It has been almost a year since the illegal referendum, and things seem to have changed in Barcelona. Quality of tourism is down. Halo effect seems to be vanishing.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/10 ... spain-news

Tourist crackdown backfires: Barcelona hotels in crisis as income plummets 20 PERCENT

Hotel groups are horrified that the turnover of hotels in the city fell by a huge 20 per cent during August, with the luxury establishments being the worse hit.

It seems that crime in Barcelona is getting out of control. La Vanguardia (one of the main newspapers in the region) reported today that violent crimes in the Old City increased +50% YoY

https://www.lavanguardia.com/local/barc ... robos.html

Los robos violentos aumentan más de un 50% en Ciutat Vella

Thousands of companies have left Catalonia, most of them moving to Madrid. This seems quite similar to the Montréal - Toronto saga. This article is from December, but this has continued to this date. The only major company returning to Barcelona is Agbar (Aguas de Barcelona) which had previously moved to Madrid.

https://www.businessinsider.com/firms-q ... 17-12?IR=T

More than 3,000 firms have quit Catalonia amid its political upheaval

MADRID — Caixabank, Gas Natural and Banco Sabadell made headlines during the Catalonian political crisis when they announced they would move their registered offices out of the northeastern region of Spain that voted for independence in October.

But the three firms were not alone in deciding to move. Far from it. A total of 3,023 companies moved their registered offices out of Catalonia between October 2nd to December 13th, according to the data gathered by the Spanish Association of Registrars.

So after a year, is already Barcelona the new Québec? The Montréal effect seems to be in full swing.

https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articl ... e-montreal

Catalonia and the Montreal Effect

Independence or not, capital may still take flight.

Will T1 in BCN become the new Mirabel Airport?

Well, didn’t they complain about their city being overrun by tourists? I guess they got what they asked for.

I can’t tell you how many of my friends (gay) seem to think of Barcelona as another Fire Island or Provincetown (I. E. gay resorts)

I’ve seen so many pics of Barcelona now that it’s like it’s become another trashy Daytona Beach type city.

johnboy wrote:

I can’t tell you how many of my friends (gay) seem to think of Barcelona as another Fire Island or Provincetown (I. E. gay resorts)

I’ve seen so many pics of Barcelona now that it’s like it’s become another trashy Daytona Beach type city.

IMO BCN caters to a very specific type of guy (Chelsea musclemary going to Circuit parties in BCN in summer).

Madrid's gay scene is definitely bigger on a regular basis and more diverse: http://pinkplaymags.com/2017/10/madrid- ... ity-world/

I guess you could say Barcelona is the Fort Lauderdale of Europe. But being a glorified suburb and beach, FLL's gay life will never compare with a true city like NYC or SFO.

Barcelona is crime ridden for decades now. In 2000 I was one of two people in the first three rows of a 737 on a flight to stansted who weren’t robbed.

Las ramblas is known as a crime hotspot. Drug taking is rife and the associated crime is out of control. Barcelona is Europe’s cocaine capital and heroine taking is increasing dramatically.

That's what it would happen when you try to force control onto an area. The area would become fragile.

BestWestern wrote:

Barcelona is crime ridden for decades now. In 2000 I was one of two people in the first three rows of a 737 on a flight to stansted who weren’t robbed.

Las ramblas is known as a crime hotspot. Drug taking is rife and the associated crime is out of control. Barcelona is Europe’s cocaine capital and heroine taking is increasing dramatically.

As for your remark about heroin, there is now in Barcelona what is called "narcotourism"

http://www.elmundo.es/papel/historias/2 ... b45ee.html

Since the opioid crisis that is ravaging the US is getting to Europe, heroin addicts from the continent are moving to Barcelona looking for cheaper heroin. Another market for those cheap Ryanair tickets. It is probably easier to take a 10 EUR Ryanair ticket from Germany or the UK to Barcelona, getting a few days of cheaper shots, sleep in the warmer streets and eventually return back to their home places.

SCQ83 wrote:

BestWestern wrote:

Barcelona is crime ridden for decades now. In 2000 I was one of two people in the first three rows of a 737 on a flight to stansted who weren’t robbed.

Las ramblas is known as a crime hotspot. Drug taking is rife and the associated crime is out of control. Barcelona is Europe’s cocaine capital and heroine taking is increasing dramatically.

As for your remark about heroin, there is now in Barcelona what is called "narcotourism"

http://www.elmundo.es/papel/historias/2 ... b45ee.html

Since the opioid crisis that is ravaging the US is getting to Europe, heroin addicts from the continent are moving to Barcelona looking for cheaper heroin. Another market for those cheap Ryanair tickets. It is probably easier to take a 10 EUR Ryanair ticket from Germany or the UK to Barcelona, getting a few days of cheaper shots, sleep in the warmer streets and eventually return back to their home places.

Maybe Spain should let go of the region to keep those people away from Spain, don't you think so?

Since Ryanair flights to BCN seem to have became Heroin shuttles, maybe the airport should open a Methadone Clinic.

SCQ83 wrote:

Since Ryanair flights to BCN seem to have became Heroin shuttles, maybe the airport should open a Methadone Clinic.

