Scipio
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Struggle for the Azov Sea

Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:47 pm

Around this time, two Ukrainian Navy ships (command/support/S&R ship A500 Donbas and seagoing tug A830 Korets) are attempting to cross the Kerch Strait from the Black Sea into the Azov Sea. The Ukrainian ships are being shadowed by two Russian patrol boats. A US Air Force RC-135V is reportedly patrolling nearby.

Two Ukrainian Navy gunboats, which were transported to the Azov Sea by road earlier this month, are moving in the direction of the Azov Strait to meet the incoming ships.

http://www.unian.info/society/10271232- ... media.html
 
anrec80
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:52 pm

Yeah, Russia/Ukraine mess. This time - because of Ukraine detaining Russian ships (e.g. Mekhanik Pogodin). The civil ship carrying a load of diesel fuel entered territorial waters, entered a Ukrainian port, but later Ukrainian port authorities said “the ship isn’t leaving anytime soon”. Just like that. No warrants, no court decisions. Someone probably saw the ship with valuable cargo, and found a creative way to snap these assets.

Such state-sponsored piracy of some sort. Of course such things trigger consequences.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:11 pm

Scipio wrote:
Around this time, two Ukrainian Navy ships (command/support/S&R ship A500 Donbas and seagoing tug A830 Korets) are attempting to cross the Kerch Strait from the Black Sea into the Azov Sea. The Ukrainian ships are being shadowed by two Russian patrol boats. A US Air Force RC-135V is reportedly patrolling nearby.

Two Ukrainian Navy gunboats, which were transported to the Azov Sea by road earlier this month, are moving in the direction of the Azov Strait to meet the incoming ships.

http://www.unian.info/society/10271232- ... media.html


Wow, a repair tender commissioned in 1969 and a tug from 1973 which has had it's weapons removed. I'm sure the Russians (rebels and not) are shaking with fear...
 
anrec80
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:07 pm

VSMUT wrote:

Wow, a repair tender commissioned in 1969 and a tug from 1973 which has had it's weapons removed. I'm sure the Russians (rebels and not) are shaking with fear...


Yeah - what did you expect from Ukrainians? They haven’t been getting anything new since their “independence”. Whatever was of any commercial value in their military has been and is being sold. And especially now - anything that’s of any commercial value is being sold, and they aren’t particularly selective of customers. They don’t mind to sell even to ISIS.

Hence for their own tasks, Ukrainian military has to make it work with whatever is of no value.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:13 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Yeah, Russia/Ukraine mess. This time - because of Ukraine detaining Russian ships (e.g. Mekhanik Pogodin). The civil ship carrying a load of diesel fuel entered territorial waters, entered a Ukrainian port, but later Ukrainian port authorities said “the ship isn’t leaving anytime soon”. Just like that. No warrants, no court decisions. Someone probably saw the ship with valuable cargo, and found a creative way to snap these assets.

Such state-sponsored piracy of some sort. Of course such things trigger consequences.

Wow! That's a great explanation of Russia's seizure of the Crimea!

See?
[quote}"Yeah, Russia/Ukraine mess. This time - because of Russia detaining Ukrainian territory. The Russian forces entered Ukraine territory, but later Russian authorities said “the land isn’t leaving our control anytime soon”. Just like that. No warrants, no court decisions. Someone probably saw the territory as valuable, and found a creative way to snap these assets.

Such state-sponsored piracy of some sort. Of course such things trigger consequences."[/quote]

Yup, state sponsored piracy does "trigger consequences".

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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scbriml
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:18 pm

anrec80 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

Wow, a repair tender commissioned in 1969 and a tug from 1973 which has had it's weapons removed. I'm sure the Russians (rebels and not) are shaking with fear...


Yeah - what did you expect from Ukrainians? They haven’t been getting anything new since their “independence”.


Hilarious that you put the word independence in quotes. Shows exactly how Russia thinks. I suppose Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania are also "independent" countries?

Missing the USSR much?
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Scipio
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:30 pm

The Ukrainian ships have passed the Kerch Strait, accompanied (and harassed) by a flotilla of about 10 Russian Navy and Coast Guard / FSB ships.

