User avatar
seb146
Posts: 20960
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:37 pm

MassAppeal wrote:
Lots of homosexuals carry guns every day for protection. Its saved many of them from physical violence.


That has nothing to do with any mass shooting. It just proves that gays are using guns for what NRA wants guns to be used for: personal safety from aggressive attacks. Ironically, those aggressors who end up shot are also ones who demand guns everywhere. Those people who hate gays for being and beat and attempt to kill us are, usually, also MAGA Republican NRA supporters.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2044
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:42 pm

Our professionals that clear someone, like the this suicide shooter... if they can't detect the worst of the worst, then what do we need them for? Google how he was cleared by their "team."
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8860
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:10 pm

stratclub wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It is a small price to pay for freedom and the right of self defence. It is like, cars do you forbid cars, because people die in accidents? And other countries have crazy laws as well. In Europe you can buy dangerous Kindereier, a chocolate weapon of mass destruction, that the US citizen is protected from due to strict border control.

Your house of card argument really falls apart if you actually read the 2nd amendment as it was written. By any stretch of the imagination how can this simple and straight forward amendment be rewritten and misinterpreted as the NRA and gun manufacturers have done? Nowhere in the 2nd amendment is arms for personal protection mentioned.

2nd Amendment:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The 2nd amendment was never intended to grant everyone unlimited access to guns. The need for a well regulated militia is not a requirement today because unlike when the amendment was written, we now have trained professional law enforcement and trained professional armed forces. Is your plan to take up arms against the United States? Let me know how that works for you............


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

So any form of gun control is against the constitution and every one should have all the weapons he likes. Even tanks or ATGMs or fighter jets.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9480
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:13 pm

seahawk wrote:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Yes exactly, see how all the words matter?

They build a sentence that means something.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8860
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:47 pm

That is the strange thing about the US legal system. It seems like nobody wants to draw any connection between Article I Section 8, the Second Militia Act of 1792, the Militia Act of 1903 and the 2nd amendment.

The second amendment makes lots of sense in combination with the Second Militia Act of 1792 and Article I Section 8. But today the Second Militia Act of 1792 is no longer valid and nobody cared to change the second amendment.
 
User avatar
MassAppeal
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:35 pm

seb146 wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
Lots of homosexuals carry guns every day for protection. Its saved many of them from physical violence.


That has nothing to do with any mass shooting. It just proves that gays are using guns for what NRA wants guns to be used for: personal safety from aggressive attacks. Ironically, those aggressors who end up shot are also ones who demand guns everywhere. Those people who hate gays for being and beat and attempt to kill us are, usually, also MAGA Republican NRA supporters.


That's what 99.999% of gun owners do. The same people you call "ammosexuals" are those people.

But you don't understand nuance so we all have to write in a way that you might.
 
Wacker1000
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:36 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:43 pm

moo wrote:
Wacker1000 wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
Its preventable when guns aren't already in the hands of most Americans. The reason they don't happen in Germany or the UK with such frequency is because there aren't that many guns around.


Germany is happy to prove that taking guns away doesn't stop lunatics from murdering people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_truck_attack

And in the UK they're too busy stabbing each other after school to be bothered with guns: https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/06/health/y ... index.html



petertenthije wrote:
Cars are a bad analogy. They are strictly controlled. You need a driving license, car insurance and the car requires an annual safety check. Restrictions can be placed on you if your health deteriorates. And that’s just for ownership. To use the car you have to comply to the highway code. And both the ownership rules and highway code are actually enforced.


Yet there are plenty of uninsured and/or unlicensed people driving around causing accidents.....


Despite all attempts to show that other countries have a similar problem to justify not doing anything about gun ownership in the US, the fact remains that while attacks and crime via other means happens, its orders of magnitude lower than gun crime in the US.

Knife crimes still happen in the US.

Vehicular murder still happens in the US.

Which indicates to me that you still need to do something about gun crime in the US before you can claim any sort of moral or ethical ground by holding up vehicular murder in Berlin or knife crime in the UK.



Ok - how would you fix it then?
 
Jalap
Posts: 489
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:44 pm

DL717 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It is like, cars do you forbid cars, because people die in accidents?


It's nothing like cars for lots of reasons, but mainly for the key word you used - 'accidents'.

Mass shootings are not accidents.


Nor is driving under the influence.

Valid point.
So you'll probably agree that carrying a gun under influence should be illegal too.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 20960
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:50 pm

MassAppeal wrote:
seb146 wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
Lots of homosexuals carry guns every day for protection. Its saved many of them from physical violence.


That has nothing to do with any mass shooting. It just proves that gays are using guns for what NRA wants guns to be used for: personal safety from aggressive attacks. Ironically, those aggressors who end up shot are also ones who demand guns everywhere. Those people who hate gays for being and beat and attempt to kill us are, usually, also MAGA Republican NRA supporters.


That's what 99.999% of gun owners do. The same people you call "ammosexuals" are those people.

But you don't understand nuance so we all have to write in a way that you might.


The loudest ammosexuals are the ones who DEMAND guns everywhere and falesly claim that "liberals" want to ban all guns. Other reasonable gun owners simply fall in line behind them, for some reason. Every damn time there is a damn mass murder in this country and we say "what can we do" the knee-jerk reaction is "DON'T BAN GUNS!!!" from all the same people and responsible and reasonable gun owners fall in line.

This is why we can not have an honest discussion and actually do something about preventing the next mass murder.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... ocked.html

THE PEOPLE of California actually tried to do something to slow down these types of mass murders but a REPUBLICAN appointed judge sided with NRA and decided that guns are more important than lives and doing something.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17679
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:08 pm

DL717 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It is like, cars do you forbid cars, because people die in accidents?


It's nothing like cars for lots of reasons, but mainly for the key word you used - 'accidents'.

Mass shootings are not accidents.


Nor is driving under the influence.


