tommy1808
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:36 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
I don't think it's realistic, or at least it's as realistic as my no-crime utopia


Well, if mankind ever makes it post scarcity it might work, but not a chance before that. And I don't think we still have nation states in a traditional sense by then.
Capitalism and communism can not coexist on the same planet, capitalism has won. If there ever will be something akin to communism here, it will be by slow, ever so slight gradual steps over decades, centuries or millennia.
Any attempt to force it would lead to the end of both, and everything else.

Best regards
Thomas
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salttee
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:43 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Capitalism and communism can not coexist on the same planet
Now you're towing the Stalinist line. Sure they can co-exist as two separate economic systems. There is no need for hostility as long as both sides recognize that. The world would be a better place if Russia were to build a 20 foot wall around itself and live in peaceful communistic bliss. The problem comes when one side or the other feels a need to change the other guy's system.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:50 am

salttee wrote:
The problem comes when one side or the other feels a need to change the other guy's system.


Or desires the other sides resources.

Best regards
Thomas
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:22 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
salttee wrote:
The problem comes when one side or the other feels a need to change the other guy's system.


Or desires the other sides resources.

Best regards
Thomas


Russia doesn't need the resources of Ukraine, just wants the influence and Putin needs an external enemy to form a group of the people of Russia, unite Russians around the leader, no difficult questions asked: no freedom, the wealth gap between ordinary Russians and the clan round Putin, corruption, economy, higher retirement age etc.

Like I said before, some kind of move in Ukraine was to be expected. Apparently, this is it. Building the bridge was a problem for Ukraine, not only was it illegal, but the height was a bit low, so Ukraine had to modify ships in order to pass it. The Kerch Strait is economical of immense importance for Ukraine. Lot's of its export product pass through there: steel and agricultural products.
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Scorpius
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:30 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:

Perhaps it isn't Ukraine's, Georgia's, Estonia's, Latvia's, Lithuania's, etc fault. Maybe they didn't enjoy the Soviet utopia and are very unpleased with Russia's current actions.

It's not always the case, to be fair, but doesn't it give you pause that your former satellite states increasing want nothing to do with you and view you as hostile? I'd give the people of that country a little more credit than treating them like puppets of the West


You're confusing the interests of the local elites who sold their countries to guarantee their power with the opinion of the people of those States.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:14 pm

Scorpius wrote:
You're confusing the interests of the local elites who sold their countries to guarantee their power with the opinion of the people of those States.

Interesting insight on Putin and his relationship with the Russian people.

Tugg
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:08 pm

Scorpius wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:

Perhaps it isn't Ukraine's, Georgia's, Estonia's, Latvia's, Lithuania's, etc fault. Maybe they didn't enjoy the Soviet utopia and are very unpleased with Russia's current actions.

It's not always the case, to be fair, but doesn't it give you pause that your former satellite states increasing want nothing to do with you and view you as hostile? I'd give the people of that country a little more credit than treating them like puppets of the West


You're confusing the interests of the local elites who sold their countries to guarantee their power with the opinion of the people of those States.

So everyday Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, and Georgians are all pro Russia, it's just their corrupt elites that are anti Russian?

Of course you can find pockets of pro Russians (and even Russians) in these counties. Eastern Ukrainians and Crimeans definitely are more warm to Russia. I don't think you'd find that in many other parts of these countries? Why not?

I mean I guess you can throw out something about Westen propaganda in these countries, and without going into "both sides are bad and equal" fallacy, I'm sure a bit of that goes on, but let's not absolve Russia.

There is good reason many of these Baltic states fear Russia. Whether or not you think intervention in Georgia or Ukraine are justified, these countries are taking notice and are scared "justified interventions" will happen in their country.

Why do you think they are pushing for more of a NATO presence in their country? Wasn't Ukraine flirting with joining NATO? They probably wish they did. Sorry if Russia views a heavier NATO presence in these countries as a threat, trust me as someone that lives in "Western media propaganda land," I, other Westerners, our elites, etc have no interest in marching in and taking over Russia, or even kicking Russia while they're down for amusement or whatever. The only interest (or potential interest) of Russia we are trying to encounter is annexing more of "your land" or creating some satellite states. Trust me, if it wasn't for Georgia and Ukraine, you'd see a lot less of NATO

Your talk of how you all shouldn't have even let these countries go in the first place, or whatever you were going on about, is further reason why many people in these countries are scared of yall

I don't even hate Russia or anything. I probably give them too much benefit of the doubt. It's the country I've always wanted to visit, and I'd love to learn Russian one day. Its history, culture, and people fascinate me. I'd love nothing more than for Russia and the West to "join," I see no reason why we couldn't
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:23 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
I don't even hate Russia or anything. I probably give them too much benefit of the doubt. It's the country I've always wanted to visit, and I'd love to learn Russian one day. Its history, culture, and people fascinate me. I'd love nothing more than for Russia and the West to "join," I see no reason why we couldn't


Yes, you do. Indeed, hating it is an acquired thing -- after you are under attack for a while, previous feel-good impressions will take a while to dissipate.

