sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:15 am

Richard28 wrote:
oh and,

- Fish. A total obsession with Fish - a sector that represents only 0.5% of GDP somehow being exaggerated as being more important than services sector at 80% of GDP.



That's because fish swim in waters, and Britannia rules the waves... or so it clearly still thinks.

But no worries: the EU has already lined up the next blow to the set of "Great British illusions" in their political statement on the future economic framework between the EU and the UK.

The UK exports quite a lot of farmed fish to the EU, currently tariff free of course as the UK is in the SM.
Once out, these exports are going to be subject to a 13% tarrif, according to the Scottish Salmon Producers Organisation.
The EU has clearly linked future tarrif free market access of ALL British seafood to the continued access of EU vessels to UK waters, something the UK has immediately ruled out, but it seems TM missed the sense for detail the EU trade negotiators clearly didn't: ALL seafood means both that caught at sea, as well as that farmed of course, and guess what? Whereas the fishing communities along the British coast are going to be against any such trade off, the SSPO and other industrial fish farms are obviously going to be pushing very hard for it... and so another domestic infight can soon start, with the EU simply leaning back and looking at how the UK tears itself further up while negotiating from a position of strength.
The upcoming trade negotiations are going to be so much fun, just as expected.
ROTFL.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:20 am

Richard28 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
It sounds much like 1939 with the Germans once again intent of running Europe.


Europe is run by its member states and by elected MP's.

One persons view or one country's view does not on its own determine the future of the EU.

And if you leave it, you lose all say in it......


What is right for Europe might not be right for its member states. MEP’s may pass laws that no individual has an opportunity to vote for. Nations like France and Germany have more MEP’s than nations like Slovakia and Latvia, yet they could be forced to act despite it not being in their national interests.

The democracy that is the EU.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:24 am

You clearly do not understand how the EU works: the EP alone can not vote something into law, it needs to be approved by national governments too.
The EU effectively has a 2 chamber set up: the EP is just the elected lower chamber, with the upper chamber being the council of ministers.
Read up, because the more you speak up, the more you ridicule yourself.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:28 am

sabenapilot wrote:
You clearly do not understand how the EU works: the EP alone can not vote something into law, it needs to be approved by national governments too.
The EU effectively has a 2 chamber set up: the EP is just the elected lower chamber, with the upper chamber being the council of ministers.
Read up, because the more you speak up, the more you ridicule yourself.


So hypothetical question.

All EU countries bar Poland wish to ban apples from the EU. All MEP’s bar Polish ones support this.

Can Poland continue to produce and export apples to outside the EU?
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:46 am

seahawk wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
You clearly do not understand how the EU works: the EP alone can not vote something into law, it needs to be approved by national governments too.
The EU effectively has a 2 chamber set up: the EP is just the elected lower chamber, with the upper chamber being the council of ministers.
Read up, because the more you speak up, the more you ridicule yourself.


So hypothetical question.

All EU countries bar Poland wish to ban apples from the EU. All MEP’s bar Polish ones support this.

Can Poland continue to produce and export apples to outside the EU?


http://ecgassociation.eu/Activities/EU- ... -in-the-EU


Thanks. I didn’t think the EU cheerleaders would reply to my question.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:51 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
Richard28 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
It sounds much like 1939 with the Germans once again intent of running Europe.


Europe is run by its member states and by elected MP's.

One persons view or one country's view does not on its own determine the future of the EU.

And if you leave it, you lose all say in it......


What is right for Europe might not be right for its member states. MEP’s may pass laws that no individual has an opportunity to vote for. Nations like France and Germany have more MEP’s than nations like Slovakia and Latvia, yet they could be forced to act despite it not being in their national interests.

The democracy that is the EU.


Why do you stick to this kind of arguments?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:52 am

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Richard28 wrote:

Europe is run by its member states and by elected MP's.

One persons view or one country's view does not on its own determine the future of the EU.

And if you leave it, you lose all say in it......