You really have to be a special type of stupid to try and equate the two. But hey, go for it!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 12789
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:32 pm

What gets lost on all you gun grabbers is the common thread on these shooters. Bullying. All the way back to Columbine. It's not the guns that are killing these people. It's the alpha males in HS that have to torture and cause this mental illness in these people because they are different. If you put your effort in stopping bullying in schools you wouldn't have this issue.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... a-bar.html
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die.
 
Jalap
Posts: 489
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:38 pm

DL717 wrote:
No, guns are not the issue. People are.

Okay, if you do pinpoint this as the root of the problem, then regulations on people to own and/or carry guns are a logical way forward.

Do people here who defend the right to own guns object to strict laws on the people who own guns?

Because it is possible to have guns and not have that insane amount of gun deaths per 100.000 people as in the USA.
Germany has about 1/3 the amount of guns per inhabitant as the USA. Yet it has about 1/70 the amount of homocides per gun, compared to the USA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

While I don't know why Germans decide to commit homocide fewer by a factor of 23 compared to Americans, I do suspect that regulations on people play an important role.
Why is this seeminly taboo in the USA?
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 9852
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:56 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
What gets lost on all you gun grabbers is the common thread on these shooters. Bullying. All the way back to Columbine. It's not the guns that are killing these people. It's the alpha males in HS that have to torture and cause this mental illness in these people because they are different. If you put your effort in stopping bullying in schools you wouldn't have this issue.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... a-bar.html


To do THAT, America as a whole culture and the American male media machine would have to admit men are actually emotional beings and have real feelz. Seems kinda unlikely...
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
MassAppeal
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:58 pm

Jalap wrote:
DL717 wrote:
No, guns are not the issue. People are.

Okay, if you do pinpoint this as the root of the problem, then regulations on people to own and/or carry guns are a logical way forward.

Do people here who defend the right to own guns object to strict laws on the people who own guns?

Because it is possible to have guns and not have that insane amount of gun deaths per 100.000 people as in the USA.
Germany has about 1/3 the amount of guns per inhabitant as the USA. Yet it has about 1/70 the amount of homocides per gun, compared to the USA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

While I don't know why Germans decide to commit homocide fewer by a factor of 23 compared to Americans, I do suspect that regulations on people play an important role.
Why is this seeminly taboo in the USA?


" strict laws on the people who own guns?"

What does that mean?

What tests would have detected if any of the past dozen or so shooters were mentally unfit? Is being an asshole grounds for denial?
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 20960
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:25 am

NIKV69 wrote:
What gets lost on all you gun grabbers is the common thread on these shooters.


The irony, of course, is that when the term "ammosexual" is used, you all on the right lose your minds. But, "gun grabbers" is acceptable? Maybe we could take you seriously if you didn't bully people. Republicans are not the only ones hurt by bullying and words.

Don't dish it out if you can't take it.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Jalap
Posts: 489
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:04 pm

MassAppeal wrote:
" strict laws on the people who own guns?"

What does that mean?

What tests would have detected if any of the past dozen or so shooters were mentally unfit? Is being an asshole grounds for denial?

I'm no psychologist, but surely there are ways to test mental fitness of people.
And if you don't trust psychologists, you could also decide that it's illegal to carry a gun while intoxicated or ban guns for people with a criminal record.

Anyway, nevermind me, I'm only a naive European aged 42 who has never even seen a real gun apart from those carried by police or military.
From this perspective, the things I read from certain people here is extremely surreal. Just the idea that people feel that guns could be part of everyday life is impossible to grasp.
But hey, if you feel all is okay the way it is, don't let me stand in your way.

Edit: correction: I've also seen guns on display in a museum, and a few times on display at police conventions I sometime attend for work related reasons.
 
User avatar
MassAppeal
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:28 pm

Jalap wrote:
I'm no psychologist, but surely there are ways to test mental fitness of people.
And if you don't trust psychologists, you could also decide that it's illegal to carry a gun while intoxicated or ban guns for people with a criminal record.



Like what though? That's what the whole thing about "more stringent tests" means. Does hating women or being an asshole mean you can't own a gun? Does being bitter about women make the cut? What about someone who's depressed? What would you say? What questions do you ask? I'm not challenging you as a gun nut I'm honestly wondering how do you figure out if someone is a danger like the Vegas shooter? We still don't know why he did it. He was a normal guy up until that point. Some people are just dicks.

And with your second point its already illegal in every square inch of the USA to be intoxicated and carry a gun. In many states you cant even be where alcohol is being sold. Its a felony to violate that law. Felons (and some non-felons) can't own or carry guns anywhere either. These laws have been on the books for decades.

Jalap wrote:
Anyway, nevermind me, I'm only a naive European aged 42 who has never even seen a real gun apart from those carried by police or military.
From this perspective, the things I read from certain people here is extremely surreal. Just the idea that people feel that guns could be part of everyday life is impossible to grasp.
But hey, if you feel all is okay the way it is, don't let me stand in your way.

Edit: correction: I've also seen guns on display in a museum, and a few times on display at police conventions I sometime attend for work related reasons.
[/quote]

You're not naive guns just aren't part of your culture. Just like your drinking culture or soccer culture isnt like our sports culture. We have a much more recent need for reliance on guns than you have. Many people still rely on them for protection and work every day. All cultures don't have to be the same.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:34 pm

MassAppeal wrote:
You're not naive guns just aren't part of your culture. Just like your drinking culture or soccer culture isnt like our sports culture. We have a much more recent need for reliance on guns than you have. Many people still rely on them for protection and work every day. All cultures don't have to be the same.

Culture? What is this culture you speak of?

Does going to stock car races also count as "culture"? How about collecting stamps? Is that a culture?
 
User avatar
MassAppeal
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:44 pm

salttee wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
You're not naive guns just aren't part of your culture. Just like your drinking culture or soccer culture isnt like our sports culture. We have a much more recent need for reliance on guns than you have. Many people still rely on them for protection and work every day. All cultures don't have to be the same.

