believeinflight
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Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:52 pm

In 1987, Reagan was like "Tear down the Berlin Wall", while Trump today is like "Build the wall." - I don't have a good feeling about this, Trump's wall is meant to cause division and to me it's like putting up the Berlin Wall.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:32 pm

Wrong. It is in fact opposite. The Berlin Wall was to prevent outflow, the Trump Wall is to limit inflow.

Every Mexican can visit the US until his tourist visa expires. The wall is made to limit illegal immigration.

If there had been any similarity, then the wall would have been made by the Mexicans, not by the USA, and it would have surrounded all Mexico to prevent any Mexican from leaving his country. (Except maybe sport teams which in East Germany were followed by "Aufpasser" (Stasi servants) who kept a constant eye on you and locked your hotel room from outside at night).

Reagan did say "tear down this wall". But the meaning was in fact "remove the Iron Curtain". The Berlin Wall was just 1% on the Iron Curtain.
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ltbewr
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:36 am

The 'Berlin Wall' was best know for that section that divided the center of the city and surrounding West Berlin. There were walls, ditches, multiple fence lines with a very few and tightly regulated openings for trains and road vehicles, with well armed guards, in some places automatic weapons if persons trespassed in the no-mans-land and armed guards with orders to shoot to kill. It was to limit access to the West and keep people they needed, especially those with brains and skills in the East. It also allowed the Allied powers of WWII to prevent a reunified Germany and did so for over 40 years.

As to Mexico, there are walls in urban areas, but much of the border is barely a fence line and just maybe a few signs of where the border is. The border doen't have with a few exceptions military forces with orders to shoot to kill, but police. And if build a wall, then more tunnels, or persons using boats, higher fees to those trying to enter the USA, just like people did with the Berlin Wall and the borders between the then East and West Germany.
 
seb146
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:04 am

Some people believe the greatest (only?) threat to the security of the United States is Mexicans. Recall that, those who have committed the worst terror attack on United States soil came from Saudi Arabia on visas. Next greatest threat, according to some sources, are home grown. There are people who enter the United States illegally. That is a problem. No one denies that. But, we need to be honest as a nation and really look at cold, hard, boring facts before expanding the debt even further.
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tommy1808
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:37 am

prebennorholm wrote:
Every Mexican can visit the US until his tourist visa expires. The wall is made to limit illegal immigration.


Isn´t most illegal immigration into the United States from legal entry and overstaying the Visa?

best regards
Thomas
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Airstud
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:30 am

tommy1808 wrote:
prebennorholm wrote:
Every Mexican can visit the US until his tourist visa expires. The wall is made to limit illegal immigration.


Isn´t most illegal immigration into the United States from legal entry and overstaying the Visa?

best regards
Thomas


Yes it is, and illegal border crossings are done by tunnel or human smuggling in unventilated freight trucks.

These are some of the myriad reasons why the wall is a stupid idea.
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Dutchy
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:03 am

Didn't want to open yet another Trump tread, so this is slightly off topic, but yet again precise on target.

Trump loves to build walls and likes to get involved everywhere so you could wait for it: he advises Europe to solve the migrant crisis by putting a wall in the Sahara.

The American president came to the White House in June with his unsolicited advice during a state visit by the Spanish royal couple Felipe and Letizia. There the Spanish Foreign Minister Josep Borrell attended. He now tells newspaper El Pais about the remarkable tip.

How that should be done in practice, the president has no idea. That the wall should be built on foreign territory, for example, because Spain has only two small enclaves in North Africa, he dismissed as a detail.

For information: a wall through the Sahara would cross eleven countries: Algeria, Chad, Egypt, Eritrea, Libya, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Niger, Sudan and Tunisia. When Spanish diplomats explained that the wall should be 4,800 kilometers long, Trump responded: "The Sahara border can not be bigger than our border with Mexico."

That is what he is. The wall that Trump is still planning has a potential length of 3.128 kilometers.


So details for the president of the US:

- sovereignty
- scope of a project

This president keeps on given. It is quite shocking a little he knows and realizing what he is actually are saying and the consequences of such projects.

In Dutch: Article
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falstaff
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:52 pm

seb146 wrote:
Some people believe the greatest (only?) threat to the security of the United States is Mexicans.


Just because a person comes across the Mexican border doesn't mean the person is a Mexican national. There was an article in the Detroit Free Press a couple months ago about a Romanian man in the country illegally. Due to criminal convictions in Romania he couldn't enter the US, however he came into Brazil and worked his way to the US from Mexico.

