emperortk
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:52 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Exactly how does US government, run by whoever, affect a Kiwi? Are you materially worse off than under Clinton or Obama?

GF


For one thing, given the administration's positions on climate (withdrawal from Paris) and protecting the environment, everyone in the world is materially worse off. Trump's words, actions, and "policies" have many negative effects (material and otherwise) around the globe. How could it not be so when he is the so-called leader of the free world? But we are already way OT.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:12 pm

It is a well known fact that this island is not to be visited and to be kept away from. You can google it, wikipedia it, Youtube it and the info is right there. If the guy had done his homework he would have known what to expect.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:40 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Exactly how does US government, run by whoever, affect a Kiwi? Are you materially worse off than under Clinton or Obama? OK, Mitterrand lit off a bomb in Auckland Harbor, he effected you, somehow I don’t see chattering about the French PM here. Do you pay taxes here? Are you subject to US law there? What will he or the US Government possibly don’t effect you? If you don’t like our politics, move here, become a citizen and vote.

Tons of foreigners who cannot conceivably be effected by US policy have loads of opinions on subjects or politicians. It’s like beotching about the moon.

GF


Are you seriously asking that question? Have you never bothered reading a foreign newspaper or watching the BBC?

You’re showing as much ignorance as that American who became lunch.
 
c933103
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:04 pm

Mortyman wrote:
It is a well known fact that this island is not to be visited and to be kept away from. You can google it, wikipedia it, Youtube it and the info is right there. If the guy had done his homework he would have known what to expect.

The guy know all this, and then reached the conclusion that the island is a "Satan stronghold" and he "need to" bring Christianity there.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:19 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Exactly how does US government, run by whoever, affect a Kiwi? Are you materially worse off than under Clinton or Obama? OK, Mitterrand lit off a bomb in Auckland Harbor, he effected you, somehow I don’t see chattering about the French PM here. Do you pay taxes here? Are you subject to US law there? What will he or the US Government possibly don’t effect you? If you don’t like our politics, move here, become a citizen and vote.

Tons of foreigners who cannot conceivably be effected by US policy have loads of opinions on subjects or politicians. It’s like beotching about the moon.

GF


Are you seriously asking that question? Have you never bothered reading a foreign newspaper or watching the BBC?

You’re showing as much ignorance as that American who became lunch.


If I’d read about this clown before he went, I could have predicted his very predictable death. Sentinel Island has a long reputation asanI contacted people who act aggressively.

I actually read loads of foreign press, foreign news, have traveled to 70 countries including yours. I have a library of non-fiction, mostly history, logged at about 5,00 volumes. Due to international business, I have contacts in Dubai, Australia, Canada and the UK. An acquaintance of French-African descent called me “the most open, non-American American he ever met”. OTOH, let’s face it Trump’s actions have very little impact inside the US, none outside the US unless he goes to war somewhere. Day to day life here for me hadn’t changed and I’ll bet your life hasn’t been adversely impacted since Jan 20, 2017. He’s largely kept most promises—taxes lowered, economy growing better than in 8 years, Korea at least we’re talking, ISIS largely defeated, no more foreign excursions, new NAFTA agreement. If that’s in error, provide evidence. Now, his character and combativeness come direct from New York City. I find Trump personally a buffoon, narcissistic, but what politician isn’t, unnecessarily loud, angry and silly. But, life goes on, we survived worse times.

GF
 
BarfBag
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:08 pm

All foreign visitors are required to register with the Foreigner Regional Registration Office if visiting on long term visas.
Proselytization is strictly forbidden for those traveling on a tourist visa; only those traveling on specific missionary visas are permitted to do so, and only in particular places.
All non-Indians visiting the Andaman and Nicobar Islands chain need a Restricted Areas Permit (RAP). Travel to the Andamans on a religious visa is not permitted.
Travel to the Sentinel Islands for tourism purposes is forbidden.

The fool essentially broke every law he was required to adhere to, probably bribed people to take him to a place where he's forbidden access, and got himself killed for his stupidity.

The Sentinelese are not stupid. They and the Jarawa tribe have been negatively impacted by human contact due to their lack of immunity to diseases. They even attacked the Indian Navy checking on them after the 2004 tsunami. I hope they disposed of his body effectively to prevent any impact on them.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:53 pm

I'm not sure how the guy thought he would be able to communicate with them. No doubt that they wouldn't understand a word spoken by anyone other than those on the island. It boils down to them being a group of violent inbreds They killed two fishermen who had gotten lost about a decade ago. I guess some of you think those fishermen deserved to die too?
 