Culture? What is this culture you speak of?

Does going to stock car races also count as "culture"? How about collecting stamps? Is that a culture?


All aspects of a particular society adds up to the greater culture. Some activities make up larger parts of our culture but they all play a part.

Sure, all those example can be part of the culture of a nation. This is well established.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:53 pm

You're just trying to use big words and "culture" seems to be a big word for you. Other than police and a few people who might come in contact with polar bears grizzlies or maybe in some circumstance mountain lions, nobody in this country needs a gun to go about their everyday job.

You're trying to put up a smoke screen of justification for the clowns who think they're going to overthrow the "oppressive" government someday.
 
User avatar
MassAppeal
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:07 am

salttee wrote:
You're just trying to use big words and "culture" seems to be a big word for you. Other than police and a few people who might come in contact with polar bears grizzlies or maybe in some circumstance mountain lions, nobody in this country needs a gun to go about their everyday job.

You're just trying to put up a smoke screen of justification for the clowns who think they're going to overthrow the "oppressive" government someday.


So having private ownership of a gun now means you want to be sure the gubment doesn't take you to the gulags? Why does it always go back to the anti-government argument? You do know the majority of Americans support private gun ownership and over half could see themselves owning a gun (pew research poll). Is half the country foaming at the mouth about the government or do they just like guns? The hyperbole is insane.

You don't think there's a gun/shooting culture in the USA? Are you for real? There are millions and millions of people who take part in all sorts of firearm related activities every single day without a peep about "the government". You're really ignorant if you don't know that. I've stated before I'm not even a gun owner and I know this.

Nobody needs a car or an airplane either. We have those things because they are fun and nice to have and useful. The same applies to like 98% of gun owners. They are just peaceful people who enjoy guns.

The hyperbole about gun owners being ignorant rednecks is really ironic when there's such ignorance going the other way so often. But hey, having a lack of thought about arguments is so hot right now.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:26 am

MassAppeal wrote:
So having private ownership of a gun now means you want to be sure the gubment doesn't take you to the gulags? Why does it always go back to the anti-government argument?
Because that is the argument that lies at the base of the entire pro-gun argument (well regulated militia) and those are the people who form the base of the NRA. Guns are about the sense of power many people get from guns. Other than law enforcement, nobody needs a gun that holds more than three rounds for their job or their sport.

MassAppeal wrote:
You do know the majority of Americans support private gun ownership
No, I don't know that, I think you're making that up.
Americans want guns curtailed. https://www.google.com/search?q=America ... 8&oe=utf-8

I believe that a lot of people accept gun ownership in the spirit of compromise, they don't really want guns available for every Tom Dick and Harry, but see a need to compromise in the hopes that the other guy will compromise too.

MassAppeal wrote:
You don't think there's a gun/shooting culture in the USA? Are you for real? There are millions and millions of people who take part in all sorts of firearm related activities every single day without a peep about "the government". You're really ignorant if you don't know that. I've stated before I'm not even a gun owner and I know this.
You don't "know" this, you only "think" this.
 
User avatar
MassAppeal
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:45 am

salttee wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
So having private ownership of a gun now means you want to be sure the gubment doesn't take you to the gulags? Why does it always go back to the anti-government argument?
Because that is the argument that lies at the base of the entire pro-gun argument (well regulated militia) and those are the people who form the base of the NRA. Guns are about the sense of power many people get from guns. Other than law enforcement, nobody needs a gun that holds more than three rounds for their job or their sport.

MassAppeal wrote:
You do know the majority of Americans support private gun ownership
No, I don't know that, I think you're making that up.
Americans want guns curtailed. https://www.google.com/search?q=America ... 8&oe=utf-8

I believe that a lot of people accept gun ownership in the spirit of compromise, they don't really want guns available for every Tom Dick and Harry, but see a need to compromise in the hopes that the other guy will compromise too.

MassAppeal wrote:
You don't think there's a gun/shooting culture in the USA? Are you for real? There are millions and millions of people who take part in all sorts of firearm related activities every single day without a peep about "the government". You're really ignorant if you don't know that. I've stated before I'm not even a gun owner and I know this.
You don't "know" this, you only "think" this.


For someone talking about feelings you are ignoring the facts. Yes, people want more gun control but the amount of people who own guns and think they should be allowed to have guns if they want is increasing. Again, not feelings but facts. Nobody is arguing with wanting non-crazy people having guns but you call people who want guns lunatics and nutjobs.

How did you come up with the 3 bullet answer? What do you base that off of?

You BELIEVE (again, feelings) that people think that but you have no basis on that at all. The facts are based on Pew research is that while the majority of citizens don't own guns the majority could see themselves owning them and support the ability to own them if they want. This isn't my gut feeling these are real attitudes of people. Just google it. Gun control and private ownership goes hand in hand.

And your last point about not believing there is a gun culture or people who belong to clubs centered around around hunting, shooting competitions, and the collection of historical and interesting arms from history is just amazing to me. You're either very young, don't live in the USA, or have never left a metropolitan areas in your life. Ignorance of reality isn't an excuse. Do you really not believe that?
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11944
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:10 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
People must realise by now that thoughts and prayers have failed to stem the tidal wave of death, something else like gun control rather than believing in a higher power must be the answer.


Yet you fail to realize we don't want to be your country. We are the USA and we have the right to bear arms. If that is attempted to be infringed the pushback will be massive.

Why you refuse to get this through to your brain is beyond me.


We are the USA and we own slaves here. If that is attempted to be infringed the pushback will be massive.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Topic Author
Posts: 2465
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:32 am

MassAppeal wrote:
And with your second point its already illegal in every square inch of the USA to be intoxicated and carry a gun. In many states you cant even be where alcohol is being sold. Its a felony to violate that law. Felons (and some non-felons) can't own or carry guns anywhere either. These laws have been on the books for decades.