There was another story in the Detroit Free Press six months ago or so, that showed 100s of Haitians being detained, by Mexican authorities, near Tijuana. The article talked about how they came from Brazil and worked their way through Mexico to the US border. The Detroit Free Press is hardly a conservative publication so I doubt they would be overstating the situation, for political purposes. I was actually surprised they reported on it all.

tommy1808 wrote:
Isn´t most illegal immigration into the United States from legal entry and overstaying the Visa?


I don't know if it still is, but it has been in the past.

prebennorholm wrote:
Wrong. It is in fact opposite. The Berlin Wall was to prevent outflow, the Trump Wall is to limit inflow.


A good buddy of mine, in Halle, Germany, was an East German policeman (Volkspolizei). I once asked him what was the penalty for illegally entering the German Democratic Republic? He smiled and replied "I don't know... Why would anyone want to sneak in?" He personally couldn't remember any cases of people coming in the DDR illegally. He said he was sure it happened, but wasn't involved in anything like that. He was a DDR DVP for five years before reunification. Today he is a senior police official in Saxony-Anhalt.
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trpmb6
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:07 pm

falstaff wrote:

A good buddy of mine, in Halle, Germany, was an East German policeman (Volkspolizei). I once asked him what was the penalty for illegally entering the German Democratic Republic? He smiled and replied "I don't know... Why would anyone want to sneak in?" He personally couldn't remember any cases of people coming in the DDR illegally. He said he was sure it happened, but wasn't involved in anything like that.


I've heard similar stories before (best man in my wedding has german parents).

Also heard that the "guns" (metaphorically I believe) were pointed inwards towards east germany, and not outwards towards west germany. (or in this case east and west berlin).
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:17 pm

Agreed with previous posters. I can't think of more opposite examples.
 
seb146
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:43 pm

falstaff wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Some people believe the greatest (only?) threat to the security of the United States is Mexicans.


Just because a person comes across the Mexican border doesn't mean the person is a Mexican national. There was an article in the Detroit Free Press a couple months ago about a Romanian man in the country illegally. Due to criminal convictions in Romania he couldn't enter the US, however he came into Brazil and worked his way to the US from Mexico.

There was another story in the Detroit Free Press six months ago or so, that showed 100s of Haitians being detained, by Mexican authorities, near Tijuana. The article talked about how they came from Brazil and worked their way through Mexico to the US border. The Detroit Free Press is hardly a conservative publication so I doubt they would be overstating the situation, for political purposes. I was actually surprised they reported on it all.


It does not surprise me that a not conservative publication would try to educate people.

I used the qualifier "some" for a reason. I know that some who cross the southern border illegally come from Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras. But, to some, they speak Spanish and Spanish=Mexican=illegal. TO SOME. That is why small words and quick chants are so appealing TO SOME. You know: "Build The Wall" and such.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... ssberg-ice
https://people.com/chica/man-gets-attac ... t-airport/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/bus ... ttan-deli/
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Dieuwer
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:56 pm

"Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do".

To me, "We gonna built a wall" is another one of POTUS' empty rhetoric.
 
WIederling
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:43 pm

falstaff wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Some people believe the greatest (only?) threat to the security of the United States is Mexicans.


Just because a person comes across the Mexican border doesn't mean the person is a Mexican national. There was an article in the Detroit Free Press a couple months ago about a Romanian man in the country illegally. Due to criminal convictions in Romania he couldn't enter the US, however he came into Brazil and worked his way to the US from Mexico.

There was another story in the Detroit Free Press six months ago or so, that showed 100s of Haitians being detained, by Mexican authorities, near Tijuana. The article talked about how they came from Brazil and worked their way through Mexico to the US border. The Detroit Free Press is hardly a conservative publication so I doubt they would be overstating the situation, for political purposes. I was actually surprised they reported on it all.

tommy1808 wrote:
Isn´t most illegal immigration into the United States from legal entry and overstaying the Visa?


I don't know if it still is, but it has been in the past.

prebennorholm wrote:
Wrong. It is in fact opposite. The Berlin Wall was to prevent outflow, the Trump Wall is to limit inflow.