It's a bit like feelings of an Allied pilot, bombing Nazi Germany back into the stone age, and before that -- he listened to Beethoven and Wagner, read Goethe and enjoyed art of Duerer. He knows that what has to be done is right (so he boards his plane for his dangerous mission), and the rabid dog has to be put down; but it feels wrong. And then he is reminded that his adversary is no land of Duerer now -- it's the land of Fuehrer; and that has to stop.

Post-reconstruction, pacified adversary can actually go back to being a productive member of the world community. And people will resume their fascination with Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky and Lermontov. But not before.
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:01 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
I don't even hate Russia or anything. I probably give them too much benefit of the doubt. It's the country I've always wanted to visit, and I'd love to learn Russian one day. Its history, culture, and people fascinate me. I'd love nothing more than for Russia and the West to "join," I see no reason why we couldn't


Yes, you do. Indeed, hating it is an acquired thing -- after you are under attack for a while, previous feel-good impressions will take a while to dissipate.

It's a bit like feelings of an Allied pilot, bombing Nazi Germany back into the stone age, and before that -- he listened to Beethoven and Wagner, read Goethe and enjoyed art of Duerer. He knows that what has to be done is right (so he boards his plane for his dangerous mission), and the rabid dog has to be put down; but it feels wrong. And then he is reminded that his adversary is no land of Duerer now -- it's the land of Fuehrer; and that has to stop.

Post-reconstruction, pacified adversary can actually go back to being a productive member of the world community. And people will resume their fascination with Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky and Lermontov. But not before.


Make the distinction between people/culture and the current leadership. I don't dislike ordinary Russians, I do dislike the policies of the current Russian government: the Putin regime, especially on their foreign policies. I don't see anything good coming out of Russia on their foreign policy.
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Phosphorus
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
I don't even hate Russia or anything. I probably give them too much benefit of the doubt. It's the country I've always wanted to visit, and I'd love to learn Russian one day. Its history, culture, and people fascinate me. I'd love nothing more than for Russia and the West to "join," I see no reason why we couldn't


Yes, you do. Indeed, hating it is an acquired thing -- after you are under attack for a while, previous feel-good impressions will take a while to dissipate.

It's a bit like feelings of an Allied pilot, bombing Nazi Germany back into the stone age, and before that -- he listened to Beethoven and Wagner, read Goethe and enjoyed art of Duerer. He knows that what has to be done is right (so he boards his plane for his dangerous mission), and the rabid dog has to be put down; but it feels wrong. And then he is reminded that his adversary is no land of Duerer now -- it's the land of Fuehrer; and that has to stop.

Post-reconstruction, pacified adversary can actually go back to being a productive member of the world community. And people will resume their fascination with Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky and Lermontov. But not before.


Make the distinction between people/culture and the current leadership. I don't dislike ordinary Russians, I do dislike the policies of the current Russian government: the Putin regime, especially on their foreign policies. I don't see anything good coming out of Russia on their foreign policy.


Why, if I may ask, should I? When Ruskies invaded us in 2014, Putin had approval rating in high 80's percentages in Russia. What specific reason is there for make this important distinction between CURRENT people and leadership?
( Of course, I'm not talking about achievements and culture of the past; that's already filed and archived, undisputed.)
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:20 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:

Yes, you do. Indeed, hating it is an acquired thing -- after you are under attack for a while, previous feel-good impressions will take a while to dissipate.

It's a bit like feelings of an Allied pilot, bombing Nazi Germany back into the stone age, and before that -- he listened to Beethoven and Wagner, read Goethe and enjoyed art of Duerer. He knows that what has to be done is right (so he boards his plane for his dangerous mission), and the rabid dog has to be put down; but it feels wrong. And then he is reminded that his adversary is no land of Duerer now -- it's the land of Fuehrer; and that has to stop.

Post-reconstruction, pacified adversary can actually go back to being a productive member of the world community. And people will resume their fascination with Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky and Lermontov. But not before.


Make the distinction between people/culture and the current leadership. I don't dislike ordinary Russians, I do dislike the policies of the current Russian government: the Putin regime, especially on their foreign policies. I don't see anything good coming out of Russia on their foreign policy.


Why, if I may ask, should I? When Ruskies invaded us in 2014, Putin had approval rating in high 80's percentages in Russia. What specific reason is there for make this important distinction between CURRENT people and leadership?
( Of course, I'm not talking about achievements and culture of the past; that's already filed and archived, undisputed.)


I understand your feeling about Russia in general. If my country were invaded by another country I would probably feel the same. However, I do feel it is important to make that distinction because in the end, Russia and Ukraine will stay neighbors and this must be resolved, one way or another. And I think it will help not to look at ordinary Russians as an enemy. But that is up to yourself.
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Phosphorus
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:40 pm

Of course it's up to us. But we need a little help from our friends, to make it possible.
For example, Netherlands remains neighbour to Germany, and despite 1940-45 experience, they are on relatively decent terms. To make this possible, Germany was leveled to the ground by Allied bombers. And German armies were turned to dust by Soviets, Brits, Americans, Canadians, and countless others, to achieve it.
Now, Germany is an acceptable member of the world community, rather than expansionist revanchist war machine, run under illusions of grandeur and demands for running other countries.

