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Kiwirob
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Security guard with a gun shot by police

Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:35 pm

Mall security guard stops shooter, has him restrained on the ground waiting for the police, then is shot dead by police when they arrive. It’s a dangerous business being one of those good guys with a gun.

I wonder how this would translate to a school situation where armed teachers are gunned down by first responders mistaking them for the shooter.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... ?CMP=fb_gu
Last edited by SQ22 on Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title was misleading
 
johns624
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:56 pm

Some cops just want to shoot somebody...anybody.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:17 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
It’s a dangerous business being one of those good guys with a gun.


Sadly, Jemel Roberson failed to meet one of the most crucial 'good guy' criteira - he was black. Black man with a gun = bad guy. Sad but seen all too often.
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:29 pm

Kinda confused on the point of this thread... "good guy with a gun" refers to some random armed, licensed citizen, this guy was a security guard, as you point out.

I know many (most?) here are not ok with concealed carry, but are you also against licensed and trained armed security guards?

RIP to the guard, seems like the cops really dropped the ball on this one. Nice typo in the title btw ;)
 
NIKV69
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:40 pm

scbriml wrote:

Sadly, Jemel Roberson failed to meet one of the most crucial 'good guy' criteira - he was black. Black man with a gun = bad guy. Sad but seen all too often.


Generalize much?

Another thread destined for locking. In before.
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Aaron747
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:01 am

NIKV69 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Sadly, Jemel Roberson failed to meet one of the most crucial 'good guy' criteira - he was black. Black man with a gun = bad guy. Sad but seen all too often.


Generalize much?

Another thread destined for locking. In before.


A sentiment of 'this outcome was ridiculous - let's see what the investigation yields' would have been nice...oh well
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MaverickM11
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:11 am

I'm sure the NRA will rush to his defense as fast as they rushed to Philando Castile's defense. Which is not at all. I wonder why :scratchchin:
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Tugger
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:30 am

The reality of this story is that it absolutely begs the question of "good guy with a gun" that the NRA and its supporters trot out there about how people can be protected by the 2nd Amendment and bad guys (with guns or not). And the reality is this:

How does law enforcement know who is the good guy with the gun? Guard or not, when someone NOT police is holding a gun on someone and the situation is not known, are the police supposed to wait and clarify the situation or immediately take down the person with the gun, especially if it is aimed at another person?

What clear direction do we hold as a rule for the start of all situations?

I say shoot the person with the gun, then sort things out later.

What say you?

Tugg
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Aesma
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:32 am

Next step in the US will be people routinely wearing bulletproof vests...
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ER757
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:35 am

Tugger wrote:
The reality of this story is that it absolutely begs the question of "good guy with a gun" that the NRA and its supporters trot out there about how people can be protected by the 2nd Amendment and bad guys (with guns or not). And the reality is this:

How does law enforcement know who is the good guy with the gun? Guard or not, when someone NOT police is holding a gun on someone and the situation is not known, are the police supposed to wait and clarify the situation or immediately take down the person with the gun, especially if it is aimed at another person?

What clear direction do we hold as a rule for the start of all situations?

I say shoot the person with the gun, then sort things out later.

What say you?

Tugg


Pretty sure the theory is good guy with a gun shoots and kills bad guy with a gun before LEO's even show up. So this poor guy did the wrong thing, held the bad guy at bay until police arrived. Should have offed him right from the start - *Sarcasm now off*
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:09 am

Tugger wrote:
at another person?

What clear direction do we hold as a rule for the start of all situations?

I say shoot the person with the gun, then sort things out later.

What say you?

Tugg

I'm not sure honestly, I thought it would be along the lines of the police coming in and telling everyone to drop their weapons and after compliance, they'd sort everything out. I'm sure your mileage may vary greatly.


But again, I don't understand the direction the thread is going. Are people against trained armed security guards? That is kind of insane. This wasn't some rando that was concealed carrying....
 
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notaxonrotax
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:58 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:

But again, I don't understand the direction the thread is going....


This thread illustrates perfectly why playing "the good guy with the gun" can be a dangerous hobby!
You know, the proverbial "packing Samaritan"; so often used as an argument by the NRA and other triggerhappy looneys.

It is irrelevant whether this guy actually worked there as a security guard or not.
This shows that being armed, though with good intentions; can lead to tragic misunderstandings and once again proves that the amount of guns is an issue in the USA.

I am awaiting your "firearms are not the issue, people are" line.
Hey, USA wants guns......and therefore accepts the incredible high "death by lead" rate as part of that deal. Enjoy, folks! You will have to excuse me for running out of sympathy.

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Kiwirob
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:03 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Kinda confused on the point of this thread... "good guy with a gun" refers to some random armed, licensed citizen, this guy was a security guard, as you point out.


