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kaitak
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Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:00 pm

Barely a year after failing to have Trans people ejected from the media (but certainly making their service and recruitment harder), Trump's administration wants to define Trans people out of existence.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... 03ba10c430

What has religion got to do with it? Lots ... the Trans community has been a popular target for religions, across the board; last year, leaders from across the religious spectrum signed a letter which effectively said that Transgender, as a concept, didn't actually exist; they've been pushing for action against the Trans community for some time and this looks like a big victory. And, backed by a conservative majority in the Supreme Court, they could well get their way. Protections granted under the Obama administration have gone by the wayside and the vice is gradually been tightened; the proposed law would make it possible for a number of government departments to discriminate against Trans people.

Does it matter? They're only 1% of the population (at best); surely, no one is going to notice. They are (as some might say) an inconvenience, certainly a big obstacle to administration, requiring exceptions here and rights there; much better if they didn't exist - and though the state can't (as much as it might want to) eradicate them, it can target them administratively.

It matters because there is a reason why we have separation of Church and State; it's there because the state exists for the good of the people, not for the good of any religion; nor indeed do the people exist to serve the needs/prejudices of any religion. That, of course, is the bedrock of a free society; conservatives regard this as liberal nonsense, but what's the origin of the word "free" or "freedom" ... liber/liberare.

Am I being hysterical here? Possibly, but once this comes to pass (if indeed it does), what's the next step? Bit by bit, other state organisations and apparatus can follow and if the state can do it, so can companies, schools, universities, etc.

This is something that needs to be fought.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:28 pm

Evangelicals are going to use science :rotfl: The same creatures that bravely stood against desegregation--because segregation is in the bible!--are now out to get the transgendered community because humans that are not like them make them feel icky. What do the log cabin republicans think about this? Caitlynn Jenner? Peter Thiel? Where you at?

kaitak wrote:
What has religion got to do with it? Lots ... the Trans community has been a popular target for religions, across the board; last year, leaders from across the religious spectrum signed a letter which effectively said that Transgender, as a concept, didn't actually exist;

It's not really religionS; it's one very specific one. No points for guessing the right one. Of course the irony is you have a parade of people who believe the earth was created in 7 days by an imaginary sky fairy 4000 years ago telling other people they don't exist or are mentally ill--in spite of loads of medical and scientific reality. Perhaps they're just projecting. Or they're just continuing their proud tradition of abject ignorance and poisonous vengeance like their moral compass and leader Trump.
Last edited by MaverickM11 on Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ken777
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:34 pm

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that Trump is a spewer of his hate. He's admitting that he is a "Nationalist" - short for White Nationalist - and will spew out anything that the most ignorant of his base will accept. With the trans attack he's simply spewing the Evangelicals versions of Hate. If his followers win the upcoming Election there will simply be increases run the spewing. The advancement of Nationalism goes beyond the KKK and White Nationalists. It harkens back to of Hitler's early days of using Nationalism to win elections. Clearly a Putin Lap Dog.
 
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stl07
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:48 pm

Why in the world is there a transgender republican?
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jetero
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:58 pm

stl07 wrote:
Why in the world is there a transgender republican?


Caitlyn herself is. Or was.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:11 pm

stl07 wrote:
Why in the world is there a transgender republican?

No idea...they love supply side economics but also love being attacked by their fellow partisans? *shrug* Who knows. They're super sad though:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... btq-switch
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ClipperMonsoon
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:19 pm

Should come as no surprise, instead if working on the real issues, and attempting to soothe the division in this country, the dictator-in-chief, is too busy dividing the people, and he's made it a full time job, I will definitely do my part to make sure he's only a one term failure!
The true Queen of the Skies has an HF antenna probe atop the stabilizer, the Boeing 707-321B
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:13 pm

kaitak wrote:
Barely a year after failing to have Trans people ejected from the media (but certainly making their service and recruitment harder), Trump's administration wants to define Trans people out of existence.

This is something that needs to be fought.


Why?? Can't stand the man but I do agree with this, the trans issue is a bad joke being forced onto us all. The removal of perfectly functional body parts for cosmetic reasons should never have been allowed, especially when its taxpayer funded.
Last edited by Kiwirob on Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:17 pm

Ken777 wrote:
Clearly a Putin Lap Dog.


Clearly not since Russia is still heavily sanctioned. All this talk of Trump being under Putin's thumb is pure fantasy, the reality just doesn't back it up.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:22 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Why in the world is there a transgender republican?

No idea...they love supply side economics but also love being attacked by their fellow partisans? *shrug* Who knows. They're super sad though:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... btq-switch


Probably loved the huge tax cut as well.
 
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seb146
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:36 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
kaitak wrote:
Barely a year after failing to have Trans people ejected from the media (but certainly making their service and recruitment harder), Trump's administration wants to define Trans people out of existence.

This is something that needs to be fought.


Why?? Can't stand the man but I do agree with this, the trans issue is a bad joke being forced onto us all. The removal of perfectly functional body parts for cosmetic reasons should never have been allowed, especially when its taxpayer funded.


I know this is all sciency and stuff but there is something genetic, something in the womb, that determines this, according to scientists....

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1AJ0F0

The actual science stuff comes down the article but researchers in Europe are finding that the brain cells of transgender people are more like the brains of cisgender people who they identify with. In other words: a transgender person who identifies as a woman has a cluster of brain cells that are nearly identical to the same cluster in cisgender women.

https://www.biospace.com/article/new-st ... -identity/

A second link just because.

Groups have applied for funding in the United States but that ain't gonna happen as long as Republicans are in charge. Gotta have groups to hate for no reason.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:55 pm

As you say nearly identical, but not identical, they are born as what they biologically are. I also don't think you can read much into a study that was based on 12 brains. People should not be allowed to chop bits off, especially when the taxpayer is paying for it.

I also find it very unsettling that govts are allowing pre teens to transition, children should not be allowed to do this, this is not a decision that should be made until well after the child has reached puberty.
 
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seb146
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:14 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
As you say nearly identical, but not identical, they are born as what they biologically are. I also don't think you can read much into a study that was based on 12 brains. People should not be allowed to chop bits off, especially when the taxpayer is paying for it.


So, no science. Just keep hating the unknown.

I also find it very unsettling that govts are allowing pre teens to transition, children should not be allowed to do this, this is not a decision that should be made until well after the child has reached puberty.


I knew I was gay when I was 5 years old. Transgender are the same, from the conversations I have had.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
aviationaware
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:29 pm

Transgenderism is a mental disorder. We are not doing those people any favors by pretending otherwise and telling them that they are normal. There are only two genders and one you are born with. This is not about "erasing" anyone. It's about restoring a sense of normalcy and reason to this debate.

There are very few people who were genuinely "born in the wrong body". Those people have a mental health problem and they need help, which might include gender surgery. But those people are few. What we are witnessing now is a militant trans agenda being pushed in some parts of society, causing more and more people to think they are transsexual when they are really not and pressuring children into irreversible gender surgery and hormone therapy they might rue later in life.

I just saw a piece on CNN about a nine year old boy whose hobby is drag. A nine year old boy. His parents are allowing this kid to be sexualized and objectified on stage. The boy looked like he was doing it "voluntarily", but it is his parents' job to say no. While not transsexual, this is also part of this militant trans agenda happening along the coasts.

Don't spread it by normalizing it. Help those truly and genuinely afflicted with what they really need, which is psychological assistance.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:35 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
As you say nearly identical, but not identical, they are born as what they biologically are. I also don't think you can read much into a study that was based on 12 brains. People should not be allowed to chop bits off, especially when the taxpayer is paying for it.

I also find it very unsettling that govts are allowing pre teens to transition, children should not be allowed to do this, this is not a decision that should be made until well after the child has reached puberty.

You post here continue to demonstrate that you don't know what you are talking about (which I am sure does not surprise you). Many if not most transgender people do not "change their nethers" (tops yes), also this is the USA we are talking about so why are you going on about the government paying for it? The insurance companies are the one that cover it and many do (and not at the orders of the government).

Also what is wrong with someone changing their sex/gender if that is that important to them? How does that directly and intimately affect you and your life? Why should someone that lives, looks, and acts as a man or a woman in every real way (not predators etc., you do know that transgender people must go though A LOT of clearances by doctors and psychotherapy as well before actually getting to the point where they can change their government issued docs don't you? ...No you probably don't). It is just a flag on a license or document and it prevent people from being put into dangerous or inappropriate situations.

It impacts so very few situations, I don't understand the fear you have.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
kaitak
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:41 pm

kaitak wrote:
Barely a year after failing to have Trans people ejected from the media (but certainly making their service and recruitment harder), Trump's administration wants to define Trans people out of existence.
.


Oops - intended to say "ejected from the military"!

The real point here is why a government needs to do this; if religions have an issue with T-people (and most of them have), then they can shout and bleat about it as much as they wish, but it's NOT the role of government, in a free society, to make their position the law. That's the essence of freedom. Personal choice, based on their circumstances.

America is a big society; it can accommodate Trans people. If it has room for the NRA, the KKK, the Westboro baptist Church and various other groups of notoriety, it has room for people who only want to live their lives a certain way.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:46 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Transgenderism is a mental disorder. We are not doing those people any favors by pretending otherwise and telling them that they are normal. There are only two genders and one you are born with. This is not about "erasing" anyone. It's about restoring a sense of normalcy and reason to this debate.

Where did you get your medical degree and in what field?
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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Tugger
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:51 pm

kaitak wrote:
America is a big society; it can accommodate Trans people.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

For the past twenty years the trans community has been making progress on being more integrated in society, and the country has done fine, people haven't been impacted negatively, crime hasn't gone up. Nor have the fears that others have of transgender people been proven. At all.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:02 pm

seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
As you say nearly identical, but not identical, they are born as what they biologically are. I also don't think you can read much into a study that was based on 12 brains. People should not be allowed to chop bits off, especially when the taxpayer is paying for it.


So, no science. Just keep hating the unknown.


Did you bother reading reuters article you linked, yest it said there were some differences but the study was based on 12 brains. If you kept reading you would have come to this bit

"But Paul McHugh, a university professor of psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, has emerged as the leading voice challenging the “born-this-way” hypothesis.

He encourages psychiatric therapy for transgender people, especially children, so that they accept the gender assigned to them at birth.

McHugh has gained a following among social conservatives, while incensing LGBT advocates with comments such as calling transgender people “counterfeit.”

Last year he co-authored a review of the scientific literature published in The New Atlantis journal, asserting there was scant evidence to suggest sexual orientation and gender identity were biologically determined.

The article drew a rebuke from nearly 600 academics and clinicians who called it misleading.

McHugh told Reuters he was “unmoved” by his critics and says he doubts additional research will reveal a biological cause.

“If it were obvious,” he said, “they would have found it long ago.”

seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
I also find it very unsettling that govts are allowing pre teens to transition, children should not be allowed to do this, this is not a decision that should be made until well after the child has reached puberty.


I knew I was gay when I was 5 years old. Transgender are the same, from the conversations I have had.


I don't think being gay and being trans are the same issue at all, why mix them.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:04 pm

Tugger wrote:
I also find it very unsettling that govts are allowing pre teens to transition, children should not be allowed to do this, this is not a decision that should be made until well after the child has reached puberty.

You post here continue to demonstrate that you don't know what you are talking about (which I am sure does not surprise you). Many if not most transgender people do not "change their nethers" (tops yes), also this is the USA we are talking about so why are you going on about the government paying for it? The insurance companies are the one that cover it and many do (and not at the orders of the government).

Also what is wrong with someone changing their sex/gender if that is that important to them? How does that directly and intimately affect you and your life? Why should someone that lives, looks, and acts as a man or a woman in every real way (not predators etc., you do know that transgender people must go though A LOT of clearances by doctors and psychotherapy as well before actually getting to the point where they can change their government issued docs don't you? ...No you probably don't). It is just a flag on a license or document and it prevent people from being put into dangerous or inappropriate situations.

It impacts so very few situations, I don't understand the fear you have.

Tugg[/quote]

In both NZ and Norway the govt pays for it, I resent the fact that my tax is being spent on an utterly worthless and unnecessary medical procedure which doesn't change what they are.
 
hoons90
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:05 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Transgenderism is a mental disorder. We are not doing those people any favors by pretending otherwise and telling them that they are normal. There are only two genders and one you are born with. This is not about "erasing" anyone. It's about restoring a sense of normalcy and reason to this debate.

Don't spread it by normalizing it. Help those truly and genuinely afflicted with what they really need, which is psychological assistance.


Aren't you gay?

Wasn't it only half a century ago that the same thing was said about homosexuality? That it was a mental disorder, and that homosexuals are not normal, and homosexuality should not be spread or normalized?

What sort of psychological assistance? Something like gay conversion therapy?
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Tugger
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:10 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
In both NZ and Norway the govt pays for it, I resent the fact that my tax is being spent on an utterly worthless and unnecessary medical procedure which doesn't change what they are.

But it does change "what they are". Or do you find braces don't change how someones face and importantly their smile is? Did you get braces perchance in your life?

By the way, do your taxes actually fully cover everything you cost and will cost your government(s) for your own healthcare? And do you have proof that the people who get treatment or surgery are not fully covering their cost with their taxes? Just curious as you are stating that you are paying for this.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
aviationaware
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:13 pm

hoons90 wrote:

Aren't you gay?

Wasn't it only half a century ago that the same thing was said about homosexuality? That it was a mental disorder, and that homosexuals are not normal, and homosexuality should not be spread or normalized?

What sort of psychological assistance? Something like gay conversion therapy?


Lumping gays and trans people under one umbrella is absolutely ludicrous.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:15 pm

aviationaware wrote:
hoons90 wrote:

Aren't you gay?

Wasn't it only half a century ago that the same thing was said about homosexuality? That it was a mental disorder, and that homosexuals are not normal, and homosexuality should not be spread or normalized?

What sort of psychological assistance? Something like gay conversion therapy?


Lumping gays and trans people under one umbrella is absolutely ludicrous.

But Hoons is right. Homosexuality is a mental problem as much as anything else. Just like the opposite sex, problem solved. Get treatment for it.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
hoons90
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:26 pm

aviationaware wrote:
hoons90 wrote:

Aren't you gay?

Wasn't it only half a century ago that the same thing was said about homosexuality? That it was a mental disorder, and that homosexuals are not normal, and homosexuality should not be spread or normalized?

What sort of psychological assistance? Something like gay conversion therapy?


Lumping gays and trans people under one umbrella is absolutely ludicrous.


How so?

Both communities have suffered a great deal from discrimination and oppression based on heteronormative preconceptions. The same justifications that were used to discriminate against gays in the past are being used today to oppress transgender people. Your statement above is a clear example, all you need to do is replace the word "transgender" with "homosexual" and it sounds awfully similar to the rhetoric used against gays back in the 50's.

Being transgender is not a mental disorder. If anything, gender dysphoria is a mental disorder, which the treatment for is sex reassignment surgery. Matching the body to the mind, and not the other way around which would be considered psychological torture. If an individual is happy with the body parts that one has, how can it be a disorder if it doesn't harm them?
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Tugger
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:38 pm

hoons90 wrote:
Being transgender is not a mental disorder. If anything, gender dysphoria is a mental disorder, which the treatment for is sex reassignment surgery. Matching the body to the mind, and not the other way around which would be considered psychological torture.

First let me say that I agree that being transgender is not a mental disorder. However I will note that in the treatment process sometimes people DO stay with their physical gender and manage it differently. And certainly gender reassignment surgery is not always the result. There is a large range from people just living with the issue (which you describe as "torture" but it really depends of the extent of the dysphoria and the desires of the person etc.) all the way to surgery.

And importantly, these ARE normal people, all people have issues and problems that they must work through and manage. And people do. The problem comes when you force people to be "not normal" and accept some outside edict that is unnecessary. People have been gender disphoric and/or living as transgender forever, we just don't see them as they live and change very privately and make any changes on their own.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
aviationaware
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:43 pm

hoons90 wrote:
Your statement above is a clear example, all you need to do is replace the word "transgender" with "homosexual" and it sounds awfully similar to the rhetoric used against gays back in the 50's.


It may sound similar, but if you really think it's the same then you really don't have a clue what you're talking about.
 
hoons90
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:55 pm

aviationaware wrote:
hoons90 wrote:
Your statement above is a clear example, all you need to do is replace the word "transgender" with "homosexual" and it sounds awfully similar to the rhetoric used against gays back in the 50's.


It may sound similar, but if you really think it's the same then you really don't have a clue what you're talking about.


I'm not arguing that gays and transgender people are the same, and that all of their experiences are the same. I'm arguing that the discrimination and the resulting suffering that both communities face are similar, and are rooted from similar heteronormative milieux.

Maybe you can explain why you think it's acceptable to label transgenderism as a mental disorder, and not homosexuality. And please do go beyond "They're two different things". Explain why you think this difference actually matters in terms of why discrimination and disrespect is justifiable towards one group and not the other.
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seb146
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:48 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
As you say nearly identical, but not identical, they are born as what they biologically are. I also don't think you can read much into a study that was based on 12 brains. People should not be allowed to chop bits off, especially when the taxpayer is paying for it.


So, no science. Just keep hating the unknown.


Did you bother reading reuters article you linked, yest it said there were some differences but the study was based on 12 brains. If you kept reading you would have come to this bit

"But Paul McHugh, a university professor of psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, has emerged as the leading voice challenging the “born-this-way” hypothesis.

He encourages psychiatric therapy for transgender people, especially children, so that they accept the gender assigned to them at birth.

McHugh has gained a following among social conservatives, while incensing LGBT advocates with comments such as calling transgender people “counterfeit.”

Last year he co-authored a review of the scientific literature published in The New Atlantis journal, asserting there was scant evidence to suggest sexual orientation and gender identity were biologically determined.

The article drew a rebuke from nearly 600 academics and clinicians who called it misleading.

McHugh told Reuters he was “unmoved” by his critics and says he doubts additional research will reveal a biological cause.

“If it were obvious,” he said, “they would have found it long ago.”


Because of Republicans like you, it may never be known. Not by American scientists, anyway. That is unfortunate, but, as long Republicans can use ignorance to breed hate, they are winning.

Kiwirob wrote:
I don't think being gay and being trans are the same issue at all, why mix them.


Actually, yes. We are finding out sexual orientation is in our DNA. We could find out about being trans in our DNA but Republicans hate science.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
stratclub
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:24 am

Kiwirob wrote:
kaitak wrote:
Barely a year after failing to have Trans people ejected from the media (but certainly making their service and recruitment harder), Trump's administration wants to define Trans people out of existence.

This is something that needs to be fought.


Why?? Can't stand the man but I do agree with this, the trans issue is a bad joke being forced onto us all. The removal of perfectly functional body parts for cosmetic reasons should never have been allowed, especially when its taxpayer funded.

It is impossible to change someones gender. It is a travesty that people support the notion that you can through "gender reassignment". Bruce Jenner did not magically become female, he is a male that mutilated his body with medical science help because he has a sexual identity disorder. Can you "fix" the disorder? No, because that is just the way he is wired.

Medical science need to revisit their "cause no harm" construct and stop doing things just because they can..............
 
bgm
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Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:09 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I also find it very unsettling that govts are allowing pre teens to transition, children should not be allowed to do this, this is not a decision that should be made until well after the child has reached puberty.

You post here continue to demonstrate that you don't know what you are talking about (which I am sure does not surprise you). Many if not most transgender people do not "change their nethers" (tops yes), also this is the USA we are talking about so why are you going on about the government paying for it? The insurance companies are the one that cover it and many do (and not at the orders of the government).

Also what is wrong with someone changing their sex/gender if that is that important to them? How does that directly and intimately affect you and your life? Why should someone that lives, looks, and acts as a man or a woman in every real way (not predators etc., you do know that transgender people must go though A LOT of clearances by doctors and psychotherapy as well before actually getting to the point where they can change their government issued docs don't you? ...No you probably don't). It is just a flag on a license or document and it prevent people from being put into dangerous or inappropriate situations.

It impacts so very few situations, I don't understand the fear you have.

Tugg


Kiwirob wrote:
In both NZ and Norway the govt pays for it, I resent the fact that my tax is being spent on an utterly worthless and unnecessary medical procedure which doesn't change what they are.


Imagine you are biologically female.

Yet in your head you're clearly a guy (as you feel now). How would you deal with that? Would you dress/act/identify according to your genitals, or your mind? Which would you do?
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13182
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:13 am

Tugger wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
In both NZ and Norway the govt pays for it, I resent the fact that my tax is being spent on an utterly worthless and unnecessary medical procedure which doesn't change what they are.

But it does change "what they are". Or do you find braces don't change how someones face and importantly their smile is? Did you get braces perchance in your life?

By the way, do your taxes actually fully cover everything you cost and will cost your government(s) for your own healthcare? And do you have proof that the people who get treatment or surgery are not fully covering their cost with their taxes? Just curious as you are stating that you are paying for this.

Tugg


Chopping body part of is completely different to getting braces.

I also resent that my taxes are being used to pay for smokers healthcare, but as least cigarettes are heavily taxed and that pays for most of it, but where's the tax for trans people that only trans people pay?

But what about children, there is a moral issue here, children aren't capable of making life changing decisions like this and parents have no right to make it for them.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13182
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:21 am

bgm wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I also find it very unsettling that govts are allowing pre teens to transition, children should not be allowed to do this, this is not a decision that should be made until well after the child has reached puberty.

