anrec80
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:39 pm

Dutchy wrote:
[
Indeed Crimea isn't a piece of property, so grabbing it like Russia has done is quite illegal. The "referendum" was held in order for Russians to point to and have an air of legitimacy. Just like you are doing here, over and over again. There was nothing fair about it or even independent. But heck it served it purpose for Russian domestic use.


The referendum was ordered and organized by Crimean parliament and Crimeans themselves, in order to determine the course of actions in the new post-Maidan circumstances. Fairness, independence - it is legitimate in their point of view, and that’s the primary thing that matters. It was intended to serve that purpose, and did so. They did it for themselves, not for you.
 
anrec80
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:51 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
[
Sanctions against Israel are still in force 51 years after they invaded their neighbours, and there are no real signs of that changing. Russia will have to live with those sanctions for a long time to come. Productive isn't really the point, prison isn't productive either.

Best regards
Thomas


And where’s the result of these sanctions? What changed?
 
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:55 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
But all of Ukraine is falling to pieces, you just have to look at the shipbuilding industry, at the end of the soviet era the yards in Nikolaev were some of the most advanced anywhere in Europe, large facilities with well trained experienced employees, on decent wages, given the right management they could have become the biggest shipbuilding nation in Europe, with the income levels they could have competed with the Asians, but they let the entire industry fall apart, they can’t build much today. It’s sad when you can see what could have been but through sheer incompetence they wasted it. It’s the same deal with Antonov, lots of potential and nothing to show for it.

Well yes, but their biggest customer was Russia and Russia made a concerted effort to move all such critical manufacturing to Russian ports to have control (properly so) over a key industry. This was only redoubled when the Ukraine stopped being a Russian puppet state and turned toward the EU. I doubt the Ukraine ship yards, as wonderful as they were, knew how to market themselves or run competitively. Corruption was and is rampant.

It is never easy when you bite the hand that feeds you. Even if you do so because that hand beats you. It still pulls away and no longer gives you food.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
anrec80
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:57 pm

Scipio wrote:

The crisis around the Sea of Azov is very much on the radar screen in western capitals, and it will only further increase support for Ukraine...


Where’s this support? Last rounds of sanctions haven’t been mentioning Ukraine for like 2 years now. Trendy topic of 2017 was “election meddling”, topic of 2018 - Skripal case. What support does the Ukraine get? Some minuscule loans of a billion here and a billion there? Someone came in, took a look, got thanked by the president. That’s about it.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:26 pm

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
But all of Ukraine is falling to pieces, you just have to look at the shipbuilding industry, at the end of the soviet era the yards in Nikolaev were some of the most advanced anywhere in Europe, large facilities with well trained experienced employees, on decent wages, given the right management they could have become the biggest shipbuilding nation in Europe, with the income levels they could have competed with the Asians, but they let the entire industry fall apart, they can’t build much today. It’s sad when you can see what could have been but through sheer incompetence they wasted it. It’s the same deal with Antonov, lots of potential and nothing to show for it.


Well yes, but their biggest customer was Russia and Russia made a concerted effort to move all such critical manufacturing to Russian ports to have control (properly so) over a key industry. This was only redoubled when the Ukraine stopped being a Russian puppet state and turned toward the EU. I doubt the Ukraine ship yards, as wonderful as they were, knew how to market themselves or run competitively. Corruption was and is rampant.

It is never easy when you bite the hand that feeds you. Even if you do so because that hand beats you. It still pulls away and no longer gives you food.

Tugg


Russia wasn’t the only customer for Ukrainian built ships. Several Ukrainian yards had a good deals going building hulls and blocks for European yards, one of the yards was bought by Damen from The Netherlands, even with Dutch management they still couldn’t control the corruption and they killed the golden goose.

In Russia itself they haven’t really built large ships, this is now changing, with investment in the Far East they have built a new yard and are redeveloping another one with Korean help, the intention is to start constructing LNG tankers and platforms. Most of the yards closer to Europe build ice breakers, river/sea dry cargo and tankers and now they’re building trawlers. Ukraine, East Germany, Poland and Croatia were the traditional builders for The Soviets larger commercial vessels, now they mostly come from Korea.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:54 am

Kiwirob wrote:
What sanctions against Israel are those? Israel has a population hostile to its rule, there’s condemnation from many corners yet there is no arms embargo, not economic or consumer sanctions.


The Trade agreement with the EU and Israel only pertains to products made within the 1967 borders, that is an economic sanction, removal of Embassy´s from Jerusalem.

anrec80 wrote:
And where’s the result of these sanctions? What changed?


Israel doesn´t get legal possession of occupied territory. That in itself is enough of a result. Well, i think the only time the World got it right was when Iraq occupied Kuwait, but unfortunately that option isn´t always available.

best regards
Thomas
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:22 am

The reaction to Iraq invading Kuwait only happened because Kuwait is swimming in oil, if it hadn't I doubt the world would have done anything, it would just be another dispute like Yemen where we aren't doing anything.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:58 am

Scipio wrote:
The crisis around the Sea of Azov is very much on the radar screen in western capitals, and it will only further increase support for Ukraine...


There is no crisis. 2 Ukrainian ships just sailed completely unopposed through a 3 km wide strait controlled by the Russians, and the Russians respected the 2003 treaty with Ukraine regarding the Sea of Azov. Stop trying to blow this non-news up into something big.