They don't say if he was in uniform or not. If he was in uniform then the cops who shot him should be charged, if he wasn't in uniform than he's 'a good guy with a gun', who was shot doing what the NRA, Trump and supporters of guns insist is the only way to stop the massacres, armed citizens solving or containing the problem before police arrive. This doesn't bode well for arming teachers, and other armed private citizens when cops just assume anyone with a gun is a threat so they shoot them.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:04 am

notaxonrotax wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:

But again, I don't understand the direction the thread is going....


This thread illustrates perfectly why playing "the good guy with the gun" can be a dangerous hobby!
You know, the proverbial "packing Samaritan"; so often used as an argument by the NRA and other triggerhappy looneys.

It is irrelevant whether this guy actually worked there as a security guard or not.
This shows that being armed, though with good intentions; can lead to tragic misunderstandings and once again proves that the amount of guns is an issue in the USA.

Yeah, sure, I know that's what he's getting at, but look at the original post. It's almost as if he's mocking the concept of armed security guards (that actually probably prevented a massacre.) I don't know, his point seems forced and a stretch when there are probably dozens of better ways of arguing against concealed carry.


notaxonrotax wrote:
I am awaiting your "firearms are not the issue, people are" line.


Well you're going to be waiting a pretty long time because that line is stupid. Of course we have a gun problem in America
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:05 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:

But again, I don't understand the direction the thread is going. Are people against trained armed security guards? That is kind of insane. This wasn't some rando that was concealed carrying....


The article doesn't mention if he was in uniform or not.If he wasn't in uniform then he'd be a rando that was concealed carrying, that's the direct this thread is going.

Or its simply the police saw a black man with a gun and shot him, which triggers the next issue racial profiling.
 
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seb146
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:16 am

NIKV69 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Sadly, Jemel Roberson failed to meet one of the most crucial 'good guy' criteira - he was black. Black man with a gun = bad guy. Sad but seen all too often.


Generalize much?

Another thread destined for locking. In before.


It's kinda the point, though. Gun nuts and NRA fan boys are always going on and on about how we just need more good guys with gun. Well, it happened. A good guy with a gun. And police gunned him down.
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:16 am

Kiwirob wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
Kinda confused on the point of this thread... "good guy with a gun" refers to some random armed, licensed citizen, this guy was a security guard, as you point out.


They don't say if he was in uniform or not. If he was in uniform then the cops who shot him should be charged, if he wasn't in uniform than he's 'a good guy with a gun', who was shot doing what the NRA, Trump and supporters of guns insist is the only way to stop the massacres, armed citizens solving or containing the problem before police arrive. This doesn't bode well for arming teachers, and other armed private citizens when cops just assume anyone with a gun is a threat so they shoot them.


I mean there are like a thousand reasons to argue against arming a bunch of teachers, I'm generally against it, though in practice, I don't see it going comically wrong every single time (oh no, school shooter! Let me grab my gun to stop him! Oh shucks I just got shot by the SWAT team that instantly appeared and gave no instructions for me to put the gun down!)

Probably need to wait for details (another reason not to sarcastically make a point right away) because it sounds like a freak accident or extreme negligence. I don't find outliers as good arguments... outliers tend to have factors you can easily point to to defeat the argument. If, for example, the cop was trigger happy and criminally negligent, that does nothing to further the argument against concealed carry. The problem is the cop's trigger happiness and criminal negligence, not mistaken identity

seb146 wrote:
Well, it happened. A good guy with a gun. And police gunned him down.

Yeah! We should get rid of security guards, right?
 
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johnboy
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:22 am

NIKV69 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Sadly, Jemel Roberson failed to meet one of the most crucial 'good guy' criteira - he was black. Black man with a gun = bad guy. Sad but seen all too often.


Generalize much?

Another thread destined for locking. In before.
.

Only if you start talking smack.
 
vikkyvik
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Re: Security guard with a gun shot by police

Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:40 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
We should get rid of security guards, right?


You're the only one who has stated, or even really hinted, at that.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
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seb146
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:54 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Well, it happened. A good guy with a gun. And police gunned him down.

Yeah! We should get rid of security guards, right?


Not even close to the point.

There was an active shooter. Private security helped stop him. PRIVATE SECURITY was shot and killed. If this had been some random, law abiding citizen with a gun who happened to be Black, gun nuts would be as silent as they are now. But, this was a guard doing his job. And he was Black. And he was doing his job. And he was still gunned down.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
A3801000
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:12 pm

Aesma wrote:
Next step in the US will be people routinely wearing bulletproof vests...