BarfBag
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:02 pm

The fishermens' death was an accident. John Chau paid the price of his own stupidity and the complete and utter disregard for the law of the country he was in, with his life. The idiot went in there, got shot with a hail of arrows, runs off, then goes right back and gets shot all over again and gets killed the second time. There's absolutely no comparison between him and fishermen getting lost in the darkness.

I have zero sympathy for him. He has done us Indians a favour by vividly demonstrating how dangerous and unreasonable Christian fundamentalists can be, and how we must keep them out better. They will ignore our laws, go wherever they please, get in the faces of people who want nothing to do with them, and must be kept out of the country before they cause the kind of damage they inflicted upon the Americas.
 
mdsh00
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:27 pm

Nothing annoys me more than the self-righteousness and and arrogance of these so called "missionaries.". Back in college I recall frequently having my space invaded (walking to class or studying outside on campus) by these people wanting to tell me about Jesus. This being UCLA, a "liberal" place.

Not to mention they would have a flippant attitude towards my Hindu beliefs. Yeah great way to win someone over by trashing their belief system and telling them they're gonna go to hell because they haven't "accepted the word of Christ."
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:00 am

Yeah great way to win someone over by trashing their belief system


Why not, it works for most political debates on the web—my opposition is clearly insane and evil being the starting point. Insults like “redneck, knuckle draggers” followed by “libtards”. Clearly, divide and conquer the enemy has become the political tool of choice.

GF
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:19 am

mdsh00 wrote:
Nothing annoys me more than the self-righteousness and and arrogance of these so called "missionaries.". Back in college I recall frequently having my space invaded (walking to class or studying outside on campus) by these people wanting to tell me about Jesus. This being UCLA, a "liberal" place.

Not to mention they would have a flippant attitude towards my Hindu beliefs. Yeah great way to win someone over by trashing their belief system and telling them they're gonna go to hell because they haven't "accepted the word of Christ."

I respect all religions but it does seem like Christians are much more pushy. Ive walked around campus in college and became invisible to all the evangelists when I told them i was happy being Catholic lol.

The time before last when I was in Japan, a Buddhist couple invited me and my friend into a Buddhist temple to check it out. They were very nice but spoke bad English and I couldnt understand them so I just nodded and said yes the whole time as we went through the motions of a Buddhist ritual and prayers. And thats how I almost got converted to Buddhism!
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Okie
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:46 am

Well Kudos to the Sentinelese.
They have strong borders, hell of an immigration policy and profound consequences for those who violate. :shock:


Okie
 
Flighty
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:18 am

He was clearly very mentally ill and narcissistic. His death was in some way inevitable. It was caused by the diseases that I suspect he had although I am not a doctor
 
bagoldex
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:45 am

Flighty wrote:
He was clearly very mentally ill and narcissistic. His death was in some way inevitable. It was caused by the diseases that I suspect he had although I am not a doctor


You could call it an addiction. Christianity has probably caused more deaths than heroin.
 
LMP737
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:49 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Why not, it works for most political debates on the web—my opposition is clearly insane and evil being the starting point. Insults like “redneck, knuckle draggers” followed by “libtards”. Clearly, divide and conquer the enemy has become the political tool of choice.

GF


It's kinda bizzare when you think about. Trying to convince someone that their fairy tale is better than your's.
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:13 am

I have learned that, as noble savages, the Sentinelese have a right to self-defense and to stand their ground against invasion by those of white privilege. Now, if the learned would apply the same rights to us civilized types that face ignoble savages trying to commit violence. But, no, turn over your guns and the government will protect you.

GF
 
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stl07
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:47 am

Pathak said seven people have been arrested for helping Chau arrange his illegal trip, including five fishermen, the friend and a local tourist guide.

At least the Indian government did the right thing
 
johnboy
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:05 am

He’s largely kept most promises—taxes lowered, economy growing better than in 8 years, Korea at least we’re talking, ISIS largely defeated, no more foreign excursions, new NAFTA agreement. If that’s in error, provide evidence. Now, his character and combativeness come direct from New York City. I find Trump personally a buffoon, narcissistic, but what politician isn’t, unnecessarily loud, angry and silly. But, life goes on, we survived worse times.