What is right for Europe might not be right for its member states. MEP’s may pass laws that no individual has an opportunity to vote for. Nations like France and Germany have more MEP’s than nations like Slovakia and Latvia, yet they could be forced to act despite it not being in their national interests.

The democracy that is the EU.


Why do you stick to this kind of arguments?


Look at my hypothetical question about apples. What is the answer?
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:07 pm

Nobody wants to "ban apples from the EU" like you say.
Your hypothetical question about apples is of the same calibre as the Bojo nonsense about the EU forbiding straight bananas...
Grow up.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:11 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Nobody wants to "ban apples from the EU" like you say.
Your hypothetical question about apples is of the same calibre as the Bojo nonsense about the EU forbiding straight bananas...
Grow up.


Of course no one wants to ban apples. Do you know what the English word ‘hypothetical’ means?

Maybe your spell check is not working.

Nevertheless you have completely chosen to ignore my point about whether member states can be forced to act against their will by the EU.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:23 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Nobody wants to "ban apples from the EU" like you say.
Your hypothetical question about apples is of the same calibre as the Bojo nonsense about the EU forbiding straight bananas...
Grow up.


Of course no one wants to ban apples. Do you know what the English word ‘hypothetical’ means?

Maybe your spell check is not working.

Nevertheless you have completely chosen to ignore my point about whether member states can be forced to act against their will by the EU.


It is a futile question. I have answered it before, I believe. If you want to act in a larger context then two, you need to compromise. Sometimes there are things that are against your interest, but you do them anyway because of other times you are way ahead. This is the same with the EU. All nations are better off because of it, some area's they don't and those are well compensated on other area's. This is the same mechanism on smaller scales: your hometown versus England, has nothing been decided in Westminster which was against the interest of your hometown? Or your neighborhood versus your city? Or your street versus your neighborhood? Or you person versus your family? That's why it is a leading and futile question.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:24 pm

A spell check does not explain words, it corrects typos.;)

To answer your hypothetical question on Polish independence: you think Poland would be better off outside of the cover of protection of Europe, in the face of its eastern neighbour, trading its apples freely and globally? :sarcastic:

It's not because you prefer fish over independence, that others would prefer apples over independence.
As I've already pointed out above, ironically the UK won't even win the fishery rights back, your government is 'freely' going to trade them for EU market access. It will just have lost control over the rules of that market... great outcome, isn't it?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... may-brexit

Keep on digging: the more you try, the deeper you dig the hole for yourself...
Last edited by sabenapilot on Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:27 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:

So hypothetical question.

All EU countries bar Poland wish to ban apples from the EU. All MEP’s bar Polish ones support this.

Can Poland continue to produce and export apples to outside the EU?


That's the basic of any democracy no ? Look at UK, Scottish didn't want to leave but they have to follow the UK decision...
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:12 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Nobody wants to "ban apples from the EU" like you say.
Your hypothetical question about apples is of the same calibre as the Bojo nonsense about the EU forbiding straight bananas...
Grow up.


Of course no one wants to ban apples. Do you know what the English word ‘hypothetical’ means?

Maybe your spell check is not working.

Nevertheless you have completely chosen to ignore my point about whether member states can be forced to act against their will by the EU.


It is a futile question. I have answered it before, I believe. If you want to act in a larger context then two, you need to compromise. Sometimes there are things that are against your interest, but you do them anyway because of other times you are way ahead. This is the same with the EU. All nations are better off because of it, some area's they don't and those are well compensated on other area's. This is the same mechanism on smaller scales: your hometown versus England, has nothing been decided in Westminster which was against the interest of your hometown? Or your neighborhood versus your city? Or your street versus your neighborhood? Or you person versus your family? That's why it is a leading and futile question.


It is not really futile. Just proves a point. And I do not believe for one minute that individual national interests would not be compromised by ones own country.
 
Bostrom
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:30 pm

Richard28 wrote:
There will be historical studies on this no doubt....!

