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A3801000
Posts: 556
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:02 pm

Glad to read that the EU once again extended the economic sanctions against Russia.
 
alfa164
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:53 am

Scorpius wrote:
And you dare to speak after such statements as if you have an independent opinion? LOL. Your reporters lie in almost every "review" - distorting the facts or openly misrepresenting. There somewhere was recently an article about the Kerch bridge, where a reporter told how he got into a winter storm on the bridge, and how there was paralyzed movement. Only here at the specified date, there was no storm. And the traffic on the bridge went without a hitch.


And you dare to speak after such statements as if you have an independent opinion? LOL. Your government lies in almost every question - distorting the facts or openly misrepresenting, and your reporters must parrot everything the government says - or they will be found dead. You claim somewhere there was recently a false article about the Kerch bridge, where a reporter told how he got into a winter storm on the bridge, and how there was paralyzed movement, but you provide no link and no facts. About the specified story, you have no proof. And you tell these stories without a hitch.

There; I fixed it for you.

;)
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Scorpius
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:45 am

A3801000 wrote:
I lived in Russia and I know what to expect from any kind of Media there. Just watch Rossija1 and you know what I am talking about. Just Putin propaganda.

And what is there on the channel "Russia 1"? Basic airtime it employs series, or any talk show. In which of them there is "just Putin's propaganda"?
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 8808
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:19 am

Scorpius wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
I lived in Russia and I know what to expect from any kind of Media there. Just watch Rossija1 and you know what I am talking about. Just Putin propaganda.

And what is there on the channel "Russia 1"? Basic airtime it employs series, or any talk show. In which of them there is "just Putin's propaganda"?


What are you trying to achieve? Nobody believes you because the facts are against you.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:18 am

alfa164 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
And you dare to speak after such statements as if you have an independent opinion? LOL. Your reporters lie in almost every "review" - distorting the facts or openly misrepresenting. There somewhere was recently an article about the Kerch bridge, where a reporter told how he got into a winter storm on the bridge, and how there was paralyzed movement. Only here at the specified date, there was no storm. And the traffic on the bridge went without a hitch.


And you dare to speak after such statements as if you have an independent opinion? LOL. Your government lies in almost every question - distorting the facts or openly misrepresenting, and your reporters must parrot everything the government says - or they will be found dead. You claim somewhere there was recently a false article about the Kerch bridge, where a reporter told how he got into a winter storm on the bridge, and how there was paralyzed movement, but you provide no link and no facts. About the specified story, you have no proof. And you tell these stories without a hitch.

There; I fixed it for you.

;)



Shame on you.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/moscows-3bn-bridge-sinks-kievs-export-trade-9d8z7whht

Given the written and the date of the article, the journalist who wrote it could "go on the Kerch bridge" in the period from 25.11.2018 to 02.12.2018.
Here is archive with data about weather in city of Kerch for the time:here is archive with data about weather in city of Kerch for the time:
http://o-pogode.ru/dnem-25-november-2018/kerch

There is also a video showing the stormy weather on the Kerch bridge 30.11.18 - the video clearly shows that there are no "traffic jams and a violent snowstorm":
https://youtu.be/INFrrkBrxfc
Thus, in this article Matthew Campbell lies even about such an easily verifiable fact as weather and traffic on the Kerch bridge.
 
Scorpius
Posts: 831
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:22 am

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
I lived in Russia and I know what to expect from any kind of Media there. Just watch Rossija1 and you know what I am talking about. Just Putin propaganda.

And what is there on the channel "Russia 1"? Basic airtime it employs series, or any talk show. In which of them there is "just Putin's propaganda"?


What are you trying to achieve? Nobody believes you because the facts are against you.


What facts are we talking about, Dutchy? You didn't give me a single fact. Come on, here's the schedule of the channel "Russia 1" for today, 14.12.2018: http://russia.tv/tvp
Please show me exactly where I can see "Just Putin propaganda."?
 
alfa164
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:28 am

Scorpius wrote:
There somewhere was recently an article about the Kerch bridge, where a reporter told how he got into a winter storm on the bridge, and how there was paralyzed movement. Only here at the specified date, there was no storm. And the traffic on the bridge went without a hitch.


