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Scorpius
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The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:40 am

In brief: the Russian Ministry of Defense presented documentation for the missile, the wreckage of which was presented during the investigation of the mh17 disaster.
Rocket serial number 8.30.113, 24.12.1986 was produced at the plant in city Dolgoprudny. At the same time, in December 1986, the missile was sent to the military unit №20152, which was located in the city of Terebovlya, Ternopil region, Ukrainian SSR. After the collapse of the USSR military unit number 20152 became part of the Armed forces of Ukraine and was renamed the 223rd anti-aircraft missile Terebovlyanskyy regiment.
In addition, it shows that some of the videos used as "evidence of the redeployment of the Russian" BUK "system" - are forged, including with installation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFjS1mBHslY
 
tommy1808
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:45 am

Took them long to fake the paper trail...
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:47 am

Present your evidence to the investigators. We have seen a lot of BS from Russian military and government sources, so why would this be any different? They have zero credibility in this. But I am sure the Dutch prosecutors will do their research if the Russians would hand over everything, because they are required to do so by law.

Makes you wonder, though, why now? Does the Puting regime need a distraction for domestic use because of all the protest for raising the pension age? Ah well, I guess it is better than starting another war.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:03 am

Dutchy wrote:
Present your evidence to the investigators. We have seen a lot of BS from Russian military and government sources, so why would this be any different? They have zero credibility in this. But I am sure the Dutch prosecutors will do their research if the Russians would hand over everything, because they are required to do so by law.

Makes you wonder, though, why now? Does the Puting regime need a distraction for domestic use because of all the protest for raising the pension age? Ah well, I guess it is better than starting another war.

In 7 minutes, you managed to watch the briefing, which is 37 minutes? Or you simply hurry to declare the data provided by the Ministry of defence of Russia lie? And what right do you have after that to say something about impartiality?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:13 am

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Present your evidence to the investigators. We have seen a lot of BS from Russian military and government sources, so why would this be any different? They have zero credibility in this. But I am sure the Dutch prosecutors will do their research if the Russians would hand over everything, because they are required to do so by law.

Makes you wonder, though, why now? Does the Puting regime need a distraction for domestic use because of all the protest for raising the pension age? Ah well, I guess it is better than starting another war.

In 7 minutes, you managed to watch the briefing, which is 37 minutes? Or you simply hurry to declare the data provided by the Ministry of defence of Russia lie? And what right do you have after that to say something about impartiality?


Based on every bullshit story which has been investigated and disproven by the investigators. As I said, they are happy to investigate this new "evidence" and see if there is some truth in it.

Since the investigation concluded that the launcher came from a Russian military base, even you can't call them impartial, now can you.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:18 am

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Present your evidence to the investigators. We have seen a lot of BS from Russian military and government sources, so why would this be any different? They have zero credibility in this. But I am sure the Dutch prosecutors will do their research if the Russians would hand over everything, because they are required to do so by law.

Makes you wonder, though, why now? Does the Puting regime need a distraction for domestic use because of all the protest for raising the pension age? Ah well, I guess it is better than starting another war.

In 7 minutes, you managed to watch the briefing, which is 37 minutes? Or you simply hurry to declare the data provided by the Ministry of defence of Russia lie? And what right do you have after that to say something about impartiality?


Based on every bullshit story which has been investigated and disproven by the investigators. As I said, they are happy to investigate this new "evidence" and see if there is some truth in it.

Since the investigation concluded that the launcher came from a Russian military base, even you can't call them impartial, now can you.


And of course before having proof that it was an Ukranian Buk, they also had proof it was an Ukranian SU-25.....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:20 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
In 7 minutes, you managed to watch the briefing, which is 37 minutes? Or you simply hurry to declare the data provided by the Ministry of defence of Russia lie? And what right do you have after that to say something about impartiality?


Based on every bullshit story which has been investigated and disproven by the investigators. As I said, they are happy to investigate this new "evidence" and see if there is some truth in it.