For me it is a combination of:

- The Tory divide over Europe
- Tories being irrationally scared of UKIP, despite them having only 1 MP at the time (who defected from the Tories), having the referendum in the first place
- A referendum that allowed the Leave campaign to conflate both hard and soft Brexits into one vote
- A Tory leader who set down Red Lines as her interpretation of the result, without any evidence or proven mandate
- A Tory Leader who delayed and fudged and delayed some more in a failed attempt to win over MP's from both sides of the argument
- A Press who were happy to pass as journalism just "hearing both sides" of an argument, rather than assessing truths, contradictions and hypocrisy.
- £350 million painted on a red bus
- Dodgy analytics, Dodgy money and some criminality
- Boris Johnson who supported the Single Market for years, suddenly turning hard Brexiter for reasons of personal gain
- An opposition who have a leader with no coherent strategy and who have been happy to sit on the sidelines

I've probably missed a few, but they are my main ones.


From an EU27 point of view I'd like add:

- "Newspapers" like the Daily Mail, The Sun, and others printing lie after lie about the EU.
- The First past the post-system, resulting in a divided parliament where there is little point in voting for a 3rd party. (Like voting Libdem if you are a remainer when the two major parties both support leave.)
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:22 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Of course no one wants to ban apples. Do you know what the English word ‘hypothetical’ means?

Maybe your spell check is not working.

Nevertheless you have completely chosen to ignore my point about whether member states can be forced to act against their will by the EU.


It is a futile question. I have answered it before, I believe. If you want to act in a larger context then two, you need to compromise. Sometimes there are things that are against your interest, but you do them anyway because of other times you are way ahead. This is the same with the EU. All nations are better off because of it, some area's they don't and those are well compensated on other area's. This is the same mechanism on smaller scales: your hometown versus England, has nothing been decided in Westminster which was against the interest of your hometown? Or your neighborhood versus your city? Or your street versus your neighborhood? Or you person versus your family? That's why it is a leading and futile question.


It is not really futile. Just proves a point. And I do not believe for one minute that individual national interests would not be compromised by ones own country.


So you believe that each and every person should be an island and only pursue its own interest? Or do you believe that a group is better and therefore you should compromise at certain aspects?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:35 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

It is a futile question. I have answered it before, I believe. If you want to act in a larger context then two, you need to compromise. Sometimes there are things that are against your interest, but you do them anyway because of other times you are way ahead. This is the same with the EU. All nations are better off because of it, some area's they don't and those are well compensated on other area's. This is the same mechanism on smaller scales: your hometown versus England, has nothing been decided in Westminster which was against the interest of your hometown? Or your neighborhood versus your city? Or your street versus your neighborhood? Or you person versus your family? That's why it is a leading and futile question.


It is not really futile. Just proves a point. And I do not believe for one minute that individual national interests would not be compromised by ones own country.


So you believe that each and every person should be an island and only pursue its own interest? Or do you believe that a group is better and therefore you should compromise at certain aspects?


No I believe in individual nation states.

Culturally across Europe we are generally uniquely different.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:42 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

It is not really futile. Just proves a point. And I do not believe for one minute that individual national interests would not be compromised by ones own country.


So you believe that each and every person should be an island and only pursue its own interest? Or do you believe that a group is better and therefore you should compromise at certain aspects?


No I believe in individual nation states.

Culturally across Europe we are generally uniquely different.


If you live in London, then you probably have more in common with someone in Madrid, Rome or Amsterdam, than in rural good old England. Frieland and Limburg are quite different, even in Holland and the Netherlands functions fine.
And even if you do not accept that, you have to accept that Scotland and England are quite different. So what is the right size to interact with, depends on the subject. Some subjects are better dealt with at the local or national level and some at European and even world level.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:18 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

So you believe that each and every person should be an island and only pursue its own interest? Or do you believe that a group is better and therefore you should compromise at certain aspects?


No I believe in individual nation states.

Culturally across Europe we are generally uniquely different.