I think it's absolutely disgusting that people's right to carry a gun should be curtailed by something as trivial as 'being intoxicated'. There's nothing in the constitution about it, so why are their rights being restricted?
 
User avatar
MassAppeal
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:28 am

MrHMSH wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
And with your second point its already illegal in every square inch of the USA to be intoxicated and carry a gun. In many states you cant even be where alcohol is being sold. Its a felony to violate that law. Felons (and some non-felons) can't own or carry guns anywhere either. These laws have been on the books for decades.



I think it's absolutely disgusting that people's right to carry a gun should be curtailed by something as trivial as 'being intoxicated'. There's nothing in the constitution about it, so why are their rights being restricted?


Because there's enough people to support curtailing that particular right. I get your sarcasm though. Some people completely agree with you and some vehemently disagree.

Again, because this is such a divisive issue I have to say this every time: I'm not a gun owner or a gun enthusiast. I don't belong to any gun organization and have never owned a gun. I have shot guns and know people who do and they are all reasonable people.

That said, we live in a country where there is enough people who feel the right for private citizens to own guns with a reasonable (up for debate) amount of restrictions is acceptable. Some people in some states feel it should be unrestricted (AZ,ID, WY, ME, NH etc) and others (NY, CA, WA, IL, FL) feel like it needs to be more restricted. And that's what those citizens have chosen there. If there were a majority in those states to outright ban guns or enact very restrictive laws then they do or would have. This is what living in a republic like the USA is like. This issue just happens to be about guns. Sometimes is about marijuana and sometimes it about gay marriage. People are always pissed. There will always be people wanting all sorts of things and that's their right because every person in a democracy has one vote, however regressive or progressive. The turnout in my county under these "crazy times" was just over 50% of voters. That's embarrassing. If Democrats turned out we'd have all sorts of progressive policies implemented. If republicans turned out we'd have more conservative policies. But people are LAZY and just like to complain after the fact.

Calling people ammosexuals or gun loving morons or gun grabbing libtards does nothing but entrench those individuals into making sure nothing changes. Neither does talking about it on internet forums. This is all for nothing. Its only making the problem worse.

vote vote vote
 
JJJ
Posts: 3348
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:13 am

MassAppeal wrote:
salttee wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
You're not naive guns just aren't part of your culture. Just like your drinking culture or soccer culture isnt like our sports culture. We have a much more recent need for reliance on guns than you have. Many people still rely on them for protection and work every day. All cultures don't have to be the same.

Culture? What is this culture you speak of?

Does going to stock car races also count as "culture"? How about collecting stamps? Is that a culture?


All aspects of a particular society adds up to the greater culture. Some activities make up larger parts of our culture but they all play a part.

Sure, all those example can be part of the culture of a nation. This is well established.


Germany, Switzerland, etc have marksmanship festivals going back hundreds of years, hunting festivals are as old as mankind. Guns aren't unique to the US culture, it's just that most of the world has moved on from a free for all mentality.

Go back a century or so and most people who could afford it had a personal gun. Still there are millions of legal guns in Europe and elsewhere (I myself own three, for target and hunting).
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2521
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:51 am

Here's an idea for 'stricter control', which doesn't only involve a psychological screening.

1. Obtaining a license
a: The applicant shall be of legal age
b: The applicant shall have no prior convictions
c: The applicant shall pass an extended background check, similar to that required to obtain a 'classified' rating
d: The applicant shall pass a theoretical and practical training course; the course shall be of a duration of no less than 20 weeks
e. The training shall be specific to the type of weapon the applicant seeks permission to carry, e.g. hunting rifle or handgun. If an applicant wishes to obtain a license for both hunting rifle and handgun, he or she shall pass the relevant training for both types
e: Following successful passing of the above, the applicant shall be eligible for obtaining a license to owning a firearm, in accordance with the training they have received
f: The applicant shall freely agree to being eligible for continued auditing of fitness to carry a firearm
g: The applicant shall agree to annual re-qualification of firearm permit
h: The applicant is solely responsible for all costs incurred during the application and training period

2. Obtaining a firearm
a: No firearm holding a capacity of more than 5 rounds may be obtained by a private individual
b: The applicant shall prove secure weapons storage is available, but at their place of residence, during transport and in temporary accommodation. Said storage shall be made available for unannounced inspections by the authorities at any time
c: The weapon(s) shall be securely stored at all times, including during transportation and whilst in temporary accommodation. Only exception is during hunts, where the applicant may carry the weapon unsecured on his person. Under no circumstances, however, may the weapon be left unsecured during rest periods (e.g. you cannot leave your weapon outside a locked container at night if you're camping)
d: Weapons may only be sold from a licensed store. Prospective owners shall, following an approved order of a weapon, endure a waiting time of no less than 1 month for delivery
e: Retailers of weapons shall ensure customers are fully compliant with all requirements. Failure to do so shall make the eligible for civil and criminal prosecution
f: Only licensed retailers may sell weapons; the sale of weapons between private individuals is strictly forbidden
g: All weapon and ammunition purchases shall be stored in a central database
h. No prospective gun owner shall be allowed to own more weapons than is reasonably necessary

3. Gun and ammunition manufacturers
a: No firearm may be manufactured or sold to private individuals holding a capacity of more than 5 rounds
b: All guns and ammunition shall have unique identifiers, making it possible to link a weapon or a fired round back to the original owner
c: All weapons shall be fitted with DNA safety mechanisms, ensuring only the registered owner may fire them
d: No weapons may be sold to private individuals which can in any way, shape or form to made function in an automatic or semi-automatic fashion
e: Gun and ammunition manufacturers are eligible for civil and criminal prosecution if their products can in any way be modified to make them illegal

There you go, free of charge!
Signature. You just read one.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17679
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:51 am

B777LRF wrote:
Here's an idea for 'stricter control', which doesn't only involve a psychological screening.