A good buddy of mine, in Halle, Germany, was an East German policeman (Volkspolizei). I once asked him what was the penalty for illegally entering the German Democratic Republic? He smiled and replied "I don't know... Why would anyone want to sneak in?" He personally couldn't remember any cases of people coming in the DDR illegally. He said he was sure it happened, but wasn't involved in anything like that. He was a DDR DVP for five years before reunification. Today he is a senior police official in Saxony-Anhalt.


over the years more than 500,000 from West Germany into the "DDR".
ref: http://www.spiegel.de/einestages/uebers ... 36756.html

Merkels parents moved to Templin (DDR) in 1954. :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
seb146
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:08 pm

WIederling wrote:
falstaff wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Some people believe the greatest (only?) threat to the security of the United States is Mexicans.


Just because a person comes across the Mexican border doesn't mean the person is a Mexican national. There was an article in the Detroit Free Press a couple months ago about a Romanian man in the country illegally. Due to criminal convictions in Romania he couldn't enter the US, however he came into Brazil and worked his way to the US from Mexico.

There was another story in the Detroit Free Press six months ago or so, that showed 100s of Haitians being detained, by Mexican authorities, near Tijuana. The article talked about how they came from Brazil and worked their way through Mexico to the US border. The Detroit Free Press is hardly a conservative publication so I doubt they would be overstating the situation, for political purposes. I was actually surprised they reported on it all.

tommy1808 wrote:
Isn´t most illegal immigration into the United States from legal entry and overstaying the Visa?


I don't know if it still is, but it has been in the past.

prebennorholm wrote:
Wrong. It is in fact opposite. The Berlin Wall was to prevent outflow, the Trump Wall is to limit inflow.


A good buddy of mine, in Halle, Germany, was an East German policeman (Volkspolizei). I once asked him what was the penalty for illegally entering the German Democratic Republic? He smiled and replied "I don't know... Why would anyone want to sneak in?" He personally couldn't remember any cases of people coming in the DDR illegally. He said he was sure it happened, but wasn't involved in anything like that. He was a DDR DVP for five years before reunification. Today he is a senior police official in Saxony-Anhalt.


over the years more than 500,000 from West Germany into the "DDR".
ref: http://www.spiegel.de/einestages/uebers ... 36756.html

Merkels parents moved to Templin (DDR) in 1954. :-)


Interesting read. I had Google translate the page as I don't read German. Some of those going to the East wanted to be with their families, others could not cope with the free market West. That is how I read the translation. Still, there was harsh interrogations by the East and not everyone got to stay.
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PanHAM
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:54 am

The Ministry of State Security made sure that there was not a single Person staying illegally in the DDR. The DDR was the perfect Police state. Those who decided to live therehad to turn themselves in at border crossing and had to endure weeks of interrogation. If they failed they were simply turned back into the Federal Republic. There was not a single Person living illegally in the DDR.
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seb146
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:35 am

PanHAM wrote:
The Ministry of State Security made sure that there was not a single Person staying illegally in the DDR. The DDR was the perfect Police state. Those who decided to live therehad to turn themselves in at border crossing and had to endure weeks of interrogation. If they failed they were simply turned back into the Federal Republic. There was not a single Person living illegally in the DDR.


And that was all well and good for East Germany. The United States is very different. Illegal immigration to the United States is not about separating families or wanting to live in a police state. It is about better wages here and less violence. Three mass shootings in two days and a rash of drive by shootings say otherwise, but that is for a different thread.

People are willing to be in the United States illegally because of wealth distribution. They have none in their home country so they come here to pick produce in the fields or get picked up for day labor and send some of that money back to their family. Jobs that average Americans do not want to do and the government will not enforce.
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WIederling
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:09 am

seb146 wrote:
People are willing to be in the United States illegally because of wealth distribution. They have none in their home country .....


Quite often due to the US liberating them and/or sponsoring military dictatorships and such in their home countries.

On the other hand illegals are the perfect way to get around minimum wage laws.
keeping illegals on their toes and denying them a workable solution forces them to be soft on
the wage side. ( make a ruckus and you are heckled by Immigration )

Afaics the screaming over "illegal aliens" is just another element of systemic bigotry.
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VTKillarney
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:23 am

seb146 wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
Illegal immigration to the United States is not about separating families or wanting to live in a police state. It is about better wages here and less violence. Three mass shootings in two days and a rash of drive by shootings say otherwise, but that is for a different thread.

This is the problem with offering anecdotes as dispositive evidence.