Scorpius wrote:
Shame on you.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/moscows-3bn-bridge-sinks-kievs-export-trade-9d8z7whht
Given the written and the date of the article, the journalist who wrote it could "go on the Kerch bridge" in the period from 25.11.2018 to 02.12.2018.
Here is archive with data about weather in city of Kerch for the time:here is archive with data about weather in city of Kerch for the time:
http://o-pogode.ru/dnem-25-november-2018/kerch There is also a video showing the stormy weather on the Kerch bridge 30.11.18 - the video clearly shows that there are no "traffic jams and a violent snowstorm":https://youtu.be/INFrrkBrxfc Thus, in this article Matthew Campbell lies even about such an easily verifiable fact as weather and traffic on the Kerch bridge.


Oh, Scorpius #3... we love you because we love to laugh at you; you can't even get your story straight! "No storms"... but "a video showing the stormy weather".

:lol:

Do you wonder why the world laughs at the Russian propaganda machine? Failures! THe old KGB would never have made these mistakes; maybe little lilliPutin needs to go back to his old job...
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
anrec80
Posts: 1734
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:34 am

Dutchy wrote:
Love to visit it once more, sure. But I can't right now, I make it a habit not to go to occupied territory.


You can as well set these sentiments aside for a moment, come and chat with locals. I am sure you’ll return home with different understanding of who is the occupant in this Crimean matter
 
anrec80
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:35 am

A3801000 wrote:
Glad to read that the EU once again extended the economic sanctions against Russia.


So is Putin, believe it or not.
 
anrec80
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:44 am

tommy1808 wrote:
If Russia is "allowing" Ukraine through the Kerch Strait it is violating the treaty, There is now "allowing" involved. Ukraine has total navigational freedom there.

best regards
Thomas


There is nothing called “total freedom”. Kerch strait has always had such scheme - a ship must request her position in line from Port of Kerch captain and get a local pilot. This is nothing new at all. Nobody denies Ukraine their navigational freedom. Denial of the freedom would be a rejection in navigation through the strait, but that is yet to happen.
 
A3801000
Posts: 556
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:26 am

anrec80 wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
Glad to read that the EU once again extended the economic sanctions against Russia.


So is Putin, believe it or not.



Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
 
Scorpius
Posts: 831
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:52 am

alfa164 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
There somewhere was recently an article about the Kerch bridge, where a reporter told how he got into a winter storm on the bridge, and how there was paralyzed movement. Only here at the specified date, there was no storm. And the traffic on the bridge went without a hitch.


Scorpius wrote:
Shame on you.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/moscows-3bn-bridge-sinks-kievs-export-trade-9d8z7whht
Given the written and the date of the article, the journalist who wrote it could "go on the Kerch bridge" in the period from 25.11.2018 to 02.12.2018.
Here is archive with data about weather in city of Kerch for the time:here is archive with data about weather in city of Kerch for the time:
http://o-pogode.ru/dnem-25-november-2018/kerch There is also a video showing the stormy weather on the Kerch bridge 30.11.18 - the video clearly shows that there are no "traffic jams and a violent snowstorm":https://youtu.be/INFrrkBrxfc Thus, in this article Matthew Campbell lies even about such an easily verifiable fact as weather and traffic on the Kerch bridge.


Oh, Scorpius #3... we love you because we love to laugh at you; you can't even get your story straight! "No storms"... but "a video showing the stormy weather".

:lol:

Do you wonder why the world laughs at the Russian propaganda machine? Failures! THe old KGB would never have made these mistakes; maybe little lilliPutin needs to go back to his old job...


Show me in the video "traffic jams and a violent snowstorm".
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 8808
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:52 pm

Scorpius wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
And you dare to speak after such statements as if you have an independent opinion? LOL. Your reporters lie in almost every "review" - distorting the facts or openly misrepresenting. There somewhere was recently an article about the Kerch bridge, where a reporter told how he got into a winter storm on the bridge, and how there was paralyzed movement. Only here at the specified date, there was no storm. And the traffic on the bridge went without a hitch.


And you dare to speak after such statements as if you have an independent opinion? LOL. Your government lies in almost every question - distorting the facts or openly misrepresenting, and your reporters must parrot everything the government says - or they will be found dead. You claim somewhere there was recently a false article about the Kerch bridge, where a reporter told how he got into a winter storm on the bridge, and how there was paralyzed movement, but you provide no link and no facts. About the specified story, you have no proof. And you tell these stories without a hitch.

There; I fixed it for you.