Footage of the ships passing underneath the Kerch bridge:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ntc9OFxZZE

President Poroshenko has congratulated the crews on the successful passage.

https://www.unian.info/politics/1027157 ... henko.html

The background to today's events is Russia's increasing harassment of commercial shipping to and from the Ukrainian ports on the Azov Sea (Mariupol and Berdyansk) since April of this year. This harassment has been condemned by the US and the EU.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2018/08/285578.htm
http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/529213.html

On September 6, Ukraine's Security Council decided on a number of measures to increase Ukraine's defense capabilities in and around the Sea of Azov, including the establishment of a naval base in Berdyansk.

http://www.janes.com/article/82946/ukra ... n-azov-sea

With today's passage of Donbas and Korets, the Ukrainian Navy now has four ships in the Azov Sea. Earlier this month, the small gunboats P-177 Kremenchuk and P-178 Lubny were transported by road to Berdyansk.

Donbas's main function will be to establish and assist in the development of a basic support infrastructure in Berdyansk.

Ukraine's Navy had been absent from the Sea of Azov since the occupation of Crimea in 2014. Ukraine's only maritime (defense) presence since 2014 had been some Coast Guard vessels based in Mariupol (including ships that were evacuated from Crimea before Russia's occupation forces could seize them).
 
Scipio
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:44 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Scipio wrote:
Around this time, two Ukrainian Navy ships (command/support/S&R ship A500 Donbas and seagoing tug A830 Korets) are attempting to cross the Kerch Strait from the Black Sea into the Azov Sea. The Ukrainian ships are being shadowed by two Russian patrol boats. A US Air Force RC-135V is reportedly patrolling nearby.

Two Ukrainian Navy gunboats, which were transported to the Azov Sea by road earlier this month, are moving in the direction of the Azov Strait to meet the incoming ships.

http://www.unian.info/society/10271232- ... media.html


Wow, a repair tender commissioned in 1969 and a tug from 1973 which has had it's weapons removed. I'm sure the Russians (rebels and not) are shaking with fear...


Perhaps it needs reminding that the Ukrainian Navy's best ships were seized by the Russians in Crimea and are still there?

Kudos to the Ukrainian crews for taking their old ships through Russian-controlled waters today.
 
alfa164
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:02 pm

anrec80 wrote:
No warrants, no court decisions. Someone probably saw (SOMETHING) valuable cargo, and found a creative way to snap these assets. Such state-sponsored piracy of some sort. Of course such things trigger consequences.


You must be talking about how Russia confiscated Crimea... :checkmark:
 
anrec80
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:51 am

Tugger wrote:
Wow! That's a great explanation of Russia's seizure of the Crimea!


alfa164 wrote:
You must be talking about how Russia confiscated Crimea... :checkmark:



No. You don’t compare a cargo vessel and a peninsula with 2.5 million people on it. Those people have their own interests and desires. And they expressed their will at a referendum organized by their own elected Parliament. Ships don’t have parliaments and hold votes.
 
anrec80
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:55 am

Scipio wrote:
Perhaps it needs reminding that the Ukrainian Navy's best ships were seized by the Russians in Crimea and are still there?

Kudos to the Ukrainian crews for taking their old ships through Russian-controlled waters today.


Yes, and Ukraine remembers that. Russian navy keeps those ships afloat at their cost. They’ve said number of times - Ukraine is welcome and come and pick their ships up if they want them.
 
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:51 am

scbriml wrote:
Hilarious that you put the word independence in quotes. Shows exactly how Russia thinks. I suppose Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania are also "independent" countries?


Did you just apply the word “country” to those territories? I don’t, and would not. Since Baltic republics left the USSR, their population dropped by like 1/3. Everyone who is able to so anything leaves to the West, as soon as they are done schools, to take any jobs (a-la Mexicans migrants in the USA). They demolished their industry, their economy just for a sake of joining EU. They are totally reliant upon EU’s finding. Their political elite isn’t even theirs, it was sent to them from USA and Canada. I won’t even mention real ability to take steps in their nationail interests within EU and NATO membership. Or that they have their residents divided into first and second class (the latter being “non-citizens”). If the EU falls apart - what will these million of migrants come back on (in terms of jobs, housing)?