So yes, Russia can become useful and agreeable. But transformation, like with Germany-1938 into Germany-1945, is needed first. The sooner the rest of the world accepts this inevitability, and gets on with it, the better.
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Flighty
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:38 pm

Oh brother. Why not just be happy with the peace that nuclear weapons have brought us? It is the job of Russians to hopefully incinerate their leaders. Hopefully that will be done as soon as possible. China, very very similar thing. To do it as an external military involves millions of unnecessary deaths. In reality perhaps 350-500 key people being brought to justice by their own people will be more than enough. And by justice I do not mean a trial. Maybe 500 in Russia and 5,000 in China, adjusted for population. That's all that is needed. But their own people have to do it.

But the problem is... Russia and China already had revolutions... and this is what they came up with. Mafia states (at best).
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:54 pm

Flighty wrote:
It is the job of Russians to hopefully incinerate their leaders. Hopefully that will be done as soon as possible. China, very very similar thing.

This thread isn't about the West removing Russia's leaders, it is what to be done regarding Russia's intervention in Ukraine. I'm not advocating nuclear war or anything to save Ukraine, though to be fair, no one here is.

Really the closest thing we are seeing to actual aggression (as opposed to DEFENSIVELY placing forces in weak Baltic states to deter invasion for example) is silliness about nukes in Venezuela and the Red Army sweeping through Europe because of hurt feelings or something (really tried to hear out his more reasonable points but I'm getting a lot of far fetched scenarios like that.)

Maybe you aren't for intervention in Ukraine but if, hypothetically, Russia was making moves to invade the Batlics, would you then be in favor of protecting these states? I don't think it would come to nuking as long as we don't start taking the fight onto actual Russian soil. But if the Baltics fall, Ukraine falls, etc, it could be Poland and further West after that, couldn't it?

And as aggressive as that scenario sounds and how non aggressive many Russian posters on this board are trying to sound, they do seem pretty nonchalant about future Russian conquests westward, whereas NO Western poster is talking about invading Russia or taking any Russian land (with the exception of Crimea if you're on the side that views that as Russian land, and even then it's by economic and not military means)

Where is tu204? We didn't see eye to eye on a lot but he was willing to criticize Russia when he saw fit and didn't treat Russia as some flawless country. We have posters that say they don't treat Russia as flawless yet they will predictably justify every Russian action and further crazy conquests...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:24 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Of course it's up to us. But we need a little help from our friends, to make it possible.
For example, Netherlands remains neighbour to Germany, and despite 1940-45 experience, they are on relatively decent terms. To make this possible, Germany was leveled to the ground by Allied bombers. And German armies were turned to dust by Soviets, Brits, Americans, Canadians, and countless others, to achieve it.
Now, Germany is an acceptable member of the world community, rather than expansionist revanchist war machine, run under illusions of grandeur and demands for running other countries.

So yes, Russia can become useful and agreeable. But transformation, like with Germany-1938 into Germany-1945, is needed first. The sooner the rest of the world accepts this inevitability, and gets on with it, the better.


Oh yes, I firmly believe this too. And I believe that Russian society hasn't properly processed the fact that the USSR failed and that they aren't a world power anymore. That was a traumatic experience. The Germans also had a trauma, but the allies made sure that each and every German saw what happened in the extermination camps, so no denying after the war. Russian still seem to believe in the system and that Russia is the greatest country for all the wrong reasons. Russia has the potential to become a great country, but not on its current course.
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:32 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
This thread isn't about the West removing Russia's leaders, it is what to be done regarding Russia's intervention in Ukraine. I'm not advocating nuclear war or anything to save Ukraine, though to be fair, no one here is.


Actually, nobody is advocating it. The only war talk is being done by Russians. The west has zero interest and zero to gain from invading Russia or even removing Putin from power. That is all foisted into the minds of Russians by Kremlin (=Putin) controlled Russian media.

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Maybe you aren't for intervention in Ukraine but if, hypothetically, Russia was making moves to invade the Batlics, would you then be in favor of protecting these states? I don't think it would come to nuking as long as we don't start taking the fight onto actual Russian soil. But if the Baltics fall, Ukraine falls, etc, it could be Poland and further West after that, couldn't it?


Baltic states = NATO, even the Putin regime will not be that stupid to see if Article 5 actually works.
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:22 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Baltic states = NATO, even the Putin regime will not be that stupid to see if Article 5 actually works.

You know, I sure hope so. I don't see it happening, but I think it's more likely than it was 5 years ago

I'm still waiting an answer from some certain posters how NATO is acting as a threat to Russia. I mean it's a great line and all to rile people up, but does any Russian truly think we'd invade Russia? There is a huge disconnect between our populations if they think that's a possibility, or that we'd even have the slightest urge to. Trust us, you can keep it all

And I'm sure there'll be some comparison about "what if Russia stationed some troops in Mexico or Cuba" or something. Well when we start threatening (like for real) a military invasion of those two countries and they start requesting a Russian defensive presence, then ok. And no, Bay of Pigs is not a good example, that was half a century ago and so much has changed, we're no longer even close to militarily intervening there.

Think that covered all my bases ;)
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:29 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Baltic states = NATO, even the Putin regime will not be that stupid to see if Article 5 actually works.