Dutchy wrote:
Russia should give back Crimea, problem solved.


No, a plebiscite needs to be held. It is no secret that there is a Russian population in these areas that ended up in Ukraine due to political restructuring of the Soviet Union. The territory was never historically Ukrainian. If a lasting peace is to be implemented, the people must decide.
Woodrow Wilson insisted on this following the first world war, acknowledging that some territories would ultimately befall the enemy, a small sacrifice in order to gain lasting peace. Let neutral countries arrange it, keep NATO and CSTO members out of it.
 
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:29 am

VSMUT wrote:
No, a plebiscite needs to be held


Under international supervision, after restoring the status quo ante bellum. There is just one correct level of compromise on territorial integrity: none. Every attempt to take territory has to be met with fierce resistance, there need to be sanctions and prosecution of those in charge.

With hindsight Wilson was an idiot, never ending wars come from territorial conflicts being resolved by force, which was plain visible when his stupid idea was tried as appeasement.

Best regards
Thomas
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tu204
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:22 pm

I would humor the idea of a plebicsite in Crimea. One that was somehow monitored by an international team of observers.

Ofcourse there can be no talk of returning Crimea under Ukranian control before any vote.Heck the Crimeans would allow that.

Unfortunately that ain't going to happen primarily because the western regimes will not send any official observers because they are not stupid and very well know what the results would be...
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
VSMUT
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:05 pm

tu204 wrote:
Unfortunately that ain't going to happen primarily because the western regimes will not send any official observers because they are not stupid and very well know what the results would be...


:checkmark:

The entire conflict could have been solved in less than half a year if the west wasn't so immature.

It doesn't even serve the interests of Ukraine to have a big population of disgruntled and regressive Russians hindering any attempts at moving towards the west. Cut them loose and move on.
 
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:32 pm

The Ukrainian Navy ships have completed their redeployment from Odesa to the Azov Sea. Donbas entered the port of Mariupol yesterday evening, Korets this morning.

According to the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense, the Ukrainian ships were subjected to Russian harassment and provocations during much of their 5-day voyage, including vessels maneuvering dangerously close, planes flying over at extremely low altitudes, and a Su-27 (serial number 30714, board number 30, from Belbek Airbase) conducting mock attacks on the Ukrainian ships and a Ukrainian Navy An-26. Even just outside Mariupol port, the Ukrainian ships were still harassed by a Russian Coast Guard patrol boat.

https://112.international/ukraine-top-n ... 32540.html

Btw, it has been busy in the skies off Crimea's coastline today: a US Air Force RQ-4B Global Hawk, a US Navy P-8A, and a Royal Air Force RC-135W were all seen flying along the Crimean coast on public flight tracking sources like fr24.

Here is a good read on the situation around the Azov Sea (despite some glaring factual errors in the article, including the statements that 80 percent of Ukraine's exports pass through the Azov Sea and that the Russian Black Sea Fleet boasts more than 2,800 vessels)

https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/ ... nflict-sea
 
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:02 am

VSMUT wrote:
. Cut them loose and move on.


Right.. let's make war an option again! The world was so peaceful when that was the case. That the reaction was so light is probably the reason why Putin felt he can get away with shooting down a passenger jet and using weapons of mass destruction on foreign soil. He needs to rot in Prison or be taken out. Appeasement doesn't work, never has, never will Mr. Chamberlain.


Best regards
Thomas
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:58 am

tommy1808 wrote:
The world was so peaceful when that was the case.


When was that ever the case? The borders of the world are mostly drawn up by the imperiums of the past. Current rulers, even democratic ones, are now stubbornly holding on to territory like hoarders. Are you honestly telling me that the Middle East wouldn't be better off with an independent Kurdish state? The entire India-Pakistani feud revolves around an India-held state that would probably rather not be part of India.


tommy1808 wrote:
Appeasement doesn't work, never has, never will Mr. Chamberlain.


It's not appeasement. It's about fixing the wrongs of the past. Do you honestly think the issue will go away if you succeed in punishing Putin? Of course it won't, it never will. Sooner or later (and given that this is Russia, probably sooner), a leader will come along who is going reignite the issue once more.
 
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:10 pm

VSMUT wrote:
When was that ever the case?


you´ll find few territories taken by force and kept since WW II.

tommy1808 wrote:
It's not appeasement. It's about fixing the wrongs of the past. Do you honestly think the issue will go away if you succeed in punishing Putin? Of course it won't, it never will. Sooner or later (and given that this is Russia, probably sooner), a leader will come along who is going reignite the issue once more.


It will disappear quite quickly, miraculously over night, the very day a large number of countries decides to remove any occupation forces by thread, by force if necessary, and won´t rest until the head of state is in a prison cell after that.

Frank Herbert got it right. The only absolute protection against any government using nukes is everyone with nukes agreeing they will vaporize whoever fires first together. The same has to be done with a occupation, with less nuking and more arresting.

And of course it is appeasement. Hitler had reasons to ask for the Sudetenland, much the same reasons as Putin has for Crimea. Letting hin have it was called appeasement. The last round of appeasement got how many people killed again?

best regards
Thomas
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ChrisKen
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:16 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Appeasement doesn't work, never has, never will Mr. Chamberlain.