Ukraine is even sadder story. Its leadership would do anything for anyone who is willing to loan them another billion or two dollars (on which Ukraine has been even compared to a call-girl). They are waging a war against own people. They also got a descent of Georgian and a few American losers to help them govern (at least they mostly got rid of them by now). On Maidan, Ukrainians wanted EU integration - but for each individually, so that they could leave the country. And since - millions of most able and hardworking did, skilled ones to Russia, unskilled ones to Poland mostly for cheap manual labor. Polish and Hungarian ministers roam around border regions and behave as if these territories are their countries already - handing out passports, Polish national cards, funding schools, designing curriculum there. Not even bothering to check with Kiev of course.

The ideas of Ukrainian nation, Ukraine as a state is not in demand firstly with people who live on that territory. And this is the true tragedy - for these people and that region. There is noting hilarious anywhere here. Baltics share similar traits.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:18 am

anrec80 wrote:
Yeah, Russia/Ukraine mess. This time - because of Ukraine detaining Russian ships (e.g. Mekhanik Pogodin). The civil ship carrying a load of diesel fuel entered territorial waters, entered a Ukrainian port, but later Ukrainian port authorities said “the ship isn’t leaving anytime soon”. Just like that. No warrants, no court decisions. Someone probably saw the ship with valuable cargo, and found a creative way to snap these assets.

Such state-sponsored piracy of some sort. Of course such things trigger consequences.


Russia is occupying Ukrainian territory. Ukraine can seize, shot at or sink anything Russian ship they want, or attack, bomb and destroy whatever they chose in Russia.

Russia has exactly no right to complain about any of it before removing itself from Crimea, as they are the aggressor.

Just because Putin forgot to declare war doesn´t mean Ukraine can´t fight back.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
anrec80
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:40 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Russia is occupying Ukrainian territory. Ukraine can seize, shot at or sink anything Russian ship they want, or attack, bomb and destroy whatever they chose in Russia.

Russia has exactly no right to complain about any of it before removing itself from Crimea, as they are the aggressor.

Just because Putin forgot to declare war doesn´t mean Ukraine can´t fight back.

best regards
Thomas


There are 2 parts to these. First - it were Crimean residents who made their decision. That matter is closed. Second - where’s the war? Ukraine and Russia still have “Big Friendship and Cooperation Treaty” in force. Trade volumes with Russia are almost rivaling EU, and greater than any EU country. Ukrainian railways send maybe a dozen trains every day to Russia. There are embassy in each country and a few consulates to add to that. Just today a pair of Ukrainian military ships sailed under the Crimean bridge. There is visa-free travel beween the countries. Millions of Ukrainians come to work and move to Russia recently. So where’s the war? Show me Ukraine-Russia war!
 
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:51 am

anrec80 wrote:
That matter is closed.


only in the Russian fantasy world. Crimea will never be a recognized part of Russia, unless it is returned to Ukraine and a legal referendum is held deciding to make it so.

Until that day Ukraine can seize and attack whatever Russian they want.

Occupation has consequences. Russia has well earned everything coming to it right now.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Tugger
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:56 am

anrec80 wrote:
First - it were Crimean residents who made their decision.

What if they held another vote and wanted to be independent?


Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
tommy1808
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:06 am

Tugger wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
First - it were Crimean residents who made their decision.

What if they held another vote and wanted to be independent?


Tugg


"They" didn´t hold any vote yet, the Occupation forces held one. It would be their first vote.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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scbriml
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:42 am

anrec80 wrote:
Did you just apply the word “country” to those territories? I don’t, and would not.


Exactly, Russian imperialism writ large. :sarcastic:
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anrec80
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:00 am

Tugger wrote:
What if they held another vote and wanted to be independent?


Tugg


They are obviously happy where they are now and it works for them. They aren’t looking to have any other votes. In this satiation, this question is not unlike “what if Texas holds a vote and decides to be independent?”.
 
anrec80
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:01 am

scbriml wrote:

Exactly, Russian imperialism writ large. :sarcastic:


This is not an “imperialism” of any kind. Just statement of a point of view - these are failed states. Nothing else. And nobody needs any of them - neither the whole thing or any parts of them (as of now at least).
 
anrec80
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:09 am

tommy1808 wrote:

only in the Russian fantasy world. Crimea will never be a recognized part of Russia, unless it is returned to Ukraine and a legal referendum is held deciding to make it so.


Crimea isn’t a piece of property to be bounced back and forth. There are 2.5 million people who live there, and the outcome of the referendum is clear. You may or may not recognize it. You may or may not consider their referendum legitimate. But they held it for themselves, to determine what they want to do. And they apparently do consider it legitimate for themselves.

tommy1808 wrote:

Until that day Ukraine can seize and attack whatever Russian they want.