You know, I sure hope so. I don't see it happening, but I think it's more likely than it was 5 years ago

I'm still waiting an answer from some certain posters how NATO is acting as a threat to Russia. I mean it's a great line and all to rile people up, but does any Russian truly think we'd invade Russia? There is a huge disconnect between our populations if they think that's a possibility, or that we'd even have the slightest urge to. Trust us, you can keep it all

And I'm sure there'll be some comparison about "what if Russia stationed some troops in Mexico or Cuba" or something. Well when we start threatening (like for real) a military invasion of those two countries and they start requesting a Russian defensive presence, then ok. And no, Bay of Pigs is not a good example, that was half a century ago and so much has changed, we're no longer even close to militarily intervening there.

Think that covered all my bases ;)


All bases are covert, except one: you are wanting a troll to answer you, paid or not.
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
All bases are covert, except one: you are wanting a troll to answer you, paid or not.

Haha. Well, he may be a lost cause. I was hoping to come from a different angle and have him lower his defenses a bit so we can talk but I don't know how successful it'll be. I hope that's not what an average Russian thinks.

I can't remember all the Russian posters, but I remember a few that were a lot more reasonable. I mentioned tu204, we disagreed a lot but we could usually have a civil debate. There were a few more
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:53 pm

Sure, I don't believe tu204 is a troll. Scorpius and Anrec80 certainly are, or at least hardcore Putin devotees. Tried to reason with those last two to no avail. Don't know any other Russians on this site, perhaps they steer well clear of politics. Too bad the country flags are a thing of the past. :spin:
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Sure, I don't believe tu204 is a troll. Scorpius and Anrec80 certainly are, or at least hardcore Putin devotees. Tried to reason with those last two to no avail. Don't know any other Russians on this site, perhaps they steer well clear of politics. Too bad the country flags are a thing of the past. :spin:

Yeah I really miss the flags. And I guess I can't blame anyone for steering clear of politics... probably hostile territory here for a Russian. But I appreciate the honest points of view I get from some of them, and while I haven't been convinced of much in the macro sense, a lot of smaller things made some sense.

The best thing was getting their point of view. Whether I ultimately change my mind or not, I at least like understanding why someone thinks the way they do. I don't think Russians are inherently stupid or corrupt people, obviously, so why do they think so differently? Learned a lot why on these forums
 
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:44 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Sure, I don't believe tu204 is a troll. Scorpius and Anrec80 certainly are, or at least hardcore Putin devotees. Tried to reason with those last two to no avail. Don't know any other Russians on this site, perhaps they steer well clear of politics. Too bad the country flags are a thing of the past. :spin:

Yeah I really miss the flags. And I guess I can't blame anyone for steering clear of politics... probably hostile territory here for a Russian. But I appreciate the honest points of view I get from some of them, and while I haven't been convinced of much in the macro sense, a lot of smaller things made some sense.

The best thing was getting their point of view. Whether I ultimately change my mind or not, I at least like understanding why someone thinks the way they do. I don't think Russians are inherently stupid or corrupt people, obviously, so why do they think so differently? Learned a lot why on these forums


Same for me, I have learned a lot from people whom voted for Brexit or Trump. Didn't changed my mind though. As for Russia, I have read alot about it and I think the two most vocal people aren't who they say they are.....
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Scorpius
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:21 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
There is good reason many of these Baltic states fear Russia. Whether or not you think intervention in Georgia or Ukraine are justified, these countries are taking notice and are scared "justified interventions" will happen in their country.

Have you ever thought about the fact that Russia has much more reason to fear the invasion of NATO?

And Yes - in the Baltic States are afraid mainly of the local elite. The peoples of these countries as a whole are well aware that they can currently be of interest to Russia only in the context of the location of NATO bases on their territory.

As for your assurances that NATO does not intend to attack Russia, it is ridiculous to hear this from a representative of Western countries who have done everything possible to ensure that the Soviet Union disintegrates. Faith you henceforth and forever no.

We remember how the leaders of NATO ensured that NATO one inch will not be moving to the East. What we see now? It was a lie. NATO's advance to the East began, by the way, in 1999, and then continued in 2004. About any "aggression" of Russia in relation to Ukraine or Georgia and the speech didn't go.

Once again I would like to raise the issue of " Russia's aggression in Crimea".
Russian-speaking users should be familiar with the history of the comments on the Ukrainian resource Цензор.net about Crimea. As an example of what Ukrainian idiots for too long pulling the whiskers of the tiger:
Image
19.02.10 09:45 TODAY is the 56th ANNIVERSARY of the annexation of CRIMEA IN the UKRAINE. WITH THE HOLIDAY, RUSSIANS!
19 February 1954, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR issued a Decree "On transfer of the Crimean region from the RSFSR to the Ukrainian SSR»
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What lies behind this historical background? In the words of Prokhanov, behind it lies "metaphysics". I.e. total historical bad luck Russia and civilizationa hopelessness.
Muscovites just such enchanting idiots like you could lose the tidbit from the former scoop. Fucked up, and then drunk and legalized it!
This your pain, your humiliation, your shame! Live and suffer with this FOREVER!


I give a literal quote, swearing in it is not my fiction, but a literal translation.

the picture got two more comments:
on the picture are another two comment:
bf: so it they're staying... And in life everything happens... Come guys systems and say: we Want Russia, as many teeth ache!!! And these guys, when something hurts, don't touch them.
No Name: I don't mind that Crimea went to hell. Just let Daunbass* with a grab.

* Note: here the commentator gives an insultingly distorted name of the region. In the original, that area of Ukraine called Donbass ("Donets basin"). And Downbass is a name designed to humiliate the population living there.

I can't see this stuff right now, but theoretically, it should all be available here at this link:
http://censor.net.%20ua/forum/509912/segodnya_56ya_godovschina_vhojdeniya_kryma_v_sostav_ukrainy_s_prazdnikom_rossiyane/sortby/tree/order/desc/page/7#comments

So, I gave just one example of the behavior of Ukrainians in relation to the issue of belonging to the Crimea, which refers to the period long before the crisis of 2014.
This is just one example out of many thousands. Western propaganda is spreading lies that Russia has committed aggression in Ukraine. In fact, the separation of Crimea and the uprising in the Donbas were the result of the actions of Western countries that supported the illegal coup in Ukraine, as well as supported neo-Nazi Ukrainian groups.

You see, I know about the events in Ukraine first - hand-I have many relatives there. And that is characteristic-none of them supported the Maidan. And all of them now admit that they fear for their lives and health due to the fact that they have a Pro-Russian position. And everyone reports that in Ukraine since the coming to power of neo-Nazis and Pro-Western oligarchs, living conditions have deteriorated significantly.
And you sit, open-mouthed, at the TV, and listen to the propaganda in which you talk about the fact that in Ukraine "blah-blah-blah, something about democracy and Western values, blah-blah-blah, bad Putin, aggressive Russia".
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:46 am

Scorpius wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
There is good reason many of these Baltic states fear Russia. Whether or not you think intervention in Georgia or Ukraine are justified, these countries are taking notice and are scared "justified interventions" will happen in their country.

Have you ever thought about the fact that Russia has much more reason to fear the invasion of NATO?.


No, because that would be utter nonsense. If he had ever considered that he´d probable be a very depressive person with a death-wish. Russia has exactly zero reasons to fear a NATO invasion, since they got 4000+ nukes. If the west wants to commit suicide we wouldn´t need to invade first, we would just incinerate you and wait for the reply to arrive.

No amount of conventional superiority will change that, that is why Russia gave up the USSRs strict no nuclear first-strike policy after it was clear that the Russian Army had about the chance of a snowball in hell to stop a determined NATO advance. Russia is only pissed of that limited ABM in Europe nullifies the chance of getting away with a limited tactical nuclear attack on day one.

best regards
Thomas .
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:59 am

Scorpius wrote:
And Yes - in the Baltic States are afraid mainly of the local elite. The peoples of these countries as a whole are well aware that they can currently be of interest to Russia only in the context of the location of NATO bases on their territory.


Keep to your script of our original Scorpius, he said he feels that the USSR territory needs to be restored, including the Baltic States and Ukraine. Scorpius also claimed that he expresses the opinion of most of Russians, in that respect, the Baltics need to fear Russia. And Georgia and Ukraine proof that they need to fear Russia. Everone can see this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:09 am

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
And Yes - in the Baltic States are afraid mainly of the local elite. The peoples of these countries as a whole are well aware that they can currently be of interest to Russia only in the context of the location of NATO bases on their territory.


Keep to your script of our original Scorpius, he said he feels that the USSR territory needs to be restored, including the Baltic States and Ukraine. Scorpius also claimed that he expresses the opinion of most of Russians, in that respect, the Baltics need to fear Russia. And Georgia and Ukraine proof that they need to fear Russia. Everone can see this.


you're twisting my words again. Fear of Russia is only the local elites of the separatist regions. The peoples inhabiting these territories are not afraid of Russia - they would only benefit from being within the framework of a single state. And this point of view is very popular not only in Russia but also in other parts of the former USSR. In order to find out, it is enough to communicate with ordinary citizens of these States. I will notice - all without exception of the Republic of the USSR separated, playing the nationalist card. And until now, the basis of confrontation with Russia in these republics is clearly nationalistic.

At the same time, we see that living conditions in these republics are increasingly deteriorating. From the USSR more or less independently can exist and develop only Kazakhstan and Russia. Ukraine, for example, has fallen into complete poverty, including because of the constant confrontation with Russia. Actually, what is happening in Ukrainian politics for the last 25 years except treason can not be called. Ukraine is rigidly focused on the Russian market - its industrial enterprises and agricultural enterprises are focused on Russia. But no, instead of using the benefits of cooperation, the Ukrainian leadership strongly hindered the development of their country.
The Baltic countries, however, too - because of their anti-Russian nationalist rhetoric, they lost revenue from the transit of Russian goods through their territory.
 
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:16 am

Scorpius wrote:
you're twisting my words again.


Nope, just pointing out discrepancies between the different versions of Scorpius. I understand that this is uncomfortable for you all, but there you go.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
JJJ
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:10 am

Scorpius wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
There is good reason many of these Baltic states fear Russia. Whether or not you think intervention in Georgia or Ukraine are justified, these countries are taking notice and are scared "justified interventions" will happen in their country.