You post here continue to demonstrate that you don't know what you are talking about (which I am sure does not surprise you). Many if not most transgender people do not "change their nethers" (tops yes), also this is the USA we are talking about so why are you going on about the government paying for it? The insurance companies are the one that cover it and many do (and not at the orders of the government).

Also what is wrong with someone changing their sex/gender if that is that important to them? How does that directly and intimately affect you and your life? Why should someone that lives, looks, and acts as a man or a woman in every real way (not predators etc., you do know that transgender people must go though A LOT of clearances by doctors and psychotherapy as well before actually getting to the point where they can change their government issued docs don't you? ...No you probably don't). It is just a flag on a license or document and it prevent people from being put into dangerous or inappropriate situations.

It impacts so very few situations, I don't understand the fear you have.

Tugg


Kiwirob wrote:
In both NZ and Norway the govt pays for it, I resent the fact that my tax is being spent on an utterly worthless and unnecessary medical procedure which doesn't change what they are.


Imagine you are biologically female.

Yet in your head you're clearly a guy (as you feel now). How would you deal with that? Would you dress/act/identify according to your genitals, or your mind? Which would you do?


But see I don't believe that that's the case. You are what is says on the box, born with a dick you are a guy, born without you are female, the only people with a real issue are intersex, they can be what the choose to be.

What makes a trans person any different to someone who believes they should be an amputee or in a wheelchair? It's the same issue, body dysmorphia, yet if you're trans it's ok but if you think you shouldn't have a foot it's not, when really it's the same issue.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13182
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:26 am

stratclub wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
kaitak wrote:
Barely a year after failing to have Trans people ejected from the media (but certainly making their service and recruitment harder), Trump's administration wants to define Trans people out of existence.

This is something that needs to be fought.


Why?? Can't stand the man but I do agree with this, the trans issue is a bad joke being forced onto us all. The removal of perfectly functional body parts for cosmetic reasons should never have been allowed, especially when its taxpayer funded.

It is impossible to change someones gender. It is a travesty that people support the notion that you can through "gender reassignment". Bruce Jenner did not magically become female, he is a male that mutilated his body with medical science help because he has a sexual identity disorder. Can you "fix" the disorder? No, because that is just the way he is wired.

Medical science need to revisit their "cause no harm" construct and stop doing things just because they can..............


I could not have said that any better myself!
 
bgm
Posts: 2535
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:27 am

Kiwirob wrote:
But see I don't believe that that's the case. You are what is says on the box, born with a dick you are a guy, born without you are female, the only people with a real issue are intersex, they can be what the choose to be.

What makes a trans person any different to someone who believes they should be an amputee or in a wheelchair? It's the same issue, body dysmorphia, yet if you're trans it's ok but if you think you shouldn't have a foot it's not, when really it's the same issue.


Nice try. What you believe is irrelevant. Answer the question. Which would you do?
 
User avatar
johnboy
Posts: 3122
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 9:09 pm

Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:53 am

hoons90 wrote:

Aren't you gay?

Wasn't it only half a century ago that the same thing was said about homosexuality? That it was a mental disorder, and that homosexuals are not normal, and homosexuality should not be spread or normalized?

What sort of psychological assistance? Something like gay conversion therapy?



That one is gay?

Ick. :vomit:
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13182
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:16 am

seb146 wrote:

Because of Republicans like you, it may never be known. Not by American scientists, anyway. That is unfortunate, but, as long Republicans can use ignorance to breed hate, they are winning.


Me a republican?? You're having a laugh, apart from agreeing with Trump on this issue you won't find me agreeing with much else he's said or done. The same goes for both Bush's. I backed Obama, and would have been happy if Clinton won, not that I think she would have made a decent President but how could she be worse than the incumbent.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13182
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:20 am

bgm wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
But see I don't believe that that's the case. You are what is says on the box, born with a dick you are a guy, born without you are female, the only people with a real issue are intersex, they can be what the choose to be.

What makes a trans person any different to someone who believes they should be an amputee or in a wheelchair? It's the same issue, body dysmorphia, yet if you're trans it's ok but if you think you shouldn't have a foot it's not, when really it's the same issue.


Nice try. What you believe is irrelevant. Answer the question. Which would you do?


I'm not in that situation, it's also irrelevant to my opinion today. Only someone with this illness can answer it.
 
User avatar
flyingsikh
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:47 pm

Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:32 am

Folks spend way to much time worrying about other people’s sexual preferences.