Since the investigation concluded that the launcher came from a Russian military base, even you can't call them impartial, now can you.


And of course before having proof that it was an Ukranian Buk, they also had proof it was an Ukranian SU-25.....

best regards
Thomas


indeed one of the bs stories.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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scbriml
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:41 am

Scorpius wrote:
In 7 minutes, you managed to watch the briefing, which is 37 minutes?


Like me, he probably didn't want to waste 37 minutes of his life watching a briefing in Russian that he cannot understand. Doesn't seem unreasonable.

I'll wait for an English language transcript from a reputable source.

A reasonable person might ask, why has it taken Russia over four years to provide this "evidence"? :scratchchin:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Scorpius
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:44 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
In 7 minutes, you managed to watch the briefing, which is 37 minutes? Or you simply hurry to declare the data provided by the Ministry of defence of Russia lie? And what right do you have after that to say something about impartiality?


Based on every bullshit story which has been investigated and disproven by the investigators. As I said, they are happy to investigate this new "evidence" and see if there is some truth in it.

Since the investigation concluded that the launcher came from a Russian military base, even you can't call them impartial, now can you.


And of course before having proof that it was an Ukranian Buk, they also had proof it was an Ukranian SU-25.....

best regards
Thomas

Remind me again? Was it proof, or just a theory?
 
Scorpius
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:53 am

scbriml wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
In 7 minutes, you managed to watch the briefing, which is 37 minutes?


Like me, he probably didn't want to waste 37 minutes of his life watching a briefing in Russian that he cannot understand. Doesn't seem unreasonable.

I'll wait for an English language transcript from a reputable source.

A reasonable person might ask, why has it taken Russia over four years to provide this "evidence"? :scratchchin:

When I was brought the wreckage of the rocket? 4 years ago, or 6 months have passed since then?
3.5 years from the investigative group on the case of MH17, it was impossible to achieve any concrete data as soon as they introduced the missile serial number has been raised to the archives and found all the documentation on this rocket. At the moment, the documents can track the entire path of the rocket. Only now I have a suspicion that the Ukrainian side has already "lost"such documents.
 
Scorpius
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:10 am

Also at the briefing in the defense Ministry submitted a recording of the intercepted telephone conversations of the Ukrainian military made in 2016 in the Odessa region in the preparation of the units of missile-technical troops of the armed forces of Ukraine to exercise "Rubezh-2016". The recording was made during the setup of the radar "malachite". On it they, in particular, discuss the collapse of the Malaysian Boeing.
"Take this kerevnika (leader. — RBC.***** ,) Take the lion and say, "Boys, if that be so, then ***** ****** (strike. - RBC) another Malaysian Boeing, and all will be *******", — sounds on this record. This voice, declared in the Ministry of defence, belongs to the Colonel of armed forces of Ukraine Ruslan Grinchak.
 
tommy1808
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:16 am

Scorpius wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Based on every bullshit story which has been investigated and disproven by the investigators. As I said, they are happy to investigate this new "evidence" and see if there is some truth in it.

Since the investigation concluded that the launcher came from a Russian military base, even you can't call them impartial, now can you.


And of course before having proof that it was an Ukranian Buk, they also had proof it was an Ukranian SU-25.....

best regards
Thomas

Remind me again? Was it proof, or just a theory?


Neither. Made up BS, including faked radar tracks. So what is happening today is basically:

"Forget the forged evidence we showed four years ago, we have much improved forgeries now!"

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Scorpius
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:35 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

And of course before having proof that it was an Ukranian Buk, they also had proof it was an Ukranian SU-25.....

best regards
Thomas

Remind me again? Was it proof, or just a theory?


Neither. Made up BS, including faked radar tracks. So what is happening today is basically:

"Forget the forged evidence we showed four years ago, we have much improved forgeries now!"

best regards
Thomas

You can disprove that at the time of accident of MH17 in the same area there was a Ukrainian su-25? By the way, the same pilot by the name of Voloshin, died under strange circumstances in Ukraine in the spring of 2018 (officially, the Ukrainian authorities said that it was a suicide). An amazing coincidence, isn't it?