Depends on the ultimate goal.....Mr Chamberlain is often much maligned (incorrectly) for his policy but it bought a large chunk of the much needed time for the UK & the Commonwealth to ramp up and mobilise their military forces. The notion that either he or the government thought it would actually work is false, while they 'hoped' it would, they were very much preparing for the eventual war.
 
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:52 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
And of course it is appeasement. Hitler had reasons to ask for the Sudetenland, much the same reasons as Putin has for Crimea. Letting hin have it was called appeasement. The last round of appeasement got how many people killed again?

best regards
Thomas


I would say Austria is a better example.

But anyhow, after a coup in their (at that time) country, one that violated the constitution of that said country (the same constitution that says some blah-blah-blah about the refferendum having to be country-wide and seeing everything go to shit pretty fast and rightfully being concerned about their well being, they decided to hold a refferendum and peace out.

There was no appeasement here. It was a rapidly developing situation that was not initiated by Crimeans or Russians. But by thugs in Kiev and supported by their western supporters and Crimeans reacted to the developing situation and Russia supported them. Simple as that.
If you see something wrong with this, you should first ask questions to your Chanclerin and all other EU officials that egged on the thugs on the Maydan.
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:03 pm

tu204 wrote:
and seeing everything go to shit pretty fast and rightfully being concerned about their well being, they decided to hold a refferendum and peace out.

There was no appeasement here. It was a rapidly developing situation that was not initiated by Crimeans or Russians. But by thugs in Kiev and supported by their western supporters and Crimeans reacted to the developing situation and Russia supported them. Simple as that.
If you see something wrong with this, you should first ask questions to your Chanclerin and all other EU officials that egged on the thugs on the Maydan.

Interesting shade of rose in your glasses....
There was no action by "they" without Russian troops an hand on the ground "securing" the situation. And it was not "initiated: until those troops were in control. But again, not trying to convince you. The consequences are something Russia now bears and will do so for many many years. And it did not have to be.

Tugg
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tu204
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:15 pm

Tugger wrote:
tu204 wrote:
and seeing everything go to shit pretty fast and rightfully being concerned about their well being, they decided to hold a refferendum and peace out.

There was no appeasement here. It was a rapidly developing situation that was not initiated by Crimeans or Russians. But by thugs in Kiev and supported by their western supporters and Crimeans reacted to the developing situation and Russia supported them. Simple as that.
If you see something wrong with this, you should first ask questions to your Chanclerin and all other EU officials that egged on the thugs on the Maydan.

Interesting shade of rose in your glasses....
There was no action by "they" without Russian troops an hand on the ground "securing" the situation. And it was not "initiated: until those troops were in control. But again, not trying to convince you. The consequences are something Russia now bears and will do so for many many years. And it did not have to be.

Tugg


Nope. Sequence of events is important.

Your average Joe Crimean guy started forming self-defence units and militias and were mostly supported by local police when shit hit the fan in Kiev. Russian forces only came in after to prevent the Ukranians from using their armed forces in Crimea to put them down.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:23 pm

tu204 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
tu204 wrote:
and seeing everything go to shit pretty fast and rightfully being concerned about their well being, they decided to hold a refferendum and peace out.

There was no appeasement here. It was a rapidly developing situation that was not initiated by Crimeans or Russians. But by thugs in Kiev and supported by their western supporters and Crimeans reacted to the developing situation and Russia supported them. Simple as that.
If you see something wrong with this, you should first ask questions to your Chanclerin and all other EU officials that egged on the thugs on the Maydan.

Interesting shade of rose in your glasses....
There was no action by "they" without Russian troops an hand on the ground "securing" the situation. And it was not "initiated: until those troops were in control. But again, not trying to convince you. The consequences are something Russia now bears and will do so for many many years. And it did not have to be.

Tugg


Nope. Sequence of events is important.

Your average Joe Crimean guy started forming self-defence units and militias and were mostly supported by local police when shit hit the fan in Kiev. Russian forces only came in after to prevent the Ukranians from using their armed forces in Crimea to put them down.

Well you are making up some things. Where in your sequence is Ukrainian armed forces engaging and attacking any citizens in Crimea? Also you leave out that Crimea was some 60% Russian by population and that an important (to Russia) naval base was there. The population were definitely "pro-Russia". But there had been no action whatsoever taken against them by any Ukraine armed forces for the very fact that Ukraine did not want to tip it that way. So Russia itself jumped in to tip it.

Sequence, events.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
tu204
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:23 pm

Tugger wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Interesting shade of rose in your glasses....
There was no action by "they" without Russian troops an hand on the ground "securing" the situation. And it was not "initiated: until those troops were in control. But again, not trying to convince you. The consequences are something Russia now bears and will do so for many many years. And it did not have to be.

Tugg


Nope. Sequence of events is important.

Your average Joe Crimean guy started forming self-defence units and militias and were mostly supported by local police when shit hit the fan in Kiev. Russian forces only came in after to prevent the Ukranians from using their armed forces in Crimea to put them down.

Well you are making up some things. Where in your sequence is Ukrainian armed forces engaging and attacking any citizens in Crimea? Also you leave out that Crimea was some 60% Russian by population and that an important (to Russia) naval base was there. The population were definitely "pro-Russia". But there had been no action whatsoever taken against them by any Ukraine armed forces for the very fact that Ukraine did not want to tip it that way. So Russia itself jumped in to tip it.