If you live in London, then you probably have more in common with someone in Madrid, Rome or Amsterdam, than in rural good old England. Frieland and Limburg are quite different, even in Holland and the Netherlands functions fine.
And even if you do not accept that, you have to accept that Scotland and England are quite different. So what is the right size to interact with, depends on the subject. Some subjects are better dealt with at the local or national level and some at European and even world level.


I don’t have to accept anything. Scotlanf and England have far more in common than England and Europe.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:47 pm

Scotland has historically far less in common with England than Ireland has: the first is not sovereign, the second is however.
Which if the two is not at its rightful place in the league of 'sovereign nations'?
So according to your narrowminded idea, only culturally (I suppose you'd limit it even to linguistic) identical nations could work closely together then?
Long live the British commonwealth v2.0, anyone? The French speaking Canadians, you probably just forget about for starters then, right?

Dutchy is right,
Depending the subject, people best deal with complicated subjects at a local, regional, national, European or even global level: just ask the Swiss or Belgians how a truly devolved confederation works and how the different levels of their government(s) each hold a piece of the total sovereignty which rests very much with the people they represent, not the single nationstate itself.
As said before: the concept of nationstates died already last century (ironically the last man defending it had a funny moustache, which I'm sure you'll appreciate me mentioning here, given how find you are of Nazi comparisons) but not in your mind it seems.
Last edited by sabenapilot on Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:05 pm, edited 5 times in total.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:49 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
So hypothetical question.

All EU countries bar Poland wish to ban apples from the EU. All MEP’s bar Polish ones support this.

Can Poland continue to produce and export apples to outside the EU?


Yes. The polish government would go to the ECJ, show that Apple's are ok under EU food regulations intended goals to provide safe, nutritious food & animal feed,
high standards of animal health & welfare & plant protection and clear information on the origin, content/labelling & use of food, and argue that the ban impedes their businesses in doing businesses in the single market without justification, and it would lift the ban. Even if polish MEP voted for it.

You have to come up with a better hypothetical I am afraid.

And guess what, the answer will always be that the EU can't force sh*t on its members, because there is article 50, specifically put in the treaties to make sure that no country can be forced into anything if they don't want to.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:39 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Nobody wants to "ban apples from the EU" like you say.
Your hypothetical question about apples is of the same calibre as the Bojo nonsense about the EU forbiding straight bananas...
Grow up.


Of course no one wants to ban apples. Do you know what the English word ‘hypothetical’ means?

Maybe your spell check is not working.

Nevertheless you have completely chosen to ignore my point about whether member states can be forced to act against their will by the EU.


Can Scotland be forced to act against its will by Westminster ?

Clearly yes.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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speedygonzales
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:41 pm

Snus is banned in all of EU except Denmark and Sweden, so there is some precedence.
Ignorance kills. :tombstone:
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:45 pm

News in the John Hayes MP has just been granted a knighthood by 10 Downing Street.

In unrelated news, John Hayes is a eurosceptic who has not yet come out against Theresa Mays "deal"
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:27 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
As said before: the concept of nationstates died already last century


No.

Aesma wrote:

Can Scotland be forced to act against its will by Westminster ?


Depends on if the area is one where Westminster retains competence or if it's an area devolved to the Scottish government (like how some areas of the EU are the exclusive competence of the Union, some are shared and some remain the competence of member states).
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:48 pm

Aesma wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Nobody wants to "ban apples from the EU" like you say.
Your hypothetical question about apples is of the same calibre as the Bojo nonsense about the EU forbiding straight bananas...
Grow up.


Of course no one wants to ban apples. Do you know what the English word ‘hypothetical’ means?

Maybe your spell check is not working.

Nevertheless you have completely chosen to ignore my point about whether member states can be forced to act against their will by the EU.


Can Scotland be forced to act against its will by Westminster ?

Clearly yes.


Scotland joined the EEC with the rest of the UK and Scotland, who rejected independence, will leave the EU.
 
bananaboy
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:20 pm

It's as if some Brexiteers can't accept that Germany is doing well after losing the wars; that a country that was defeated is doing better than the victor. The fact that Germany is a major player in Europe feels like Germany has won and got the final revenge; hence why toilet papers like The Express (and formerly the Mail) love to stoke those subconscious prejudices. There has to be a seige mentality created. An enemy. Them and us. Was a constant sub-context from the crooked Leave campaign.

Very sad what drives some people.

Mark
All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:32 pm

Richard28 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
How on earth did a country as coolheaded as the UK ever end up in such a dire situation?


There will be historical studies on this no doubt....!

For me it is a combination of:

- The Tory divide over Europe
- Tories being irrationally scared of UKIP, despite them having only 1 MP at the time (who defected from the Tories), having the referendum in the first place
- A referendum that allowed the Leave campaign to conflate both hard and soft Brexits into one vote
- A Tory leader who set down Red Lines as her interpretation of the result, without any evidence or proven mandate
- A Tory Leader who delayed and fudged and delayed some more in a failed attempt to win over MP's from both sides of the argument
- A Press who were happy to pass as journalism just "hearing both sides" of an argument, rather than assessing truths, contradictions and hypocrisy.
- £350 million painted on a red bus
- Dodgy analytics, Dodgy money and some criminality
- Boris Johnson who supported the Single Market for years, suddenly turning hard Brexiter for reasons of personal gain
- An opposition who have a leader with no coherent strategy and who have been happy to sit on the sidelines

I've probably missed a few, but they are my main ones.


I think you miss the most important one: great underestimation of the hatred against the establishment by some people. In a documentary (American Dharma) Steve Bannon says it correctly, both Brexit vote and the election of Trump are highly connected. Both are the result of "working class" people feeling unheard and thus make a statement with their vote. The "establishment" doesn't (or doesn't want to) understand this. Hence why people like Boris Johnson get a platform (as he does understand this).
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:52 pm

bananaboy wrote:
It's as if some Brexiteers can't accept that Germany is doing well after losing the wars; that a country that was defeated is doing better than the victor. The fact that Germany is a major player in Europe feels like Germany has won and got the final revenge; hence why toilet papers like The Express (and formerly the Mail) love to stoke those subconscious prejudices. There has to be a seige mentality created. An enemy. Them and us. Was a constant sub-context from the crooked Leave campaign.

Very sad what drives some people.

Mark


This is so so true.

The UK could have and should have made a tremendous ally in Germany. We are/were two of the biggest economies and arguably the most similar in many regards.

Instead WW2 prejudices and tabloid bulls@@t saw that off and we were always considered against each other rather than working for the same outcomes.

It is so so sad. An alliance with Germany could have achieved so so much for each of us and for the EU as a whole.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:02 pm

LJ wrote:
I think you miss the most important one: great underestimation of the hatred against the establishment by some people. In a documentary (American Dharma) Steve Bannon says it correctly, both Brexit vote and the election of Trump are highly connected. Both are the result of "working class" people feeling unheard and thus make a statement with their vote. The "establishment" doesn't (or doesn't want to) understand this. Hence why people like Boris Johnson get a platform (as he does understand this).


I sense at the outset there was a degree of anti establishment although some of that was also anti Tory and/or anti David Cameron.

As things have turned out however it was smoke and mirrors - the establishment is very much in charge of the leave campaign, just look at the recent ‘global britain’ Press conference, look at the ERG, look at people like Ian Duncan-Smith, Jacob Rees-Mogg, John Redwood etc

It is the other way around... people have been fooled.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:23 pm

Richard28 wrote:
LJ wrote:
I think you miss the most important one: great underestimation of the hatred against the establishment by some people. In a documentary (American Dharma) Steve Bannon says it correctly, both Brexit vote and the election of Trump are highly connected. Both are the result of "working class" people feeling unheard and thus make a statement with their vote. The "establishment" doesn't (or doesn't want to) understand this. Hence why people like Boris Johnson get a platform (as he does understand this).


I sense at the outset there was a degree of anti establishment although some of that was also anti Tory and/or anti David Cameron.

