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CitizenJustin
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Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:11 pm

How does a trained officer that’s supposed to possess superior observational skills walk into an apartment she mistakenly thinks is hers and kill the resident? Apparently, the Dallas police want to know the same thing. I just can’t fathom this. Have any of you walked into a home thinking it was yours only to realize it wasn’t? To be fair, all apartment doors look the same, but still, I’ve live in apartments my entire life and have never done this. This is fishy and Dallas PD is trying to obtain a warrant to arrest the officer for man slaughter.

Sadly, this 26 year old man had his bright future taken away by a not so bright, incompetent cop who thought she was in her apartment and caught a black male intruder. These incidents make me wonder who we're allowing to become cops. There seems to be an increase is police mistakes that of course end in the innocent being killed or maybe they’re just reported more.

What say you all? Opinions?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/07/us/dalla ... index.html
 
910A
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:49 pm

Quick couple of points here, why was she wearing her uniform traveling home? Doesn't the department have locker rooms where she could have change? How did she open the door? Did her key work in the man's apartment or was it unlocked? She should have a safety distance between herself and the occupant? Why didn't she back out of the apartment instead of using deadly force?

Sounds like a really bad shooting based on what I've read.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:45 pm

This all sounds very weird. I don't think we are getting all the facts.
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Tugger
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:09 am

This article seems to have the best info on it so far:
https://heavy.com/news/2018/09/botham-shem-jean/

Tugg
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rfields5421
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:30 am

Having lived over 30 years in the DFW area, I've never heard of an officer changing into or out of uniform at the station. The several dozen in DPD and several other departments in the DFW area officers I know and have known in the past all wore their uniforms to and from work.

Also, I used to work in that neighborhood. While it if full of upscale apartments, it is also full of homeless, panhandlers and druggies and drunks sleeping on the sidewalks. I'd expect a woman walking alone in the dark to feel safer wearing her police uniform rather than generic civilian clothes.

We now know from the above article that she was on the wrong floor. I've gone up and opened the apt under mine in a USN high rise in Japan. Didn't realize the elevator stopped a floor early and walked down the hall thinking about something else, opened the door and surprise - that wasn't my wife.

We also now know that the door was locked. She was confused because her key did not work, and then some strange man (the apartment resident) open the door.

It is my opinion that there was a verbal confrontation, that might have escalated to a pushing/ shoving match.

The Dallas police department will arrest the officer this evening for manslaughter once the warrant is processed. She will be bonded out of jail on bail.

The DPD is basically turning this all over to the Dallas County DA office, but is also asking the Texas Rangers (the best statewide investigative body with no allegiance to any city or county police force or DA) to conduct an independent investigation.

Is it a horrible tragedy that two people's lives are destroyed, more so because one is dead.
Last edited by rfields5421 on Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
bagoldex
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:34 am

NIKV69 wrote:
This all sounds very weird. I don't think we are getting all the facts.


A cop wrongfully killed somebody. What's so weird about that? They do it practically every day.
 
BN747
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:34 am

Assuredly there is MORE to it, you know instantly 'this is not your home' (DPD cops look at her entry foyer vs his)...if she was good enough to spot an 'intruder' in order to act so fast as to take this guy's life...then her recognition skills of detecting her errant entry is equally on deck.

It's an affair, new (cop) lover told her how to handle it OR he got a new GF and she wasn't having it...or the music was too loud..

...accident??? No way.

BN747
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WarRI1
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:36 am

A bizarre and tragic incident all around. One life lost, many ruined.
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BawliBooch
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:14 am

Texas? Was the man who was shot Black?

Case closed!
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rfields5421
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:09 am

Watching the story on local Dallas news right now - WFAA

The police officer has not been identified but the Dallas Chief of Police (who is an African American female) described the police officer as a 'Caucasian female'

The victim is a 'black' man from the Carribean.

The police officer went one floor too high in the building. There apparently was no light in the foyer, and limited light in the hallway. I doubt that 'instant recognition' of being in the wrong apartment is a reasonable assertion. Think a minute. You are tired after working, you get home and your key doesn't open the door. Then the door is suddenly opened by a person you do not know. Are you going to look in the apartment or are you going to focus on the person - is he a thief, is he a predator waiting for you to return home. As mentioned above - the idea that a person went to the wrong apartment is far down the list of things one would consider.