Sequence, events.

Tugg


I never said there were any cases of Ukranian forces attacking anyone in Crimea. That is because it was prevented by Russian Forces deploying after there was an uprising of Crimeans against Ukranian rule after it was overthrown in a coup.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:54 pm

tu204 wrote:
I never said there were any cases of Ukranian forces attacking anyone in Crimea. That is because it was prevented by Russian Forces deploying after there was an uprising of Crimeans against Ukranian rule after it was overthrown in a coup.

So the sequence of events is not important, meaningless then in your view? The sequence you stated was important that actually didn't exist. OK (and I knew that, everyone does).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Scipio
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:11 pm

Tomorrow, Ukrainian President Poroshenko will be in Baltimore to take delivery of two US Island-class patrol boats for the Ukrainian Navy. The US offered these boats already some time ago, but that the delivery is now finally materializing may have something to do with the situation in and around the Azov Sea.

It's not appeasement. It's about fixing the wrongs of the past.


Which past? In any version of the past, there were always some people who were wronged. The whole point is that one can fight until eternity to restore what different people have in mind as the "right" version of the past. That is why it was agreed after WWII to fix borders once and for all.

Crimea is a good example. It was inhabited by many different people in different pasts. Russians arrived to Crimea only very recently, in historical terms, and became a majority of the population only after Stalin deported the Tatars in 1944.

Which version of Crimea's past is the "right" one?

Going by history, the Crimean Tatars have a much more legitimate claim on Crimea than the Russians.
 
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:27 pm

By the way Tu204, I will point out that Putin himself has admitted that grabbing Crimea was all part of a plan and not a "response" as you are proposing. The documentary "Homeward bound", on state-run television (Rossiya-1) was very clear, Putin discussed his plan for Russia taking Crimea. In the show Putin says that during a meeting on how to rescue Yanukovych: "We ended at about seven in the morning. When we were parting, I said to my colleagues: we must start working on returning Crimea to Russia."

I think that is when the sequence started....

Tugg
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anrec80
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:33 am

Tugger wrote:
Well you are making up some things. Where in your sequence is Ukrainian armed forces engaging and attacking any citizens in Crimea? Also you leave out that Crimea was some 60% Russian by population and that an important (to Russia) naval base was there. The population were definitely "pro-Russia". But there had been no action whatsoever taken against them by any Ukraine armed forces for the very fact that Ukraine did not want to tip it that way. So Russia itself jumped in to tip it.

Sequence, events.

Tugg


What’s the deal - did someone really need to wait for that? What was going on in the Maidan? “Who isn’t jumping is a Moscal (Russian)!!!”. “Moscals on knives!!!”. Threats of “friendship trains” from Maidan. Wait for that to happen to satisfy someone? Nobody was going to wait for all that obsviosuly, and Crimeans made the right decision - self-organize to defend themselves and seek help. Latter events in Donbas and Odessa just showed they were right 100%, and Russia’s defense effort was absolutely correct and justified.
 
anrec80
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:35 am

Tugger wrote:
By the way Tu204, I will point out that Putin himself has admitted that grabbing Crimea was all part of a plan and not a "response" as you are proposing. The documentary "Homeward bound", on state-run television (Rossiya-1) was very clear, Putin discussed his plan for Russia taking Crimea. In the show Putin says that during a meeting on how to rescue Yanukovych: "We ended at about seven in the morning. When we were parting, I said to my colleagues: we must start working on returning Crimea to Russia."

I think that is when the sequence started....

Tugg


No. The “sequence” started in Kiev, when it became clear for everyone that Crimeans are in danger, and the plan to defend them is needed.
 
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:38 am

anrec80 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
By the way Tu204, I will point out that Putin himself has admitted that grabbing Crimea was all part of a plan and not a "response" as you are proposing. The documentary "Homeward bound", on state-run television (Rossiya-1) was very clear, Putin discussed his plan for Russia taking Crimea. In the show Putin says that during a meeting on how to rescue Yanukovych: "We ended at about seven in the morning. When we were parting, I said to my colleagues: we must start working on returning Crimea to Russia."

I think that is when the sequence started....

Tugg


No. The “sequence” started in Kiev, when it became clear for everyone that Crimeans are in danger, and the plan to defend them is needed.

Well yes, of course, I expect nothing different from you since it is obvious you can't actually argue against that it was planned and desired by Russians/Russophiles,

So yes, it was done in per-emptive defense of any actual threat or action. the important thing is that Crimea wa returned, And that is all that is important. And Russia suffers for it (except in your mind). I realize it's not complex.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
anrec80
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:20 am

Tugger wrote:
Well yes, of course, I expect nothing different from you since it is obvious you can't actually argue against that it was planned and desired by Russians/Russophiles,


So now you are saying that Maidan was planned and desired by Russians? Really? Yes, occasionally some dumb strainer-headed brainwashed creature from Maidan can say that, but I won’t expect so “deep” thought from anyone else.