As things have turned out however it was smoke and mirrors - the establishment is very much in charge of the leave campaign, just look at the recent ‘global britain’ Press conference, look at the ERG, look at people like Ian Duncan-Smith, Jacob Rees-Mogg, John Redwood etc

It is the other way around... people have been fooled.


And Trump has done great for the rich and corporations...
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:46 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
Scotland joined the EEC with the rest of the UK and Scotland, who rejected independence, will leave the EU.

Scottish voters were betrayed because their anti-independence vote was predicated on that being the only way to preserve their EU membership (because the rest of the UK could have blocked an independent Scotland's accession to the EU) and then after securing that vote England yanked exactly that rug out from under Scotland with the Brexit vote.

UK politics is a stunning crapshow of internal distrust, resentment and lack of integrity.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:01 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
You clearly do not understand how the EU works: the EP alone can not vote something into law, it needs to be approved by national governments too.
The EU effectively has a 2 chamber set up: the EP is just the elected lower chamber, with the upper chamber being the council of ministers.
Read up, because the more you speak up, the more you ridicule yourself.


So hypothetical question.

All EU countries bar Poland wish to ban apples from the EU. All MEP’s bar Polish ones support this.

Can Poland continue to produce and export apples to outside the EU?

Pretty silly strawman.

1. Wouldn't happen.

2. Most likely couldn't even happen either because it would violate multiple foundations of the EU and Poland could make its case to exactly that ECJ leavers hate so much and most likely win it in case a majority would even consider such a harebrained idea.

3. Even though Council majority voting is now nominally happening in many cases, actually there is a lot of effort put in to keep even most of those votes unanimous if at all possible, even retracting proposals if a unanimous vote couldn't be secured.

4. The EU is based on constructive cooperation. Trying to override a country for silly nonsense like that is not remotely on the cards. It takes very serious issues such as violations of foundational principles of democracy and of the rule of law to get a member country into hot water with the other members.

5. If a proposal actually survives scrutiny by the Council and by the Commission, it goes to the Parliament and it is actually the exception rather than the rule that voting there actually goes along national boundaries as you're imagining it. Very much like welsh, english, scottish and northern irish tory MPs usually vote alongside each other against the opposition members from those same UK regions EP votes usually see votes aligned much more along faction boundaries regardless of which member country the respective MEPs were coming from. And in your silly strawman example there would be a broad front against that nonsense across the conservative, socialist, liberal, green and probable other factions with only a few trolls and cranks actually voting for it, and nationality just wouldn't matter.

You really need to learn more about the European Union, if just to understand where and how your rules are made, now without any influence of your own country according to your own referendum vote.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:17 am

Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Scotland joined the EEC with the rest of the UK and Scotland, who rejected independence, will leave the EU.

Scottish voters were betrayed because their anti-independence vote was predicated on that being the only way to preserve their EU membership (because the rest of the UK could have blocked an independent Scotland's accession to the EU) and then after securing that vote England yanked exactly that rug out from under Scotland with the Brexit vote.

UK politics is a stunning crapshow of internal distrust, resentment and lack of integrity.


Best time anyone decides independence from them UK the EU will probably be open to an accelerated admission.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 330
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:39 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Scotland joined the EEC with the rest of the UK and Scotland, who rejected independence, will leave the EU.

Scottish voters were betrayed because their anti-independence vote was predicated on that being the only way to preserve their EU membership (because the rest of the UK could have blocked an independent Scotland's accession to the EU) and then after securing that vote England yanked exactly that rug out from under Scotland with the Brexit vote.

UK politics is a stunning crapshow of internal distrust, resentment and lack of integrity.


Best time anyone decides independence from them UK the EU will probably be open to an accelerated admission.

Best regards
Thomas


Polls show Scots still want to remain in the UK despite Brexit.
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2530
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:41 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Polls show Scots still want to remain in the UK despite Brexit.


indeed they do.

Polls also show the UK wants a peoples vote and also want to stay in the EU.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 330
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:52 pm

Richard28 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Polls show Scots still want to remain in the UK despite Brexit.


indeed they do.

Polls also show the UK wants a peoples vote and also want to stay in the EU.