We remember how the leaders of NATO ensured that NATO one inch will not be moving to the East. What we see now? It was a lie. NATO's advance to the East began, by the way, in 1999, and then continued in 2004. About any "aggression" of Russia in relation to Ukraine or Georgia and the speech didn't go.


You (or rather, your leader Putin) doesn't really remember it, and quotes out of context.

Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says "No"?
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front ... v-says-no/

NATO has a clearly stated open-door policy. If the sovereign country of Kolesia wants to join NATO and the other members agree there isn't really much Russia or any other non-NATO countries can do.
 
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:04 pm

JJJ wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
There is good reason many of these Baltic states fear Russia. Whether or not you think intervention in Georgia or Ukraine are justified, these countries are taking notice and are scared "justified interventions" will happen in their country.


We remember how the leaders of NATO ensured that NATO one inch will not be moving to the East. What we see now? It was a lie. NATO's advance to the East began, by the way, in 1999, and then continued in 2004. About any "aggression" of Russia in relation to Ukraine or Georgia and the speech didn't go.


You (or rather, your leader Putin) doesn't really remember it, and quotes out of context.

Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says "No"?
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front ... v-says-no/

NATO has a clearly stated open-door policy. If the sovereign country of Kolesia wants to join NATO and the other members agree there isn't really much Russia or any other non-NATO countries can do.



Refutation of your statements:
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/when-washington-assured-russia-nato-would-not-expand/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW3DWgMAwz0

In fact, you fall even lower-instead of admitting the fact of deception, you're trying to say that there was no deception.

This shows that your words can only be trusted by fools.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:09 pm

Scorpius wrote:
This shows that your words can only be trusted by fools.


If his words can only be trusted by fools, whom can and will trust your words?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:22 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
This shows that your words can only be trusted by fools.


If his words can only be trusted by fools, whom can and will trust your words?

And I don't encourage anyone to blindly trust my words. All my words are easily verifiable, as I refer to the real facts. But your controversy is based on statements like "we and the whole civilized world", which is already a demagogic technique and typical propaganda.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:25 pm

Scorpius wrote:
This shows that your words can only be trusted by fools.


takes one to know one i guess.

In its context the assurance was that NATO would not move closer to the USSR (and by succession Russia), your own link says so, which it didn´t do, as Ukraine and Belarus are now independent countries.

your link wrote:
The first concrete assurances by Western leaders on NATO began on January 31, 1990, when West German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher opened the bidding with a major public speech at Tutzing, in Bavaria, on German unification. The U.S. Embassy in Bonn (see Document 1) informed Washington that Genscher made clear “that the changes in Eastern Europe and the German unification process must not lead to an ‘impairment of Soviet security interests.’ Therefore, NATO should rule out an ‘expansion of its territory towards the east, i.e. moving it closer to the Soviet borders.’”


In fact your border is now far further away from NATO as it used to be.

You of course do also fail completely by one simple fact. You quote speeches and negotiations, at the end of those there was a treaty, and that treaty has no language like that. Zero. None.

JJJ is correct, you never got any assurances with that regard, or you traded it in for something else that was more important to you at that time. Or are you trying to say Russian diplomats where too stupid?

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:31 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
This shows that your words can only be trusted by fools.


If his words can only be trusted by fools, whom can and will trust your words?

And I don't encourage anyone to blindly trust my words. All my words are easily verifiable, as I refer to the real facts.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Thanks man, for a good laugh at Monday afternoon. That's why we love you and have missed you, all 3 of you.

I simple only need to point out anything about MH17, Crimea, Baltics, press freedom in Russia, freedom in general in Russia, LGTB rights in Russia, election interfering in the US, spying with the OPCW in the Netherlands etc. etc. etc. All your statements are indeed easily verifiable, easily verifiable as false.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:43 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

If his words can only be trusted by fools, whom can and will trust your words?

And I don't encourage anyone to blindly trust my words. All my words are easily verifiable, as I refer to the real facts.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Thanks man, for a good laugh at Monday afternoon. That's why we love you and have missed you, all 3 of you.

I simple only need to point out anything about MH17, Crimea, Baltics, press freedom in Russia, freedom in general in Russia, LGTB rights in Russia, election interfering in the US, spying with the OPCW in the Netherlands etc. etc. etc. All your statements are indeed easily verifiable, easily verifiable as false.


All of these you "arguments" is a false propaganda of the West. There is no real evidence of Russia's involvement in the violations that you are trying to attribute to it.
The real freedom of speech in Russia allows to exist here such Pro-Western, West-funded propaganda tools As "radio " Freedom", TV channel "Rain", "Echo of Moscow" (the latter even has funding from "Gazprom" (!!!), etc
).
Let's compare this with the situation in the West: how many TV channels, radio stations or other media Express Pro-Russian views in the West? Except RT.
What you're trying to call "freedom of speech" actually turns out to be "Freedom of my speech, not yours".

It's the same with the rest. You lie about the fact that Russia is allegedly aggressive-while all Russia's foreign policy steps are a forced reaction to the hostile actions of the West. You have not been invited to the territory where Russia's strategic interests operate. Speaking figuratively - you broke into someone else's backyard, and now outraged that the owner of the property is dissatisfied.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:56 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Speaking figuratively - you broke into someone else's backyard, and now outraged that the owner of the property is dissatisfied.