You can disprove that at the time of accident of MH17 in the same area there was a Ukrainian su-25? By the way, the same pilot Vladislav Voloshin, died under strange circumstances in Ukraine in the spring of 2018 (officially, the Ukrainian authorities said that it was a suicide). An amazing coincidence, isn't it? The Ministry of defense of the Russian Federation at the time assumed that was in the area unidentified su-25 could POSSIBLY take part in the operation to shoot down MH17.
So the version that the Boeing was shot down by su-25 was the only version, which is itself of the defense Ministry subsequently refused. So why are you trying to declare one of the working versions of the investigation a fake? You're misinforming people. The question is, why are you doing this?
 
tommy1808
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:40 am

Scorpius wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Remind me again? Was it proof, or just a theory?


Neither. Made up BS, including faked radar tracks. So what is happening today is basically:

"Forget the forged evidence we showed four years ago, we have much improved forgeries now!"

best regards
Thomas

You can disprove that at the time of accident of MH17 in the same area there was a Ukrainian su-25?


Can you disprove Putin didn´t personally travel to Ukraine to pretty the fire button to shoot down MH17 and then headed back to Moscow?

You can´t? So obviously we need to take that theory serious.

Well, i guess i have proven the Putin did it. Awesome!

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Scorpius
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:03 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

And of course before having proof that it was an Ukranian Buk, they also had proof it was an Ukranian SU-25.....

best regards
Thomas

Remind me again? Was it proof, or just a theory?


Neither. Made up BS, including faked radar tracks. So what is happening today is basically:

"Forget the forged evidence we showed four years ago, we have much improved forgeries now!"

best regards
Thomas

Please show the official statements from the defense Ministry about some BS. It seems to me that you are now trying to give the headlines of yellow Newspapers as official statements of the state service of the Russian Federation.
 
Scorpius
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:13 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Neither. Made up BS, including faked radar tracks. So what is happening today is basically:

"Forget the forged evidence we showed four years ago, we have much improved forgeries now!"

best regards
Thomas

You can disprove that at the time of accident of MH17 in the same area there was a Ukrainian su-25?


Can you disprove Putin didn´t personally travel to Ukraine to pretty the fire button to shoot down MH17 and then headed back to Moscow?

You can´t? So obviously we need to take that theory serious.

Well, i guess i have proven the Putin did it. Awesome!

best regards
Thomas



You're doing demagoguery, trying to get the facts straight. And the facts are as follows: documents are presented which say that the rocket which parts showed JIT - was delivered to Ukraine and belonged to the Ukrainian troops.
 
tommy1808
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:29 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Please show the official statements from the defense Ministry about some BS. It seems to me that you are now trying to give the headlines of yellow Newspapers as official statements of the state service of the Russian Federation.


you are so cute. There is a difference between a Russian Newspaper and the Russian government? Some Russian freedom fighter blew up the Kremlin and i didn´t hear about it?

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Scorpius
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:42 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Please show the official statements from the defense Ministry about some BS. It seems to me that you are now trying to give the headlines of yellow Newspapers as official statements of the state service of the Russian Federation.


you are so cute. There is a difference between a Russian Newspaper and the Russian government? Some Russian freedom fighter blew up the Kremlin and i didn´t hear about it?

best regards
Thomas

Wait, you're saying there's no difference between an article in some Echo of Moscow and an official statement by Russian government officials? You made my day!


So still, would it be difficult for you to bring here a reference to the fact that official representatives of the Russian government, the Russian Ministry of Defense or the Russian Ministry of foreign Affairs would declare some BS, which you tell us about?
 
tommy1808
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:47 pm

Scorpius wrote:
declare some BS, which you tell us about?


Because both stories are obvious nonsense, since Putin did personally shot down MH17, as you failed to proof he didn´t.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Scorpius
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:56 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
declare some BS, which you tell us about?