Tugger wrote:
So yes, it was done in per-emptive defense of any actual threat or action. the important thing is that Crimea wa returned, And that is all that is important. And Russia suffers for it (except in your mind). I realize it's not complex.
Tugg


Response to buses with fighters is not “pre-emptive”. The thread is real and existing, and the response is timely and correct. And - Crimea being under Russia ensures that nobody will think of sending some more buses like this again. If Ukraine wants Crimea back - well, there is a way. They need to stop fighting, start rebuilding their country, improve economy, fight corruption, and present a solid case that Crimeans are better off coming back to Ukraine. Then there is a chance they agree. How does that sound? But that’s not realistic for Ukrainian government of course - they aren’t capable of anything constructive.
 
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:32 am

anrec80 wrote:
So now you are saying that Maidan was planned and desired by Russians? Really? Yes, occasionally some dumb strainer-headed brainwashed creature from Maidan can say that, but I won’t expect so “deep” thought from anyone else.

YES, of course! That is exactly what I am saying. Yes! you are safe in your fantasy and telling me what I mean so it fits your narative. Yup. I said that Russia and Putin planned the EuroMaiden. Wow, am I impressed at your ability and insight. Impressive.

anrec80 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
So yes, it was done in per-emptive defense of any actual threat or action. the important thing is that Crimea wa returned, And that is all that is important. And Russia suffers for it (except in your mind). I realize it's not complex.
Tugg


Response to buses with fighters is not “pre-emptive”. The thread is real and existing, and the response is timely and correct. And - Crimea being under Russia ensures that nobody will think of sending some more buses like this again. If Ukraine wants Crimea back - well, there is a way. They need to stop fighting, start rebuilding their country, improve economy, fight corruption, and present a solid case that Crimeans are better off coming back to Ukraine. Then there is a chance they agree. How does that sound? But that’s not realistic for Ukrainian government of course - they aren’t capable of anything constructive.

Ooooh buses, wow. Yes "buses with fighters".... really that's your comeback? OK.

And then you say that Crimea can return to Ukraine? Really? You are making that argument?

Crimea may (and I mean that in the "never, no way in hell" definition of "may") gain independence at best. At most. But only after Putin's regime and influence are exhausted, and then after the independence whatever administration was in power in Russia at that time will be overthrown or voted out. So it might be simpler if I say: Yeah sure...

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
anrec80
Posts: 1260
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:01 am

Tugger wrote:
YES, of course! That is exactly what I am saying. Yes! you are safe in your fantasy and telling me what I mean so it fits your narative. Yup. I said that Russia and Putin planned the EuroMaiden. Wow, am I impressed at your ability and insight. Impressive.


Well, if we go this route we will come to the fact that Lavrov was handing out cookies on Maidan. And you, wherever you are, sound like you aren’t forgotten. I have nothing to add.

Tugger wrote:
Ooooh buses, wow. Yes "buses with fighters".... really that's your comeback? OK.


This is not my comeback. This is the reality of a failed and disfunctonal state, which Ukraine was in Feb 2014 after the coup. What ways of doing things do criminals know (such as the ones who seize power by force)? Right, gangs. Official police structures weren’t recognizing them.
[/quote]

Tugger wrote:
Crimea may (and I mean that in the "never, no way in hell" definition of "may") gain independence at best. At most. But only after Putin's regime and influence are exhausted, and then after the independence whatever administration was in power in Russia at that time will be overthrown or voted out. So it might be simpler if I say: Yeah sure...

Tugg


And yes - if Ukraine exists by then (i.e. Crimea has somewhere to come back to), and people living there actually want back to Ukraine. They won’t want there now obviously.
 
anrec80
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:03 am

Once we are on Azov Sea thread, our Ukrainian ships waited their turn in line and also had Russian pilots onboard, as required, for navigation through Kerch strait.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:15 am

tommy1808 wrote:

you´ll find few territories taken by force and kept since WW II.

best regards
Thomas


Really there's large chunks of central Europe that were historically Prussian or German that now reside in other countries, parts that were taken by force. There's Kosovo taken from Serbia, there's East Timor taken from Indonesia, there's issues around Indonesia, Borneo and Malaysia. There's whole mess in the Middle East where Israel has taken by force and kept territory from surrounding countries, and there's a shit load of issues in Africa, to say there have been a few is looking at the world through rose tinted glasses.

You just have to accept that Crimea is back where it belongs as a part of Russia; what most keyboard warriors like you fail to understand is the vast majority of the Crimean population are ethnic Russians, Western powers could hold dozens of referendums, the results would all be the same.
 
tu204
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:18 am

Tugger wrote:
tu204 wrote:
I never said there were any cases of Ukranian forces attacking anyone in Crimea. That is because it was prevented by Russian Forces deploying after there was an uprising of Crimeans against Ukranian rule after it was overthrown in a coup.

So the sequence of events is not important, meaningless then in your view? The sequence you stated was important that actually didn't exist. OK (and I knew that, everyone does).

Tugg


Sure it does. There was a coup that overthrew the government in Kiev. One where nationalists had a big role in. That directly threatened the Crimeans with their views and political positions. Afterwards they formed self-defence forces, which were also supported by local police.

Only after that did Russian Forces move in to support them. The first several days they were on their own and there were several instances of thugs from Kiev trying to enter Simferopol and Sevastopol and being beaten up and sent back home.

So the sequence of events which I am trying to point out to you is: Coup in Kiev - threats towards Crimeans by nationalist thugs that just illegaly took power in Kiev - formation of self defence forces in Kiev - Russian Forces enter Crimea.

Now in hindsight it is pretty easy to see that this was absolutely the correct decision for Russian Forces to move into Crimea and support the Crimean self-defence forces. Had this not have happened, we would have had a mess much greater than in Donetsk.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Tugger
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:14 pm

tu204 wrote:
Now in hindsight it is pretty easy to see that this was absolutely the correct decision for Russian Forces to move into Crimea and support the Crimean self-defence forces. Had this not have happened, we would have had a mess much greater than in Donetsk.

No not likely. But of course you can (and do) make up any story you like. The better "correct decision" would perhaps have been to secure the safety of the base in Sevastopol, secure guarantees with the Ukraine government that was forming based on the popular will of the people, and help stabilize the nation as a whole. Russia would not have incurred international long term sanctions, Russia could have established good relations with an important neighbor and industrial partner, and Russia would be financially stronger with Putin seen as a responsible leader with stronger political position.

THAT would have been a much better "absolutely correct decision". What you state is after the fact nonsense justifying what occurred and is in place.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
anrec80
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:46 pm

Tugger wrote:

No not likely. But of course you can (and do) make up any story you like.



Given events in Odessa that followed shortly after - very likely, if not inevitable.

Tugger wrote:
The better "correct decision" would perhaps have been to secure the safety of the base in Sevastopol, secure guarantees with the Ukraine government that was forming based on the popular will of the people, and help stabilize the nation as a whole.


OK. So looks like we have a consensus on one important thing here - if people in some region feel in danger or threatened anyhow, they have full grounds to seek help, and an outside power does have a right, if not duty, to help them in their defense. And that their will is to be honored. And that this was the case in Crimea.

The issue with this decision is simple - whom to talk to in Kiev? There was no legitimate government to talk to. These people came to power as the result of an armed coup, which is a heavy crime. The main thing these people had in their control are criminal gangs, making them essentially not much more than gang leaders. I am not even talking they weren’t elected by anyone or representing anyone. And - even by then they have established track record of breaking agreements they themselves sign.

Let’s say you have gang violence eruption somewhere - say, a couple of gangs are trying to split a city’s streets. What do local authorities do? Do they send state’s governor to their leaders, negotiating which gang takes which districts? Asking them perhaps to please not kill locals? Do they even talk to them about anything? No - right? If local police can’t handle the situation on its own, they call FBI, National Guards - seek help. But don’t seek any guarantees. The only negotiations that can be had with their leaders - is by prosecutor, a deal with investigation to drop jail term from 25 to 15 years, or from life to 20. In exchange of all proof and detailed information of course.
 
Scipio
Topic Author
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:04 pm

During a ceremony today in Baltimore, the Ukrainian Navy took delivery of two former US Coast Guard Island-class patrol boats (named Drummond and Cushing in US Coast Guard service).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USCGC_Drummond_(WPB-1323)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USCGC_Cushing_(WPB-1321)


President Poroshenko participated in the ceremony.

Footage of the ceremony:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... 6ylAtYM36A
 
anrec80
Posts: 1260
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:24 am

Scipio wrote:
During a ceremony today in Baltimore, the Ukrainian Navy took delivery of two former US Coast Guard Island-class patrol boats (named Drummond and Cushing in US Coast Guard service).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USCGC_Drummond_(WPB-1323)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USCGC_Cushing_(WPB-1321)


President Poroshenko participated in the ceremony.

Footage of the ceremony:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... 6ylAtYM36A


Yeah, a pair of 20 year old things - to make sure they aren’t of any commercial value.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:07 am

anrec80 wrote:
Yeah, a pair of 20 year old things - to make sure they aren’t of any commercial value.

Kiwirob will tell you, 20 years is not that old for a navy ship.... 40 is about where they start to exit service with 50 being a general max (yes of course it is all dependent on the type of service they see).

Their are not "great ships" but they are good ships, and a good ship is what you need. Yes, of course the Russian navy could easily best them but they will be perfectly suited for and very capable in the Black or Azov Sea coastal patrol duties they are headed to.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
tu204
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:20 am

Tugger wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Now in hindsight it is pretty easy to see that this was absolutely the correct decision for Russian Forces to move into Crimea and support the Crimean self-defence forces. Had this not have happened, we would have had a mess much greater than in Donetsk.

No not likely. But of course you can (and do) make up any story you like. The better "correct decision" would perhaps have been to secure the safety of the base in Sevastopol, secure guarantees with the Ukraine government that was forming based on the popular will of the people, and help stabilize the nation as a whole. Russia would not have incurred international long term sanctions, Russia could have established good relations with an important neighbor and industrial partner, and Russia would be financially stronger with Putin seen as a responsible leader with stronger political position.

THAT would have been a much better "absolutely correct decision". What you state is after the fact nonsense justifying what occurred and is in place.

Tugg


I agree that that would have been a good decision with one big "if". If there was someone legitimate to talk to.

There was no legitimate government or person in Ukraine that was recognized by the Russian Federation untill they held elections half a year after the coup. Not by international or Russian law, but by Ukraine's own laws. They had no legitimate government to have any discussions with.