Occupation has consequences. Russia has well earned everything coming to it right now.

best regards
Thomas

Russia has a lot of means to reply to Ukraine for that, and not only publicly visible. Most real responses aren’t publicly visible. Speaking of “everything coming to it” - just be sure this doesn’t come back to the USA in some unexpected ways. All this has been providing to them a lot of opportunities, and they certainly are taking advantage of those. Which is a fair game.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:32 am

anrec80 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

only in the Russian fantasy world. Crimea will never be a recognized part of Russia, unless it is returned to Ukraine and a legal referendum is held deciding to make it so.


Crimea isn’t a piece of property to be bounced back and forth. There are 2.5 million people who live there, and the outcome of the referendum is clear. You may or may not recognize it. You may or may not consider their referendum legitimate. But they held it for themselves, to determine what they want to do. And they apparently do consider it legitimate for themselves.


Indeed Crimea isn't a piece of property, so grabbing it like Russia has done is quite illegal. The "referendum" was held in order for Russians to point to and have an air of legitimacy. Just like you are doing here, over and over again. There was nothing fair about it or even independent. But heck it served it purpose for Russian domestic use.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:40 am

anrec80 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

only in the Russian fantasy world. Crimea will never be a recognized part of Russia, unless it is returned to Ukraine and a legal referendum is held deciding to make it so.


Crimea isn’t a piece of property to be bounced back and forth. .


exactly. It is Ukrainian property until the day they voluntarily give it up.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:21 am

Scipio wrote:

Perhaps it needs reminding that the Ukrainian Navy's best ships were seized by the Russians in Crimea and are still there?

Kudos to the Ukrainian crews for taking their old ships through Russian-controlled waters today.


Ukraine didn't have any best ships, their navy could barely make it out to sea let alone fight someone.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:37 am

anrec80 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
What if they held another vote and wanted to be independent?


Tugg


They are obviously happy where they are now and it works for them. They aren’t looking to have any other votes. In this satiation, this question is not unlike “what if Texas holds a vote and decides to be independent?”.


I think a better analogy is what if South Tyrol holds a vote and wants to reunify with Austria. It's very similar situation in South Tyrol there's a majority Austrian population who never wanted to be part of Italy but were given to Italy without their consent. Seeing italy broken into chunks and parted out would be fun to watch.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:52 am

Kiwirob wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
What if they held another vote and wanted to be independent?


Tugg


They are obviously happy where they are now and it works for them. They aren’t looking to have any other votes. In this satiation, this question is not unlike “what if Texas holds a vote and decides to be independent?”.


I think a better analogy is what if South Tyrol holds a vote and wants to reunify with Austria.


Austria invading South Tyrol and then holding a fake referendum would be the correct analogy.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:55 am

tommy1808 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

only in the Russian fantasy world. Crimea will never be a recognized part of Russia, unless it is returned to Ukraine and a legal referendum is held deciding to make it so.


Crimea isn’t a piece of property to be bounced back and forth. .


exactly. It is Ukrainian property until the day they voluntarily give it up.

best regards
Thomas


Pull your head out of your butt Thommy, Ukraine lost this territory, they won't get it back, there are so many other territories like this around the world which were taken and never given back why should Crimea be any different? There's Hawaii, South Tyrol, Palestine, Ceuta and Melilla, Kosovo, Nagorno-Karabakh, Golan Heights, North Cyprus.....this is off the top of my head, I'm sure there are dozens more.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:04 am

Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

Crimea isn’t a piece of property to be bounced back and forth. .


exactly. It is Ukrainian property until the day they voluntarily give it up.

best regards
Thomas


Pull your head out of your butt Thommy, Ukraine lost this territory, they won't get it back, there are so many other territories like this around the world which were taken and never given back why should Crimea be any different? There's Hawaii, South Tyrol, Palestine, Ceuta and Melilla, Kosovo, Nagorno-Karabakh, Golan Heights, North Cyprus.....this is off the top of my head, I'm sure there are dozens more.


Most of those have in common that they legally still belong to the country that they belong to and that there are sanctions in place against the occupating country.
Russia will face sanction until our sun turns cold or Crimea is returned.