Because both stories are obvious nonsense, since Putin did personally shot down MH17, as you failed to proof he didn´t.

best regards
Thomas


Hmm, for some reason I thought that you would not be able to bring evidence that Russian officials have ever put forward some ridiculous version about the collapse of MH17.
Because these "versions" were put forward mainly by yellow Newspapers, with references to "unknown but authoritative sources".
 
anrec80
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:16 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Present your evidence to the investigators. We have seen a lot of BS from Russian military and government sources, so why would this be any different? They have zero credibility in this. But I am sure the Dutch prosecutors will do their research if the Russians would hand over everything, because they are required to do so by law.

Makes you wonder, though, why now? Does the Puting regime need a distraction for domestic use because of all the protest for raising the pension age? Ah well, I guess it is better than starting another war.


Well, Konashenkov doesn’t have a reputation for BS. Generally statements Russian defense dept. makes later get confirmed. So let’s see what they’ll hand over to the JIT. But if true, looks compelling. The story is certainly there.

The missile was made in 1986, according to the serial number has been delivered by rail to a division in Western Ukraine. Ukraine, on the contrary, has never provided any documentation on their inventory of BUKs.

All they could state (along with British) was “this is another wave of disinformation”. Not the strongest of positions, obviously.
 
anrec80
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:26 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

And of course before having proof that it was an Ukranian Buk, they also had proof it was an Ukranian SU-25.....

best regards
Thomas


Yes, SU-25 version was circulating in journalist environment based on “a source in ...”. This is just something media does. Though Russian Defense Dept. has never made a briefing on that one, and Russian authorities never issued any statements on it.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:26 pm

It took Russia 4 years to come up with this story? Sounds like a lot of time to forge documents to me.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
tommy1808
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:43 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Hmm, for some reason I thought that you would not be able to bring evidence that Russian officials have ever put forward some ridiculous version about the collapse of MH17.
Because these "versions" were put forward mainly by yellow Newspapers, with references to "unknown but authoritative sources".


I don´t know any yellow newespapers. And it doesn´t matter... your requirement for me is to proof that there was no SU-25, so you have to proof it wasn´t Putin.

And MH17 didn´t "collapse", it was shut down. By a Russian Buk Missile operated by Russian soldiers. Proven beyond doubt years ago.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
anrec80
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:45 pm

casinterest wrote:
It took Russia 4 years to come up with this story? Sounds like a lot of time to forge documents to me.


Not 4 years, about 4 months. JIT presented the missile with its serial number only in May 2018. A few months - it’s not an unreasonable timeframe to analyze and re-verify all the paper documentation on those missiles that Defense Dept. and the manufacturer has.

What was JIT doing for 4 years - ask them.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:49 pm

anrec80 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
It took Russia 4 years to come up with this story? Sounds like a lot of time to forge documents to me.


Not 4 years, about 4 months. JIT presented the missile with its serial number only in May 2018. A few months - it’s not an unreasonable timeframe to analyze and re-verify all the paper documentation on those missiles that Defense Dept. and the manufacturer has.

What was JIT doing for 4 years - ask them.



Lies,
They have known the serial since 2014, and have had at least since 2016 to really get their story straight.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... a-airlines
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
anrec80
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:58 pm

casinterest wrote:
Lies,
They have known the serial since 2014, and have had at least since 2016 to really get their story straight.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... a-airlines


Where in this article does it say anything about the numbers? The numbers were presented this May, and this is also when JIT sent request to Russians. They’ll probably provide the copies of documentation these coming days or weeks.
 
A3801000
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:21 pm

anrec80 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

And of course before having proof that it was an Ukranian Buk, they also had proof it was an Ukranian SU-25.....

best regards
Thomas


Yes, SU-25 version was circulating in journalist environment based on “a source in ...”. This is just something media does. Though Russian Defense Dept. has never made a briefing on that one, and Russian authorities never issued any statements on it.



“An altitude gain was detected for a Ukrainian combat jet, supposedly a Su-25, flying at a distance of 3-5 kilometers [1.8-3.1 miles] from the Boeing,” Lt. Gen. Andrei Kartapolov, the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, told a media conference in Moscow.