Also, the fact that the thugs in Kiev took power illegally, despite their own constitution pretty much gave the Crimeans the right to self-determination, just this fact put all of Ukraine's laws "on hold". Afterall, why should one group of thugs be allowed to violate their basic underlying laws, when another can't do the exact same thing?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tu204
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:24 am

This thread is kinda funny if you take into account the TS's glamorous words of those brave Ukranian marines that, according to him achieved such a feat - crossing from one sea into another under a Russian bridge against all odds.

He doesn't want to mention the fact those mentioned Ukrainian military vessels had Russian pilots onboard to traverse the Kerch Strait, as per Russian regulations for transit through this area, and this whole thing is a non-story.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
anrec80
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:49 am

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob will tell you, 20 years is not that old for a navy ship.... 40 is about where they start to exit service with 50 being a general max (yes of course it is all dependent on the type of service they see).

Their are not "great ships" but they are good ships, and a good ship is what you need. Yes, of course the Russian navy could easily best them but they will be perfectly suited for and very capable in the Black or Azov Sea coastal patrol duties they are headed to.

Tugg


What I wonder the most - do these ships have any commercial value? Last military aid of value Ukraine has received was all the way back in 2014, and within days the whole thing was sold to Syria (one of Assad’s generals). Since then, the only things they were receiving were of zero resale value. Except Javelins, but even those are supervised by American instructors in a Western Ukrainian base. So I am not surprised if in fact they got these ships because somewhere there is a customer for them already. Maybe even a customer for parts.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:10 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob will tell you, 20 years is not that old for a navy ship.... 40 is about where they start to exit service with 50 being a general max (yes of course it is all dependent on the type of service they see).

Their are not "great ships" but they are good ships, and a good ship is what you need. Yes, of course the Russian navy could easily best them but they will be perfectly suited for and very capable in the Black or Azov Sea coastal patrol duties they are headed to.

Tugg


What I wonder the most - do these ships have any commercial value? Last military aid of value Ukraine has received was all the way back in 2014, and within days the whole thing was sold to Syria (one of Assad’s generals). Since then, the only things they were receiving were of zero resale value. Except Javelins, but even those are supervised by American instructors in a Western Ukrainian base. So I am not surprised if in fact they got these ships because somewhere there is a customer for them already. Maybe even a customer for parts.

Likely not much "commercial" value. But then the Ukraine is now selling stuff directly to the US military:
https://www.albawaba.com/news/us-army-g ... le-1180816

It is basically a radar system based on tech that the Ukraine and Russia developed previously.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
alfa164
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:53 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Russia should give back Crimea, problem solved.

No, a plebiscite needs to be held. It is no secret that there is a Russian population in these areas that ended up in Ukraine due to political restructuring of the Soviet Union. The territory was never historically Ukrainian. If a lasting peace is to be implemented, the people must decide.
Woodrow Wilson insisted on this following the first world war, acknowledging that some territories would ultimately befall the enemy, a small sacrifice in order to gain lasting peace. Let neutral countries arrange it, keep NATO and CSTO members out of it.


So... would you agree, too, that the Chechens should be allowed a plebiscite to decide if they want to continue to be dominated by Russia? That would be a good place to start...
 
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Tugger
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:03 pm

alfa164 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Russia should give back Crimea, problem solved.

No, a plebiscite needs to be held. It is no secret that there is a Russian population in these areas that ended up in Ukraine due to political restructuring of the Soviet Union. The territory was never historically Ukrainian. If a lasting peace is to be implemented, the people must decide.
Woodrow Wilson insisted on this following the first world war, acknowledging that some territories would ultimately befall the enemy, a small sacrifice in order to gain lasting peace. Let neutral countries arrange it, keep NATO and CSTO members out of it.


So... would you agree, too, that the Chechens should be allowed a plebiscite to decide if they want to continue to be dominated by Russia? That would be a good place to start...

Yes, based on some of our Russian and Russophile posters here everyone should be able to declare independence from what ever nation they are currently in just by holding a vote! (This is not the same as a nation voting to change which federation, bloc, or union they will participate in.)

I think Russia shoud take the lead and demonstrate how this works and then other nations will have no choice but to follow their glorious example of free citizens. Just hold elections throughout Russia, border regions included and let the people decide if they wish to remain (hmmm Remainers... where have I heard this recently?), switch to another nation, or be independent. It would be an amazing example of Russian values and ideals.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
VSMUT
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:08 pm

alfa164 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Russia should give back Crimea, problem solved.

No, a plebiscite needs to be held. It is no secret that there is a Russian population in these areas that ended up in Ukraine due to political restructuring of the Soviet Union. The territory was never historically Ukrainian. If a lasting peace is to be implemented, the people must decide.
Woodrow Wilson insisted on this following the first world war, acknowledging that some territories would ultimately befall the enemy, a small sacrifice in order to gain lasting peace. Let neutral countries arrange it, keep NATO and CSTO members out of it.


So... would you agree, too, that the Chechens should be allowed a plebiscite to decide if they want to continue to be dominated by Russia? That would be a good place to start...


