. But that is never mentioned by our European protestors.

The U.S. is historically an isolationist country. With it's geography and resources, it works out well.


America is still the new kid on the block. :white:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
UltimoTiger777
Posts: 458
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:26 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
"You must negotiate with the E.U. on trade deals, but our airlines can have 12 AOC's allowing them to exploit nuances of exisiting bilateral air agreements (Norwegian)."

Which is it?


Norway isn't in the EU.
 
Varsity1
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:31 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
"You must negotiate with the E.U. on trade deals, but our airlines can have 12 AOC's allowing them to exploit nuances of exisiting bilateral air agreements (Norwegian)."

Which is it?


Norway isn't in the EU.


Another perfect example of why it shouldn't exist. A mess of 'half members' 'full members' half in, half out, some rights here, but not there. It's a joke, not a country.
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Dutchy
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:36 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
"You must negotiate with the E.U. on trade deals, but our airlines can have 12 AOC's allowing them to exploit nuances of exisiting bilateral air agreements (Norwegian)."

Which is it?


Norway isn't in the EU.


Another perfect example of why it shouldn't exist. A mess of 'half members' 'full members' half in, half out, some rights here, but not there. It's a joke, not a country.


May I ask what your problem is with the EU. America isn't it, so why should you care?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Varsity1
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:43 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:

Norway isn't in the EU.


Another perfect example of why it shouldn't exist. A mess of 'half members' 'full members' half in, half out, some rights here, but not there. It's a joke, not a country.


May I ask what your problem is with the EU. America isn't it, so why should you care?


Because it undermines international law by allowing companies to pick and choose what laws they want to follow depending on how adventagous it is to them.

Why should 400 million negotiate under a single trade agreement, yet each company has 30 unilateral laws and agreements to choose from when competing internationally?
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UltimoTiger777
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:45 pm

Varsity1 wrote:

Another perfect example of why it shouldn't exist. A mess of 'half members' 'full members' half in, half out, some rights here, but not there. It's a joke, not a country.


There are no half members though.

There are 28 member states (soon to be 27). Norway is in EFTA, a completely separate entity. By consent of the parties agreeing the EU-US Open Skies agreement, Norway and Iceland are party to the same agreement.

Perhaps a better example of your statement is the US's overseas territories. Are they "half states"? Why is Puerto Rico treated differently to American Samoa which in turn is treated differently to Hawaii?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: America asks Germany to block Mahan Air b/c terrorism support

Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:49 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

Another perfect example of why it shouldn't exist. A mess of 'half members' 'full members' half in, half out, some rights here, but not there. It's a joke, not a country.


May I ask what your problem is with the EU. America isn't it, so why should you care?


Because it undermines international law by allowing companies to pick and choose what laws they want to follow depending on how adventagous it is to them.

Why should 400 million negotiate under a single trade agreement, yet each company has 30 unilateral laws and agreements to choose from when competing internationally?


That's what I thought, you have a problem with Norwegian. I kind of sympathy with this, because I don't like their way of doing business. But why would you base an opinion about a project which has been in the works for the past 70 years, about a single example?
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