Not your property, Russia broke into the property of other nations.......... And that is what the rest of the world sees and you / Russian government / Putin regime denies.

Russia Today isn't media, it is propaganda. So spare me your little propaganda tools like: whataboutism.

You see, your words are worth nothing, just propaganda like a good little Russian troll, paid or not.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:33 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Speaking figuratively - you broke into someone else's backyard, and now outraged that the owner of the property is dissatisfied.


Not your property, Russia broke into the property of other nations..........


Funny how he thinks that sovereign nations are somehow Russian property....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:35 pm

Why does it seem like these questions are always framed in the way of "Should the US do this..." or "What can the US do about this..."

Why isn't there any discussion about what the EU can be doing on this front? I'm not accusing the EU of sitting idle, simply wondering aloud why the US seems to be the one to shoulder the blame for Russia's aggression in Ukraine.
 
Scorpius
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:44 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Why does it seem like these questions are always framed in the way of "Should the US do this..." or "What can the US do about this..."

Why isn't there any discussion about what the EU can be doing on this front? I'm not accusing the EU of sitting idle, simply wondering aloud why the US seems to be the one to shoulder the blame for Russia's aggression in Ukraine.


The EU is a satellite of the United States, they can not pursue an independent policy. We have been observing this for a long time. In Germany, there are still us occupation bases - what kind of independence can such a country talk about?
And the attitude of the USA to Europe is expressed by one phrase of Mrs. Nuland. What was she saying? "F*ck the EU!".
 
Scorpius
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:47 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Speaking figuratively - you broke into someone else's backyard, and now outraged that the owner of the property is dissatisfied.


Not your property, Russia broke into the property of other nations.......... And that is what the rest of the world sees and you / Russian government / Putin regime denies.

Russia Today isn't media, it is propaganda. So spare me your little propaganda tools like: whataboutism.

You see, your words are worth nothing, just propaganda like a good little Russian troll, paid or not.

You keep saying like a parrot,"it's not true, you're Putin's agent." I don't know, is it more pathetic than funny?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:01 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Speaking figuratively - you broke into someone else's backyard, and now outraged that the owner of the property is dissatisfied.


Not your property, Russia broke into the property of other nations.......... And that is what the rest of the world sees and you / Russian government / Putin regime denies.

Russia Today isn't media, it is propaganda. So spare me your little propaganda tools like: whataboutism.

You see, your words are worth nothing, just propaganda like a good little Russian troll, paid or not.

You keep saying like a parrot,"it's not true, you're Putin's agent." I don't know, is it more pathetic than funny?


I am consistent: if you keep posting the same things, you keep getting the same answers.

The reason why Russia keeps coming in the news negatively, because western media are just reporting the news. Behave differently, get better media coverage and your country doesn't need to have a propaganda like RT. Don't and you get media reports like this:

Image

One leader killing its country's journalist highvifeing another doing the same. Fitting.

Russia is a regional power, the sooner the Russians accept it and don't believe the lies from the Putin regime anymore the better. After that, we can work towards a better world in the framework of international law, instead of bullying by Russia.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:06 pm

Scorpius wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Why does it seem like these questions are always framed in the way of "Should the US do this..." or "What can the US do about this..."

Why isn't there any discussion about what the EU can be doing on this front? I'm not accusing the EU of sitting idle, simply wondering aloud why the US seems to be the one to shoulder the blame for Russia's aggression in Ukraine.


The EU is a satellite of the United States, they can not pursue an independent policy. We have been observing this for a long time. In Germany, there are still us occupation bases - what kind of independence can such a country talk about?
And the attitude of the USA to Europe is expressed by one phrase of Mrs. Nuland. What was she saying? "F*ck the EU!".


Propaganda technique two: divide......

Not working my Russian troll, not working.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:08 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Speaking figuratively - you broke into someone else's backyard, and now outraged that the owner of the property is dissatisfied.


Not your property, Russia broke into the property of other nations..........


Funny how he thinks that sovereign nations are somehow Russian property....

best regards
Thomas

All this "independence" is nothing more than a fiction. The fact is that all these peoples are integral parts of the Russian nation, artificially separated by betrayals, propaganda and the efforts of Western capital. In turn, you are trying to present their personal opinions as the opinions of entire Nations. At the same time, you do not even speak the language of these peoples.
How many relatives do you have in the Soviet republics? My ancestors on the mother's side, for example, live in the territory of present - day Ukraine since the seventeenth century-the USA did not exist yet, and my ancestors already lived near Zhytomyr. They're Russian. And identify themselves as Russians. And everyone remembers how in Soviet times, on the initiative of local elites, many ethnic Russians received a record that they were "Ukrainians" by nationality. Even then, local elites prepared the ground for separatism.

Remember the Baltic States-in 1721 Russia bought the land from Sweden, bought all the territory, along with the entire population, cities and even livestock. Tell me, when did these lands suddenly become independent? How did they deserve this independence? Did what?