Beat regards
Thomas
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Scipio
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:27 am

UK Defense Secretary Gavin Williamson visited the frontlines in Eastern Ukraine last week, and pledged to increase the UK's training and support efforts to the Ukrainian Navy and military. As part of these efforts, Royal Marines will be deployed to Ukraine by year-end and the Royal Navy will step up its patrols in the Black Sea.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09 ... op-russia/

The crisis around the Sea of Azov is very much on the radar screen in western capitals, and it will only further increase support for Ukraine...
 
Scorpius
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:51 am

scbriml wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

Wow, a repair tender commissioned in 1969 and a tug from 1973 which has had it's weapons removed. I'm sure the Russians (rebels and not) are shaking with fear...


Yeah - what did you expect from Ukrainians? They haven’t been getting anything new since their “independence”.


Hilarious that you put the word independence in quotes. Shows exactly how Russia thinks. I suppose Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania are also "independent" countries?

Missing the USSR much?

Certainly. Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania withdrew from one Union to join another immediately. Where is the independence here? They just decided to choose another "owner".
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:00 pm

Scorpius wrote:
scbriml wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

Yeah - what did you expect from Ukrainians? They haven’t been getting anything new since their “independence”.


Hilarious that you put the word independence in quotes. Shows exactly how Russia thinks. I suppose Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania are also "independent" countries?

Missing the USSR much?

Certainly. Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania withdrew from one Union to join another immediately. Where is the independence here? They just decided to choose another "owner".


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

The EU doesn't own the Baltic states. The Baltic states "own" the EU, for a part, veto rights on some area's. The Baltic states were forced to join the USSR and wanted to join the EU by their own account. They are free to give up their membership, just like the UK is doing right now, that wasn't possible with the USSR. The USSR blow itself up and after that they were free. See the difference there?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:01 pm

Scipio wrote:
Around this time, two Ukrainian Navy ships (command/support/S&R ship A500 Donbas and seagoing tug A830 Korets) are attempting to cross the Kerch Strait from the Black Sea into the Azov Sea. The Ukrainian ships are being shadowed by two Russian patrol boats. A US Air Force RC-135V is reportedly patrolling nearby.

Two Ukrainian Navy gunboats, which were transported to the Azov Sea by road earlier this month, are moving in the direction of the Azov Strait to meet the incoming ships.

http://www.unian.info/society/10271232- ... media.html

In order to solve all the problems, Ukraine should only work out with Russia the rules of sharing the territory of the Azov sea. That's it. But the current Ukrainian authorities are purposefully going to the conflict with Russia - and receive an adequate response.
"Warships" of the Ukrainians is extremely outdated Soviet ships that haven't undergone a major overhaul with the moments of the collapse of the Soviet Union. Therefore, we should not expect that this incident is significant in terms of the chances of a change in the situation in the sea of Azov.
And I would recommend any foreign warships to get out of there. especially American.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:03 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Scipio wrote:
Around this time, two Ukrainian Navy ships (command/support/S&R ship A500 Donbas and seagoing tug A830 Korets) are attempting to cross the Kerch Strait from the Black Sea into the Azov Sea. The Ukrainian ships are being shadowed by two Russian patrol boats. A US Air Force RC-135V is reportedly patrolling nearby.

Two Ukrainian Navy gunboats, which were transported to the Azov Sea by road earlier this month, are moving in the direction of the Azov Strait to meet the incoming ships.

http://www.unian.info/society/10271232- ... media.html

In order to solve all the problems, Ukraine should only work out with Russia the rules of sharing the territory of the Azov sea. That's it. But the current Ukrainian authorities are purposefully going to the conflict with Russia - and receive an adequate response.
"Warships" of the Ukrainians is extremely outdated Soviet ships that haven't undergone a major overhaul with the moments of the collapse of the Soviet Union. Therefore, we should not expect that this incident is significant in terms of the chances of a change in the situation in the sea of Azov.
And I would recommend any foreign warships to get out of there. especially American.


Russia should give back Crimea, problem solved.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:06 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Hilarious that you put the word independence in quotes. Shows exactly how Russia thinks. I suppose Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania are also "independent" countries?

Missing the USSR much?

Certainly. Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania withdrew from one Union to join another immediately. Where is the independence here? They just decided to choose another "owner".