Maybe they can actually do that if not for the fact that they are currently part of Spain where both the drug law and the anti drug abuse policies are managed by the Spanish Central Government at Madrid

c933103 wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

Since Ryanair flights to BCN seem to have became Heroin shuttles, maybe the airport should open a Methadone Clinic.

Maybe they can actually do that if not for the fact that they are currently part of Spain where both the drug law and the anti drug abuse policies are managed by the Spanish Central Government at Madrid

Law enforcement though is up to the regional govt.

JJJ wrote:

Law enforcement though is up to the regional govt.

Law enforcement is only part of anti drug abuse policy.

c933103 wrote:

JJJ wrote:

Law enforcement though is up to the regional govt.

Law enforcement is only part of anti drug abuse policy.

So if nowhere else in Spain has that kind of drug problem.....

I'll let you finish the sentence.

JJJ wrote:

So if nowhere else in Spain has that kind of drug problem.....

I'll let you finish the sentence.

I would say it is more on a local (city hall) level.

For instance, the current major blocked Four Seasons and Hyatt (which would occupy iconic Torre Agbar) from establishing in the city:

http://www.expansion.com/catalunya/2017 ... b46b9.html

I mean, who in the right mind would like a Four Seasons (which btw is opening soon in Madrid) and a Grand Hyatt in their city? Those are capitalist, imperialist and oppressive symbols.

The same major that allows the city to be overrun with street vendors:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAt80nm7nbo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZUPctG5imU

The entrance of Plaza de Cataluña metro (main hub in the city centre):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weqH1kzf540

The local authorities in Barcelona seem to have an interesting agenda to transform their city in some unique in Europe.

JJJ wrote:

c933103 wrote:

JJJ wrote:

Law enforcement though is up to the regional govt.

Law enforcement is only part of anti drug abuse policy.

So if nowhere else in Spain has that kind of drug problem.....

I'll let you finish the sentence.

Didn't OP just accused the failed separation plan and the instability in the city after the failure for problems happening in the area?

SCQ83 wrote:

JJJ wrote:

So if nowhere else in Spain has that kind of drug problem.....

I'll let you finish the sentence.

I would say it is more on a local (city hall) level.

For instance, the current major blocked Four Seasons and Hyatt (which would occupy iconic Torre Agbar) from establishing in the city:

http://www.expansion.com/catalunya/2017 ... b46b9.html

I mean, who in the right mind would like a Four Seasons (which btw is opening soon in Madrid) and a Grand Hyatt in their city? Those are capitalist, imperialist and oppressive symbols.

The same major that allows the city to be overrun with street vendors:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAt80nm7nbo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZUPctG5imU

The entrance of Plaza de Cataluña metro (main hub in the city centre):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weqH1kzf540

The local authorities in Barcelona seem to have an interesting agenda to transform their city in some unique in Europe.

Maybe political councils in those area can spend more time in addressing what the area actually if they are allowed to operates independently unaffected by external powers, instead of wasting the time dealing with pressure and response and ideological alignment against those power.

So what I learnt here is that the Spanish government blocked Four Seasons and Grand Hyatt to open in Barcelona. What's next?

Well they want fewer tourists and after brexit when 'flights will end' and brits will 'have to pay to enter the EU' and 'will need visas' then I'm sure it'll fall further as the 20,000,000 brits who visit Spain will fall off a cliff (edge).

sevenair wrote:

Well they want fewer tourists and after brexit when 'flights will end' and brits will 'have to pay to enter the EU' and 'will need visas' then I'm sure it'll fall further as the 20,000,000 brits who visit Spain will fall off a cliff (edge).

In fact arrivals from the UK are down this year.

Locals in BCN have a very particular sense of humor:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7013850/s ... balconing/

SCQ83 wrote:

sevenair wrote:

Well they want fewer tourists and after brexit when 'flights will end' and brits will 'have to pay to enter the EU' and 'will need visas' then I'm sure it'll fall further as the 20,000,000 brits who visit Spain will fall off a cliff (edge).

In fact arrivals from the UK are down this year.

Locals in BCN have a very particular sense of humor:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7013850/s ... balconing/

A city which is that arrogant/unwelcoming to visitors deserves to decline. Let them enjoy their socialist paradise alone and continue dreaming of the independence they're never going to get...

KLDC10 wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

sevenair wrote:

Well they want fewer tourists and after brexit when 'flights will end' and brits will 'have to pay to enter the EU' and 'will need visas' then I'm sure it'll fall further as the 20,000,000 brits who visit Spain will fall off a cliff (edge).

In fact arrivals from the UK are down this year.

Locals in BCN have a very particular sense of humor:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7013850/s ... balconing/

A city which is that arrogant/unwelcoming to visitors deserves to decline. Let them enjoy their socialist paradise alone and continue dreaming of the independence they're never going to get...

I think that is about the funniest way to say "That shit is dangerous" i can think of..... now the whole anti-tourism movement may have their fringe people just as any other movement too, but the dislike of tourists is not based on Xeonphobia, but real practical considerations and concerns.Not being able to afford a place to live because prices go up double digits per year as Air bnbing a place is more lucrative than having regular tenants does that kind of thing, tourists, they have their assholes too, literally pissing on your city can have the same effect. Just ask the people of Amsterdam...... or people or Arlington, New York and Las Vegas, the three least tourist friendly places in the US.....