Land of the free. Where you send the kids to school with one of these lovely 'BulletBlocker NIJ IIIA Bulletproof Junior Pack' or a 'BulletBlocker NIJ IIIA Bulletproof Survival Pack & Safety Kit'.
Good to have your kids well equipped for the weekly 'active shooter drill'.
But hey, the 2nd ;)




http://www.bulletblocker.com/bulletproo ... ction.html
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:50 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Well, it happened. A good guy with a gun. And police gunned him down.

Yeah! We should get rid of security guards, right?

You should get rid of all the firearms in your country. Only the police and the military should be allowed to carry guns. That would save an enormous amount of lives.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:12 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
The article doesn't mention if he was in uniform or not.If he wasn't in uniform then he'd be a rando that was concealed carrying, that's the direct this thread is going.

Or its simply the police saw a black man with a gun and shot him, which triggers the next issue racial profiling.

The uniform is pretty irrelevant. I don't think the NRA has ever required uniforms.
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Super80Fan
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Re: Security guard with a gun shot by police

Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:14 pm

The only solution here is to get rid of Blue ISIS. Blue ISIS is only good for killing people. generating revenue for the state, and ramping up crime statistics through their corruption.
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Ken777
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Re: Security guard with a gun shot by police

Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:17 pm

It's hard to classify this shooting.

Black guy with a gun is probably the most common reason.

Doesn't matter if he was in uniform or not.

Doesn't matter if he had capture the crook and was holding him for the police.

Doesn't matter that the cop was probably scared shitless and just pulled the trigger because he was "afraid for his life".

Doesn't matter that the cop needs to be fired and ALL of his guns are confiscated and he will not ever be allowed to have another.

This is a Typical NRA/Gun Lover Phuckup. Normal Second Amendment Killing of an Innocent.

We are stuck with the moat pathetic gun laws in the modern world. Live with it and pray that no one in your family is a victim of the insanity in this nation,
 
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scbriml
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:07 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Generalize much?


Hey, if the shoe fits...
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:06 am

Kiwirob wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
Kinda confused on the point of this thread... "good guy with a gun" refers to some random armed, licensed citizen, this guy was a security guard, as you point out.


They don't say if he was in uniform or not. If he was in uniform then the cops who shot him should be charged, if he wasn't in uniform than he's 'a good guy with a gun', who was shot doing what the NRA, Trump and supporters of guns insist is the only way to stop the massacres, armed citizens solving or containing the problem before police arrive. This doesn't bode well for arming teachers, and other armed private citizens when cops just assume anyone with a gun is a threat so they shoot them.


NPR filed this report citing what a State Agency said, and what witnesses have said:

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/14/66773807 ... ce-now-say

State Agency:
Roberson was in "plain black clothing with no markings readily identifying him as a Security Guard."Illinois State Police said that according to witness statements, an officer from the nearby village of Midlothian gave Roberson "multiple verbal commands to drop the gun and get on the ground before ultimately discharging his weapon and striking the subject." The agency said Roberson was in "plain black clothing with no markings readily identifying him as a Security Guard."

Witnesses statements:
Jakia Woods lives in a house adjacent to Manny's parking lot. She said officers already on the scene had asked Roberson to release the suspect, and Roberson was complying, when another officer came through the bar's back door."Before [Roberson] could get up off of him, the officer comes flying out this door gun up," Woods said Tuesday afternoon while standing on her porch. "He says, 'Get on the ground,' and before he says 'ground,' he fires the first shot."
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Ken777
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Re: Security guard with a gun shot by police

Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:27 am

White cop?

That should be sufficient to figure why the black security officer was killed.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Security guard with a gun shot by police

Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:41 am

vikkyvik wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Probably explaining my point pretty poorly, I don't even fully disagree with you.

But mainly, I'm confused with the "I told you so" attitude seen in this thread. Look, good guy has a gun and gets shot! Doesn't that sound like we're stating the "good guy" had no business having a gun?

Guess by all the one sided pushback, that's a no ;)

Whatever, can't win 'em all, probably was a crap point. Just seems like a pretty mean-spirited thread, almost like "ha! See? This poor guy died! Advances my point! 8-) ". Struck a nerve, and I don't think the supposedly super irresponsible cop killing a security guard is a good argument against anything (I'd stick to better cases.)

Like I was saying, I'm generally against concealed carry, at least without many restrictions and training
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Security guard with a gun shot by police

Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:41 am

this isn't a mean spirited thread, it's a discussion with various points of view. I am not against concealed carry. I am against nervous poorly trained cops keeping their jobs after they kill someone without good reason. That's the whole point, there are rarely charged with manslaughter, because all they have to say is i was afraid for my life. The system needs to change, so that cops stop shooting first and asking questions later.
 