1. Obtaining a license
a: The applicant shall be of legal age
b: The applicant shall have no prior convictions
c: The applicant shall pass an extended background check, similar to that required to obtain a 'classified' rating
d: The applicant shall pass a theoretical and practical training course; the course shall be of a duration of no less than 20 weeks
e. The training shall be specific to the type of weapon the applicant seeks permission to carry, e.g. hunting rifle or handgun. If an applicant wishes to obtain a license for both hunting rifle and handgun, he or she shall pass the relevant training for both types
e: Following successful passing of the above, the applicant shall be eligible for obtaining a license to owning a firearm, in accordance with the training they have received
f: The applicant shall freely agree to being eligible for continued auditing of fitness to carry a firearm
g: The applicant shall agree to annual re-qualification of firearm permit
h: The applicant is solely responsible for all costs incurred during the application and training period

2. Obtaining a firearm
a: No firearm holding a capacity of more than 5 rounds may be obtained by a private individual
b: The applicant shall prove secure weapons storage is available, but at their place of residence, during transport and in temporary accommodation. Said storage shall be made available for unannounced inspections by the authorities at any time
c: The weapon(s) shall be securely stored at all times, including during transportation and whilst in temporary accommodation. Only exception is during hunts, where the applicant may carry the weapon unsecured on his person. Under no circumstances, however, may the weapon be left unsecured during rest periods (e.g. you cannot leave your weapon outside a locked container at night if you're camping)
d: Weapons may only be sold from a licensed store. Prospective owners shall, following an approved order of a weapon, endure a waiting time of no less than 1 month for delivery
e: Retailers of weapons shall ensure customers are fully compliant with all requirements. Failure to do so shall make the eligible for civil and criminal prosecution
f: Only licensed retailers may sell weapons; the sale of weapons between private individuals is strictly forbidden
g: All weapon and ammunition purchases shall be stored in a central database
h. No prospective gun owner shall be allowed to own more weapons than is reasonably necessary

3. Gun and ammunition manufacturers
a: No firearm may be manufactured or sold to private individuals holding a capacity of more than 5 rounds
b: All guns and ammunition shall have unique identifiers, making it possible to link a weapon or a fired round back to the original owner
c: All weapons shall be fitted with DNA safety mechanisms, ensuring only the registered owner may fire them
d: No weapons may be sold to private individuals which can in any way, shape or form to made function in an automatic or semi-automatic fashion
e: Gun and ammunition manufacturers are eligible for civil and criminal prosecution if their products can in any way be modified to make them illegal

There you go, free of charge!


You gun grabbing libtard! What don't you understand about rights and non-infringement? My freedom. My rights. Cold, dead hands. Only way to stop a bad guy with a gun... etc.

:wink2:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
stratclub
Posts: 1369
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:31 am

Justice Warren Burger had it completely right with his opinion on 2nd amendment in 1991. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eya_k4P-iEo It is just unconscionable that such a simple statement can be so completely ignored as to what it actually said. The 2nd amendment as it is interpreted today is nothing more than a celebration of American ignorance.

Seriously, we need to stop Americans from celebrating their claimed God given right to be complete imbeciles. If you are an imbecile, you should have your right to make your own decisions revoked.
 
Wacker1000
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:36 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:07 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Here's an idea for 'stricter control', which doesn't only involve a psychological screening.

1. Obtaining a license
a: The applicant shall be of legal age
b: The applicant shall have no prior convictions
c: The applicant shall pass an extended background check, similar to that required to obtain a 'classified' rating
d: The applicant shall pass a theoretical and practical training course; the course shall be of a duration of no less than 20 weeks
e. The training shall be specific to the type of weapon the applicant seeks permission to carry, e.g. hunting rifle or handgun. If an applicant wishes to obtain a license for both hunting rifle and handgun, he or she shall pass the relevant training for both types
e: Following successful passing of the above, the applicant shall be eligible for obtaining a license to owning a firearm, in accordance with the training they have received
f: The applicant shall freely agree to being eligible for continued auditing of fitness to carry a firearm
g: The applicant shall agree to annual re-qualification of firearm permit
h: The applicant is solely responsible for all costs incurred during the application and training period

2. Obtaining a firearm
a: No firearm holding a capacity of more than 5 rounds may be obtained by a private individual
b: The applicant shall prove secure weapons storage is available, but at their place of residence, during transport and in temporary accommodation. Said storage shall be made available for unannounced inspections by the authorities at any time
c: The weapon(s) shall be securely stored at all times, including during transportation and whilst in temporary accommodation. Only exception is during hunts, where the applicant may carry the weapon unsecured on his person. Under no circumstances, however, may the weapon be left unsecured during rest periods (e.g. you cannot leave your weapon outside a locked container at night if you're camping)
d: Weapons may only be sold from a licensed store. Prospective owners shall, following an approved order of a weapon, endure a waiting time of no less than 1 month for delivery
e: Retailers of weapons shall ensure customers are fully compliant with all requirements. Failure to do so shall make the eligible for civil and criminal prosecution
f: Only licensed retailers may sell weapons; the sale of weapons between private individuals is strictly forbidden
g: All weapon and ammunition purchases shall be stored in a central database
h. No prospective gun owner shall be allowed to own more weapons than is reasonably necessary

3. Gun and ammunition manufacturers
a: No firearm may be manufactured or sold to private individuals holding a capacity of more than 5 rounds
b: All guns and ammunition shall have unique identifiers, making it possible to link a weapon or a fired round back to the original owner
c: All weapons shall be fitted with DNA safety mechanisms, ensuring only the registered owner may fire them
d: No weapons may be sold to private individuals which can in any way, shape or form to made function in an automatic or semi-automatic fashion
e: Gun and ammunition manufacturers are eligible for civil and criminal prosecution if their products can in any way be modified to make them illegal

There you go, free of charge!