GF


We must live in different Americas. Trump had nothing to do with Isis, and we’re talking to Korea (I assume you mean NK)? The NYT just released sat photos of new nuclear testing sites - hmm, glad he and Kim are good Buddies. Economy growing better than in 8 years (I assume you’re talking about Obama’s tenure)...ludicrous thinking. No more foreign excursions (wait until Iran becomes enemy no. 1)

If you’re the most open minded American that America produces god help us.
 
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TSS
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:53 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm not sure how the guy thought he would be able to communicate with them. No doubt that they wouldn't understand a word spoken by anyone other than those on the island.

I was wondering about that myself.

TTailedTiger wrote:
It boils down to them being a group of violent inbreds.

No, it boils down to them being a sovereign state with a harshly enforced zero tolerance policy on visitation that is well-documented and widely publicized, which the surrounding country has passed laws to respect. Yet this guy felt that none of that applied to him and that he'd be fine going there anyway.

TTailedTiger wrote:
They killed two fishermen who had gotten lost about a decade ago. I guess some of you think those fishermen deserved to die too?

To be clear, the two fishermen weren't lost, they had gotten drunk on palm wine and allowed their boat to drift too near the island. Since there were only two men on the boat, I think it's fair to assume they were local fisherman who would have been well aware of these islander's attitude towards outsiders and who could have taken any number of precautions to avoid getting anywhere near that island without their full wits about them.
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WIederling
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:14 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I have learned that, as noble savages, the Sentinelese have a right to self-defense and to stand their ground against invasion by those of white privilege. Now, if the learned would apply the same rights to us civilized types that face ignoble savages trying to commit violence. But, no, turn over your guns and the government will protect you.

GF

Thank you for showing us the proper view on things.
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Airstud
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:08 am

Best I can tell, Chau never had any children.

Which means he at least gets a Darwin Award out of all of this.
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notaxonrotax
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:27 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
An acquaintance of French-African descent called me “the most open, non-American American he ever met”.


Haha, obviously the person of French-African descent hadn`t actually talked to many Americans at that stage.

It is very naive to think that Trump`s obsession with coal mining and his absolute disregard for the environment does NOT affect every person on this planet, including remote tribes on small islands by the way.

And if you make claims about Trump`s so called accomplishments, please provide evidence.
The onus is not on others to disprove your made up statements.

As for the religious nut on the island, he met his cupid.
Love hurts.....


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Kno
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:59 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
It's like some of you are talking about animals and this guy should have known better than to go in their cage or sanctuary. Yes he should have known better and kept out. But these are humans we are talking about and they have refused to to join the rest of the world and act civilized. Killing someone is only justified if they pose an immediate threat to you. I firmly believe in being able to defend myself using lethal force but if I came out into my living room and saw a stranger in my house my first reaction would be to ask what they are doing in my home and then tell them to get out. Only if they refuse or become violent would I take further action.


Sounds like you didn’t read up on the history of this tribe posted earlier in this thread.

The last time they were welcoming to an outsider they were sexually abused and violated on multiple levels.

They don’t know any different of outsiders so why should they not perceive outsiders as a legitimate threat? More often than not in history, all over the world, the “civilized” come to natives and behave completely uncivilized.
 
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Berevoff
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:14 pm

That's what happens when you force your beliefs on others who might not see eye to eye.

He did it to himself.
 
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moo
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:26 pm

Berevoff wrote:
That's what happens when you force your beliefs on others who might not see eye to eye.

He did it to himself.


Except this has utterly nothing to do with his intentions - these tribes people kill visitors to their island on a pretty regular basis, and this guy was killed within moments of him stepping onto the beach for the third time (after being attacked and fleeing twice before). He may have had evangelical intentions but they were not the reason the tribesmen killed him - they killed him because he was there.

The tribesmen are very vocal about their intentions, and are regularly aggressive toward boats that get too close to a beach. He could have been an atheist anthropologist for all the tribesmen cared.

Yes, he was there because he wanted to evangelise to the tribesmen, but that wasn't the reason they killed him. Subtle but distinct difference.

This guy was an idiot, regardless of his faith.
 
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Tugger
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:34 pm

Yes, these tribes (just including all like them) are very fortunate, as almost any other time in human history, orders would just go in the and wipe them all out.

They are being allowed to exist "as is". That didn't happen for most of our existence.