Absolutely. If the Chechens want independence, they deserve a referendum.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:14 pm

VSMUT wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
No, a plebiscite needs to be held. It is no secret that there is a Russian population in these areas that ended up in Ukraine due to political restructuring of the Soviet Union. The territory was never historically Ukrainian. If a lasting peace is to be implemented, the people must decide.
Woodrow Wilson insisted on this following the first world war, acknowledging that some territories would ultimately befall the enemy, a small sacrifice in order to gain lasting peace. Let neutral countries arrange it, keep NATO and CSTO members out of it.


So... would you agree, too, that the Chechens should be allowed a plebiscite to decide if they want to continue to be dominated by Russia? That would be a good place to start...


Absolutely. If the Chechens want independence, they deserve a referendum.

But remember, it doesn't have to be the whole of Chechnya, the region's within there must also be allowed to have a say and declare their region's independence or new affiliation.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
petertenthije
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:56 pm

I have just done a vote amongst the home-owners assiciation. We have decided that our apartment building is no longer part of the Netherlands.

You may now adress me as king Peter. If you make me a decent offer we are willing to are accept joining your country/union/commonwealth etc.
Attamottamotta!
 
alfa164
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:15 am

tu204 wrote:
There was a coup that overthrew the government in Kiev. One where nationalists had a big role in. That directly threatened the Crimeans with their views and political positions. Afterwards they formed self-defence forces, which were also supported by local police.
Only after that did Russian Forces move in to support them. The first several days they were on their own and there were several instances of thugs from Kiev trying to enter Simferopol and Sevastopol and being beaten up and sent back home.
So the sequence of events which I am trying to point out to you is: Coup in Kiev - threats towards Crimeans by nationalist thugs that just illegaly took power in Kiev - formation of self defence forces in Kiev - Russian Forces enter Crimea.


The Russian trolls and apologists are trying to rewrite history again. There was no "coup" in Kiev; the government was the same elected government that existed under Yanukovych. And Yanukovych himself wasn't "overthrown"; he was cast adrift by his own allies. The Western officials were just as surprised by the meltdown as anyone else.

You should remember that it was Yanukovych first agreed to sign a trade deal with the European Union but then, under heavy pressure from Moscow, abruptly turned away from that long-planned pact. When his own citizens went to Maidan Square protest that about-face, he answered their concerns with gunfire. It was then that his own party - and his own supporters in Parliament - abandoned him. Parliament remained intact; the government didn't change. Ukraine continued to have a legal government. Only the President - having been exposed as a puppet of Putin - ran away with his tail between his legs. In the disarray - and seeing his crony exiled from Ukraine - Putin seized an opportunity to forcibly steal Crimea.

I realize that you will never see the truth on Russian State "News", so you will continue to perpetuate this drivel... that is only for propaganda, to assure the masses that all is right and good in Mother Russia. I also realize that many Russian cronies - and you may be among them - dream of a return to the days when Russia was the great power of the Soviet Union. You may wish all those territories who chose self-government would return to such a state... but they won't. You may send "little green men" to seize portions of other sovereign countries, but the rest of the world will react - as it has - with disdain.

Continuing to spread distortions - and outright lies - may earn the Russian trolls a few rubles in St. Petersburg, but as those rubles become more and more worthless, even the paid propagandists may be searching for other answers.

tu204 wrote:
Now in hindsight it is pretty easy to see that this was absolutely the correct decision for Russian Forces to move into Crimea and support the Crimean self-defence forces. Had this not have happened, we would have had a mess much greater than in Donetsk.


Donetsk would not be such a "mess" if the Russian invaders and agitators would simply go home.
 
anrec80
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:33 am

Tugger wrote:
Likely not much "commercial" value. But then the Ukraine is now selling stuff directly to the US military:
https://www.albawaba.com/news/us-army-g ... le-1180816

It is basically a radar system based on tech that the Ukraine and Russia developed previously.

Tugg


Ukraine hasn't shown to be choosy when it comes to arms trade partners and customers. They've traded with Assad's government (even with American aid and after the civil war started), with South Sudan, with ISIS (there are videos where they supplied ISIS broken air defense systems). Anyone who pays them anything. If the USA military pays - why not trade with them?
 
anrec80
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Re: Struggle for the Azov Sea

Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:13 am

alfa164 wrote:
The Russian trolls and apologists are trying to rewrite history again. There was no "coup" in Kiev; the government was the same elected government that existed under Yanukovych. And Yanukovych himself wasn't "overthrown"; he was cast adrift by his own allies. The Western officials were just as surprised by the meltdown as anyone else.


There is no "re-writing history". There was exactly an armed coup in Kiev. Nobody argues with this. Both Obama and Biden later confirmed - "we brokered the transfer of power". Any power transfer outside of constitution (such as legitimate impeachment, which never took place, death/murder of the President, or re-election) - is a coup, or an illegal seizure of power. This is exactly what happened. The government was not the same as was legitimately appointed by Parliament, it was formed from the crowd on Maidan. This has nothing to do with democratic legitimate process. In order for your post to make sense, new Kiev thugs should have at least bothered to kill the guy.

alfa164 wrote:
Only the President - having been exposed as a puppet of Putin - ran away with his tail between his legs.


There is nothing called "ran away" in legislature - any Constitution clearly defines when an acting President can be removed from power, and what is the process. The process in Ukraine was never followed. Furthermore, Yanukovich still carries the title of the "President" - something all former Presidents are entitled to, unless they were impeached.

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