Wherever you look - all the current "independent States", the former Soviet republics, were not historically independent States, and all were formed as a result of separatism in the Russian Empire.
Again - remember the collapse of the Soviet Union. According to the results of the referendum, in addition to the Baltic States in all the republics people voted for the preservation of the USSR, but the opinion of the people was criminally ignored - the oligarchic elites who came to power decided to plunder the national wealth of the USSR. None of the ordinary citizens of the USSR won anything from the collapse of the country. But the collapse of the USSR was actively promoted by Western countries. This lesson we also remember-less than half a century ago we saved the world from Nazism, and today those whom we saved, tried to finish our state. Seriously, do you really expect that as a result of the policy that the United States conducts after the Second world war, and especially now - in Russia should not consider you enemies?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:10 pm

Scorpius wrote:
and all were formed as a result of separatism in the Russian Empire.


... and that is how they became independent, sovereign nations. Q.E.D.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Scorpius
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Russia is a regional power, the sooner the Russians accept it and don't believe the lies from the Putin regime anymore the better. After that, we can work towards a better world in the framework of international law, instead of bullying by Russia.


In your dreams.
Our position will never change: Russia has its own national interests, and we will act in accordance with them. No one can force Russia to change its opinion on this issue. As to international law - it does not exist exactly with the moment in Belgrade dropped the first bombs of NATO.
Strictly speaking, it does not exist even from an earlier moment, but NATO's aggression in Yugoslavia has finally buried international legal principles.
 
Scorpius
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:17 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
and all were formed as a result of separatism in the Russian Empire.


... and that is how they became independent, sovereign nations. Q.E.D.

best regards
Thomas


If you approach this issue this way, then the DPR and the LPR are independent States, and Crimea had all the rights to independence and accession to Russia. Q.E.D.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:21 pm

Scorpius wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Not your property, Russia broke into the property of other nations..........


Funny how he thinks that sovereign nations are somehow Russian property....

best regards
Thomas

All this "independence" is nothing more than a fiction. The fact is that all these peoples are integral parts of the Russian nation, artificially separated by betrayals, propaganda and the efforts of Western capital. In turn, you are trying to present their personal opinions as the opinions of entire Nations. At the same time, you do not even speak the language of these peoples.
How many relatives do you have in the Soviet republics? My ancestors on the mother's side, for example, live in the territory of present - day Ukraine since the seventeenth century-the USA did not exist yet, and my ancestors already lived near Zhytomyr. They're Russian. And identify themselves as Russians. And everyone remembers how in Soviet times, on the initiative of local elites, many ethnic Russians received a record that they were "Ukrainians" by nationality. Even then, local elites prepared the ground for separatism.

Remember the Baltic States-in 1721 Russia bought the land from Sweden, bought all the territory, along with the entire population, cities and even livestock. Tell me, when did these lands suddenly become independent? How did they deserve this independence? Did what?

Wherever you look - all the current "independent States", the former Soviet republics, were not historically independent States, and all were formed as a result of separatism in the Russian Empire.
Again - remember the collapse of the Soviet Union. According to the results of the referendum, in addition to the Baltic States in all the republics people voted for the preservation of the USSR, but the opinion of the people was criminally ignored - the oligarchic elites who came to power decided to plunder the national wealth of the USSR. None of the ordinary citizens of the USSR won anything from the collapse of the country. But the collapse of the USSR was actively promoted by Western countries. This lesson we also remember-less than half a century ago we saved the world from Nazism, and today those whom we saved, tried to finish our state. Seriously, do you really expect that as a result of the policy that the United States conducts after the Second world war, and especially now - in Russia should not consider you enemies?


1. Get a good history book
2. It is up to you to decide how you view other countries
3. You don't speak for all of Russia either, although you are expressing the Putin line perfectly
4. Baltic States are independent, get use to it and are quite happy in NATO and the EU, they have chosen.
5. USSR is gone, all gone, no historic claims please or we are going to make some our selves...........
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:27 pm

Dutchy wrote:
5. USSR is gone, all gone, no historic claims please or we are going to make some our selves...........

I just want to remind you that the times when someone risked putting forward some territorial claims to Russia, led to this kind of map of Russian territories:
Image
You want repetition?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:34 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
5. USSR is gone, all gone, no historic claims please or we are going to make some our selves...........

I just want to remind you that the times when someone risked putting forward some territorial claims to Russia, led to this kind of map of Russian territories:
Image
You want repetition?


And Russia has an economy the size of Italy.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:35 pm

Scorpius wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
and all were formed as a result of separatism in the Russian Empire.


... and that is how they became independent, sovereign nations. Q.E.D.

best regards
Thomas


If you approach this issue this way, then the DPR


Yes, they are. They even have representation at the UN.

and the LPR are independent States,


Nope. No mandate. Not even Russia recognizes that Terror Organisation as nation. And the same case as with

Crimea


on top of that: Occupying and holding a fake referendum doesn´t cut it, so Crimea in deed

had all the rights to independence and accession to Russia.


Now Crimea is occupied territory and the only right it has is to be restored to Ukraine. Once that happened they can again talk about Independence.

Ukraine is recognized by Russia, so the equivalency you are trying to draw is false in any case. That is where the story ends.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:51 pm

How much fun is it still arguing with a Kremlin troll, who sounds like a stuck record?

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