The presence of the Ukrainian combat jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated.


https://sputniknews.com/world/201407211 ... ter-Plane/
 
Scorpius
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:48 pm

A3801000 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

And of course before having proof that it was an Ukranian Buk, they also had proof it was an Ukranian SU-25.....

best regards
Thomas


Yes, SU-25 version was circulating in journalist environment based on “a source in ...”. This is just something media does. Though Russian Defense Dept. has never made a briefing on that one, and Russian authorities never issued any statements on it.



“An altitude gain was detected for a Ukrainian combat jet, supposedly a Su-25, flying at a distance of 3-5 kilometers [1.8-3.1 miles] from the Boeing,” Lt. Gen. Andrei Kartapolov, the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, told a media conference in Moscow.

The presence of the Ukrainian combat jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated.


https://sputniknews.com/world/201407211 ... ter-Plane/


What about the text? On the radar there is a certain object, which is presumably the su-25. This happens shortly before the mh17 crash.
So, what do you want to declare in this article as BS?
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:54 pm

anrec80 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Lies,
They have known the serial since 2014, and have had at least since 2016 to really get their story straight.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... a-airlines


Where in this article does it say anything about the numbers? The numbers were presented this May, and this is also when JIT sent request to Russians. They’ll probably provide the copies of documentation these coming days or weeks.


They are ignoring the photos , videos , tweets, calls, and other evidence that the launcher came in and returned to Russia.

Is Russia going to just claim an oil change? The Russians had to wait until Now to get the serial? They weren't concerned enough to ask for the serial 4 years ago, to understand how this tragedy could occur?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
A3801000
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:57 pm

I am really glad I don't have to work as a russian troll and come up with all this crap, trying to defend outrageous nonsense.

"“A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it’s distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km,” said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow on Monday.

“[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane,” he stated."


https://www.rt.com/news/174412-malaysia ... a-ukraine/
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:05 pm

The conclusion of this short thread and totally not represented group, the Russian military presented some complete bull, so they are not believed by the world.

In Dutch news, they have sent the material to the Netherlands, so we will see what their expert conclusions are.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
A3801000
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:56 pm

Looks like 18:00 was end of the shift today ;)
 
anrec80
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:14 pm

casinterest wrote:

They are ignoring the photos , videos , tweets, calls, and other evidence that the launcher came in and returned to Russia.


These photos, videos, tweets and calls are of unknown origin. The sources and even individuals on the phone had not been identified in most casss even. While these now are documents related to the particular missile, from USSR times, from the manufacturer.

Dutch party officially requested the information from Russians on this missile in May. Now they are coming back with this information and are forwarding it to JIT as requested. Everything is reasonable, and as it should be.

casinterest wrote:
Is Russia going to just claim an oil change? The Russians had to wait until Now to get the serial? They weren't concerned enough to ask for the serial 4 years ago, to understand how this tragedy could occur?


Russia is not on JIT, and does not have access to classified investigation information - in this case, if the whole engine container with the number of the missile was even there. JIT made public this number only in May, requested details on it from Russians and are getting those. What’s the issue here?

You should be concerned with Ukraine - do they even have an inventory of their BUK missiles? Or had their documentation “burned” in one of their infamous ammunition storage fires?
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:31 pm

anrec80 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

They are ignoring the photos , videos , tweets, calls, and other evidence that the launcher came in and returned to Russia.


These photos, videos, tweets and calls are of unknown origin. The sources and even individuals on the phone had not been identified in most casss even. While these now are documents related to the particular missile, from USSR times, from the manufacturer.

Dutch party officially requested the information from Russians on this missile in May. Now they are coming back with this information and are forwarding it to JIT as requested. Everything is reasonable, and as it should be.

casinterest wrote:
Is Russia going to just claim an oil change? The Russians had to wait until Now to get the serial? They weren't concerned enough to ask for the serial 4 years ago, to understand how this tragedy could occur?