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

The EU doesn't own the Baltic states. The Baltic states "own" the EU, for a part, veto rights on some area's. The Baltic states were forced to join the USSR and wanted to join the EU by their own account. They are free to give up their membership, just like the UK is doing right now, that wasn't possible with the USSR. The USSR blow itself up and after that they were free. See the difference there?


Learn the history, Dutchy, the Baltic States did not exist before these territories entered The Russian Empire. And these countries appeared as separatist territories, which the Soviet leadership chose not to destroy at the root (as Europeans like to do), but to accept as national republics. As for who is there whose "master" is-the demographic statistics of the Baltic countries tell us quite clearly.
 
Scorpius
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:08 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Russia should give back Crimea, problem solved.

I am ready to talk about this after the NATO bloc is disbanded, and the United States disbanded all military bases outside the United States.
 
Scorpius
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:10 pm

Tugger wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
First - it were Crimean residents who made their decision.

What if they held another vote and wanted to be independent?


Tugg

I suggest you personally come to Crimea and interview the locals about their point of view on the issue.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:15 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Russia should give back Crimea, problem solved.

I am ready to talk about this after the NATO bloc is disbanded, and the United States disbanded all military bases outside the United States.


You are? Haha. Why should you give a damn about a few US basis on foreign soil, which the host nation is welcome to host? And the same with NATO, it isn't aggressive, in its nature it is a defense organization, so if you don't attack its members, there is no problem. But since you repeatedly stated that Russia wants to go to Lisbon, I would say, well let's keep it.

But given this statement, you finally admit that Crimea has been illegally taken, otherwise there was nothing to talk about. good for you.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:16 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Russia should give back Crimea, problem solved.

I am ready to talk about this after the NATO bloc is disbanded, and the United States disbanded all military bases outside the United States.


....where is the correlation between NATO and the continued illegal occupation of Crimea by the Pariah State Russia?

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Scorpius
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:29 pm

Dutchy wrote:

And the same with NATO, it isn't aggressive, in its nature it is a defense organization, so if you don't attack its members, there is no problem.

On one of the members of NATO attacked Yugoslavia? And Iraq? And Afghanistan? And Libya? And Syria?

But given this statement, you finally admit that Crimea has been illegally taken, otherwise there was nothing to talk about. good for you.

Your attempts at demagoguery will fail here, Dutchy. I never said anything about what you're trying to say right now. Crimea remains a territory that came in accordance with the UN Charter and the item on the right of Nations to self-determination.


Europe, like the whole West has long lost the right to demand something from Russia. If you continue to try to indicate that Russia will do - there will be a war. And Russian tanks will stand on the streets of Lisbon.

But since you repeatedly stated that Russia wants to go to Lisbon, I would say, well let's keep it.


Again, you're trying to use demagoguery. I did not say that Russia WANTS this. I said that Russia CAN. There's a difference between" Wants "and" Can", isn't there? And if Russia is forced - it CAN plunge Europe by military means. Judging by your behavior, this is exactly what you want and expect.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:37 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

And the same with NATO, it isn't aggressive, in its nature it is a defense organization, so if you don't attack its members, there is no problem.

On one of the members of NATO attacked Yugoslavia? And Iraq? And Afghanistan? And Libya? And Syria?


Are any of those annexed?

Europe, like the whole West has long lost the right to demand something from Russia. If you continue to try to indicate that Russia will do - there will be a war. And Russian tanks will stand on the streets of Lisbon.


victory parades showing war booty are a thing of the past and why would NATO hold those in Portugal of all places?

And if Russia is forced - it CAN plunge Europe by military means. Judging by your behavior, this is exactly what you want and expect.


Who forced Russia to invade its neighbors or to shoot down MH17? I don´t think the criminal at the top of your "State", if one wants to call a Mafiacratie a state, gets very far with his insanity defense either...

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:52 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

exactly. It is Ukrainian property until the day they voluntarily give it up.

best regards
Thomas


Pull your head out of your butt Thommy, Ukraine lost this territory, they won't get it back, there are so many other territories like this around the world which were taken and never given back why should Crimea be any different? There's Hawaii, South Tyrol, Palestine, Ceuta and Melilla, Kosovo, Nagorno-Karabakh, Golan Heights, North Cyprus.....this is off the top of my head, I'm sure there are dozens more.