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 83021.html

best regards
Thomas

KLDC10 wrote:

A city which is that arrogant/unwelcoming to visitors deserves to decline. Let them enjoy their socialist paradise alone and continue dreaming of the independence they're never going to get...

It is more worrying that just being "arrogant". Btw the CUP party is one of the main parties in Barcelona and Catalonia, so supported by a large % of locals.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/bria ... -1.3182554

Brian Boyd: Tourists seen as terrorists by some in Barcelona

The youth wing of the CUP party is on a mission to drive out visitors

The children on the tour bus thought they were being attacked by Isis and started crying. Men clad in black masks held up the bus outside the Camp Nou football stadium in Barcelona, slashed its tyres and sprayed anti-tourist slogans on its windscreen.
Elsewhere in the city this August, the public bikes popular with tourists as a cheap and environmentally friendly way to get around the city have had their tyres slashed. Hotels in the city have been paint-bombed, and graffiti has appeared on walls – “All tourists are bastards” and “Why is it called tourist season when we can’t shoot them?”

tommy1808 wrote:

I think that is about the funniest way to say "That shit is dangerous" i can think of..... now the whole anti-tourism movement may have their fringe people just as any other movement too, but the dislike of tourists is not based on Xeonphobia, but real practical considerations and concerns.Not being able to afford a place to live because prices go up double digits per year as Air bnbing a place is more lucrative than having regular tenants does that kind of thing, tourists, they have their assholes too, literally pissing on your city can have the same effect. Just ask the people of Amsterdam...... or people or Arlington, New York and Las Vegas, the three least tourist friendly places in the US.....

I don't see this as funny. Locals in Amsterdam or New York do not attack tourists.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6350568/a ... iza-spain/

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6733294/a ... elona-bus/

tommy1808 wrote:

I think that is about the funniest way to say "That shit is dangerous" i can think of..... now the whole anti-tourism movement may have their fringe people just as any other movement too, but the dislike of tourists is not based on Xeonphobia, but real practical considerations and concerns.Not being able to afford a place to live because prices go up double digits per year as Air bnbing a place is more lucrative than having regular tenants does that kind of thing, tourists, they have their assholes too, literally pissing on your city can have the same effect. Just ask the people of Amsterdam...... or people or Arlington, New York and Las Vegas, the three least tourist friendly places in the US.....

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 83021.html

best regards
Thomas

There will always be a few bad apples among tourists, but the majority are well-behaved, respectful and contribute hugely to the economy of the area. It seems, however, from SQC83s opening post that crime and policing is a problem in general in Barcelona, not just because of tourism. Also, with businesses leaving (https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/09/the-com ... ainty.html), Barcelona can ill-afford to be scaring away tourists. Police them better, by all means, but don't drive them out.

New York isn't friendly to anyone - don't worry, it isn't just the tourists That said, get out to Brooklyn for an alternative experience to Manhattan - lots of up and coming neighborhoods, great restaurants etc.

SCQ83 wrote:

KLDC10 wrote:

A city which is that arrogant/unwelcoming to visitors deserves to decline. Let them enjoy their socialist paradise alone and continue dreaming of the independence they're never going to get...

It is more worrying that just being "arrogant". Btw the CUP party is one of the main parties in Barcelona and Catalonia, so supported by a large % of locals.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/bria ... -1.3182554

Brian Boyd: Tourists seen as terrorists by some in Barcelona

The youth wing of the CUP party is on a mission to drive out visitors

The children on the tour bus thought they were being attacked by Isis and started crying. Men clad in black masks held up the bus outside the Camp Nou football stadium in Barcelona, slashed its tyres and sprayed anti-tourist slogans on its windscreen.
Elsewhere in the city this August, the public bikes popular with tourists as a cheap and environmentally friendly way to get around the city have had their tyres slashed. Hotels in the city have been paint-bombed, and graffiti has appeared on walls – “All tourists are bastards” and “Why is it called tourist season when we can’t shoot them?”

I don't see this as funny. Locals in Amsterdam or New York do not attack tourists.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6350568/a ... iza-spain/

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6733294/a ... elona-bus/

Nor do I - it's disgusting behavior for a city which increasingly relies upon tourism to bring in revenue amid the ongoing political uncertainty in the region. I know that I for one will not be spending my tourist dollars in Barcelona during the foreseeable future. Maybe I'll give Brussels another chance instead, or anywhere which doesn't treat their tourists with hostility. The CUP should definitely take some responsibility for all this, but I doubt very much that that will happen. I mean, is anyone welcome in Catalonia these days? For sure not the Spanish themselves, who are seen as "foreigners". The whole situation has gotten ridiculously out of hand.

tommy1808 wrote:

KLDC10 wrote:

SCQ83 wrote:

In fact arrivals from the UK are down this year.

Locals in BCN have a very particular sense of humor:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7013850/s ... balconing/

A city which is that arrogant/unwelcoming to visitors deserves to decline. Let them enjoy their socialist paradise alone and continue dreaming of the independence they're never going to get...

I think that is about the funniest way to say "That shit is dangerous" i can think of..... now the whole anti-tourism movement may have their fringe people just as any other movement too, but the dislike of tourists is not based on Xeonphobia, but real practical considerations and concerns.Not being able to afford a place to live because prices go up double digits per year as Air bnbing a place is more lucrative than having regular tenants does that kind of thing, tourists, they have their assholes too, literally pissing on your city can have the same effect. Just ask the people of Amsterdam...... or people or Arlington, New York and Las Vegas, the three least tourist friendly places in the US.....