Tugg
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TTailedTiger
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:44 pm

I'm still shocked to see people condoning their behavior. It wouldn't be tolerated in any civil society. I can't just stand in my driveway and pick off anyone that gets too close to my property.
 
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TSS
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:21 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm still shocked to see people condoning their behavior. It wouldn't be tolerated in any civil society. I can't just stand in my driveway and pick off anyone that gets too close to my property.

Correction: Their behavior wouldn't be tolerated in your idea of what constitutes a "civil society". However, in their idea of a "civil society", their actions are perfectly acceptable AND came with plenty of warning in the form of Mr. Chau having been shot at previously by the natives and he narrowly escaped alive on that occasion. Furthermore, you seem doggedly determined to impose "civilized", 21st century, suburban mores and rules of engagement on to a group of people that are not from the suburbs, are straight out of the Pre-Bronze age, and in most people's estimation are not at all "civilized". North Sentinel Island is their field and on or near it you have to play by their rules, and Rule #1 is If you land on or come too near this island you will be killed.
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moo
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:22 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm still shocked to see people condoning their behavior. It wouldn't be tolerated in any civil society. I can't just stand in my driveway and pick off anyone that gets too close to my property.


Well, in many places in the US you seemingly can - see "stand your ground" and "castle" laws...

But aside from that, the North Sentinelese are a sovereign nation, they can do what they want to people illegal landing on their shores. And its not as if their reactions arent very very well known.
 
vikkyvik
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:06 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm still shocked to see people condoning their behavior. It wouldn't be tolerated in any civil society. I can't just stand in my driveway and pick off anyone that gets too close to my property.


That's because you simply haven't looked at things from any different viewpoint than your own, or tried at all to understand why the events happened the way they did.

Also, "too close to my property" does not equal "on my property".
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:05 am

vikkyvik wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm still shocked to see people condoning their behavior. It wouldn't be tolerated in any civil society. I can't just stand in my driveway and pick off anyone that gets too close to my property.


That's because you simply haven't looked at things from any different viewpoint than your own, or tried at all to understand why the events happened the way they did.

Also, "too close to my property" does not equal "on my property".


From what I have read these primitives have shot at people while they are still on the water.
 
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moo
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:18 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
vikkyvik wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm still shocked to see people condoning their behavior. It wouldn't be tolerated in any civil society. I can't just stand in my driveway and pick off anyone that gets too close to my property.


That's because you simply haven't looked at things from any different viewpoint than your own, or tried at all to understand why the events happened the way they did.

Also, "too close to my property" does not equal "on my property".


From what I have read these primitives have shot at people while they are still on the water.


That's still their prerogative - they get to decide when "close" is "close enough".

The US just decided to tear gas people in another country - pretty fitting to be used as an example in this thread...
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:18 am

moo wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
vikkyvik wrote:

That's because you simply haven't looked at things from any different viewpoint than your own, or tried at all to understand why the events happened the way they did.

Also, "too close to my property" does not equal "on my property".


From what I have read these primitives have shot at people while they are still on the water.


That's still their prerogative - they get to decide when "close" is "close enough".

The US just decided to tear gas people in another country - pretty fitting to be used as an example in this thread...


I don't approve of that either.
 
BarfBag
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:38 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm still shocked to see people condoning their behavior. It wouldn't be tolerated in any civil society. I can't just stand in my driveway and pick off anyone that gets too close to my property.

Get off your high horse. In a civilized society, people follow the bloody law. The law of India says
a) "you absolutely cannot proselytize on a tourist visa"
b) "you cannot proselytize wherever you please while on a tourist visa - you do it in the specific places where you're permitted to go"
c) "you're absolutely forbidden from going to the Sentinel Islands regardless of what visa you have".

It's all written in English for foreigners. What does John Chau do ? Breaks ALL those laws and goes there. By law, his very presence on that island was illegal. His presence was also a physical danger to the people living there. The government forbade his presence there, and he STILL went there by means of bribery and subterfuge. End result - he's fish food.

What's even better is that he gave us a very good example of how dangerous Christian fundamentalists like him are, and why they need to be kept out of the country better. Bunch of crazed idiots who will not even obey the laws of the country they are in, and then their apologists go prattling on about 'civilized society'. What sort of civil society taught this fool to behave like this ?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:50 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm still shocked to see people condoning their behavior. It wouldn't be tolerated in any civil society. I can't just stand in my driveway and pick off anyone that gets too close to my property.