;)



Shame on you.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/moscows-3bn-bridge-sinks-kievs-export-trade-9d8z7whht

Given the written and the date of the article, the journalist who wrote it could "go on the Kerch bridge" in the period from 25.11.2018 to 02.12.2018.
Here is archive with data about weather in city of Kerch for the time:here is archive with data about weather in city of Kerch for the time:
http://o-pogode.ru/dnem-25-november-2018/kerch

There is also a video showing the stormy weather on the Kerch bridge 30.11.18 - the video clearly shows that there are no "traffic jams and a violent snowstorm":
https://youtu.be/INFrrkBrxfc
Thus, in this article Matthew Campbell lies even about such an easily verifiable fact as weather and traffic on the Kerch bridge.


The headline is important: "Moscow’s £3bn bridge sinks Kiev’s export trade"

The bridge is too low for ocean-going ships to export grain and steel products, the main export products from the second largest port in Ukraine. So they had to adjust because of it. So the headline is correct. Then you can debate about trivial things, but those aren't important and only functions as a distraction, but nobody is distracted and keeps its eye on the ball. Important is that Putin's Russia wanted to hit Ukraine economically and did just that. That's why Putin's regime is a bully and that's why it needs to be put back into its place, just like your school bully.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:58 pm

A3801000 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
Glad to read that the EU once again extended the economic sanctions against Russia.


So is Putin, believe it or not.



Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha


The funny thing is that Putin is kind of. The Putin regime needs a perceived foreign enemy to survive, otherwise it doesn't get to rally around the leader kind of thing going and Russians will see what kind of regime they are governed by. So yes, Putin is kind of happy with that.

What the Putin crowd here doesn't realize, is that they're actually quite critical on Putin. He has been in power for the past 20 years and only after the sanctions he (or actually Russian farmers) kind of took over with their lesser products. So in the first 15years of the Putin reign, he didn't do anything to help the farmers, only when he is kind of forced to. So yeah, Putin is really great for the ordinary Russian......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:00 pm

Scorpius wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
There somewhere was recently an article about the Kerch bridge, where a reporter told how he got into a winter storm on the bridge, and how there was paralyzed movement. Only here at the specified date, there was no storm. And the traffic on the bridge went without a hitch.


Scorpius wrote:
Shame on you.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/moscows-3bn-bridge-sinks-kievs-export-trade-9d8z7whht
Given the written and the date of the article, the journalist who wrote it could "go on the Kerch bridge" in the period from 25.11.2018 to 02.12.2018.
Here is archive with data about weather in city of Kerch for the time:here is archive with data about weather in city of Kerch for the time:
http://o-pogode.ru/dnem-25-november-2018/kerch There is also a video showing the stormy weather on the Kerch bridge 30.11.18 - the video clearly shows that there are no "traffic jams and a violent snowstorm":https://youtu.be/INFrrkBrxfc Thus, in this article Matthew Campbell lies even about such an easily verifiable fact as weather and traffic on the Kerch bridge.


Oh, Scorpius #3... we love you because we love to laugh at you; you can't even get your story straight! "No storms"... but "a video showing the stormy weather".

:lol:

Do you wonder why the world laughs at the Russian propaganda machine? Failures! THe old KGB would never have made these mistakes; maybe little lilliPutin needs to go back to his old job...


Show me in the video "traffic jams and a violent snowstorm".


Firstly, not important. Secondly, you keep amazing me with your stories, your company has quite a large archive of these kinds of stories, don't they.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:03 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Love to visit it once more, sure. But I can't right now, I make it a habit not to go to occupied territory.


You can as well set these sentiments aside for a moment, come and chat with locals. I am sure you’ll return home with different understanding of who is the occupant in this Crimean matter


No, it will not. Like I said before, if there is a proper referendum which shows the Crimean people wanted to join Russia, it is fine by me. It needs to be done properly and that's it. What Russia did was a violation of international law and that can't be tolerated, has nothing to do with the will of the people.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:04 pm

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Love to visit it once more, sure. But I can't right now, I make it a habit not to go to occupied territory.


You can as well set these sentiments aside for a moment, come and chat with locals. I am sure you’ll return home with different understanding of who is the occupant in this Crimean matter


No, it will not. Like I said before, if there is a proper referendum which shows the Crimean people wanted to join Russia, it is fine by me. It needs to be done properly and that's it. What Russia did was a violation of international law and that can't be tolerated, has nothing to do with the will of the people.


You can tell that to the Serbians.

You would have credibility in my book and I wouldn't have labeled you a typical two faced westerner, who believes that their system/views are the ultimate truth if you had said that you also think there was a problem with the same scenario as Crimea (Serbia/Kosovo).
Note that in a previous post on this thread that is exactly what I said, btw.