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 83021.html

best regards
Thomas

I’m not sure that “funniest way” was the best metric to adopt in order to convey that message. And it’s not even funny.

KLDC10 wrote:

There will always be a few bad apples among tourists, but the majority are well-behaved, respectful and contribute hugely to the economy of the area. It seems, however, from SQC83s opening post that crime and policing is a problem in general in Barcelona, not just because of tourism. Also, with businesses leaving (https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/09/the-com ... ainty.html), Barcelona can ill-afford to be scaring away tourists. Police them better, by all means, but don't drive them out..

You have to understand this on the logic (if there is any logic) of secessionists. Barcelona or Bilbao welcome foreigners from Africa and the Middle East with open arms. Naturally, migrants from Latin America (hint: they speak Spanish) are not particularly welcomed by the local / regional authorities. Their logic is that an Arabic or Wolof-speaking (with no knowledge of either Spanish or Catalan/Basque) from Syria or Senegal with no "Spanish influence" could be easily converted to their "religion".

Bilbao, which decades ago was infamous by its ETA bombings and is usually being named as one of the recent success stories in urban regeneration (the famous Guggenheim-effect) is now also in a spiral of urban crime, including murders, rapes or violent robberies in the city center:

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/01/24/in ... 02275.html

Concerns rise in Bilbao as city hit by wave of juvenile violence

Alarm bells are going off after the arrest of five teenagers for three murders in the Basque city

There was pain, concern, indignation, fear and a sense of unity on Tuesday at the parish church of Saint Justo and Pastor in Otxarkoaga, the neighborhood in the Basque city of Bilbao where a senior couple was brutally murdered by juvenile delinquents.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/08/23/in ... 74417.html

Video: Spanish seniors caught on camera fighting off violent attacker

The valiant women from the Basque Country stood up to the aggressive robber in a bid to stop him from escaping

I live close to the City of Cambridge population 125,000, annual visitors 5.3million, thats a ratio far more excessive than Barcelona, admittedly though most of our visitors are for a shorter duration. We have a very small number of loudmouths who want the "full up" signs to be erected and visitors discouraged, the vast majority however realise that the vibrancy of our city centre is entirely down to tourism, without it we would lose 50% of our shops and at least 75% of the cafes and restaurants. We have had a few problems with tourists being harassed to go on tours etc, but the council has now clamped down on it.
From the youtube links it appears that the council and police in Barcelona have lost the plot in regard to street traders flogging counterfeit goods, the police also seem unable to make any impact of the bag snatchers, but that's a problem all over Spain
My wife had her bag snatched in Barcelona 16 years ago, the police station was full of people reporting similar incidents, move on 15 years and she had her bag snatched again in Bilbao, it just seems like a national sport.

KLDC10 wrote:

There will always be a few bad apples among tourists, but the majority are well-behaved, respectful and contribute hugely to the economy of the area

Yup, that is usually the case. However, no matter how friendly they are, if you can´t afford your rent because of them that doesn´t help all too much. Espechially when that starts driving wages up making the city less attractive for other businesses......

New York isn't friendly to anyone - don't worry, it isn't just the tourists That said, get out to Brooklyn for an alternative experience to Manhattan - lots of up and coming neighborhoods, great restaurants etc.

I can not recall ever meeting an unfriendly local when traveling. That includes Manhattan.....

best regards
Thomas

I have only been to Montreal a couple of times but never had any bad experiences with the locals. Have never been to Barcelona, but almost everyone I know that has had some negative experience with theft (at least attempted), including having a knife thrust against their neck, so am not really in a rush to try it out.

Pyrex wrote:

I have only been to Montreal a couple of times but never had any bad experiences with the locals. Have never been to Barcelona, but almost everyone I know that has had some negative experience with theft (at least attempted), including having a knife thrust against their neck, so am not really in a rush to try it out.

I was referring to this which is already happening.

https://www.theeconomyjournal.eu/texto- ... e-movement

When the Quebecois independence party won the elections in the Canadian territory of Quebec in 1976, there were people who went to take their savings out of the bank to deposit them elsewhere. Then began a campaign for the independence of the region that led to the departure of leading companies and the exodus of hundreds of thousands of people.

"The entire financial sector moved to Toronto," recalls the university's professor Reuven Brenner, who participated in the commission to discuss what would happen to the debt in the event that Quebec became independent.

Historically, Montreal was the financial centre of Canada, but in the 60s and 70s most of the banks moved to Toronto, the capital of the province of Ontario, and never returned, according to BBC World from the Institut du Québec. Even the Bank of Montreal itself took the base of its operations away from the city that gave it its name.

But maybe you are right, the title is wrong. "Is Barcelona the new Caracas?" might be more accurate

Will the E-Coli mojito become the new staple drink?

https://nypost.com/2018/09/18/vendors-i ... -tourists/

Vendors in Barcelona are selling E.coli mojitos to tourists

I talked one week ago about Barcelona and Caracas..

https://www.libremercado.com/2018-10-03 ... 276625884/

Barcelona, as seen by tourists: "This is resembling Caracas"

Argentinian and Venezuelan tourists compare the environment in Barcelona with the violence and insecurity of their cities.