1e - What do you discuss for 20 weeks that would have an impact on people that commit mass murders?
1g - Does re-qualification require another 20 week class?
2a - So a law abiding nutjob can only kill 5 people before reloading? I bet the families of those 5 victims would argue that this law is just as ineffective as the current one.
2b - In violation of the 4th Amendment.
2h - Who defines "reasonable?"
3a - See 2a
3c - Give a determined person time and it'll be disabled and the entire system made ineffective at preventing what you're trying to do. You're better off not bothering.
3d - So you're down to bolt action rifles and muzzle loaders being legal?
3e - Your plan would lose all backing if this was part of a proposed law. There is performing due diligence to design a safe product but making a manufacture responsible for someone else's modifications isn't going to hold water.

Then again we could always deal with the mental health and social issues that lead up to these people committing these acts..... ;)
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:33 pm

Wacker1000 wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Here's an idea for 'stricter control', which doesn't only involve a psychological screening.
a: No firearm holding a capacity of more than 5 rounds may be obtained by a private individual

2a - So a law abiding nutjob can only kill 5 people before reloading? I bet the families of those 5 victims would argue that this law is just as ineffective as the current one.

That may sound like a clever answer to you, but it's just a shallow retort.

Limiting firearm holding capacity changes them from being human killing devices to appropriate hunting equipment. It takes all the fantasy "me a big Rambo" out of the equation. It also puts the gum nut at a serious disadvantage if they do decide to take on law enforcement. I say limit it to three rounds, that's the way it already is for hunting game in most of the US and it does not interfere with target practice or any other lawful use of guns (except war gaming).

The appeal of guns would vanish if the Rambo aspect were removed from the equation.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3058
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:49 pm

MassAppeal wrote:
You're not naive guns just aren't part of your culture. Just like your drinking culture or soccer culture isnt like our sports culture. We have a much more recent need for reliance on guns than you have. Many people still rely on them for protection and work every day. All cultures don't have to be the same.


Guns - like most political flash-points - are not really a part of American "culture". They are an obsession for a small but vocal minority of the electorate... although sales-promoting groups like the NRA would try to convince you otherwise.

salttee wrote:
Guns are about the sense of power many people get from guns. Other than law enforcement, nobody needs a gun that holds more than three rounds for their job or their sport.


"Show me a man that needs a big gun - and I will show you a man with a tiny (you-know-what)."

;)

salttee wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
You do know the majority of Americans support private gun ownership
No, I don't know that, I think you're making that up.
Americans want guns curtailed. https://www.google.com/search?q=America ... 8&oe=utf-8


:checkmark: Guns are not the only issue in the USA where the politicians are more afraid of an industry-backed lobby than the needs and wishes of the majority of the people... but it is probably the most dangerous rejection of that will.

MassAppeal wrote:
That said, we live in a country where there is enough people who feel the right for private citizens to own guns with a reasonable (up for debate) amount of restrictions is acceptable.


Ah... but there is the rub. There are plenty of people - a vast majority, as the polls show - who do support reasonable access and reasonable restrictions, but the gun lobby fights tooth-and-nail to prevent any legislation that would enact those policies.

The real problem is not gun owners; it is the NRA, which was founded to support and educate sportsmen, but discovered there was more money to be made in promoting gun sales - and finding ways to encourage (buy?) politicians to assure nothing stood in way of those sales.
Last edited by alfa164 on Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Wacker1000
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:36 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:59 pm

salttee wrote:
Wacker1000 wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Here's an idea for 'stricter control', which doesn't only involve a psychological screening.
a: No firearm holding a capacity of more than 5 rounds may be obtained by a private individual

2a - So a law abiding nutjob can only kill 5 people before reloading? I bet the families of those 5 victims would argue that this law is just as ineffective as the current one.

That may sound like a clever answer to you, but it's just a shallow retort.

Limiting firearm holding capacity changes them from being human killing devices to appropriate hunting equipment. It takes all the fantasy "me a big Rambo" out of the equation. It also puts the gum nut at a serious disadvantage if they do decide to take on law enforcement. I say limit it to three rounds, that's the way it already is for hunting game in most of the US and it does not interfere with target practice or any other lawful use of guns (except war gaming).

The appeal of guns would vanish if the Rambo aspect were removed from the equation.


And lumping all gun owners into the category of mindless killing machines isn't a shallow retort?

California already has a law in place limiting the number of rounds in a magazine and it is clear it does not work.
 
User avatar
MassAppeal
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:02 pm

alfa164 wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
You're not naive guns just aren't part of your culture. Just like your drinking culture or soccer culture isnt like our sports culture. We have a much more recent need for reliance on guns than you have. Many people still rely on them for protection and work every day. All cultures don't have to be the same.


Guns - like most political flash-points - are not really a part of American "culture". They are an obsession for a small but vocal minority of the electorate... although sales-promoting groups like the NRA would try to convince you otherwise.


If there are millions of people partaking in an activity- all across the USA- then that means its part of the wider culture. In fact its a pretty unique aspect of American culture not found in other places. Between 30% and 40% of houses have guns in them. That's not a small group obsessed with guns. Many of them belong to clubs or ranges where they practice to remain safe and competent. It absolutely is a social thing for many.

Do you really believe there's not a widespread hunting and shooting culture in the USA? You all must live in urban areas because as soon as you go into the suburbs and rural areas it really is a common thing to see.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:18 pm

Wacker1000 wrote:
And lumping all gun owners into the category of mindless killing machines isn't a shallow retort?
I didn't lump all gun owners into any category, I said that if you remove the Rambo aspect the problem would disappear. The bulk of the nut cases would lose interest and go back to wife beating, raising pit bulls or whatever else suits their fancy.

Wacker1000 wrote:
California already has a law in place limiting the number of rounds in a magazine and it is clear it does not work.
First off, no state law can be really effective because we have open borders between states.