We have already had a peoples vote.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 7025
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:03 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Richard28 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Polls show Scots still want to remain in the UK despite Brexit.


indeed they do.

Polls also show the UK wants a peoples vote and also want to stay in the EU.


We have already had a peoples vote.


yup: 5 June 1975
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 330
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:22 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Richard28 wrote:

indeed they do.

Polls also show the UK wants a peoples vote and also want to stay in the EU.


We have already had a peoples vote.


yup: 5 June 1975


And 2016.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 10630
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:28 pm

I wasn't even talking about Scotland in the EU. I meant in general. Outside of devolved powers of course, Westminster decides for Scotland. For example if Scotland didn't want to go to war in Iraq, too bad, they were forced to go anyway.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 7025
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:41 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

We have already had a peoples vote.


yup: 5 June 1975


And 2016.


Indeed, so you accept the concept of a revote..... ;)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 330
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:54 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

yup: 5 June 1975


And 2016.


Indeed, so you accept the concept of a revote..... ;)


Absolutely. 39 years time we can look to vote again if we so wish
 
JJJ
Posts: 3059
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:01 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
You clearly do not understand how the EU works: the EP alone can not vote something into law, it needs to be approved by national governments too.
The EU effectively has a 2 chamber set up: the EP is just the elected lower chamber, with the upper chamber being the council of ministers.
Read up, because the more you speak up, the more you ridicule yourself.


So hypothetical question.

All EU countries bar Poland wish to ban apples from the EU. All MEP’s bar Polish ones support this.

Can Poland continue to produce and export apples to outside the EU?


Can't tell for apples but my agrochemical company manufactures pesticides which aren't allowed in Europe for sale in third countries (Africa, Latin America, even the US).
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 7025
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:02 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

And 2016.


Indeed, so you accept the concept of a revote..... ;)


Absolutely. 39 years time we can look to vote again if we so wish


So 39 years is somehow the magic number?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 330
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:06 pm

Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Indeed, so you accept the concept of a revote..... ;)


Absolutely. 39 years time we can look to vote again if we so wish


So 39 years is somehow the magic number?


Yes. It was 41 years between the last two so happy to have it 41 years between votes.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 7025
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:08 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Absolutely. 39 years time we can look to vote again if we so wish


So 39 years is somehow the magic number?


Yes. It was 41 years between the last two so happy to have it 41 years between votes.


Arbitrary.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2681
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:17 pm

Meanwhile, TM has just signed Gibraltar away too, agreeing at the eleventh hour to the point of view held by the EU that Spain has a veto on whether any future deal between the UK and the EU should also apply to the contested territory.

The UK at first pretended Gibraltar is an integral part of the UK and thus automatically included in the text, but TM has now accepted a seperate deal with the EU will be needed, over which Spain has a veto.

The Spanish PM has already said that “Once the UK has left the EU, Gibraltar’s political, legal and even geographic relationship with the EU will go through Spain".

Gibraltar reacted furiously, but is now at risk of simply crashing out of the EU completely upon Brexit, even if the rest of the UK manages to secure a final deal, unless it opens up bilateral negotiations with Spain.

Another sign of the position of strength the UK is negotiating from from, surely? ;)
 
A3801000
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:48 pm

Agreement will be signed tomorrow.
How big are the chances it goes through british parliament? Nil? Zilch? Zero?
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 832
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:00 pm

Spain veto is normal if you remember that the UK blackmailed Spain about Gibraltar when Spain wanted to join the EU. In that case, Karma is a sweet bitch.
 
A3801000
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:20 pm

DUP leader Arlene Foster says the choice over Brexit is "not between this deal and no deal" and warned the only option is "to look beyond this current draft withdrawal agreement and work in the time ahead for an improved outcome"

Can somebody please wake her up?
 
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Richard28
Posts: 2530
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

Re: Brexit part 4: Until the last Tory Standing

Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:29 pm

Gibraltar must now be the final nail in the coffin of her deal ever possibly passing through Parliament....?

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