Let’s look at some actual homicide rates per 100,000:
El Salvador: 82
Guatemala 27
Honduras: 56
Belize: 37
Mexico 19
United States 5
 
WIederling
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:32 am

VTKillarney wrote:
seb146 wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
Illegal immigration to the United States is not about separating families or wanting to live in a police state. It is about better wages here and less violence. Three mass shootings in two days and a rash of drive by shootings say otherwise, but that is for a different thread.

This is the problem with offering anecdotes as dispositive evidence.

Let’s look at some actual homicide rates per 100,000:
El Salvador: 82
Guatemala 27
Honduras: 56
Belize: 37
Mexico 19
United States 5


Other first tier nations ( excl. US ) .2 to 1.2
ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... By_country
Must be something special in the Americas.
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emperortk
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:47 am

WIederling wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
seb146 wrote:

This is the problem with offering anecdotes as dispositive evidence.

Let’s look at some actual homicide rates per 100,000:
El Salvador: 82
Guatemala 27
Honduras: 56
Belize: 37
Mexico 19
United States 5


Other first tier nations ( excl. US ) .2 to 1.2
ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... By_country
Must be something special in the Americas.


Yes, economic inequality.

But by all means, please continue with the America-bashing. It's very productive.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:24 pm

seb146 wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
The Ministry of State Security made sure that there was not a single Person staying illegally in the DDR. The DDR was the perfect Police state. Those who decided to live therehad to turn themselves in at border crossing and had to endure weeks of interrogation. If they failed they were simply turned back into the Federal Republic. There was not a single Person living illegally in the DDR.


And that was all well and good for East Germany. The United States is very different. Illegal immigration to the United States is not about separating families or wanting to live in a police state. It is about better wages here and less violence. Three mass shootings in two days and a rash of drive by shootings say otherwise, but that is for a different thread.

People are willing to be in the United States illegally because of wealth distribution. They have none in their home country so they come here to pick produce in the fields or get picked up for day labor and send some of that money back to their family. Jobs that average Americans do not want to do and the government will not enforce.



I was reflecting on Wlederlings remarks, not on the current issues the US have with a wall to Mexico. And there was nothing good about the DDR either.

It was mentioned earlier here that the Berlin wall was build, together with the walls and fences separatig East and West Germany to Keep People in the DDR and killing those who wanted to exercise trheir Basic right of free movement.

The Mexico wall is to Keep illegal Immigration to a Minimum. Whatever, one Thing s for sure, Mexico won't pay for it
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seb146
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:55 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
seb146 wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
Illegal immigration to the United States is not about separating families or wanting to live in a police state. It is about better wages here and less violence. Three mass shootings in two days and a rash of drive by shootings say otherwise, but that is for a different thread.

This is the problem with offering anecdotes as dispositive evidence.

Let’s look at some actual homicide rates per 100,000:
El Salvador: 82
Guatemala 27
Honduras: 56
Belize: 37
Mexico 19
United States 5


Compare the United States to Third World countries. Nice. I will remember this when righties start crying about "...but Chicago!!!"
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seb146
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:01 pm

PanHAM wrote:
seb146 wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
The Ministry of State Security made sure that there was not a single Person staying illegally in the DDR. The DDR was the perfect Police state. Those who decided to live therehad to turn themselves in at border crossing and had to endure weeks of interrogation. If they failed they were simply turned back into the Federal Republic. There was not a single Person living illegally in the DDR.


And that was all well and good for East Germany. The United States is very different. Illegal immigration to the United States is not about separating families or wanting to live in a police state. It is about better wages here and less violence. Three mass shootings in two days and a rash of drive by shootings say otherwise, but that is for a different thread.

People are willing to be in the United States illegally because of wealth distribution. They have none in their home country so they come here to pick produce in the fields or get picked up for day labor and send some of that money back to their family. Jobs that average Americans do not want to do and the government will not enforce.



I was reflecting on Wlederlings remarks, not on the current issues the US have with a wall to Mexico. And there was nothing good about the DDR either.


S/He had posted a link to an interesting story about entering DDR and wanting to stay. Some people thought DDR was better than the west.

It was mentioned earlier here that the Berlin wall was build, together with the walls and fences separatig East and West Germany to Keep People in the DDR and killing those who wanted to exercise trheir Basic right of free movement.