Most of those have in common that they legally still belong to the country that they belong to and that there are sanctions in place against the occupating country.
Russia will face sanction until our sun turns cold or Crimea is returned.

Beat regards
Thomas


I think the sanctions against Russia will be gone by the next US Presidential elections, if not sooner. There's no point to them, all they do is make the country they are applied to self reliant and hurt the companies who were formally trading with the sanctioned country. Sanctions are about as stupid as Trump increasing tariffs on Chinese products, it's the US manufacturers and consumers who will end up paying for them not the Chinese.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:06 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Ukraine lost this territory, they won't get it back, there are so many other territories like this around the world which were taken and never given back why should Crimea be any different?

The key thing is the admission that it was taken. Period.

No fake stories, just invaded and taken.

Russia will have to deal with the modern consequences of the action.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
tommy1808
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Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:42 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Pull your head out of your butt Thommy, Ukraine lost this territory, they won't get it back, there are so many other territories like this around the world which were taken and never given back why should Crimea be any different? There's Hawaii, South Tyrol, Palestine, Ceuta and Melilla, Kosovo, Nagorno-Karabakh, Golan Heights, North Cyprus.....this is off the top of my head, I'm sure there are dozens more.


Most of those have in common that they legally still belong to the country that they belong to and that there are sanctions in place against the occupating country.
Russia will face sanction until our sun turns cold or Crimea is returned.

Beat regards
Thomas


I think the sanctions against Russia will be gone by the next US Presidential elections, if not sooner. There's no point to them, all they do is make the country they are applied to self reliant and hurt the companies who were formally trading with the sanctioned country. Sanctions are about as stupid as Trump increasing tariffs on Chinese products, it's the US manufacturers and consumers who will end up paying for them not the Chinese.


Sanctions against Israel are still in force 51 years after they invaded their neighbours, and there are no real signs of that changing. Russia will have to live with those sanctions for a long time to come. Productive isn't really the point, prison isn't productive either.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Scorpius
Posts: 813
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:44 pm

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Ukraine lost this territory, they won't get it back, there are so many other territories like this around the world which were taken and never given back why should Crimea be any different?

The key thing is the admission that it was taken. Period.

No fake stories, just invaded and taken.

Russia will have to deal with the modern consequences of the action.

Tugg

You can continue to deny the obvious. This is not going to get you anywhere. I will notice-in response to my offers to go to the Crimea personally and to be convinced that locals really consider a referendum lawful, you didn't answer anything and preferred to leave conversation.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:00 pm

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Ukraine lost this territory, they won't get it back, there are so many other territories like this around the world which were taken and never given back why should Crimea be any different?

The key thing is the admission that it was taken. Period.

No fake stories, just invaded and taken.

Russia will have to deal with the modern consequences of the action.

Tugg


Of course they took it but the people who live there are pretty happy about it. I was there a couple of months ago and I have to say it’s much nice now than it was the last time I went back in 2011. The roads have improved, the airport has improved. There’s lots of money being spent, and from just seeing people going about there daily lives they appear pretty happy.
 
Kiwirob
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Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:06 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Most of those have in common that they legally still belong to the country that they belong to and that there are sanctions in place against the occupating country.
Russia will face sanction until our sun turns cold or Crimea is returned.

Beat regards
Thomas


I think the sanctions against Russia will be gone by the next US Presidential elections, if not sooner. There's no point to them, all they do is make the country they are applied to self reliant and hurt the companies who were formally trading with the sanctioned country. Sanctions are about as stupid as Trump increasing tariffs on Chinese products, it's the US manufacturers and consumers who will end up paying for them not the Chinese.


Sanctions against Israel are still in force 51 years after they invaded their neighbours, and there are no real signs of that changing. Russia will have to live with those sanctions for a long time to come. Productive isn't really the point, prison isn't productive either.

Best regards
Thomas


What sanctions against Israel are those? Israel has a population hostile to its rule, there’s condemnation from many corners yet there is no arms embargo, not economic or consumer sanctions. The difference between the plight of the Palestinians and Crimean’s is pretty easy for anyone to see, Palestinians are fighting agains Israeli rule and are pretty unhappy, nobody is unhappy with the current situation in Crimea except Ukraine and internet warriors like you and Dutch, the people living in crimea aren’t resisting, they’re not fighting back, if there didn’t want Russian control I’m sure they would be fighting back, since they aren’t what does that tell you?
 