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seb146
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:58 am

MartijnNL wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Well, it happened. A good guy with a gun. And police gunned him down.

Yeah! We should get rid of security guards, right?

You should get rid of all the firearms in your country. Only the police and the military should be allowed to carry guns. That would save an enormous amount of lives.


Martijn, there are a million shades of grey in the gun debate in the United States. There are weapons that should be only for military and police use. A huge majority of Americans (including me) do not want to ban all guns. That is never going to happen. I hope it does not.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Security guard with a gun shot by police

Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:59 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
vikkyvik wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Probably explaining my point pretty poorly, I don't even fully disagree with you.

But mainly, I'm confused with the "I told you so" attitude seen in this thread. Look, good guy has a gun and gets shot! Doesn't that sound like we're stating the "good guy" had no business having a gun?

Guess by all the one sided pushback, that's a no ;)

Whatever, can't win 'em all, probably was a crap point. Just seems like a pretty mean-spirited thread, almost like "ha! See? This poor guy died! Advances my point! 8-) ". Struck a nerve, and I don't think the supposedly super irresponsible cop killing a security guard is a good argument against anything (I'd stick to better cases.)

Like I was saying, I'm generally against concealed carry, at least without many restrictions and training


I think this just proves that good guys with guns are just as likely to end up as dead as the bad guys with guns. So why would you try to assist if you were said good guy with a gun when the first responders might shoot you dead, I'd sooner walk away and let whoever was doing the killing carry on rather then interject myself and possibly end up in the morgue.
 
WIederling
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:27 pm

seb146 wrote:
and police use. A huge majority of Americans (including me) do not want to ban all guns.


the subliminal hint here is that it is a Black vs White issue. No shades.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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DL717
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Re: Security guard with a gun shot by police

Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:32 pm

Jesus. You city dwellers are a hot mess when it comes to guns.
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Security guard with a gun shot by police

Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:45 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
I think this just proves that good guys with guns are just as likely to end up as dead as the bad guys with guns. So why would you try to assist if you were said good guy with a gun when the first responders might shoot you dead, I'd sooner walk away and let whoever was doing the killing carry on rather then interject myself and possibly end up in the morgue.

Why would I try to assist if I was a good guy with a gun?

I don't know, because if someone was shooting everyone and I had a gun, I would just stand there and let them shoot everyone because maybe, just maybe, if I tried to stop the guy the cops would arrive and shoot me without saying drop my weapon and blast me away immediately?

Maybe that's the difference between many of us. I mean it's impossible to say what I'd actually do, but if I did have a gun I definitely (think) I'd risk my life to save others even if I might die rather than run away and let others die. Thought that was a common human trait but I guess not

I'm also arguing how this one case is "checkmate" for all of time on being against concealed carry (which I am generally against.) It's one data point, and it is a bizarre case. If we made a thread of a good guy with a gun stopping a shooting, would that change everyone's mind? Of course not

And before I get a million replies, ***if*** I had a gun. I am not saying that I carry
 
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seb146
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:12 pm

WIederling wrote:
seb146 wrote:
and police use. A huge majority of Americans (including me) do not want to ban all guns.


the subliminal hint here is that it is a Black vs White issue. No shades.


Where was that said?
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WIederling
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:36 pm

seb146 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
seb146 wrote:
and police use. A huge majority of Americans (including me) do not want to ban all guns.


the subliminal hint here is that it is a Black vs White issue. No shades.


Where was that said?

Sorry, I munged the quoting and didn't backcheck what I posted:
seb146 wrote:
....Martijn, there are a million shades of grey in the gun debate i......
Murphy is an optimist
 
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johnboy
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Re: Security guard with a gun shot by police

Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:42 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
this isn't a mean spirited thread, it's a discussion with various points of view. I am not against concealed carry. I am against nervous poorly trained cops keeping their jobs after they kill someone without good reason. That's the whole point, there are rarely charged with manslaughter, because all they have to say is i was afraid for my life. The system needs to change, so that cops stop shooting first and asking questions later.


THANK YOU.
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Flighty
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Re: Security guard with a gun shot by police

Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:00 pm

"Good guy with a gun" decent band name. Or rap artist
 
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seb146
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Re: Good guy with a gun shot be police!

Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:00 am

WIederling wrote:
seb146 wrote:
WIederling wrote:

the subliminal hint here is that it is a Black vs White issue. No shades.


Where was that said?

Sorry, I munged the quoting and didn't backcheck what I posted:
seb146 wrote:
....Martijn, there are a million shades of grey in the gun debate i......


There are a very small handful who want a total ban on all guns period all the way to give guns to anyone for any reason. So, yes, there are a million shades of grey.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!

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