What is your alternative? Go in and arrest anyone there? I mean in a certain way they are locked in their island. You cannot judge people with a stone age like "lifestyle" in the same way as someone whom grew-up in a more advanced society. They do not want contact and we should all respect that, someone not respecting that, will bear the consequences.
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BarfBag
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:51 am

moo wrote:
Berevoff wrote:
That's what happens when you force your beliefs on others who might not see eye to eye.

He did it to himself.


Except this has utterly nothing to do with his intentions.

It has EVERYTHING to do with his intentions.

A guy on a tourist visa proselytizing: Illegal
Proselytizing in places other than where he's explicitly permitted to by prior visa application itinerary detail: Illegal
Being present in the Andamans without a RAP: Illegal
Being present in the Sentinel Islands under any circumstances: Illegal

The guy broke multiple laws - all written in plain English in Indian airports, immigration forms and elsewhere - to get where he was - a remote island in a corner of a remote island chain hours of flying away from mainland. He purposefully and with malicious intent, broke multiple Indian laws to get into the position that got him killed, and people have the gall to call the Sentinelese people uncivilized. The uncivilized one here is John Chau.
 
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Zeppi
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:17 am

BarfBag wrote:
What's even better is that he gave us a very good example of how dangerous Christian fundamentalists like him are, and why they need to be kept out of the country better. Bunch of crazed idiots who will not even obey the laws of the country they are in, and then their apologists go prattling on about 'civilized society'. What sort of civil society taught this fool to behave like this ?

Word!

I'd like to see religious advertising outlawed across Europe too, doesn't matter if it's the jesus types with a cross and bible or the beardy ones with quran in the pedestrian areas of larger cities, just get rid of them already! This stuff just has no place any more in a society that calls itself advanced and civilised.
Someone said that guy who visited Sentinel should've been locked in a rubber cell, well, that would go for all religious people then wouldn't it? Fearing an imaginary all powerful being, worshipping and talking to it? Sounds like textbook paranoid schizophrenia to me...

And print editions of religious books should really look like this :lol:

Image
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:49 am

This is a very interesting case and has spurred me to do cheap research on the island and people. At the end of the day the island is sovereign Indian territory and is subject to the laws of India. The Indian government should have the ability to retrieve, or grant the ability to another party to at least retrieve the body of Chau under peaceful circumstances, but with the ability to defend themselves.

US law allows some kind of self-governance and autonomy to the Native American territories, how do Indian laws for the similar compare/contrast?

Lastly, I totally respect other peoples religion but dont condone shoving it down other peoples throats nor breaking the laws of the land. But I do hope Chau rests in peace and that the Sentinelese have some kind of respect for the people they kill.
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moo
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:59 am

BarfBag wrote:
moo wrote:
Berevoff wrote:
That's what happens when you force your beliefs on others who might not see eye to eye.

He did it to himself.


Except this has utterly nothing to do with his intentions.

It has EVERYTHING to do with his intentions.

A guy on a tourist visa proselytizing: Illegal
Proselytizing in places other than where he's explicitly permitted to by prior visa application itinerary detail: Illegal
Being present in the Andamans without a RAP: Illegal
Being present in the Sentinel Islands under any circumstances: Illegal

The guy broke multiple laws - all written in plain English in Indian airports, immigration forms and elsewhere - to get where he was - a remote island in a corner of a remote island chain hours of flying away from mainland. He purposefully and with malicious intent, broke multiple Indian laws to get into the position that got him killed, and people have the gall to call the Sentinelese people uncivilized. The uncivilized one here is John Chau.


I don't disagree with any of your points, but you do miss mine.

The post I was replying to insinuated that he was *killed* because he was evangelising ("that's what happens when you force your beliefs on others who might not see eye to eye").

No, that wasn't why he was killed.

He was there because he wanted to evangelise, sure, but it wasn't his evangelising that the tribesmen took issue with - it was his mere presence.

His intentions got him killed because they put him there, sure, but his intentions were not why the North Sentinelese tribesmen killed him. Subtle but extremely important difference, and one worth making simply because of the people jumping on the anti-religious sentiment going around in here.
 
BarfBag
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:07 am

TWA772LR wrote:
The Indian government should have the ability to retrieve, or grant the ability to another party to at least retrieve the body of Chau under peaceful circumstances, but with the ability to defend themselves.

Heck no. Why should we waste our time and money on his dead body ? Or even let anyone else in there. Just the presence of people from elsewhere is dangerous to these tribes.

The man broke at least 4 different laws to put himself in a position to get killed. It's besides the point whether he was killed by Sentinelese or a salt water crocodile. Let his remains there be a reminder of the consequences of stupidity.

Defying the laws of the world's largest democracy and third biggest economy, is not a very good idea - especially when the laws in question are designed to keep you from getting killed.

The guys a completely irresponsible lunatic to break so many laws and go there, nearly get himself killed, escape and write panicky notes in his journal, and then to right back a second time, and get himself killed. I hope all those people who abetted his travel there took enough money from him to pay off the fines the Indian government apply on them, and still come out with a profit.
 
BarfBag
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:16 am

moo wrote:
The post I was replying to insinuated that he was *killed* because he was evangelising ("that's what happens when you force your beliefs on others who might not see eye to eye").

No, that wasn't why he was killed.

He was there because he wanted to evangelise, sure, but it wasn't his evangelising that the tribesmen took issue with - it was his mere presence.

His intentions got him killed because they put him there, sure, but his intentions were not why the North Sentinelese tribesmen killed him. Subtle but extremely important difference, and one worth making simply because of the people jumping on the anti-religious sentiment going around in here.

His evangelizing on a tourist visa is simply a demonstration of a pattern of illegal activity in the eyes of Indian law. In fact, not a single western poster on this thread acknowledged his illegal activities, which to me implies that every westerner posting here is either ignorant of Indian immigration law or thinks it's not something worth following, and instead talk about how 'uncivlized' the Sentinelese are. This has nothing to do with them. He might as well have been eaten by a croc; plenty of them in those parts - not a long way from Ramree Island.

Of course the Sentinelese didn't kill him because his religious message - it's not like they even knew what he was babbling. However, it IS their interpretation of his intentions that got him killed. Every documented record of the events state that after initially permitting him ashore, things quickly became acrimonious, and they warned him off once - he was shot at and injured. He went back AGAIN. This time their response was lethal.

There are no 'subtle differences' here. He riled them up once, and should have taken the hint of being shot at, to go away, paid a fine to Indian authorities and went home after apologizing profusely. But no, he wasn't merely a law breaker, but a moron with utter disregard for his life as well.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:19 am

BarfBag wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
The Indian government should have the ability to retrieve, or grant the ability to another party to at least retrieve the body of Chau under peaceful circumstances, but with the ability to defend themselves.

Heck no. Why should we waste our time and money on his dead body ? Or even let anyone else in there. Just the presence of people from elsewhere is dangerous to these tribes.

The man broke at least 4 different laws to put himself in a position to get killed. It's besides the point whether he was killed by Sentinelese or a salt water crocodile. Let his remains there be a reminder of the consequences of stupidity.

Defying the laws of the world's largest democracy and third biggest economy, is not a very good idea - especially when the laws in question are designed to keep you from getting killed.

The guys a completely irresponsible lunatic to break so many laws and go there, nearly get himself killed, escape and write panicky notes in his journal, and then to right back a second time, and get himself killed. I hope all those people who abetted his travel there took enough money from him to pay off the fines the Indian government apply on them, and still come out with a profit.

So even though Otto Warmbier was accused of breaking a law of North Korea, it was still ok for North Korea to put him into the state of (not so) well-being they did, which was pretty much death anyways because he didn't pull through?
You know all is right is the world when the only thing people worry about is if the president had sex with a pornstar.


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BestWestern
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:23 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
The guy was certainly a moron for going into the territory but I can't condone murder like some here appear to be doing.


Stand your ground against the Christian colonist
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BarfBag
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:27 am

TWA772LR wrote:
So even though Otto Warmbier was accused of breaking a law of North Korea, it was still ok for North Korea to put him into the state of (not so) well-being they did, which was pretty much death anyways because he didn't pull through?

I have no idea who that guy is and what North Korean law he broke, and have no desire to indulge in comparative argument, particularly when someone seeks to do something as ridiculously insulting as compare something that happened in India to something in North Korea. I'll stick to the facts of this case. The facts are:

*Indians* cannot go to the North Sentinel Islands. Foreigners cannot even be in the Andaman Islands chain in its entirety, without a RAP. There's been a relaxation of the RAP requirement, but travel to the Sentinel Islands is absolutely forbidden, for the safety of the Sentinelese and that of any visitors. That is the law of our land. It is there to keep you safe.