Live and let live.
Today gives us a chance to love, to work, to play, and to look up at the stars.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13182
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:04 pm

flyingsikh wrote:
Folks spend way to much time worrying about other people’s sexual preferences.

Live and let live.


Being gay, straight or enjoying the company of your right hand is a sexual preference, the trans issue isn't IMO about who you want to sleep with.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11088
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:13 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Chopping body part of is completely different to getting braces.

Why do you say that? You stated that essentially "You are as you were born." Period. And just because we have the medical tech to change someone appearance to the outside world, it should not be used/allowed to be used.

Braces are used to straighten teeth. That affects their appearance to the outside world as much and gender and sometimes it affects how people interact with them. How are braces that significantly different in what they do to a person?

And again you did not answer the questions I asked: Did you have braces? And do you contribute enough in taxes to cover the cost of your own (and your families?) healthcare? And finally, do you know that trans people do not cover their cost?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:17 pm

Comparing braces to transgender surgery is just beyond silly. Braces have zero downsides. Gender surgery is irreversible and there are not just a handful of people who deeply regret getting it.
 
User avatar
CitizenJustin
Posts: 767
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:12 am

Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:19 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Because of Republicans like you, it may never be known. Not by American scientists, anyway. That is unfortunate, but, as long Republicans can use ignorance to breed hate, they are winning.


Me a republican?? You're having a laugh, apart from agreeing with Trump on this issue you won't find me agreeing with much else he's said or done. The same goes for both Bush's. I backed Obama, and would have been happy if Clinton won, not that I think she would have made a decent President but how could she be worse than the incumbent.


I’m shocked by your opinion on this issue and never saw it coming from you of all people.

Your ignorance and hostility towards the transgender community is certainly on par with the rights hatred of anyone that’s different. You truly sound like my long exiled, hillbilly relatives that live in towns with more tumbleweeds than people. No matter what science says, you’ve already made up your mind and that’s a problem. What separates you from anyone else that denies science not fitting their world view?

Eventually, the transgender community will be accepted by the majority. You’ll either change your stance or become the cranky, hate mongering old man that everyone despises. On this particular matter, I see no difference between you and those that keep holding onto their homophobia.
 
2122M
Posts: 1327
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:21 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
flyingsikh wrote:
Folks spend way to much time worrying about other people’s sexual preferences.

Live and let live.


Being gay, straight or enjoying the company of your right hand is a sexual preference, the trans issue isn't IMO about who you want to sleep with.


But how does someone being trans-gender affect you at all. If it makes them happy, it makes them happy. You don't know at all what there lives are like or how they truly feel and what they do with their lives and bodies has absolutely nothing to do with you. Concerned about tax dollars? A quick Google search tells me that only 1% of NZ residents identify as trans and there are only 3 surgeries funded ever 2 years (https://blog.greens.org.nz/2015/05/20/a ... essential/) at an average cot to the tax payer of maybe $75,000 / year, obviously a tiny, tiny fraction of the budget of a country that runs a billion + dollar surplus.

So why on earth are you so bent out of shape about it?
 
2122M
Posts: 1327
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:24 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Comparing braces to transgender surgery is just beyond silly. Braces have zero downsides. Gender surgery is irreversible and there are not just a handful of people who deeply regret getting it.


You present a ton of information with absolutely zero sources.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13182
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:46 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Comparing braces to transgender surgery is just beyond silly. Braces have zero downsides. Gender surgery is irreversible and there are not just a handful of people who deeply regret getting it.


What he said.

One of my children will get braces, we have to pay, it’s not a fully covered procedure. I pay a lot of tax, so does my wife, I can’t see us being a burden on the govt.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13182
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:57 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Because of Republicans like you, it may never be known. Not by American scientists, anyway. That is unfortunate, but, as long Republicans can use ignorance to breed hate, they are winning.


Me a republican?? You're having a laugh, apart from agreeing with Trump on this issue you won't find me agreeing with much else he's said or done. The same goes for both Bush's. I backed Obama, and would have been happy if Clinton won, not that I think she would have made a decent President but how could she be worse than the incumbent.


I’m shocked by your opinion on this issue and never saw it coming from you of all people.

Your ignorance and hostility towards the transgender community is certainly on par with the rights hatred of anyone that’s different. You truly sound like my long exiled, hillbilly relatives that live in towns with more tumbleweeds than people. No matter what science says, you’ve already made up your mind and that’s a problem. What separates you from anyone else that denies science not fitting their world view?