Russia is not on JIT, and does not have access to classified investigation information - in this case, if the whole engine container with the number of the missile was even there. JIT made public this number only in May, requested details on it from Russians and are getting those. What’s the issue here?

You should be concerned with Ukraine - do they even have an inventory of their BUK missiles? Or had their documentation “burned” in one of their infamous ammunition storage fires?


So you discount all the tweets and videos that came out within weeks of the crash, but you advance the Russian lies about the origin of the missle 4 years later? I find that sad. Then you blame the Ukraine for causing the crash? Would you blame the Ukraine for the Russian supplied rebels in there too?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
anrec80
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:19 pm

casinterest wrote:
So you discount all the tweets and videos that came out within weeks of the crash, but you advance the Russian lies about the origin of the missle 4 years later? I find that sad.


On the same presentation, Major General Konashenkov demoed those videos and how they were done. Quite convincing really. Speaking of time-frame of origin finding - JIT made the numbers public in May 2018, and requested Russians for the info at that time. So we are talking about 4 months, not 4 years.

casinterest wrote:
Then you blame the Ukraine for causing the crash? Would you blame the Ukraine for the Russian supplied rebels in there too?


From the day of the accident I believed that this is Ukraine, and still do. What's being demoed now is real documentation, showing the entire lifecycle of the missile, since the date of manufacturing, and the final recipient. The recipient of it was in Ukraine in 1986, and its remnants were found on MH-17 crash site in Ukraine. Ukraine is responsible for that missile obviously, and had been since the day of its "independence". This is pretty much it. Beyond any reasonable doubt. Really - Ukraine or even pro-Ukrainian investigation will have very hard time beating this. Not that they can't ignore it simply.

Ukrainians made statements themselves that no air defense missiles got into the hands of rebels. Ukrainian military consists of bunch of monkeys who can't be given any air defenses or even more or less sophisticated weapons. They simply lost all training, knowledge and skills. I personally believe that this accident is the result of one of those monkeys pressing that big red button. Last but not least - this is the second civil airliner Ukrainian almighty air defenses shoot down (the first one was Tu-154 in 2001).
 
LMP737
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:48 pm

Scorpius wrote:
In 7 minutes, you managed to watch the briefing, which is 37 minutes? Or you simply hurry to declare the data provided by the Ministry of defence of Russia lie? And what right do you have after that to say something about impartiality?


You do have to admit they are good at lying.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
LMP737
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:54 pm

anrec80 wrote:

Ukrainians made statements themselves that no air defense missiles got into the hands of rebels. Ukrainian military consists of bunch of monkeys who can't be given any air defenses or even more or less sophisticated weapons. They simply lost all training, knowledge and skills. I personally believe that this accident is the result of one of those monkeys pressing that big red button. Last but not least - this is the second civil airliner Ukrainian almighty air defenses shoot down (the first one was Tu-154 in 2001).


Several contradictory statements in there. You'll have us believe that the Ukrainian military is too inept to operate these systems. Yet you'll also have us believe that they operated the system well enough to shot down MH17. Which is it?

If anyone is inept in this conflict it's the Russians. After all, such an incompetent military like Ukraine's should be easy pickings for the Russians.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
anrec80
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:20 am

LMP737 wrote:
Several contradictory statements in there. You'll have us believe that the Ukrainian military is too inept to operate these systems. Yet you'll also have us believe that they operated the system well enough to shot down MH17. Which is it?

If anyone is inept in all this it's the Russians. After all, such an incompetent military should be easy pickings for the Russians.


There is no contradiction. Operating an air defense system and pressing the button is not the same thing, obviously. Operating SAM site includes ability to identify and distinguish the target - its type, size, speed, altitude. Though one can start the engine and press the red button without doing any of that - in this case the missile will locate and find the target itself, and hit it. This unlucky target that time happened to be MH-17. But it’s my opinion. Ukraine is obviously responsible for missile - they need to answer what went on with it.

Speaking of Ukrainian and Russian military competence - it’s a topic for a separate thread. Nobody in Ukraine doubts that it will take Russians a few days to get to Polish border. Just look at quality of their operation in Syria. Also - Crimea was gone without a shingle shot fired.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:49 am

anrec80 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
So you discount all the tweets and videos that came out within weeks of the crash, but you advance the Russian lies about the origin of the missle 4 years later? I find that sad.


On the same presentation, Major General Konashenkov demoed those videos and how they were done. Quite convincing really. Speaking of time-frame of origin finding - JIT made the numbers public in May 2018, and requested Russians for the info at that time. So we are talking about 4 months, not 4 years.

casinterest wrote:
Then you blame the Ukraine for causing the crash? Would you blame the Ukraine for the Russian supplied rebels in there too?


From the day of the accident I believed that this is Ukraine, and still do. What's being demoed now is real documentation, showing the entire lifecycle of the missile, since the date of manufacturing, and the final recipient. The recipient of it was in Ukraine in 1986, and its remnants were found on MH-17 crash site in Ukraine. Ukraine is responsible for that missile obviously, and had been since the day of its "independence". This is pretty much it. Beyond any reasonable doubt. Really - Ukraine or even pro-Ukrainian investigation will have very hard time beating this. Not that they can't ignore it simply.

Ukrainians made statements themselves that no air defense missiles got into the hands of rebels. Ukrainian military consists of bunch of monkeys who can't be given any air defenses or even more or less sophisticated weapons. They simply lost all training, knowledge and skills. I personally believe that this accident is the result of one of those monkeys pressing that big red button. Last but not least - this is the second civil airliner Ukrainian almighty air defenses shoot down (the first one was Tu-154 in 2001).


So you have believed from the start that this was Ukraine? Even though the Russians are on Satellite coming across the border with the launcher?
Nothing will convince you. Enjoy your time with Vlad.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
anrec80
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:39 am

casinterest wrote:
So you have believed from the start that this was Ukraine? Even though the Russians are on Satellite coming across the border with the launcher?
Nothing will convince you. Enjoy your time with Vlad.


Then where are these images - of Russians coming across the border with launcher? A lot of things have been said to exist, but too few have been shown. And that doesn’t answer the main question - what does the missile Ukraine is responsible for doing on the MH-17 crash site?
 
anrec80
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:13 am

As the Ukrainian colonel of “radiotechnical” division (responsible for radars and airspace control) put it - “If this stays as is, we’ll F-k one more Malaysian Boeing”. Perhaps Ukrainian airspace control knew what went on?
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:20 am

anrec80 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
So you have believed from the start that this was Ukraine? Even though the Russians are on Satellite coming across the border with the launcher? v
Nothing will convince you. Enjoy your time with Vlad.


Then where are these images - of Russians coming across the border with launcher? A lot of things have been said to exist, but too few have been shown. And that doesn’t answer the main question - what does the missile Ukraine is responsible for doing on the MH-17 crash site?


Ukraine is responsible? You mean mother russia didn't claim it's weapons after the USSR disolved ? Did they leave nukes with Ukraine as well?

I think the satellite pictured are more than convincing. It's too bad you ignore them, much like the russian generals who have to please Putin.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/a ... d=11639794
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
anrec80
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:00 am

casinterest wrote:
Ukraine is responsible? You mean mother russia didn't claim it's weapons after the USSR disolved ? Did they leave nukes with Ukraine as well?


Exactly, my friend. Russia took out of Ukraine only nukes, nothing else (the only other thing they split was the Black Sea Fleet). Everything that remained became the property Ukrainian armed forces - that includes this particular missile, plus many more things - air defenses, tanks, airplanes. And hence - their responsibility, including the consequences of trade and use. So the ball goes to Ukrainian side - what was the missile, a property of Ukraine, doing right next to MH-17?

casinterest wrote:
I think the satellite pictured are more than convincing. It's too bad you ignore them, much like the russian generals who have to please Putin.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/a ... d=11639794


Again - where is the picture from? From what satellite? How did this Stratfor gain possession of it? All the article shows is 2 pictures next to each other, supposedly they want the reader to believe that the area of the image is Donetsk vicinity. But - what's there in the article or image to establish this? The resolution of the picture is rather low, and it does contain some pixels said to be BUK. How do we associate the satellite image to a particular area of the world's map? Even JIT didn't make much determination based on this one.