But you just have to go and ruin your position of supposebly having morals and having a definition of right and wrong by viewing the same scenario in different situations and making opposite conclusions, and feeling so strongly about it at that...
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:29 pm

tu204 wrote:
You can tell that to the Serbians.


Serbs, aka Russians of the Balkans, should have been bombed back to stone age already in June 1991. It would have save the region a decade of sensless wars.
 
tu204
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:56 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
It would have save the region a decade of sensless wars.


Probably.

And that is exactly what happened with Crimea. Saved quite a bit of bloodshed that was inevitable had this not happened.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
alfa164
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:18 am

tu204 wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
It would have save the region a decade of sensless wars.

Probably. And that is exactly what happened with Crimea. Saved quite a bit of bloodshed that was inevitable had this not happened.


This is not exactly what happened with Crimea. Caused quite a bit of bloodshed because Russia wanted the territory and the oil - and especially because Russia wants to destabilize Ukraine.


There; I fixed it for you.
;)
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
tu204
Posts: 1824
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:03 am

alfa164 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
It would have save the region a decade of sensless wars.

Probably. And that is exactly what happened with Crimea. Saved quite a bit of bloodshed that was inevitable had this not happened.


This is not exactly what happened with Crimea. Caused quite a bit of bloodshed because Russia wanted the territory and the oil - and especially because Russia wants to destabilize Ukraine.


There; I fixed it for you.
;)




This is not exactly what happened with Crimea, but similarities exist. Caused quite a bit of bloodshed because the west decided to intervene in Ukranian internal affairs and support an illegal coup by Ukranian nationalists that overthrew the legally elected President. Russia then supported the alienated residents of Crimea that had already formed militias against the thugs that came to power and started taking agressive actions against those that didn't recognize the coup.
In the end and partially due to Russia's actions to support the Crimeans and recognize their appeal to join the Russian Federation bloodshed in Crimea was averted.


There, made it better for ya ;)
Now it is historically complete ;)
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:22 pm

A3801000 wrote:
Glad to read that the EU once again extended the economic sanctions against Russia.


Quite logical, nothing has changed, so sanctions stay.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:27 pm

tu204 wrote:

This is not exactly what happened with Crimea, but similarities exist. Caused quite a bit of bloodshed because the west decided to intervene in Ukranian internal affairs and support an illegal coup by Ukranian nationalists that overthrew the legally elected President. Russia then supported the alienated residents of Crimea that had already formed militias against the thugs that came to power and started taking agressive actions against those that didn't recognize the coup.
In the end and partially due to Russia's actions to support the Crimeans and recognize their appeal to join the Russian Federation bloodshed in Crimea was averted.


There, made it better for ya ;)
Now it is historically complete ;)


Not quite Putin's narrative, but it comes close. No use to convince you, because you are ok with violating international law.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:37 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:

This is not exactly what happened with Crimea, but similarities exist. Caused quite a bit of bloodshed because the west decided to intervene in Ukranian internal affairs and support an illegal coup by Ukranian nationalists that overthrew the legally elected President. Russia then supported the alienated residents of Crimea that had already formed militias against the thugs that came to power and started taking agressive actions against those that didn't recognize the coup.
In the end and partially due to Russia's actions to support the Crimeans and recognize their appeal to join the Russian Federation bloodshed in Crimea was averted.


There, made it better for ya ;)
Now it is historically complete ;)


Not quite Putin's narrative, but it comes close. No use to convince you, because you are ok with violating international law.


Again, so was Kosovo. But I don't try to convince myself or others that I stand for something and then go out and and say something else that blatantly shows my double standards.

Im straight up saying that I believe in a moral right. And stand by it.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:59 pm

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:

This is not exactly what happened with Crimea, but similarities exist. Caused quite a bit of bloodshed because the west decided to intervene in Ukranian internal affairs and support an illegal coup by Ukranian nationalists that overthrew the legally elected President. Russia then supported the alienated residents of Crimea that had already formed militias against the thugs that came to power and started taking agressive actions against those that didn't recognize the coup.
In the end and partially due to Russia's actions to support the Crimeans and recognize their appeal to join the Russian Federation bloodshed in Crimea was averted.


There, made it better for ya ;)
Now it is historically complete ;)


Not quite Putin's narrative, but it comes close. No use to convince you, because you are ok with violating international law.