I'm not Spanish but I spent two years living in Madrid and countless summers in my families' houses in Andalusia and Tenerife and I have to say that Madrid is my favourite city in Europe. However this portrayal of Barcelona as some lawless city is completely false. It's true that you have to be careful with your belongings in certain areas such as Sants or La Rambla but to say that it is worse than any other city is completely false. I've been mugged in Paris, my phone was stolen in Madrid etc... Spanish people love to insult Barcelona and Catalunya, if you hate them so much, why don't you give them independence? Are you worried that you'll lose Spain's second most important economic region? Saludos !

SCQ83 wrote:

KLDC10 wrote:

A city which is that arrogant/unwelcoming to visitors deserves to decline. Let them enjoy their socialist paradise alone and continue dreaming of the independence they're never going to get...

It is more worrying that just being "arrogant". Btw the CUP party is one of the main parties in Barcelona and Catalonia, so supported by a large % of locals.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/bria ... -1.3182554

Brian Boyd: Tourists seen as terrorists by some in Barcelona

The youth wing of the CUP party is on a mission to drive out visitors

The children on the tour bus thought they were being attacked by Isis and started crying. Men clad in black masks held up the bus outside the Camp Nou football stadium in Barcelona, slashed its tyres and sprayed anti-tourist slogans on its windscreen.
Elsewhere in the city this August, the public bikes popular with tourists as a cheap and environmentally friendly way to get around the city have had their tyres slashed. Hotels in the city have been paint-bombed, and graffiti has appeared on walls – “All tourists are bastards” and “Why is it called tourist season when we can’t shoot them?”

tommy1808 wrote:

I think that is about the funniest way to say "That shit is dangerous" i can think of..... now the whole anti-tourism movement may have their fringe people just as any other movement too, but the dislike of tourists is not based on Xeonphobia, but real practical considerations and concerns.Not being able to afford a place to live because prices go up double digits per year as Air bnbing a place is more lucrative than having regular tenants does that kind of thing, tourists, they have their assholes too, literally pissing on your city can have the same effect. Just ask the people of Amsterdam...... or people or Arlington, New York and Las Vegas, the three least tourist friendly places in the US.....

I don't see this as funny. Locals in Amsterdam or New York do not attack tourists.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6350568/a ... iza-spain/

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6733294/a ... elona-bus/

It would be wise for Spain to split itself away from those bastards of the situation is as bad as what you are describing

I was in Barcelona in 1985 and in Montreal several times in the 1980's and into the early 1990 (I only live 400 some miles from Montreal).

In a few years the Catalans will face reality and have to find some kind of way be a part of Spain, much like the Quebecois did with Canada, with both making important compromises like with language and national to provincial government sharing. But unlike with Quebec and Canada, I see the Catalans as far more violently activist and as some comments note, turning off tourism and investment and having few resources to work in the long term.

Montreal did recover by the 1980's for tourism. Investments by the province took advantage of resources like a well educated workforce, cheap hydroelectric power, trade agreements between the USA and Canada, led to the the province to a reasonably stable place.

For the Catalan region, having a lot of unemployed persons, especially young persons, too little affordable housing, jobs gone and unlikely ever to come back, high public crime rates, serious drug issues and likely serious corruption will make it's future very different from what Quebec was able to do.

c933103 wrote:

It would be wise for Spain to split itself away from those bastards of the situation is as bad as what you are describing

Unfortunately only a (loud) minority of Spaniards living in Catalonia are for independence.

SCQ83 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

It would be wise for Spain to split itself away from those bastards of the situation is as bad as what you are describing

Unfortunately only a (loud) minority of Spaniards living in Catalonia are for independence.

Spain should make the honorary decision to discard those scum from its territory if that's what they are to your eyes

SCQ83 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

It would be wise for Spain to split itself away from those bastards of the situation is as bad as what you are describing

Unfortunately only a (loud) minority of Spaniards living in Catalonia are for independence.

I fail to see the point of this thread.
Barcelona is an exceptionally beautifull city, with a lot of problems. The city has a very specific way of life, rather anarchistic. This gives one a sense of freedom, but this freedom comes at a price. I think this is in the DNA of the city, it's part of what makes it attractive and it's part of the problems this city faces.
I really see no point in apparently joyfully bashing this city.

ltbewr wrote:

But unlike with Quebec and Canada, I see the Catalans as far more violently activist

Seriously, wtf are you talking about??? If anyone behaved violently and brutally it was the Spanish central government, its police to be specific: https://youtu.be/rfSpDjO1OBA All that with tacit blessing of spineless EU apparatchiks like Juncker, Timmermans, Avramopoulos and others.

The wife and I stopped in Barcelona a few years back and really enjoyed spending a few hours walking around. The stop was half way through a cruise and we did have a couple thousand tourists invade, leaving a bit of their cash and a bit more credit card purchases.

I am blissfully ignorant of the changes since we were there but would be very fearful if both companies and tourists avoided the city. Cruise lines abandoning their stop there will impact the residents of the city, especially the small shop owners and core workers who earn a living serving motorists. Why shouldn't they move to Madrid if they could no longer make a decent living in BCN?