I'm not defending the officer. She obviously made a mistake and made a bad shoot. When she called 911, we have heard she described it as an accident that she had gone to the wrong apartment. I've heard nothing that describes how long their interaction lasted.

Personally, I think that meets the definition of manslaughter. But 'Monday morning quarterbacking' without having even heard a description of what happened is juvenile.

We do not know if the officer was in the hallway or in the apartment when the shot was fired.
We do not know how many seconds elapsed between the door being opened and the shot being fired. Less than one? More than 10? A minute?.
We do not know if the apartment resident was angry, questioning or cooperative.
We do not know if the officer was angry, questioning or cooperative.

I've heard one activist describe the officer as being angry when the man opened the door, entering the apartment and walking around for a lengthy time before firing the shot. He is obviously making up information to justify his 'anger'.

The Texas Rangers have taken custody of all evidence, paperwork, etc from the Dallas PD and is interviewing the police officers who responded to the 911 call from the officer who fired the fatal shot. The only video is of the ambulance crew and police officers taking the man out of the building while performing CPR.

Since the officer was off-duty there should be no body-cam video.
 
BN747
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:03 am

[quote="rfields5421"
We do not know if the officer was in the hallway or in the apartment when the shot was fired.
We do not know how many seconds elapsed between the door being opened and the shot being fired. Less than one? More than 10? A minute?.
We do not know if the apartment resident was angry, questioning or cooperative.
We do not know if the officer was angry, questioning or cooperative.[/quote]

...and we don't know whether she knew the man
...and we don't know if she had her gun already drawn...the string of events paint an instant reaction - what it was a kid? That fast on the trigger???? Not adding up!
...and we don't know if words were exchanged

Ever see one of the millions of 'police-in-the-makeshift-setting' test to shot the bad guy or the old lady? Everyone has seen them.

What if it was an old white lady?
What if it was a mom with an infant?
What if it was a 80yo Vietnam Veteran?
What if it was a Heart Surgeon?

...the story as told suggest drawing-firing - ooops I'm sorry as is the 'cop's version.... is pure & utter bullshit.

BN747
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Tugger
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:37 am

I don't know about fishy. To me it is just a sad, bad situation. You had a tired officer going home and she gets to "her apartment", her key doesn't work/is acting up, and a strange man answers "her" door. She's tired, in her mind she's in her place and she not thinking straight and thinking the worst and she is armed and he refuses any of her orders (probably). She stops listening to him and acts on her situation.

Very horrible result for all involved. Her life is screwed, his is ended. It shouldn't have happened, she should have been more aware. But it happened.

As to walking into a place that isn't mine, it has only happened once at a hotel.

Tugg
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Airstud
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:51 am

"Then the door is suddenly opened by a person you do not know."

"and a strange man answers 'her' door."

Yeah. Hi. See, when there's someone at the door of a residence, a criminal intruder illegally in that residence does not open said door.

This is the sort of thing even the lamest police officers should be relied upon to know.
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Tugger
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:13 am

Airstud wrote:
"Then the door is suddenly opened by a person you do not know."

"and a strange man answers 'her' door."

Yeah. Hi. See, when there's someone at the door of a residence, a criminal intruder illegally in that residence does not open said door.

She may have thought she opened the door (as she's trying and it opens).

Look it is all conjecture with us here. I can't absolutely say what happened and neither can anybody else here.

But a man is dead because of this and that is terrible and not right, not OK in any way.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
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flipdewaf
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:06 am

What I can’t understand is why is an arrest warrant required? If I shoot a guy in the street will the police not arrest me on the spot and instead go and get a warrant? Can’t you arrest someone with reasonable suspicion?

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Airstud
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:42 am

flipdewaf wrote:
Can’t you arrest someone with reasonable suspicion?


Only if you've witnessed the crime. Otherwise there are Fourth Amendment issues.