Again, so was Kosovo. But I don't try to convince myself or others that I stand for something and then go out and and say something else that blatantly shows my double standards.

Im straight up saying that I believe in a moral right. And stand by it.


on Kosovo:

Tensions between Kosovo's Albanian and Serb communities simmered through the 20th century and occasionally erupted into major violence, culminating in the Kosovo War of 1998 and 1999, which resulted in the withdrawal of the Yugoslav Army and the establishment of the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo.

On 17 February 2008, Kosovo unilaterally declared its independence from Serbia.[17] It has since gained diplomatic recognition as a sovereign state by 113 UN member states, but has also been derecognized by several countries as well. Serbia does not recognize Kosovo as a state,[18] although with the Brussels Agreement of 2013, it has accepted its institutions. While Serbia recognises administration of the territory by Kosovo's elected government,[19] it continues to claim it as its own Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo

Shall we do the same for Crimea, first 9 years under UN protectorate and then let them decide?
More or less what I proposed, so no double standards, doesn't matter how much you like to spin it.

I like to see international law being followed, you support the Putin regime ignoring them.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:58 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Not quite Putin's narrative, but it comes close. No use to convince you, because you are ok with violating international law.


Again, so was Kosovo. But I don't try to convince myself or others that I stand for something and then go out and and say something else that blatantly shows my double standards.

Im straight up saying that I believe in a moral right. And stand by it.


on Kosovo:

Tensions between Kosovo's Albanian and Serb communities simmered through the 20th century and occasionally erupted into major violence, culminating in the Kosovo War of 1998 and 1999, which resulted in the withdrawal of the Yugoslav Army and the establishment of the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo.

On 17 February 2008, Kosovo unilaterally declared its independence from Serbia.[17] It has since gained diplomatic recognition as a sovereign state by 113 UN member states, but has also been derecognized by several countries as well. Serbia does not recognize Kosovo as a state,[18] although with the Brussels Agreement of 2013, it has accepted its institutions. While Serbia recognises administration of the territory by Kosovo's elected government,[19] it continues to claim it as its own Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo

Shall we do the same for Crimea, first 9 years under UN protectorate and then let them decide?
More or less what I proposed, so no double standards, doesn't matter how much you like to spin it.

I like to see international law being followed, you support the Putin regime ignoring them.


Exactly. Unilateral declaration. So international law was violated. So it is the same scenario. Just different sides.

Therefore you are not being consistant and find excuses to try to prove that you and your case is right, while all others are wrong.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:12 pm

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Again, so was Kosovo. But I don't try to convince myself or others that I stand for something and then go out and and say something else that blatantly shows my double standards.

Im straight up saying that I believe in a moral right. And stand by it.


on Kosovo:

Tensions between Kosovo's Albanian and Serb communities simmered through the 20th century and occasionally erupted into major violence, culminating in the Kosovo War of 1998 and 1999, which resulted in the withdrawal of the Yugoslav Army and the establishment of the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo.

On 17 February 2008, Kosovo unilaterally declared its independence from Serbia.[17] It has since gained diplomatic recognition as a sovereign state by 113 UN member states, but has also been derecognized by several countries as well. Serbia does not recognize Kosovo as a state,[18] although with the Brussels Agreement of 2013, it has accepted its institutions. While Serbia recognises administration of the territory by Kosovo's elected government,[19] it continues to claim it as its own Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo

Shall we do the same for Crimea, first 9 years under UN protectorate and then let them decide?
More or less what I proposed, so no double standards, doesn't matter how much you like to spin it.

I like to see international law being followed, you support the Putin regime ignoring them.


Exactly. Unilateral declaration. So international law was violated. So it is the same scenario. Just different sides.

Therefore you are not being consistant and find excuses to try to prove that you and your case is right, while all others are wrong.


Ok, you do not want to handle Crimea as was done with Kosovo. That is fine, but even you must see the difference. Furthermore, Kosovo wasn't annexed, as was Crimea. No matter how much you would like to frame it as the same situation, it is totally different. Russia was and is the aggressor and that is not good.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:25 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

on Kosovo:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo

Shall we do the same for Crimea, first 9 years under UN protectorate and then let them decide?
More or less what I proposed, so no double standards, doesn't matter how much you like to spin it.

I like to see international law being followed, you support the Putin regime ignoring them.


Exactly. Unilateral declaration. So international law was violated. So it is the same scenario. Just different sides.

Therefore you are not being consistant and find excuses to try to prove that you and your case is right, while all others are wrong.