Sadly when the income from companies and the tourist fall far enough that people actually want them back it might be very have to convince them to come back.

SCQ83

"Is Barcelona the new Caracas?" might be more accurate

No way! when you have food, medicine, and service shortages and a rampant crime that forces you to be home by 6pm, and a total of around 200 and up deaths every weekend, then you could say that. (I originally hail from that hellhole)

I´ve been living for 10 years in Barcelona, only been robbed once, but other than that, I go about my own business at any time and feel safe, one time I even left my car window down all night and not a single item was stolen (but that was maybe a real lucky shot)

Like you I dislike the whole independence movement which I think has a backward, xenophobic and excluding tone (Catalans are a superior race, Spaniards are dumb beasts, as said by the Catalan Trump Mr Torra, etc, etc) which is based on lies and manipulation, and also despise the local Barcelona goverment led by the chameleonic Mrs Colau who is more interested in changing street names and plazas rather than tackling the illegal street vendors, muggings and other issues of more relevance to the population.

DNDTUF

Spanish people love to insult Barcelona and Catalunya, if you hate them so much, why don't you give them independence? Are you worried that you'll lose Spain's second most important economic region? Saludos !

Because Catalunya has always been part of Spain, Spaniards have a resentment towards separatists, not towards the entire region, and Independence is an issue that ALL Spaniards should have a voice, not just 4 loud brainwashed rednecks.

L410Turbolet wrote:

ltbewr wrote:

But unlike with Quebec and Canada, I see the Catalans as far more violently activist

Seriously, wtf are you talking about??? If anyone behaved violently and brutally it was the Spanish central government, its police to be specific: https://youtu.be/rfSpDjO1OBA All that with tacit blessing of spineless EU apparatchiks like Juncker, Timmermans, Avramopoulos and others.

And what was Spain suppose to do, when a Regional Government blatantly violating the constitution gave itself powers to call for an illegal referendum when they can´t? manipulated the local authorities (Mossos d´esquadra to not do anything, and told people it was fine to take over local schools and have sleepovers just so that Authorities couldn´t confiscate the ballots and boxes?

Ballots and boxes obviously paid with public funds....

What do you think the US would´ve done should the Texas Independent movement or whatever is called one day does the same? or anywhere else for the matter, when some local government one day decides to break the rules and out of the blue create a new republic?

MIAspotter.

MIAspotter wrote:

And what was Spain suppose to do

I was responding to accusation of allegedly "violent" Catalunyans when the only one acting violently was the Spanish government. Scenes of raging police you'd respect to see in Moscow or Minsk.

MIAspotter wrote:

Spanish people love to insult Barcelona and Catalunya, if you hate them so much, why don't you give them independence? Are you worried that you'll lose Spain's second most important economic region? Saludos !

Because Catalunya has always been part of Spain, Spaniards have a resentment towards separatists, not towards the entire region, and Independence is an issue that ALL Spaniards should have a voice, not just 4 loud brainwashed rednecks.

That doesn't really make sense. Many people in most countries oppose separation of territories from their country, but it still occurred many tines in the history because those lands are inhibited by those who actually live there instead of those that who only claims they are part of them. Like hypothetically you can also say Iraq people think Kuwait is part of Iraq and thus have a resentment towards separatists so all Iraqi people should have a voice.

L410Turbolet wrote:

MIAspotter wrote:

And what was Spain suppose to do

I was responding to accusation of allegedly "violent" Catalunyans when the only one acting violently was the Spanish government. Scenes of raging police you'd respect to see in Moscow or Minsk.

Again, what was Spain supposed to do? they knew well beforehand the referendum was illegal, the court of justice and the central government warned them of the consequences, and yet they pushed forward, deep down they wanted confrontation, they locked themselves on the schools, used children and elderly people, they were looking for confrontation so that it would show on worldwide TV and newspaper and make Spain look like a repressive state, that´s the same ole game the separatists have been playing for years, the victimism.game.

Do you think a dialogue would´ve worked? ¨Hey Catalonia, sorry, but that referendum is illegal, you played dirty by breaking the rules and bypassing the laws, so please, pack up and go quietly, maybe next time, is not cool to try and break a sovereign country just like that¨

And as for violent Catalans, do you know what happenned on the 20th of September on the premises of one of the Catalan branches of government, when the Civil Guard entered to seize documents related to the illegal referendum?

A horde of people encouraged by leaders of Catalan Nationalist Organizations surrounded the premises destroying police vehicles and basically keeping people and Civil Guard offficers hostage for hours until Mossos D´Esquadra came in and restored some sort of order.

So as you can see, both sides are to blame, and none are saints.

MIAspotter.

MIAspotter wrote:

L410Turbolet wrote:

MIAspotter wrote:

And what was Spain suppose to do

I was responding to accusation of allegedly "violent" Catalunyans when the only one acting violently was the Spanish government. Scenes of raging police you'd respect to see in Moscow or Minsk.

Again, what was Spain supposed to do? they knew well beforehand the referendum was illegal, the court of justice and the central government warned them of the consequences, and yet they pushed forward, deep down they wanted confrontation, they locked themselves on the schools, used children and elderly people, they were looking for confrontation so that it would show on worldwide TV and newspaper and make Spain look like a repressive state, that´s the same ole game the separatists have been playing for years, the victimism.game.