Edit: Why the officer, a sworn police officer, hasn't just turned herself the hell in in the first place is yet another thing about this that just reeks.
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910A
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:15 pm

Airstud wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Can’t you arrest someone with reasonable suspicion?


Only if you've witnessed the crime. Otherwise there are Fourth Amendment issues.

Edit: Why the officer, a sworn police officer, hasn't just turned herself the hell in in the first place is yet another thing about this that just reeks.

Varies by state. In California and Arizona you can arrest someone with reasonable suspicion for a felony. California you have to witness a misdemeanor. Some states require the District Attorney permission and others requires a warrant.
 
Brick
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:43 pm

The local media where I live reported on this story last night and mentioned that the officer was intoxicated at the time of the shooting. That's why were hearing about probable manslaughter charges so soon into the investigation. If found to be true, being drunk while still in uniform is going to be the least of her problems.
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mham001
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:17 pm

910A wrote:
Airstud wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Can’t you arrest someone with reasonable suspicion?


Only if you've witnessed the crime. Otherwise there are Fourth Amendment issues.

Edit: Why the officer, a sworn police officer, hasn't just turned herself the hell in in the first place is yet another thing about this that just reeks.

Varies by state. In California and Arizona you can arrest someone with reasonable suspicion for a felony. California you have to witness a misdemeanor. Some states require the District Attorney permission and others requires a warrant.


I'm not sure what that is all about but police can arrest and hold "suspects" pretty much on a whim for up to 72 hours. And if you are saying California police cannot arrest people for misdemeanors without seeing the crime, you are very mistaken. maybe you mean traffic violations?
 
bennett123
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:51 pm

Personally, I do not buy it.

I recall an incident in Liverpool 10 years ago that happened to me.

I was working late and got back to my Hotel dead tired at 2AM. Went to the desk and asked my key.

Went upstairs and opened the door. As I did so, someone in the bed stirred.

I realised that it was the wrong room in an instant. So I closed the door very carefully and made my way rapidly downstairs.

At that time people make mistakes but you wake up in an instant.
 
Okie
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:15 pm

I can only prognosticate here, but my guess is that the officers key would not work and was making enough commotion that it woke up the neighbor and looking through the peep hole he opened the door seeing the police in uniform outside the door.

Airstud wrote:
Edit: Why the officer, a sworn police officer, hasn't just turned herself the hell in in the first place is yet another thing about this that just reeks.

According to the articles she self reported the crime and submitted for alcohol and drug tests.
Not exactly sure what else you would have to do.
Anything after that is at the discretion of the DA on charges.



Okie
 
BN747
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:24 pm

Tugger wrote:
I don't know about fishy. To me it is just a sad, bad situation. You had a tired officer going home and she gets to "her apartment", her key doesn't work/is acting up, and a strange man answers "her" door. She's tired, in her mind she's in her place and she not thinking straight and thinking the worst and she is armed and he refuses any of her orders (probably). She stops listening to him and acts on her situation.

Very horrible result for all involved. Her life is screwed, his is ended. It shouldn't have happened, she should have been more aware. But it happened.

As to walking into a place that isn't mine, it has only happened once at a hotel.

Tugg


Now re-write your scenario and factor in the report coming in that she was intoxicated...

BN747
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Tugger
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:57 pm

BN747 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I don't know about fishy. To me it is just a sad, bad situation. You had a tired officer going home and she gets to "her apartment", her key doesn't work/is acting up, and a strange man answers "her" door. She's tired, in her mind she's in her place and she not thinking straight and thinking the worst and she is armed and he refuses any of her orders (probably). She stops listening to him and acts on her situation.

Very horrible result for all involved. Her life is screwed, his is ended. It shouldn't have happened, she should have been more aware. But it happened.

As to walking into a place that isn't mine, it has only happened once at a hotel.

Tugg


Now re-write your scenario and factor in the report coming in that she was intoxicated...

BN747

Yup. All bad news. On her part in particular, armed and intoxicated... It's a disaster. Illegal too I think.
I don't see it as intentional but she is at fault no matter what (obviously).

Tugg
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johns624
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:14 pm

How do we know she was "tired"? Did she drive a patrol car? Did she walk a "beat". Did she sit at a desk at HQ? Any civilian who has a CPL?CHL/CCW has it repeatedly drummed into their heads during class that you can only use your gun if you are in threat of death or great bodily harm. I don't see that here and I didn't see it with the idiot in FL who thought he was the handicapped parking spot enforcement agent.
 
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EstherLouise
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:17 pm

910A wrote:
Quick couple of points here, why was she wearing her uniform traveling home?


Every cop I know wears their uniform from home to work and vice versa. Not all police stations have locker rooms.
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meecrob
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:48 pm

Airstud wrote:
"Then the door is suddenly opened by a person you do not know."

"and a strange man answers 'her' door."

Yeah. Hi. See, when there's someone at the door of a residence, a criminal intruder illegally in that residence does not open said door.

This is the sort of thing even the lamest police officers should be relied upon to know.


I agree with your logic, but its not true. Criminals have many tools, and one of them is deterrence. Criminals of a certain variety will actively try to scare people away by simply looking and acting like criminals. Think of it this way: They know they are doing something illegal, and they don't want anybody to see, so they will basically be like "hey, I'm a criminal, now go away or bad things will happen." If you are a regular civilian, your response is probably going to be "I should call the police" not "I should solve this situation myself" thus giving them a bit more time to escape. Sorry, my example isn't the best but to your point about officers being trained to notice things, this screams of it. Officers are trained to realize when someone is a little too cocky for their own good (it was his apartment, but she thought it was her's), they might be up to something...of course this all falls through the cracks when the officer has bad information from the get go (wrong floor, intoxicated, etc). This seems to me like a terrible tragedy that will hopefully be studied to change police training.
 
D L X
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:26 pm

I’m reading unconfirmed reports that he two were or had been dating. Stay tuned.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:37 pm

Nonsense like this is why I am seriously considering leaving the US when I have children. The US is the only country in the world where I walk around wondering if some random armed person is going to shoot and kill me.

I do not know Mr. Jean but church of Christ world is pretty small so we have some mutual acquaintances and my cousin is a board member at Harding, the university he attended. Everyone is crushed. They are baffled as to why this occurred and why this officer has not been kept in custody. There is no excuse for shooting this man and so far this has been Blue privilege at its finest.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:49 pm

If only he had lived elsewhere, this shooting might have been prevented. He was clearly in the wrong neighborhood.
#TotsAndPearsToTheOfficer #BlueLivesMatter

Am I doing it right?

All that aside, it's just baffling how you don't recognize your own apartment. That's an easy excuse if the complex is a winding maze and you haven't lived there very long (probably a month is the most I'm willing to give before you can't pull the "I didn't know" excuse). If my key doesn't go in and open a lock, one of two things is happening:
1. I'm using the wrong key on the right lock
2. I'm using the right key on the wrong lock

Either one should give me pause to assess my surroundings and figure out why the key is not working.

I figure this officer is the kind of officer that would kill themselves trying to figure out why their gun didn't shoot when clicked.
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par13del
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:37 am

If you hear someone trying to open your door, would you look through the peephole before calling 911?
If you look through the peephole and see a cop, knowing that you are not a criminal, would you open the door or call 911?
 
rfields5421
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:11 am

Not much additional news today, but to address some points above.

1. Police, friends of the two and the man's family all say they were not dating. The photo circulating on social media of the two supposedly together has been shown to be a fake. He is in the picture, she is not. All reports I'm seeing from all four major DFW TV stations and the newspapers say there in nothing except wild speculation that they knew each other. People from their building say they never saw the two together, that they did not know each other.

2. Her name and a photo have been released. If you care that much, go to WFAA.com and look.

3. The Dallas Police Department has said that the Texas Rangers have interviewed the officer involved and asked the DA and the DPD to not proceed forward with a warrant.

4. She was a patrol officer. Which mainly means she drived a police car alone. She responds to crime scenes, calls for assistance, auto accidents, reports of active shooters and anything else. She worked at least 12 hours, though some reports say she may have worked for 16 hours. She was late getting out of the building because she arrested someone near the end of her shift and it takes a couple or three hours to do the paperwork to justify the arrest and to book the person into the jail. so we know she had been on duty for at least 12 hours plus another at least two hours, it may have been 16 and 18 hours.

5. Haven't heard any reports that she had been drinking. There is no bar, restaurant or other place in that area where an officer in uniform, even off duty, would drink.

Edit: Why the officer, a sworn police officer, hasn't just turned herself the hell in in the first place is yet another thing about this that just reeks.


6. She reported the shooting, turned over her weapon to the officers who responded. She was cooperative with police and paramedics. She went to the police headquarters and stayed there many hours talking with investigators and others. As with most police officer involved shootings, I'm sure an attorney provided by the police officer's union was at the police HQ when she arrived and was with her during all questioning.

What I can’t understand is why is an arrest warrant required? If I shoot a guy in the street will the police not arrest me on the spot and instead go and get a warrant? Can’t you arrest someone with reasonable suspicion?


Reasonable suspicion of a CRIME. There are literally dozens of reasons a person could shoot another dead and it not be a crime. To prevent injury or death to another, In fear of your own life, If attacked. She was cooperative and not a danger to flee.

Another reason to proceed with an arrest warrant is support a request for high bail, or no bail. History tells us that the founders of the United States were very much against what they saw as abuses of arrests and bail to punish people who were unpopular, who weren't in favor with the local authorities, etc. The Constitution and Amendments require that when a person is arrested there be justification, and that bail be 'reasonable'. I know it is the current trend in the US to argue a person should not be allowed out on bail for a major crime.

Frankly arresting everyone and locking them up before the investigation is against everything being an America stands for. I doubt the officer feels she is free and not restricted in her movements and abilities. She is the suspect in a death. Almost every minute she is aware she might end up in jail. That she almost certainly will end up in jail at some point.

It is against the Constitution and Amendments and several laws to begin the person's punishment by jailing them without bail.

Also arresting a person and putting them in jail without a warrant can be something which gains the defendant sympathy from a jury at a trial. I can just see a lawyer arguing "Did they give her a chance to explain, to tell her story. Hell no, she was convicted in the mind of the police and the public before the man even died. Rushed to jail without the rights guaranteed by our laws and Constitution."

There are only a couple reasons to justify no bail or very high bail.
1. Flight risk - justified fear that the suspect might flee. This officer made no attempt to flee the scene. She cooperated fully, expressed significant remorse.
2. Fear of committing another crime
3. A past history of flight or multiple crimes.

In Texas, a person who proclaims a fear for their own life, or the lives of others, when firing a weapon at someone else is presumed under the law to have acted justifiably. An arrest is seldom done before an investigation provides sufficient evidence to convince a grand jury that a crime was committed. If this officer said "I was afraid he was going to attack me" it becomes a stand your ground case.

I haven't searched this forum, but did anyone here express the opinion that the Uber driver in Florida who killed a man threatening him was unjustified?
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:19 am

i have never figured out, why some people, decided to defend someone who's clearly in the wrong, makes up excuses for them, when they don't even know what happened.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:24 am

CitizenJustin wrote:
How does a trained officer that’s supposed to possess superior observational skills walk into an apartment she mistakenly thinks is hers and kill the resident? To be fair, all apartment doors look the same, but still, I’ve live in apartments my entire life and have never done this.


Being equally fair, the following detailed news report about the officer indicates she'd only lived in the building for a month.

https://heavy.com/news/2018/09/amber-guyger/

Sad for everyone involved; two lives ended here, one literally and another figuratively. Still waiting to get more facts before definitively stating that the officer needs to be arrested and prosecuted, just as the Texas Rangers are.
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FL52RA41
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:38 am

I think it was a case of she being stressed and overtired after a long day, and had gone to the wrong apartment. But unless he had a weapon then it's a really tragedy!
 
Airstud
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:43 am

EA CO AS wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
How does a trained officer that’s supposed to possess superior observational skills walk into an apartment she mistakenly thinks is hers and kill the resident? To be fair, all apartment doors look the same, but still, I’ve live in apartments my entire life and have never done this.


Being equally fair, the following detailed news report about the officer indicates she'd only lived in the building for a month.

https://heavy.com/news/2018/09/amber-guyger/

Sad for everyone involved; two lives ended here, one literally and another figuratively. Still waiting to get more facts before definitively stating that the officer needs to be arrested and prosecuted, just as the Texas Rangers are.


I think a month is quite long enough to develop a habit of knowing where the hell your own residence is.
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rfields5421
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:12 pm

I thought for some reason the name of the police officer was familiar. About a year ago she was involved in another incident where she shot a suspect.

That altercation escalated after the suspect attacked her and took away the taser she had drawn. As he tried to figure out how to use the taser on her, she pulled her weapon and fired, striking the suspect. He recovered and plead guilt to assaulting the officer and violation of his parole. Recently sentenced to three additional years in the state prison to be served after he completes the original sentence for which he had been paroled.

I'm not defending the lady. All I'm saying is that some people on this forum are just as guilty of rushing to judgement and demanding punishment without knowing the facts of the case.

No one but the officer knows the truth. Everyone else including the Texas Rangers doing the investigation only knows parts of the story.

Under the laws of the United States, and the principles under which this nation was founded - there is supposed to be a presumption of innocence. No person suspected of or charged with a crime has to prove their innocence. The police have to find evidence of a crime and the prosecutor has to prove there was a crime and the person charged is the one who committed that crime.

Under Texas law, if a person shoots, maybe kills, another person and says they were in fear for their life, the police must provide evidence that the person who fired the shot was not fearful in their own mind when they fired. Not that a reasonable person should not have been fearful, but that the actual person was not fearful. I know it is a sick, stupid twisting of a principle. But that is the law passed by the stupid assholes in the state legislature and signed by our perverted power hungry governor.

Personally, I think manslaughter is not a sufficient crime to charge her with. But I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know. My retired police officer friends say the story so far stinks. Something isn't right.

However they, as I, caution that no one knows the full story yet. It may be a justified shooting, it may be a case of cold calculated premeditated murder.

One thing for sure, I'm hearing this lady's law enforcement license is going to be revoked. She will never legally work as a police officer or carry a handgun in the state of Texas again.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:02 pm

DL717 wrote:
Glad you were there to see it all happen. We appreciate you letting us know what you saw.

The officer admits to walking up to the wrong apartment and shoot its resident under the pretense that it was her apartment. What else is there to see?

If I walked up to the wrong house and shot its resident, would you give me the benefit of the doubt? If the resident had pulled out a gun, why would they be at fault, especially in a state that has "stand your ground" law (and by extension, castle doctrine)?
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:54 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
How does a trained officer that’s supposed to possess superior observational skills walk into an apartment she mistakenly thinks is hers and kill the resident? To be fair, all apartment doors look the same, but still, I’ve live in apartments my entire life and have never done this.


Being equally fair, the following detailed news report about the officer indicates she'd only lived in the building for a month.

https://heavy.com/news/2018/09/amber-guyger/

Sad for everyone involved; two lives ended here, one literally and another figuratively. Still waiting to get more facts before definitively stating that the officer needs to be arrested and prosecuted, just as the Texas Rangers are.


Now that I think of it, I remember when I was apartment hunting in the same area. Some of the newer apartments are a maze of hallways and floors that look identical. I suppose I could buy her story, but shooting and killing someone brings it to a whole different level.
 
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DL717
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:31 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Glad you were there to see it all happen. We appreciate you letting us know what you saw.

The officer admits to walking up to the wrong apartment and shoot its resident under the pretense that it was her apartment. What else is there to see?

If I walked up to the wrong house and shot its resident, would you give me the benefit of the doubt? If the resident had pulled out a gun, why would they be at fault, especially in a state that has "stand your ground" law (and by extension, castle doctrine)?


Something about a fair trial.
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johns624
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:56 pm

DL717 wrote:

Something about a fair trial.
If any of us were on the jury, that would actually mean something, but we aren't, so it doesn't.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:11 am

DL717 wrote:
Something about a fair trial.

Something she didn't allow the person she shot.

Fair trials are fair to the point where both parties are able to sort out their differences; when one party (by mistake or purposely) renders the other party unable to defend themselves, it stops being "fair".

Besides, what's fair about someone who admits to being negligent? What? Let her go without consequences because "accidents happen"? She's an officer of the law and as such should be given preferential treatment?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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DL717
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:33 am

Amazing how little people give a flying shit about due process around here.
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WarRI1
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:32 am

It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Flighty
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:31 am

FL52RA41 wrote:
I think it was a case of she being stressed and overtired after a long day, and had gone to the wrong apartment. But unless he had a weapon then it's a really tragedy!


If he had had a weapon, he could have prevented his own tragic manslaughter by eliminating this threat. And if he had done so, it would not be manslaughter, it would be defending his home.

Just something to think about.
 
FlyingColours
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:49 am

Flighty wrote:
If he had had a weapon, he could have prevented his own tragic manslaughter by eliminating this threat. And if he had done so, it would not be manslaughter, it would be defending his home.
Just something to think about.


True but how well would that hold up given she was in uniform?

Phil
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:11 am

FlyingColours wrote:
Flighty wrote:
If he had had a weapon, he could have prevented his own tragic manslaughter by eliminating this threat. And if he had done so, it would not be manslaughter, it would be defending his home.
Just something to think about.


True but how well would that hold up given she was in uniform?

Phil
FlyingColours


Agreed. He'd be locked up and there'd be a chorus of back the badge types calling her a martyr.

Having that been said... I have to say good work to the Texas Rangers and DPD for handling this professionally.

Due process will take it from here, but I feel like this will do a lot to show the public that Law Enforcement means business and will not take lightly some idiot (be it thru malice or negligence) besmirching their uniform.

Americans need to know cops are not the enemy and departments prosecuting cases like this will go a long way to this end.
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moo
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:11 am

Flighty wrote:
FL52RA41 wrote:
I think it was a case of she being stressed and overtired after a long day, and had gone to the wrong apartment. But unless he had a weapon then it's a really tragedy!


If he had had a weapon, he could have prevented his own tragic manslaughter by eliminating this threat. And if he had done so, it would not be manslaughter, it would be defending his home.

Just something to think about.


And if this was in the UK, neither of them would have been armed and no one would have died.

Why is "lets add more guns to the scenario" ever valid?!

Even if he had had a gun, I highly doubt that he would be carrying it in a shoulder holster or on the hip just waiting for the lunatic to come through his door, so it's unlikely to have helped him...
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:54 am

rfields5421 wrote:
Not much additional news today, but to address some points above.

1. Police, friends of the two and the man's family all say they were not dating. The photo circulating on social media of the two supposedly together has been shown to be a fake. He is in the picture, she is not. All reports I'm seeing from all four major DFW TV stations and the newspapers say there in nothing except wild speculation that they knew each other. People from their building say they never saw the two together, that they did not know each other.

2. Her name and a photo have been released. If you care that much, go to WFAA.com and look.

3. The Dallas Police Department has said that the Texas Rangers have interviewed the officer involved and asked the DA and the DPD to not proceed forward with a warrant.

4. She was a patrol officer. Which mainly means she drived a police car alone. She responds to crime scenes, calls for assistance, auto accidents, reports of active shooters and anything else. She worked at least 12 hours, though some reports say she may have worked for 16 hours. She was late getting out of the building because she arrested someone near the end of her shift and it takes a couple or three hours to do the paperwork to justify the arrest and to book the person into the jail. so we know she had been on duty for at least 12 hours plus another at least two hours, it may have been 16 and 18 hours.

5. Haven't heard any reports that she had been drinking. There is no bar, restaurant or other place in that area where an officer in uniform, even off duty, would drink.

Edit: Why the officer, a sworn police officer, hasn't just turned herself the hell in in the first place is yet another thing about this that just reeks.


6. She reported the shooting, turned over her weapon to the officers who responded. She was cooperative with police and paramedics. She went to the police headquarters and stayed there many hours talking with investigators and others. As with most police officer involved shootings, I'm sure an attorney provided by the police officer's union was at the police HQ when she arrived and was with her during all questioning.

What I can’t understand is why is an arrest warrant required? If I shoot a guy in the street will the police not arrest me on the spot and instead go and get a warrant? Can’t you arrest someone with reasonable suspicion?


Reasonable suspicion of a CRIME. There are literally dozens of reasons a person could shoot another dead and it not be a crime. To prevent injury or death to another, In fear of your own life, If attacked. She was cooperative and not a danger to flee.

Another reason to proceed with an arrest warrant is support a request for high bail, or no bail. History tells us that the founders of the United States were very much against what they saw as abuses of arrests and bail to punish people who were unpopular, who weren't in favor with the local authorities, etc. The Constitution and Amendments require that when a person is arrested there be justification, and that bail be 'reasonable'. I know it is the current trend in the US to argue a person should not be allowed out on bail for a major crime.

Frankly arresting everyone and locking them up before the investigation is against everything being an America stands for. I doubt the officer feels she is free and not restricted in her movements and abilities. She is the suspect in a death. Almost every minute she is aware she might end up in jail. That she almost certainly will end up in jail at some point.

It is against the Constitution and Amendments and several laws to begin the person's punishment by jailing them without bail.

Also arresting a person and putting them in jail without a warrant can be something which gains the defendant sympathy from a jury at a trial. I can just see a lawyer arguing "Did they give her a chance to explain, to tell her story. Hell no, she was convicted in the mind of the police and the public before the man even died. Rushed to jail without the rights guaranteed by our laws and Constitution."

There are only a couple reasons to justify no bail or very high bail.
1. Flight risk - justified fear that the suspect might flee. This officer made no attempt to flee the scene. She cooperated fully, expressed significant remorse.
2. Fear of committing another crime
3. A past history of flight or multiple crimes.

In Texas, a person who proclaims a fear for their own life, or the lives of others, when firing a weapon at someone else is presumed under the law to have acted justifiably. An arrest is seldom done before an investigation provides sufficient evidence to convince a grand jury that a crime was committed. If this officer said "I was afraid he was going to attack me" it becomes a stand your ground case.

I haven't searched this forum, but did anyone here express the opinion that the Uber driver in Florida who killed a man threatening him was unjustified?


Wow, now that is some serious boot-licking.

If doesn't matter if she was tired or not. If a civilian acted this way and shot some it would be no excuse. I support the 2nd Amendment but there is no way this shooting was justified. She needs the needle.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:57 am

FL52RA41 wrote:
I think it was a case of she being stressed and overtired after a long day, and had gone to the wrong apartment. But unless he had a weapon then it's a really tragedy!


Being tired is no excuse. Law enforcement should be held to a higher standard.
 
Flighty
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Re: Cop walks into wrong apartment and kills neighbor

Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:28 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
FlyingColours wrote:
Flighty wrote:
If he had had a weapon, he could have prevented his own tragic manslaughter by eliminating this threat. And if he had done so, it would not be manslaughter, it would be defending his home.
Just something to think about.


True but how well would that hold up given she was in uniform?

Phil
FlyingColours


Agreed. He'd be locked up and there'd be a chorus of back the badge types calling her a martyr.

Having that been said... I have to say good work to the Texas Rangers and DPD for handling this professionally.

Due process will take it from here, but I feel like this will do a lot to show the public that Law Enforcement means business and will not take lightly some idiot (be it thru malice or negligence) besmirching their uniform.

Americans need to know cops are not the enemy and departments prosecuting cases like this will go a long way to this end.


100% agreed, this guy was doomed when she got off on the wrong floor. But I still raise it in theory. Defending yourself against police misconduct is largely theoretical. It is completely legal to defend yourself against unlawful arrest, police assault, up to and past the use of lethal force. Just because a criminal has a badge doesn't mean they can rob you and kill you. It takes significant education to begin to accurately understand your rights.

I have heard the protocol "am I being detained," and that is a good one. "Are you threatening me" might be another escalation. A police officer does not have the right to use force on someone without a reason. The use of body cam video might give some needed common ground to all of this. Neither police nor citizens should go around wildly breaking the law.

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