Ok, you do not want to handle Crimea as was done with Kosovo. That is fine, but even you must see the difference. Furthermore, Kosovo wasn't annexed, as was Crimea. No matter how much you would like to frame it as the same situation, it is totally different. Russia was and is the aggressor and that is not good.


The precursor was the same situation, it was handled differently but with the same intent and end result - peace and stability for the end party. It was achieved but using different methods.

Better yet look at South Ossetia and Abkhazia, these are absolutely the same scenarios yet there you aswell manage to find some phantom differences.
In fact South Ossetia has more of a right than Kosovo because they were again attacked before their international recognition. An equivilant would be Kosovo getting attacked by Serbia just before their international recognition in 2008 :roll:
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:38 pm

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Exactly. Unilateral declaration. So international law was violated. So it is the same scenario. Just different sides.

Therefore you are not being consistant and find excuses to try to prove that you and your case is right, while all others are wrong.


Ok, you do not want to handle Crimea as was done with Kosovo. That is fine, but even you must see the difference. Furthermore, Kosovo wasn't annexed, as was Crimea. No matter how much you would like to frame it as the same situation, it is totally different. Russia was and is the aggressor and that is not good.


The precursor was the same situation, it was handled differently but with the same intent and end result - peace and stability for the end party. It was achieved but using different methods.

Better yet look at South Ossetia and Abkhazia, these are absolutely the same scenarios yet there you aswell manage to find some phantom differences.
In fact South Ossetia has more of a right than Kosovo because they were again attacked before their international recognition. An equivilant would be Kosovo getting attacked by Serbia just before their international recognition in 2008 :roll:


South Ossetia is a vassal state of Russia. South Ossetia hasn't been under UN control. South Ossetia hasn't had any international recognition besides a few nations.

n total, Abkhazia and South Ossetia have been recognised by seven and six UN member states respectively, though Vanuatu withdrew its recognition of Abkhazia in 2013 as did Tuvalu of both in 2014


I guess whatever makes you feel better about yourself.....
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
Posts: 1824
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:22 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Ok, you do not want to handle Crimea as was done with Kosovo. That is fine, but even you must see the difference. Furthermore, Kosovo wasn't annexed, as was Crimea. No matter how much you would like to frame it as the same situation, it is totally different. Russia was and is the aggressor and that is not good.


The precursor was the same situation, it was handled differently but with the same intent and end result - peace and stability for the end party. It was achieved but using different methods.

Better yet look at South Ossetia and Abkhazia, these are absolutely the same scenarios yet there you aswell manage to find some phantom differences.
In fact South Ossetia has more of a right than Kosovo because they were again attacked before their international recognition. An equivilant would be Kosovo getting attacked by Serbia just before their international recognition in 2008 :roll:


South Ossetia is a vassal state of Russia. South Ossetia hasn't been under UN control. South Ossetia hasn't had any international recognition besides a few nations.


South Ossetia is a closely alligned and partially dependant independent nation. Kinda like Kosovo and Albania.

There was a peacekeeing contigent inside both Akbhazia and South Ossetia since they were attacked and there was an attempt of ethnic cleansing by Georgia under nationalist president Gamsakhurdia back in 1993.
Both states held several refferendums for independence untill 2008, when Georgian armed forces launched an attack on South Ossetia, shelling the capitol of Tshinval and a Russian Peacekeeper base that was there under the mutual agreement between Georgia and Russia, killing Russian peacekeepers and Ossetian civilians.

So yeah, absolutely the same situation. Only difference is that Kosovo was not attacked by Serbia when they unilaterally and illegaly seceeded from Serbia.

And it is absolutely irrelevant who does or does not recognize them. Just like I am sure that Kosovo doesn't care that half the world doesn't recognize them either, what's important is that who they have closest ties to do recognize them.
Those countries that recognize one but not the other just put their double standards out for show.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:55 pm

Two Russian vassal states, so yes, I guess you could call that the country whom is closest to them recognizes them: Russia. The rest are no important nations, or are far away (Venezuela, Nicaragua, Nauru, and Syria). Further more with the treaties signed, they are defacto annexed by Russia.

Peacekeepers = Russian soldiers, so I guess you could call an occupying force "peace keepers".

Kosovo had a war in 1998, after which the UN took over for 9 years. So not attack in 2007, hence you are framing again, quite a bit.

Russia is a pariah state with the Putin regime as his leader. But keep defending it, it is funny.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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SQ22
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:17 am

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