Do you think a dialogue would´ve worked? ¨Hey Catalonia, sorry, but that referendum is illegal, you played dirty by breaking the rules and bypassing the laws, so please, pack up and go quietly, maybe next time, is not cool to try and break a sovereign country just like that¨

And as for violent Catalans, do you know what happenned on the 20th of September on the premises of one of the Catalan branches of government, when the Civil Guard entered to seize documents related to the illegal referendum?

A horde of people encouraged by leaders of Catalan Nationalist Organizations surrounded the premises destroying police vehicles and basically keeping people and Civil Guard offficers hostage for hours until Mossos D´Esquadra came in and restored some sort of order.

So as you can see, both sides are to blame, and none are saints.

MIAspotter.

Should national constitution be above international and individual rights?

c933103 wrote:

MIAspotter wrote:

L410Turbolet wrote:

I was responding to accusation of allegedly "violent" Catalunyans when the only one acting violently was the Spanish government. Scenes of raging police you'd respect to see in Moscow or Minsk.

Again, what was Spain supposed to do? they knew well beforehand the referendum was illegal, the court of justice and the central government warned them of the consequences, and yet they pushed forward, deep down they wanted confrontation, they locked themselves on the schools, used children and elderly people, they were looking for confrontation so that it would show on worldwide TV and newspaper and make Spain look like a repressive state, that´s the same ole game the separatists have been playing for years, the victimism.game.

Do you think a dialogue would´ve worked? ¨Hey Catalonia, sorry, but that referendum is illegal, you played dirty by breaking the rules and bypassing the laws, so please, pack up and go quietly, maybe next time, is not cool to try and break a sovereign country just like that¨

And as for violent Catalans, do you know what happenned on the 20th of September on the premises of one of the Catalan branches of government, when the Civil Guard entered to seize documents related to the illegal referendum?

A horde of people encouraged by leaders of Catalan Nationalist Organizations surrounded the premises destroying police vehicles and basically keeping people and Civil Guard offficers hostage for hours until Mossos D´Esquadra came in and restored some sort of order.

So as you can see, both sides are to blame, and none are saints.

MIAspotter.

Should national constitution be above international and individual rights?

The constitution is the bill of rights and rules applicable to every citizen of a given nation, when a local parliament tries to bypass it in order to give itself powers it doesn´t have, all in the name of ¨the people´ to try and break away from a sovereign nation it´s called treason and the law must be applied.

The constitution in Spain could be changed if the congress agrees and the right steps are taken which involves a national referendum (in which Catalonia is welcomed to have a say) until then, they must play by the rules like everybody else, simple as that.

MIAspotter.

MIAspotter wrote:

c933103 wrote:

MIAspotter wrote:

Again, what was Spain supposed to do? they knew well beforehand the referendum was illegal, the court of justice and the central government warned them of the consequences, and yet they pushed forward, deep down they wanted confrontation, they locked themselves on the schools, used children and elderly people, they were looking for confrontation so that it would show on worldwide TV and newspaper and make Spain look like a repressive state, that´s the same ole game the separatists have been playing for years, the victimism.game.

Do you think a dialogue would´ve worked? ¨Hey Catalonia, sorry, but that referendum is illegal, you played dirty by breaking the rules and bypassing the laws, so please, pack up and go quietly, maybe next time, is not cool to try and break a sovereign country just like that¨

And as for violent Catalans, do you know what happenned on the 20th of September on the premises of one of the Catalan branches of government, when the Civil Guard entered to seize documents related to the illegal referendum?

A horde of people encouraged by leaders of Catalan Nationalist Organizations surrounded the premises destroying police vehicles and basically keeping people and Civil Guard offficers hostage for hours until Mossos D´Esquadra came in and restored some sort of order.

So as you can see, both sides are to blame, and none are saints.

MIAspotter.

Should national constitution be above international and individual rights?

The constitution is the bill of rights and rules applicable to every citizen of a given nation, when a local parliament tries to bypass it in order to give itself powers it doesn´t have, all in the name of ¨the people´ to try and break away from a sovereign nation it´s called treason and the law must be applied.

The constitution in Spain could be changed if the congress agrees and the right steps are taken which involves a national referendum (in which Catalonia is welcomed to have a say) until then, they must play by the rules like everybody else, simple as that.

MIAspotter.

Hypothetically, If a constitution say it is legal to murder a person of particular ethnicity, should such constitution be respected?

c933103 wrote:

MIAspotter wrote:

c933103 wrote:

Should national constitution be above international and individual rights?

The constitution is the bill of rights and rules applicable to every citizen of a given nation, when a local parliament tries to bypass it in order to give itself powers it doesn´t have, all in the name of ¨the people´ to try and break away from a sovereign nation it´s called treason and the law must be applied.

The constitution in Spain could be changed if the congress agrees and the right steps are taken which involves a national referendum (in which Catalonia is welcomed to have a say) until then, they must play by the rules like everybody else, simple as that.

MIAspotter.

Hypothetically, If a constitution say it is legal to murder a person of particular ethnicity, should such constitution be respected?

Fortunately, no constitution that I know of, allows for murdering people of a particular ethnicity (Except maybe the one for North Korea, but I haven´t read it, nor I intend to) Constitutions like I said, is just a bill of rules and rights to be followed and respected by the people and authorities of a given country.