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Tugger
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:06 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Ukraine lost this territory, they won't get it back, there are so many other territories like this around the world which were taken and never given back why should Crimea be any different?

The key thing is the admission that it was taken. Period.

No fake stories, just invaded and taken.

Russia will have to deal with the modern consequences of the action.

Tugg


Of course they took it but the people who live there are pretty happy about it. I was there a couple of months ago and I have to say it’s much nice now than it was the last time I went back in 2011. The roads have improved, the airport has improved. There’s lots of money being spent, and from just seeing people going about there daily lives they appear pretty happy.

Well yes, Russia is pouring money into the place to keep people there happy. It is actually ridiculous how much money they are putting in there based on the Russian economy overall. But ultimately, if they are able to keep it, it will probably be profitable overall (excluding the costs of permanent sanctions related to it's seizure) as it is a very valuable piece of territory for numerous reasons (again why Russia took it).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 11711
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:16 pm

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
The key thing is the admission that it was taken. Period.

No fake stories, just invaded and taken.

Russia will have to deal with the modern consequences of the action.

Tugg


Of course they took it but the people who live there are pretty happy about it. I was there a couple of months ago and I have to say it’s much nice now than it was the last time I went back in 2011. The roads have improved, the airport has improved. There’s lots of money being spent, and from just seeing people going about there daily lives they appear pretty happy.

Well yes, Russia is pouring money into the place to keep people there happy. It is actually ridiculous how much money they are putting in there based on the Russian economy overall. But ultimately, if they are able to keep it, it will probably be profitable overall (excluding the costs of permanent sanctions related to it's seizure) as it is a very valuable piece of territory for numerous reasons (again why Russia took it).

Tugg


They have had to poor money in, if you had ever been to Crimea before the changeover it was a complete dump, nothing worked, industry was run down, roads were shit, hotels were pretty awful, there had been no investment in the region for years, which is amazing because it should have be a major tourist destination.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:21 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Of course they took it but the people who live there are pretty happy about it. I was there a couple of months ago and I have to say it’s much nice now than it was the last time I went back in 2011. The roads have improved, the airport has improved. There’s lots of money being spent, and from just seeing people going about there daily lives they appear pretty happy.

Well yes, Russia is pouring money into the place to keep people there happy. It is actually ridiculous how much money they are putting in there based on the Russian economy overall. But ultimately, if they are able to keep it, it will probably be profitable overall (excluding the costs of permanent sanctions related to it's seizure) as it is a very valuable piece of territory for numerous reasons (again why Russia took it).

Tugg


They have had to poor money in, if you had ever been to Crimea before the changeover it was a complete dump, nothing worked, industry was run down, roads were shit, hotels were pretty awful, there had been no investment in the region for years, which is amazing because it should have be a major tourist destination.

Yes, but Ukraine did not have the oil wealth (or nation scale) of Russia, so Crimea was mostly left to its own, with Russia paying Ukraine "rent" for Sevastopol. The fact that Ukraine is/was famously corrupt certainly also impacted this (but then Russia is also famously corrupt - that bridge didn't come cheap and was given to a Friend of..... Russia just has more money to work with).

Kiwirob wrote:
, the people living in crimea aren’t resisting, they’re not fighting back, if there didn’t want Russian control I’m sure they would be fighting back, since they aren’t what does that tell you?

That people with religious reasons are far more driven to fight and resist versus to near identical entities vying for control over an area they have battled over for centuries.

The population (majority Russian, with Tatars and Ukrainians as well) just mostly wants to be left alone and not worrying about "who's in charge". Russians being the majority of course don't so much mind Russia in charge. But the fact is it was taken and Russia will face lengthy consequences for that (my guess, about 20-50 years).

Tugg

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:32 pm

But all of Ukraine is falling to pieces, you just have to look at the shipbuilding industry, at the end of the soviet era the yards in Nikolaev were some of the most advanced anywhere in Europe, large facilities with well trained experienced employees, on decent wages, given the right management they could have become the biggest shipbuilding nation in Europe, with the income levels they could have competed with the Asians, but they let the entire industry fall apart, they can’t build much today. It’s sad when you can see what could have been but through sheer incompetence they wasted it. It’s the same deal with Antonov, lots of potential and nothing to show for it.

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