All this guy demonstrated is that if you're stupid enough to ignore laws designed to keep you safe, you might get killed. Same as ignoring 'don't text and drive'. He's not the first foreigner to die in the Andamans. There are regular shark and croc attacks there. It's not Miami beach. https://www.hindustantimes.com/more-lif ... gtspN.html
 
BestWestern
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:33 am

BarfBag wrote:
Get off your high horse. In a civilized society, people follow the bloody law. The law of India says
a) "you absolutely cannot proselytize on a tourist visa"
b) "you cannot proselytize wherever you please while on a tourist visa - you do it in the specific places where you're permitted to go"
c) "you're absolutely forbidden from going to the Sentinel Islands regardless of what visa you have".

It's all written in English for foreigners. What does John Chau do ? Breaks ALL those laws and goes there. By law, his very presence on that island was illegal. His presence was also a physical danger to the people living there. The government forbade his presence there, and he STILL went there by means of bribery and subterfuge. End result - he's fish food.

What's even better is that he gave us a very good example of how dangerous Christian fundamentalists like him are, and why they need to be kept out of the country better. Bunch of crazed idiots who will not even obey the laws of the country they are in, and then their apologists go prattling on about 'civilized society'. What sort of civil society taught this fool to behave like this ?


But but but.... He was white and superior. Laws don’t apply to white American ‘expats’.
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TWA772LR
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:39 am

BarfBag wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
So even though Otto Warmbier was accused of breaking a law of North Korea, it was still ok for North Korea to put him into the state of (not so) well-being they did, which was pretty much death anyways because he didn't pull through?

I have no idea who that guy is and what North Korean law he broke

You're no longer worth my time.
You know all is right is the world when the only thing people worry about is if the president had sex with a pornstar.


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BarfBag
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:41 am

TWA772LR wrote:
BarfBag wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
So even though Otto Warmbier was accused of breaking a law of North Korea, it was still ok for North Korea to put him into the state of (not so) well-being they did, which was pretty much death anyways because he didn't pull through?

I have no idea who that guy is and what North Korean law he broke, and have no desire to indulge in comparative

You're no longer worth my time.

Suit yourself. What did you expect, trying to insinuate that the biggest liberal democracy on the planet is comparable to an Orwellian police state by a 3rd generation despot ?

Next, you're going to demand the Indian Navy be deployed to catch a croc who ate an idiot who went swimming in those parts just because he happens to be American.
 
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unrave
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:57 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
This is a very interesting case and has spurred me to do cheap research on the island and people. At the end of the day the island is sovereign Indian territory and is subject to the laws of India. The Indian government should have the ability to retrieve, or grant the ability to another party to at least retrieve the body of Chau under peaceful circumstances, but with the ability to defend themselves.

US law allows some kind of self-governance and autonomy to the Native American territories, how do Indian laws for the similar compare/contrast?

Lastly, I totally respect other peoples religion but dont condone shoving it down other peoples throats nor breaking the laws of the land. But I do hope Chau rests in peace and that the Sentinelese have some kind of respect for the people they kill.

If you had researched properly you wouldn't have made the faulty association with Native American tribes. The Sentinelese are far more isolated and primitive. They have repeatedly refused to be contacted and the Indian government has clear laws which prohibit anyone from approaching them. What Chau did was nothing short of approaching a hyena lair to sell them the concept of religion.
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Dutchy
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:10 pm

BarfBag wrote:
In fact, not a single western poster on this thread acknowledged his illegal activities, which to me implies that every westerner posting here is either ignorant of Indian immigration law or thinks it's not something worth following, and instead talk about how 'uncivlized' the Sentinelese are.


Ho, ho, I suggest you read this thread again. Plenty of people, from all over the world, acknowledges that these people should be left alone and that it was his own fault that he was killed. Before posting this kind of nonsense, I suggest you first read up instead of posting your preconceived ideas about westerners.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
LMP737
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Re: American adventurer and Christian missionary killed by Isolated tribe

Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:27 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm still shocked to see people condoning their behavior. It wouldn't be tolerated in any civil society. I can't just stand in my driveway and pick off anyone that gets too close to my property.


So what do you suggest the Indian government should do? Issue arrest warrants and apprehend the guilty parties?
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