Overall, once you have detailed and documented trace of that very missile that was found on the crash site, you can't cover that up with low quality pics and videos of doubtful and unknown origin. Gotta find some stronger Russian proof.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 11984
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:57 am

anrec80 wrote:
LMP737 wrote:
Several contradictory statements in there. You'll have us believe that the Ukrainian military is too inept to operate these systems. Yet you'll also have us believe that they operated the system well enough to shot down MH17. Which is it?

If anyone is inept in all this it's the Russians. After all, such an incompetent military should be easy pickings for the Russians.


There is no contradiction. Operating an air defense system and pressing the button is not the same thing, obviously. Operating SAM site includes ability to identify and distinguish the target - its type, size, speed, altitude. Though one can start the engine and press the red button without doing any of that - in this case the missile will locate and find the target itself, and hit it. This unlucky target that time happened to be MH-17. But it’s my opinion. Ukraine is obviously responsible for missile - they need to answer what went on with it.

Speaking of Ukrainian and Russian military competence - it’s a topic for a separate thread. Nobody in Ukraine doubts that it will take Russians a few days to get to Polish border. Just look at quality of their operation in Syria. Also - Crimea was gone without a shingle shot fired.


So now it is the accidental shoot-down of the MH17, not on purpose. I am too lazy to look it up, but I know Scorpius did say that the MH17 was shot down by Ukraine to provoke an international incident, perhaps you did too. But then you have to answer the following, the MH17 was moving from west to east, so from Ukraine territory to Russia, not an obvious Russian plane, the rebels don't have planes. Second, they haven't shot down any planes, only the rebels did. So this fails the logic test. But we will see what the JIT finds in those documents provided and still needs doesn't line up with the other evidence.

Quality of operation in Syria? Not according to all the sources, bombings of hospitals and lots o civilian targets. Not really impressed. Crimea was indeed annexed without a shot with their covert tactics (Green men).
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 11984
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:04 am

anrec80 wrote:
Overall, once you have detailed and documented trace of that very missile that was found on the crash site, you can't cover that up with low quality pics and videos of doubtful and unknown origin. Gotta find some stronger Russian proof.


Oh, you are saying that the Russian military is incompetent of fabricating such documentation?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Jouhou
Posts: 2539
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:22 am

Lol, Russians take note. Look what Putin's disinformation campaign has done. We don't even look at what you put out before we decide it's a lie. The disinformation campaign is a long term failure. No one believes Russians anymore. Meanwhile China reaps the benefits of a weakening West with their influence and using an increasingly isolated Russia for cheap fuel.

Congrats.
情報
 
WIederling
Posts: 9458
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:40 am

casinterest wrote:
Ukraine is responsible? You mean mother russia didn't claim it's weapons after the USSR disolved ? Did they leave nukes with Ukraine as well?


All weapons initially stayed with the (re)new(ed) nations being created after the dissolution of the soviet union
where they had been deployed to.

Afaik the Russian Federation later started some deals to at least have control over the now foreign nuke arsenals.
see: http://factsanddetails.com/russia/Gover ... -5216.html
Murphy is an optimist
 
A3801000
Posts: 562
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:21 am

Totally reliable and believable russian log books are kept up to date by always the same person with always the same pen:

Image

Image
 
WIederling
Posts: 9458
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Re: The Russian defense Ministry has convened a briefing on MH17. Right now.

Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:10 am

scbriml wrote:
A reasonable person might ask, why has it taken Russia over four years to provide this "evidence"? :scratchchin:


4 month in my reckoning? Id details made public/handed to RF ...
Murphy is an optimist

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