Eventually, the transgender community will be accepted by the majority. You’ll either change your stance or become the cranky, hate mongering old man that everyone despises. On this particular matter, I see no difference between you and those that keep holding onto their homophobia.


At the moment science doesn’t appear to have a clue, it’s being made up as we go along. Like the study of trans brains, 12 brains is hardly enough to make an effective sample is it? That’s the one activists like to site when they make that argument.

Children should not be expiremented on either, this is morally wrong, it’s also not reversible once parts have been removed.

You can be as shocked as you like by my opinion, this is going to end in tears for everyone. IMO you can change your clothing to reflect what you think you are and even your name, but the medical profession should never have been allowed to go down the gender reassignment rabbit hole.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13182
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:05 pm

2122M wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
flyingsikh wrote:
Folks spend way to much time worrying about other people’s sexual preferences.

Live and let live.


Being gay, straight or enjoying the company of your right hand is a sexual preference, the trans issue isn't IMO about who you want to sleep with.


But how does someone being trans-gender affect you at all. If it makes them happy, it makes them happy. You don't know at all what there lives are like or how they truly feel and what they do with their lives and bodies has absolutely nothing to do with you. Concerned about tax dollars? A quick Google search tells me that only 1% of NZ residents identify as trans and there are only 3 surgeries funded ever 2 years (https://blog.greens.org.nz/2015/05/20/a ... essential/) at an average cot to the tax payer of maybe $75,000 / year, obviously a tiny, tiny fraction of the budget of a country that runs a billion + dollar surplus.

So why on earth are you so bent out of shape about it?


And wasting money removing functional body parts when there are waiting lists for life saving surgeries is an afront to the taxpayer and the people on those lists.

Thankfully there is only one surgeon in
NZ qualified to perform gender reassignment, the waiting list is about 70 years so not a lot of tax payer funds are being waisted.
 
2122M
Posts: 1327
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:12 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
2122M wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Being gay, straight or enjoying the company of your right hand is a sexual preference, the trans issue isn't IMO about who you want to sleep with.


But how does someone being trans-gender affect you at all. If it makes them happy, it makes them happy. You don't know at all what there lives are like or how they truly feel and what they do with their lives and bodies has absolutely nothing to do with you. Concerned about tax dollars? A quick Google search tells me that only 1% of NZ residents identify as trans and there are only 3 surgeries funded ever 2 years (https://blog.greens.org.nz/2015/05/20/a ... essential/) at an average cot to the tax payer of maybe $75,000 / year, obviously a tiny, tiny fraction of the budget of a country that runs a billion + dollar surplus.

So why on earth are you so bent out of shape about it?


And wasting money removing functional body parts when there are waiting lists for life saving surgeries is an afront to the taxpayer and the people on those lists.

Thankfully there is only one surgeon in
NZ qualified to perform gender reassignment, the waiting list is about 70 years so not a lot of tax payer funds are being waisted.


As you pointed out, the doctors that do the life saving surgeries are not the same as the one(s) doing gender reassignment work, so its not an affront to anyone on any other list. furthermore, you have plenty of money in the NZ surplus laden budget for this. Ending these surgeries would have 0 impact on your finances as a tax payer.

So why do you care? Why can't you just live and let live? Seems like a gigantic waste of your energy to even think about the issue at all, let alone come on here to actively rail against trans rights.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11088
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Trump to attack Trans community ... again

Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:35 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Comparing braces to transgender surgery is just beyond silly. Braces have zero downsides. Gender surgery is irreversible and there are not just a handful of people who deeply regret getting it.

I am not comparing "braces to transgender surgery", we all know the two situations are very different. I am asking why changing ones appearance externally in one case is acceptable while in the other case it is absolutely, with no exceptions, unacceptable. And if you don't think ones smile and mouth aren't among the most important features of a human face then you are also being beyond silly.

Did you have braces?

And additionally, people here keep jumping straight to "gender surgery" however that is often not done (though yes for many men who transition it is ultimately the goal/done). And for your statement that it is irreversible, since the most common surgery is "top", that is actually very reversible if needed. The irreversible ones are the penis and vagina and in order to have those done (in the USA or to be covered under insurance) there is a significant process that one must go through.

Can I assume you (and Kiwirob) are OK with someone getting such surgery if they pay for it by themselves (disregarding the "gov id issue" for now)?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey

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