California's large magazine law has worked as well as such a half way measure can be expected to. There have been a lot of guns confiscated from criminals as a result of this law and more than a few have been sent to prison over parole violations resulting from this law.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3058
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:15 pm

MassAppeal wrote:
If there are millions of people partaking in an activity- all across the USA- then that means its part of the wider culture. In fact its a pretty unique aspect of American culture not found in other places. Between 30% and 40% of houses have guns in them. That's not a small group obsessed with guns. Many of them belong to clubs or ranges where they practice to remain safe and competent. It absolutely is a social thing for many.


You are fudging your percentages: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mon ... 0e4299ada8

A much higher percentage of Americans have eaten sushi. Does that make sushi a part of "American culture"?
https://www.fastcasual.com/news/32-of-a ... rvey-says/

More than twice as many Americans have herpes than have guns. Can we claim that herpes are a part of "American culture"? That would surely impress the world!
https://www.livescience.com/61681-herpe ... tates.html

And almost twice as many Americans struggle to afford basic health care and housing. Are illness and homelessness something we can brag about as "the American culture"?
https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/ar ... asic-needs



Owning a firearm is not "partaking in an activity"; is is owning an object. Citizens who keep a weapon for protection, without going out and shooting regularly... collectors who include firearms in their hobby... individuals who inherit a prized rifle... these are far different from the obsessive gun advocates and gun-promoters from the NRA and their ilk.

No... an assault-style rifle is not representative of "American culture"... and let's hope it never does become a part of it.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
User avatar
MassAppeal
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:05 pm

alfa164 wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
If there are millions of people partaking in an activity- all across the USA- then that means its part of the wider culture. In fact its a pretty unique aspect of American culture not found in other places. Between 30% and 40% of houses have guns in them. That's not a small group obsessed with guns. Many of them belong to clubs or ranges where they practice to remain safe and competent. It absolutely is a social thing for many.


You are fudging your percentages: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mon ... 0e4299ada8

A much higher percentage of Americans have eaten sushi. Does that make sushi a part of "American culture"?
https://www.fastcasual.com/news/32-of-a ... rvey-says/

More than twice as many Americans have herpes than have guns. Can we claim that herpes are a part of "American culture"? That would surely impress the world!
https://www.livescience.com/61681-herpe ... tates.html

And almost twice as many Americans struggle to afford basic health care and housing. Are illness and homelessness something we can brag about as "the American culture"?
https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/ar ... asic-needs



Owning a firearm is not "partaking in an activity"; is is owning an object. Citizens who keep a weapon for protection, without going out and shooting regularly... collectors who include firearms in their hobby... individuals who inherit a prized rifle... these are far different from the obsessive gun advocates and gun-promoters from the NRA and their ilk.

No... an assault-style rifle is not representative of "American culture"... and let's hope it never does become a part of it.


I'm not talking about assault rifles. You all are the ones bringing the nutjobs into this. I'm talking about normal American gun culture that does exist. I'm talking about guns in general. Most gun owners don't own machine guns. Most of them are normal people who want to have a gun for whatever reason. Mistaking them for raving lunatics is your problem.

The fact is there are millions of gun owners and users in the USA. To deny there is a healthy percentage of Americans (millions) who shoot guns, hunt, and partake in shooting tournaments and things like that is disingenuous. There are meetups in every city in the USA where people get together and talk about all manor of guns. That is a gun culture. Its not rare and its not a tiny fraction of people- its millions of people.

And yes, those examples you gave are part of our culture. There can be bad aspects to a nation's culture- mass shootings, racism, etc. And I don't think calling the terrible healthcare issue in the USA as part of our culture is odd either. Negative aspects of society is part of our culture too. Everyone deals with it, has experiences with it, talks about it and makes big life decisions based around the broken system- that's part of our wider culture.

Do you really deny that there is a certain percentage of the population that uses guns as part of a hobby, work, or recreation? Are people who go hunting or shooting as a hobby crazed gun nuts?
 
alfa164
Posts: 3058
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:14 pm

MassAppeal wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
I'm talking about normal American gun culture that does exist.


MassAppeal wrote:
Do you really deny that there is a certain percentage of the population that uses guns as part of a hobby, work, or recreation? Are people who go hunting or shooting as a hobby crazed gun nuts?


Ahhh... another straw man argument. Where did I deny "a certain percentage of the population" didn't use (or have) guns? You obviously didn't read the links; yes, there is a certain percentage - about 20% - who own guns. I pointed that out to you already.

Yes, an American "gun culture" does exist, but to claim it is a basis of "American culture" is false. There is a difference...
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:20 pm

MassAppeal wrote:
The fact is there are millions of gun owners and users in the USA. To deny there is a healthy percentage of Americans (millions) who shoot guns, hunt, and partake in shooting tournaments and things like that is disingenuous.

How about if you drop the disingenuous vague innuendos and go to real numbers with citations? In a country of 325 million, 1% of the people can be counted as "millions".
 
User avatar
MassAppeal
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:24 pm

alfa164 wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
I'm talking about normal American gun culture that does exist.


MassAppeal wrote:
Do you really deny that there is a certain percentage of the population that uses guns as part of a hobby, work, or recreation? Are people who go hunting or shooting as a hobby crazed gun nuts?


Ahhh... another straw man argument. Where did I deny "a certain percentage of the population" didn't use (or have) guns? You obviously didn't read the links; yes, there is a certain percentage - about 20% - who own guns. I pointed that out to you already.

Yes, an American "gun culture" does exist, but to claim it is a basis of "American culture" is false. There is a difference...


Yes, I read the links. I was going to link your first source in my original text but it had no scientific sources so I didn't. Its not a straw man argument- that's not what that word means. You implied the gun culture was a tiny aspect of our culture, which it isn't. It plays a huge part in the lives of many millions of people- normal people who support gun laws like you and I do.