The Mexico wall is to Keep illegal Immigration to a Minimum. Whatever, one Thing s for sure, Mexico won't pay for it


Mexico will not pay for a northern border wall to keep people in, no they will not. They also do not have the economy to support those who cross illegally from Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Colombia, etc. Their military has to fight cartels as well as defend the borders.

If people are so worried about illegal immigration from the south, why don't those people go and work in the fields or stand at Home Depot and take jobs away from illegals? Why don't they defend the southern border?
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trpmb6
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:16 pm

Well wasn't there a post about us funding the building of a southern wall on Mexico's border? :hyper: :duck:
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:51 pm

seb146 wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
seb146 wrote:

This is the problem with offering anecdotes as dispositive evidence.

Let’s look at some actual homicide rates per 100,000:
El Salvador: 82
Guatemala 27
Honduras: 56
Belize: 37
Mexico 19
United States 5


Compare the United States to Third World countries. Nice. I will remember this when righties start crying about "...but Chicago!!!"

The comparison was to disapprove your allegation – which it did. You shouldn’t read anything more into it.
 
PanHAM
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:15 am

In a free Society, people can think what they want but the DDR never was a free Society. The DDR regime was never legitimated by a free election. The 17 miliom Germans living in the east were denied, the Basic right of free movement and the DDR Regime enforced that by brutal border control.

I comparison, the wall to Mexico is a way to fight illegal Immigration, which is a sovereign right of the USA.
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tommy1808
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:26 am

seb146 wrote:
.
If people are so worried about illegal immigration from the south, why don't those people go and work in the fields or stand at Home Depot and take jobs away from illegals? Why don't they defend the southern border?


Well, once they found all the kids they kidnapped and have reunited them with their parents, they can drugg up and put employers in those cages if they get cought hiring illegals and systematically enforce that.
That would stop illegal immigration pretty cold and probably without extra cost. While you are at it, seize and auction off any company that systematically employed illegals. Usually you don't get to keep the tools you used to commit your crime.

Best regards
Thomas
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N14AZ
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:27 am

Dutchy wrote:
Didn't want to open yet another Trump tread, so this is slightly off topic, but yet again precise on target.

[...]he advises Europe to solve the migrant crisis by putting a wall in the Sahara. [...] How that should be done in practice, the president has no idea. That the wall should be built on foreign territory, for example, because Spain has only two small enclaves in North Africa, he dismissed as a detail.

For information: a wall through the Sahara would cross eleven countries: Algeria, Chad, Egypt, Eritrea, Libya, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Niger, Sudan and Tunisia.


Good lord, he still manages to surprise me...
 
anrec80
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:31 pm

Dutchy wrote:
This president keeps on given. It is quite shocking a little he knows and realizing what he is actually are saying and the consequences of such projects.

In Dutch: Article


Yes, this President makes his best effort to deliver on what he promised, and that earns a lot of respect. I do support every single one of his immigration ideas. I do believe that the wall and fortifications are needed - you have uncontrolled flow of people nobody knows anything about. Some of those can be genuine workers, but others aren’t. You have flow of drugs. Then these drugs (and these people sometimes) ignite bloody gangs wars inside the country. Many of those people also come with intent to be benefitting off state’s welfare system and work for cash.

I also like very much his recent initiative, according to which any non-citizen social assistance and welfare recipients are to get denied their visa/status renewal. The country needs people who are able and willing to contribute, not someone who claims to “need help”. This is absolutely fine thing - immigration is not for everyone, and since this move didn’t work out for you, it’s better for everyone if you go back home.

I would have gone even further. Someone who wants to sponsor someone else in needs to demonstrate their ability to pick up financial responsibility for them. I.e. someone wants to bring a wife from outside - sure, do you have enough income to support them all? You want to bring elderly parents - alright, but a) pre-paid non-cancellable long term care insurance policy for both, and b) enough income to pay full Medicare premiums for both of them. Those are hefty, yes - a pre-paid LTC policy for someone in the age of 55 can cost $50K easily. But everyone in the society need to understand the true price of those “rights”.

For example, Canada’s immigration policy is that strong in fact. For example, In Canada, if you marry someone and later they divorce you and claim social assistance benefits, the government will make you reimburse the costs of those benefits. And these are the measures you also need in Europe to help cope with all your migrant problems.
 
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DL717
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:35 pm

prebennorholm wrote:
Wrong. It is in fact opposite. The Berlin Wall was to prevent outflow, the Trump Wall is to limit inflow.

Every Mexican can visit the US until his tourist visa expires. The wall is made to limit illegal immigration.


The end.
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anrec80
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:40 pm

seb146 wrote:
It is about better wages here and less violence.


Not only. In many cases (if not most) it’s also about easy access to welfare benefits, and providing oneself a comfortable living at someone else’s expense not worrying about anything.

seb146 wrote:
People are willing to be in the United States illegally because of wealth distribution. They have none in their home country so they come here to pick produce in the fields or get picked up for day labor and send some of that money back to their family. Jobs that average Americans do not want to do and the government will not enforce.


Sure, they can do it. But that needs to happen legally - establish an appropriately sized temporary seasonal workers program, where such visas would be inexpensive and easy to obtain. Then these workers would contribute to Social Secuity and get benefits at the retirement age, according to what has been paid for them. And in this case - there will be a record of who these people are and how long they are here for.
 
seb146
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:27 pm

anrec80 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
It is about better wages here and less violence.


Not only. In many cases (if not most) it’s also about easy access to welfare benefits, and providing oneself a comfortable living at someone else’s expense not worrying about anything.


I want you to walk into the welfare office tomorrow morning with no documentation at all and tell them to give you welfare. See what happens. I'll wait.

anrec80 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
People are willing to be in the United States illegally because of wealth distribution. They have none in their home country so they come here to pick produce in the fields or get picked up for day labor and send some of that money back to their family. Jobs that average Americans do not want to do and the government will not enforce.


Sure, they can do it. But that needs to happen legally - establish an appropriately sized temporary seasonal workers program, where such visas would be inexpensive and easy to obtain. Then these workers would contribute to Social Secuity and get benefits at the retirement age, according to what has been paid for them. And in this case - there will be a record of who these people are and how long they are here for.


For the most part, the government knows who is hiring illegals. Go after them. And, like I said, get Americans out there picking crops and building things for minimum wage or less.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
anrec80
Posts: 1994
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:11 am

seb146 wrote:
I want you to walk into the welfare office tomorrow morning with no documentation at all and tell them to give you welfare. See what happens. I'll wait.


Nobody says it’s doable overnight. But there is a notion of a “sanctuary state” (or city) - where local authorities don’t care about immigration status. New York, CA is an example. Anyone can get a valid ID based on a passport. Then - you can get state sponsored housing, food stamps, Medicaid. And - work for cash in a migrant community of course. Then - there are unwritten rules about “marriages” for a sake of paperwork, “H1B sponsorships” and the likes.

seb146 wrote:
For the most part, the government knows who is hiring illegals. Go after them. And, like I said, get Americans out there picking crops and building things for minimum wage or less.


Not really. Can you go after every single pizza place? A small grocery store? A food truck? A small construction firm? Here in NYC, local police doesn’t check immigration status, but there are some federal INS agents that do.
 
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VTKillarney
Posts: 1661
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:29 am

seb146 wrote:


For the most part, the government knows who is hiring illegals. Go after them. And, like I said, get Americans out there picking crops and building things for minimum wage or less.

The whole point is to NOT allow companies to hire underpaid labor. The rice still gets picked in Japan.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:34 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
The rice still gets picked in Japan.

The culture most likely promotes work as a means of production without minding how much you're compensated.

Fruit also still gets picked in the US, but funny how the same people sitting on their lounge chairs, yelling at the NFL athletes for kneeling during the anthem, and complaining about moochers using government assistance wouldn't be caught dead working the fields for $7.25/hr.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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VTKillarney
Posts: 1661
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 pm

Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:44 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
The rice still gets picked in Japan.

The culture most likely promotes work as a means of production without minding how much you're compensated.

Japan allows a small number of highly trained agricultural workers. But they must be paid as much as Japanese citizens are paid. Wages are higher for all because the borders are controlled.
 
jetero
Posts: 4457
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Berlin wall vs Trump's wall

Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:27 am

VTKillarney wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
The rice still gets picked in Japan.

The culture most likely promotes work as a means of production without minding how much you're compensated.

Japan allows a small number of highly trained agricultural workers. But they must be paid as much as Japanese citizens are paid. Wages are higher for all because the borders are controlled.


The good thing is Japan has been frequently cited by economists as a model economy for the past, what, 20 years? Sign me up!

Ah, who am I kidding? I’d trade a wall to end this healthcare nonsense. Let’s go the Japanese way and provide healthcare for all!

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