MIaspotter.

c933103 wrote:

MIAspotter wrote:

c933103 wrote:

Should national constitution be above international and individual rights?

The constitution is the bill of rights and rules applicable to every citizen of a given nation, when a local parliament tries to bypass it in order to give itself powers it doesn´t have, all in the name of ¨the people´ to try and break away from a sovereign nation it´s called treason and the law must be applied.

The constitution in Spain could be changed if the congress agrees and the right steps are taken which involves a national referendum (in which Catalonia is welcomed to have a say) until then, they must play by the rules like everybody else, simple as that.

MIAspotter.

Hypothetically, If a constitution say it is legal to murder a person of particular ethnicity, should such constitution be respected?

Any real-world examples you're thinking?

Because in the real world Spain ranks as a full democracy, higher than France, Italy or the US.

https://infographics.economist.com/2018/DemocracyIndex/

JJJ wrote:

c933103 wrote:

MIAspotter wrote:

The constitution is the bill of rights and rules applicable to every citizen of a given nation, when a local parliament tries to bypass it in order to give itself powers it doesn´t have, all in the name of ¨the people´ to try and break away from a sovereign nation it´s called treason and the law must be applied.

The constitution in Spain could be changed if the congress agrees and the right steps are taken which involves a national referendum (in which Catalonia is welcomed to have a say) until then, they must play by the rules like everybody else, simple as that.

MIAspotter.

Hypothetically, If a constitution say it is legal to murder a person of particular ethnicity, should such constitution be respected?

Any real-world examples you're thinking?

Because in the real world Spain ranks as a full democracy, higher than France, Italy or the US.

https://infographics.economist.com/2018/DemocracyIndex/

I don't think the overall level of democracy of anywhere can be used to justify the rightness of individual policies. Like, do you think the America is doing the right thing at Guantanamo simply because they are a democracy?

MIAspotter wrote:

c933103 wrote:

MIAspotter wrote:

The constitution is the bill of rights and rules applicable to every citizen of a given nation, when a local parliament tries to bypass it in order to give itself powers it doesn´t have, all in the name of ¨the people´ to try and break away from a sovereign nation it´s called treason and the law must be applied.

The constitution in Spain could be changed if the congress agrees and the right steps are taken which involves a national referendum (in which Catalonia is welcomed to have a say) until then, they must play by the rules like everybody else, simple as that.

MIAspotter.

Hypothetically, If a constitution say it is legal to murder a person of particular ethnicity, should such constitution be respected?

Fortunately, no constitution that I know of, allows for murdering people of a particular ethnicity (Except maybe the one for North Korea, but I haven´t read it, nor I intend to) Constitutions like I said, is just a bill of rules and rights to be followed and respected by the people and authorities of a given country.

MIaspotter.

Fortunately it is just an example to illustrate constitution of any particular countries isn't always right and should also be combined with other factors like right and desire and need of each particular individual and group of people to see whether each aspects of those laws are reasonable or not.

c933103 wrote:

JJJ wrote:

c933103 wrote:

Hypothetically, If a constitution say it is legal to murder a person of particular ethnicity, should such constitution be respected?

Any real-world examples you're thinking?

Because in the real world Spain ranks as a full democracy, higher than France, Italy or the US.

https://infographics.economist.com/2018/DemocracyIndex/

I don't think the overall level of democracy of anywhere can be used to justify the rightness of individual policies. Like, do you think the America is doing the right thing at Guantanamo simply because they are a democracy?

....and many voices rightfully call for their closure. Including the former president.

It's not a matter of my country right or wrong, it's a matter of rules, and rules can and do change. No reason to stomp due process just because you feel entitled to something.

Part of Catalans (not a majority, not yet at least) feel they're entitled to the UN self-determination right, they feel they are a nation. But nations only matter so far. The modern world is built on states. The EU is a union of member states, not nations, UN, NATO, etc. have member states, and states have laws which citizens of a state must follow.

It's OK not to like them, that's why there are avenues to change that.

JJJ wrote:

c933103 wrote:

JJJ wrote:

Any real-world examples you're thinking?

Because in the real world Spain ranks as a full democracy, higher than France, Italy or the US.

https://infographics.economist.com/2018/DemocracyIndex/

I don't think the overall level of democracy of anywhere can be used to justify the rightness of individual policies. Like, do you think the America is doing the right thing at Guantanamo simply because they are a democracy?

....and many voices rightfully call for their closure. Including the former president.

It's not a matter of my country right or wrong, it's a matter of rules, and rules can and do change. No reason to stomp due process just because you feel entitled to something.

Part of Catalans (not a majority, not yet at least) feel they're entitled to the UN self-determination right, they feel they are a nation. But nations only matter so far. The modern world is built on states. The EU is a union of member states, not nations, UN, NATO, etc. have member states, and states have laws which citizens of a state must follow.

It's OK not to like them, that's why there are avenues to change that.

... Again, "what most people think" something should work someway doesn't help especially with respect to minorities or stuffs like that. Like remember there are numerous genocidal regimes around the world that are democratically elected. And how many colonies who obtained independence in the last century do you think followed laws and procedures in their respective parent nations when achieving independence?