I never made a claim about it being the basis of American culture. Go read my words- its PART of American culture. Its a very unique and easily identifiable aspect of our culture. Look at how many people from Europe are obsessed with talking about that unique aspect of American culture.
 
User avatar
MassAppeal
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:25 pm

salttee wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
The fact is there are millions of gun owners and users in the USA. To deny there is a healthy percentage of Americans (millions) who shoot guns, hunt, and partake in shooting tournaments and things like that is disingenuous.

How about if you drop the disingenuous vague innuendos and go to real numbers with citations? In a country of 325 million, 1% of the people can be counted as "millions".


You think 1% of Americans own guns?
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:32 pm

MassAppeal wrote:
You implied the gun culture was a tiny aspect of our culture, which it isn't. It plays a huge part in the lives of many millions of people- normal people who support gun laws like you and I do.

I never made a claim about it being the basis of American culture. Go read my words- its PART of American culture. Its a very unique and easily identifiable aspect of our culture. Look at how many people from Europe are obsessed with talking about that unique aspect of American culture.
Thank you for sharing your 'feelings with us. No go get some facts. Not everyone who owns a gun is part of your imagined (unique and easily identifiable) "gun culture". How many gun owners see guns as an important or even significant portion of their life?

With citations please not just your feelings on the matter.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:35 pm

MassAppeal wrote:
salttee wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
The fact is there are millions of gun owners and users in the USA. To deny there is a healthy percentage of Americans (millions) who shoot guns, hunt, and partake in shooting tournaments and things like that is disingenuous.

How about if you drop the disingenuous vague innuendos and go to real numbers with citations? In a country of 325 million, 1% of the people can be counted as "millions".


You think 1% of Americans own guns?
I am asking you what you think!
I am asking you for more than just your feelings.
 
User avatar
MassAppeal
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:39 pm

salttee wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
You implied the gun culture was a tiny aspect of our culture, which it isn't. It plays a huge part in the lives of many millions of people- normal people who support gun laws like you and I do.

I never made a claim about it being the basis of American culture. Go read my words- its PART of American culture. Its a very unique and easily identifiable aspect of our culture. Look at how many people from Europe are obsessed with talking about that unique aspect of American culture.
Thank you for sharing your 'feelings with us. No go get some facts. Not everyone who owns a gun is part of your imagined (unique and easily identifiable) "gun culture". How many gun owners see guns as an important or even significant portion of their life?

With citations please not just your feelings on the matter.


Where did I say everyone who owns guns takes part in that culture? You are putting words into my mouth.

Where did YOU get your 1% claim? How many Americans do you think own guns?

There were 36 million hunting permits issued last year- most of those issued to people who use firearms to hunt. I don't know if you know any hunters but all the hunters I know are pretty normal people and are passionate about marksmanship, safety, and firearms in general. They have forums just like this one talking about their hobby.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/253 ... in-the-us/

Here's a scientific study on gun ownership and attitudes: Large percentages of Americans own guns. Many see themselves owning one in the future. Most gun owners shoot at least yearly.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/ ... ownership/

Here's another source confirming a huge percentage of Americans own guns.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/22/us/g ... urvey.html

You are being phony.
 
User avatar
MassAppeal
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:42 pm

salttee wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
salttee wrote:
How about if you drop the disingenuous vague innuendos and go to real numbers with citations? In a country of 325 million, 1% of the people can be counted as "millions".


You think 1% of Americans own guns?
I am asking you what you think!
I am asking you for more than just your feelings.


You throw out a bogus figure and then ask me to prove its correct? You're not a very sharp fellow are you?

I've said over and over what the facts are- there are millions of totally normal gun owners in the USA and many of them take part in the wider gun culture in the USA. Some shoot for fun, some hunt, many talk with friends and people online about all manner of firearms. That's a gun culture.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:51 pm

MassAppeal wrote:
Where did YOU get your 1% claim? How many Americans do you think own guns?
You are being phony.

You say the "millions of people are part of your imagined gun culture. You have no facts, hard numbers or citations. So I responded: "In a country of 325 million, 1% of the people can be counted as "millions". f you still don't get it ask your mom to explain it to you.

Or ask the moderators to remove it as you like to do when you lose arguments that you start.
 
User avatar
MassAppeal
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:54 pm

salttee wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
Where did YOU get your 1% claim? How many Americans do you think own guns?
You are being phony.

You say the "millions of people are part of your imagined gun culture. You have no facts, hard numbers or citations. So I responded: "In a country of 325 million, 1% of the people can be counted as "millions". f you still don't get it ask your mom to explain it to you.

Or ask the moderators to remove it as you like to do when you lose arguments that you start.


" "In a country of 325 million, 1% of the people can be counted as "millions". f you still don't get it ask your mom to explain it to you."

Yeah, millions of people. That's a lot of people to be involved in an activity.
 
User avatar
MassAppeal
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:55 pm

salttee wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
Where did YOU get your 1% claim? How many Americans do you think own guns?
You are being phony.

You say the "millions of people are part of your imagined gun culture. You have no facts, hard numbers or citations. So I responded: "In a country of 325 million, 1% of the people can be counted as "millions". f you still don't get it ask your mom to explain it to you.

Or ask the moderators to remove it as you like to do when you lose arguments that you start.


Oh, and I've never ever flagged a post for deletion. I detest censorship of any kind.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:00 pm

MassAppeal wrote:
There were 36 million hunting permits issued last year- most of those issued to people who use firearms to hunt. I don't know if you know any hunters but all the hunters I know are pretty normal people and are passionate about marksmanship, safety, and firearms in general. They have forums just like this one talking about their hobby.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/253 ... in-the-us/


Many of those 36 million were cases of one person getting more than one permit or stamp. So the 36 million figure is an exaggeration of the actual number of hunters there are.

You can get some of the base numbers here: https://wsfrprograms.fws.gov/subpages/l ... 202017.pdf
Last edited by salttee on Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: PWMRamper, speedygonzales, THS214 and 61 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos