WIederling
Posts: 7098
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:54 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
How much fun is it still arguing with a Kremlin troll, who sounds like a stuck record?


mirror mirror on the wall who is the best stuck record of them all.

https://books.google.de/books/about/The ... edir_esc=y
Murphy is an optimist
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:56 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
How much fun is it still arguing with a Kremlin troll, who sounds like a stuck record?


Ah, some of them are more fun then others.....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 7025
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:17 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
How much fun is it still arguing with a Kremlin troll, who sounds like a stuck record?


More like he/they is living in the past.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3616
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:22 pm

Scorpius wrote:
I just want to remind you that the times when someone risked putting forward some territorial claims to Russia, led to this kind of map of Russian territories:

You want repetition?
No one is making claims to Russian territory.

The countries that joined NATO are independant nations, and the countries that joined NATO remain fully independant. In addition, any NATO expansion is done at the request of the joining nation. NATO does not go around begging other countries if they might perhaps want to join the club. Same goes for the European Union.

Or are you implying that Russia has territorial claims against some (or all) of the former Warsaw Pact countries?
Attamottamotta!
 
Scorpius
Posts: 793
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:38 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
I just want to remind you that the times when someone risked putting forward some territorial claims to Russia, led to this kind of map of Russian territories:

You want repetition?
No one is making claims to Russian territory.

The countries that joined NATO are independant nations, and the countries that joined NATO remain fully independant. In addition, any NATO expansion is done at the request of the joining nation. NATO does not go around begging other countries if they might perhaps want to join the club. Same goes for the European Union.

Or are you implying that Russia has territorial claims against some (or all) of the former Warsaw Pact countries?


One of the decisive factors for the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact Organization was assurances by representatives of the United States and other Western countries that NATO would not move to the East. That promise turned out to be a lie. Moving any NATO military infrastructure to Russia's borders is a direct and clear threat to Russian territory and the lives of our citizens. It is very simple - the rockets starting from the territory of the USA, will reach Russia in 40 minutes. Missiles launching from Europe in 10 minutes. There is no time to assess the threat.

Nice look foolish your arguments that supposedly NATO-something it does not want in the subject called "Should park several US Navy ships in waters near Ukraine Kerch Strait ?". Note that the theme is not called " Should Russian Navy park several ships in US waters near Lower New York Bay ?".
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 1535
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:41 pm

Scorpius wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
I just want to remind you that the times when someone risked putting forward some territorial claims to Russia, led to this kind of map of Russian territories:

You want repetition?
No one is making claims to Russian territory.

The countries that joined NATO are independant nations, and the countries that joined NATO remain fully independant. In addition, any NATO expansion is done at the request of the joining nation. NATO does not go around begging other countries if they might perhaps want to join the club. Same goes for the European Union.

Or are you implying that Russia has territorial claims against some (or all) of the former Warsaw Pact countries?


One of the decisive factors for the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact Organization was assurances by representatives of the United States and other Western countries that NATO would not move to the East. That promise turned out to be a lie. Moving any NATO military infrastructure to Russia's borders is a direct and clear threat to Russian territory and the lives of our citizens. It is very simple - the rockets starting from the territory of the USA, will reach Russia in 40 minutes. Missiles launching from Europe in 10 minutes. There is no time to assess the threat.

Nice look foolish your arguments that supposedly NATO-something it does not want in the subject called "Should park several US Navy ships in waters near Ukraine Kerch Strait ?". Note that the theme is not called " Should Russian Navy park several ships in US waters near Lower New York Bay ?".


One might argue that such moves (defensive in the case of missile defense systems in Poland and other countries, offensive by placing "several US Navy ships in waters near Ukraine) are all a response to Russian aggression in the region. Those territories also have a right to protect themselves.

Also, last I checked, DC didn't recently annex New York City or the surrounding geo-political area.
 
alfa164
Posts: 2320
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:22 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
How much fun is it still arguing with a Kremlin troll, who sounds like a stuck record?


tommy1808 wrote:
Ah, some of them are more fun then others.....best regards
Thomas


It is funny; this Scorpius #3 seems to be much more erudite than Scorpius #1 or Scorpius #2, but his/her/its "arguments" are much weaker; just a merry-go-round of repeated assertions, diversions, and ridiculous claims.

This topic has become A.net's best entertainment to date!

:lol:

Dutchy wrote:
More like he/they is living in the past.


Yep; I don't think the overlords of the Scorpii in St. petersburg update their scripts very often...

;)
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 7025
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:44 pm

Scorpius wrote:
One of the decisive factors for the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact Organization was assurances by representatives of the United States and other Western countries that NATO would not move to the East.


Nope, the USSR and the Warsaw Pact dissolved because the people didn't want to be in a dictatorship anymore, no more communism, no more overlords in Moscow. The USSR collapsed up into itself.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
JJJ
Posts: 3059
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:52 pm

Scorpius wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
I just want to remind you that the times when someone risked putting forward some territorial claims to Russia, led to this kind of map of Russian territories:

You want repetition?
No one is making claims to Russian territory.

The countries that joined NATO are independant nations, and the countries that joined NATO remain fully independant. In addition, any NATO expansion is done at the request of the joining nation. NATO does not go around begging other countries if they might perhaps want to join the club. Same goes for the European Union.

Or are you implying that Russia has territorial claims against some (or all) of the former Warsaw Pact countries?


One of the decisive factors for the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact Organization was assurances by representatives of the United States and other Western countries that NATO would not move to the East. That promise turned out to be a lie. Moving any NATO military infrastructure to Russia's borders is a direct and clear threat to Russian territory and the lives of our citizens. It is very simple - the rockets starting from the territory of the USA, will reach Russia in 40 minutes. Missiles launching from Europe in 10 minutes. There is no time to assess the threat..


What or whose missiles are deployed in Poland is exclusively up to the Polish.

Russia no longer has any business there unless invited.
 
A3801000
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:00 pm

Scorpius wrote:

One of the decisive factors for the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact Organization was assurances by representatives of the United States and other Western countries that NATO would not move to the East. That promise turned out to be a lie.


In which contract/treaty etc.. is this mentioned?
 
User avatar
Tugger
Topic Author
Posts: 8459
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:11 pm

A3801000 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:

One of the decisive factors for the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact Organization was assurances by representatives of the United States and other Western countries that NATO would not move to the East. That promise turned out to be a lie.


In which contract/treaty etc.. is this mentioned?

It wasn't, however:
After the Berlin Wall fell, Europe's regional order hinged on the question of whether a reunified Germany would be aligned with the United States (and NATO), the Soviet Union (and the Warsaw Pact) or neither. Policymakers in the George H.W. Bush administration decided in early 1990 that NATO should include the reconstituted German republic.

In early February 1990, U.S. leaders made the Soviets an offer. According to transcripts of meetings in Moscow on Feb. 9, then-Secretary of State James Baker suggested that in exchange for cooperation on Germany, U.S. could make "iron-clad guarantees" that NATO would not expand "one inch eastward." Less than a week later, Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev agreed to begin reunification talks. No formal deal was struck, but from all the evidence, the quid pro quo was clear: Gorbachev acceded to Germany's western alignment and the U.S. would limit NATO's expansion.

[...]

It's therefore not surprising that Russia was incensed when Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, the Baltic states and others were ushered into NATO membership starting in the mid-1990s. Boris Yeltsin, Dmitry Medvedev and Gorbachev himself protested through both public and private channels that U.S. leaders had violated the non-expansion arrangement. As NATO began looking even further eastward, to Ukraine and Georgia, protests turned to outright aggression and saber-rattling.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/l ... story.html

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 1535
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:16 pm

That's quite interesting. I hadn't known that, thanks for sharing Tugg.

However, mid-1990's would be Clinton administration and well, we're a free country and with a free election comes different policy positions.
 
alfa164
Posts: 2320
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:19 pm

Scorpius wrote:
One of the decisive factors for the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact Organization was assurances by representatives of the United States and other Western countries that NATO would not move to the East. That promise turned out to be a lie.


One of the decisive decisions for that validates Ukraine's claim over Crimea was the fact that Russian President Nikita Khrushchev gave it to Ukraine, with no strings attached, in 1954. That gft, however, turned out to be a lie.


There, I fixed it for you.

https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/ ... lash-point


trpmb6 wrote:
However, mid-1990's would be Clinton administration and well, we're a free country and with a free election comes different policy positions.


:checkmark: The first rule of law is "Get it in writing". The second rule... and the third rule... are the same.


And, by the way, Russia's gift of Crimea was in writing. Unfortunately, Russia's promises - even in writing - as as valuable as the piece of paper they are written on...
Last edited by alfa164 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
A3801000
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:19 pm

So nothing relevant. Why discuss it when at the same time Russia is in clear breach of a official memorandum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_ ... Assurances

Scorpius is just looking for any lame excuse to justify Russias war in Ukraine.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 7025
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:23 pm

A3801000 wrote:
Scorpius is just looking for any lame excuse to justify Russias war in Ukraine.


That is true. And those are the same arguments the Putin regime uses.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
alfa164
Posts: 2320
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:30 pm

Dutchy wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
Scorpius is just looking for any lame excuse to justify Russias war in Ukraine.

That is true. And those are the same arguments the Putin regime uses.


Of course, the various Scorpii must echo the same arguments as the Putin regime. Otherwise they would probably receive Novichok instead of Rubles...
 
User avatar
Tugger
Topic Author
Posts: 8459
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:35 pm

Also found this:
https://www.nato.int/docu/review/2014/r ... /index.htm

The key thing is that for "the West" nations are allowed to enter into and also withdraw from treaties and organizations. I honestly do think that element is missing from those with a more dictatorial/authoritarian mindset.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 7025
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:42 pm

Tugger wrote:
Also found this:
https://www.nato.int/docu/review/2014/r ... /index.htm

The key thing is that for "the West" nations are allowed to enter into and also withdraw from treaties and organizations. I honestly do think that element is missing from those with a more dictatorial/authoritarian mindset.

Tugg


Interesting statistic: no two full democracies ever got into a war. So if Russia is so afraid, they should turn itself into a full democracy instead of an autocracy which it is now.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3616
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:51 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Interesting statistic: no two full democracies ever got into a war. So if Russia is so afraid, they should turn itself into a full democracy instead of an autocracy which it is now.

Israel -vs- Lebanon, more then once
Turkey -vs- Cyprus, complete with a long-term occupation
various wars in the former Yugoslavia (Serbia/Bosnia/Croatia/Kosovo/FYROM)

And that's not even counting multiple civil wars.
Attamottamotta!
 
salttee
Posts: 2814
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:31 pm

It's also factitious to say that Nazi Germany was not as much of a democracy as many other countries who are accepted to be or have been accepted as democracies. Hitler was voted in just as Trump was voted in. He kept his promises too. There is no doubt that most Germans thought he was making Germany great again (up until sometime in 1944).

William Shirer wrote about the enthusiasm for the Nazi cause he witnessed in Berlin circa 1940/41.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Diary
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8406
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:59 am

Wow, a lot of conversation has happened today, but I'm still hung up here:
Scorpius wrote:
Have you ever thought about the fact that Russia has much more reason to fear the invasion of NATO?

Скорпиус, my man, please let's just debate this real quick. I don't want to ignore the rest of your post but this statement is an actual brick wall we cannot get past.

Do you really, really think anyone in the West here wants to invade Russia?? I'm adding so much emphasis because it goes against, really, any common sense and anything any rational, sane person here thinks. I literally cannot think of anyone I've ever met or talked to that wants any kind of shooting war with Russia. I know that's an anecdote, you can probably Google and find a few nutjobs out there, but we have no intention, interest, or quite frankly, any benefit of invading you.

Honestly, over here, it's basically assumed that any such action between us will end in total annihilation.

Do Russians want to invade the US? Do Russians want a nuclear war?

Reflect upon those two questions. Us Westerners are humans too. I try not to make Russians "the other," please don't do the same to us, if you think it's completely stupid, pointless, and suicidal for NATO to invade you, it's probably the same for us. Please stop thinking we want to kill us all. We do not want your country!

Before debating the finer points, we have to get past this complete and utter disagreement. We've clashed in this thread but I think I've been way more than fair to you. I don't see how we can continue conversing if you think the West, Westerners, or even our "elites" want to invade your country. We'd just never agree
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:58 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Do you really, really think anyone in the West here wants to invade Russia??


If anyone ever *wants* to invade Russia, it will be China. Russia knows that, you can see that in the deployment of their weapons. The good, new stuff for a large part goes into the far east, not where it could dug it out with NATO. The 11th Command of Air Force and Air Defence gets all the good toys....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tu204
Posts: 1690
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:06 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:

Where is tu204? We didn't see eye to eye on a lot but he was willing to criticize Russia when he saw fit and didn't treat Russia as some flawless country. We have posters that say they don't treat Russia as flawless yet they will predictably justify every Russian action and further crazy conquests...


Hey.

I glance at these posts once in a while as they all seemed to turn into shitslinging contests from both ends with no actual value to the specific topic being discussed of the larger topic of Russia-western relations. I am a fan of that old saying that goes something like "Truth is born through discussion." (or something like that). There is rarely any more actual discussions in these topics. Just people throwing out baseless or heavily one-sided catch phrases from either side. It isn't a real secret that there are trolls from Russia that go on these rants online, but now I am getting the opinion that our buddies in the west took a page out of this book and are doing pretty much the same. Just look at this Phosphorous kid on this topic. Change a couple words around and its almost like another poster from "the other side" posting on this topic. :roll:

Anyhow, in case anyone is interested, I'll go out an post some facts. As in things I have personally witnessed with my own eyes and from first hand accounts that I had. I do quite a bit of work-related travel outside of western countries and get plenty of oppertunity to chat.

1) Crimea - I even made a post about this when I visited in January 2015. People clearly had overwhelming support for leaving Ukraine and supported joining Russia. Although it was clear that the main point was to GTFO of Ukraine was the main concern, joining Russia was just a means of achieving this and security afterwards.
Just recently I met several Crimeans that were directly involved in the armed militia groups that they themselves formed to protect themselves from nationalist Ukranians that were trying to pay them not-so-friendly visits. These guys were not a handfull, they had massive support from other Crimeans and it was almost a week that they stood their ground before Russian Forces came in to reinforce them and guarantee that the refferendum could take place. During which, by the way nobody was threatened to vote either way or vote in general, there was widespread public support.
Therefore, after these facts what possible dialogue could I have with someone that does not accept these facts and throws back rubber stamp comments back at me, not having been there personally any not having talked to locals?

2) Syria - in my recent travels met plenty of Syrian refugees, none of whom said anything negative about Russia or Putin or myself. Actually most of the time they are legitimately thankfull for the assistance that Russia provided and is providing to them, usually followed up with being treated to free food or drink (the majority of the Syrians I lately met apparently happen to have found employment at dining establishments whereever they happened to end up). :lol:
When I ask them about why they think the war started, half the time the reply is "Obama Sharmuta".
While when I dug deeper they admitted to having internal problems, however they are all of the opinion that the match that lit the fire was thrown in from the outside. I was actually in Syria personally in the last month, people are greatful and look like they finally have hope after almost a decade of misery.
So after this, what can I possibly discuss with people that haven't been to Syria lately or actually took the time to pick the minds of Syrians but with foam coming out of their mouths assert that Russia invaded Syria against the will of the majority of the Syrians to prop up their despised dictator that gasses his people for fun (I don't have first hand facts regarding the supposed gas attacks, so this is my opinion, but just using logic - why the hell would the government resert to that when they are clearly winning the war? :roll:
Who doesn't believe me - go visit. Major cities on the coast are perfectly safe.

3) Outcast Russia - as I said, travel a lot. General opinion of people towards Russia is either poisitve of neutral. General opinion of the United States is negative or neutral.
Therefore I am making the conclusion that it definately is not Russia that is the outcast here, the world is more than the US and EU and people around the world are pretty fed up with western meddling. Not saying they are happy with Russia's role, maybe the positive view is because we haven't had a chance to screw up; many say they have a positive view of Russia because the legacy of Soviet assistance is still around, others because negative view of the west and that Russia is becoming the counterbalance to it.

Anyhow, those were facts I have seen and experienced first hand, and on this I base my conclusions. I find there to be way too much propaganda in Russian media and western media directed at each other that there is pretty much no truth to be found there.

As far as Ukraine goes and this particular topic, haven't been there since I think 2005 and have no desire to go. All my opinions are based on Ukrainians that I have met in Russia that fled that place, so their view is biased too. The opinions that I form about that place mostly comes from a Ukranian blogger, now a refugee living in the EU - Anatoliy Sharij ( https://www.youtube.com/user/SuperSharij ). this guy fled back when Yanukovitch was President and in his blog he puts a large accent on facts, after which he does or does not follow up with an opinion.
I think most of his blogs are in Russian unfortunately. But even look at western media lately that not so long ago were praising Poroshenko and Ukraine - even they look a little dissapointed as they can't continue with the rose glasses when looking at that place. He is just as corrupt and more of a dictator than Yanukovitch ever was. Ukraine is more of a lawless state than it was under Yanukovitch and this guy has a rating of around 15-20% with elections coming up in March?
Logic tells me this whole cherade with these 3 ships was a provocation by Ukraine and Russia fell for swallowed it hook line and sinker. As it only benefits Poroshenko and his gang and does no benefit to Russia or Putin, be it internally or externally.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 7025
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:28 am

tu204 wrote:

Hey.

I glance at these posts once in a while as they all seemed to turn into shitslinging contests from both ends with no actual value to the specific topic being discussed of the larger topic of Russia-western relations. I am a fan of that old saying that goes something like "Truth is born through discussion." (or something like that). There is rarely any more actual discussions in these topics. Just people throwing out baseless or heavily one-sided catch phrases from either side. It isn't a real secret that there are trolls from Russia that go on these rants online, but now I am getting the opinion that our buddies in the west took a page out of this book and are doing pretty much the same. Just look at this Phosphorous kid on this topic. Change a couple words around and its almost like another poster from "the other side" posting on this topic. :roll:

Anyhow, in case anyone is interested, I'll go out an post some facts. As in things I have personally witnessed with my own eyes and from first hand accounts that I had. I do quite a bit of work-related travel outside of western countries and get plenty of oppertunity to chat.

1) Crimea - I even made a post about this when I visited in January 2015. People clearly had overwhelming support for leaving Ukraine and supported joining Russia. Although it was clear that the main point was to GTFO of Ukraine was the main concern, joining Russia was just a means of achieving this and security afterwards.
Just recently I met several Crimeans that were directly involved in the armed militia groups that they themselves formed to protect themselves from nationalist Ukranians that were trying to pay them not-so-friendly visits. These guys were not a handfull, they had massive support from other Crimeans and it was almost a week that they stood their ground before Russian Forces came in to reinforce them and guarantee that the refferendum could take place. During which, by the way nobody was threatened to vote either way or vote in general, there was widespread public support.
Therefore, after these facts what possible dialogue could I have with someone that does not accept these facts and throws back rubber stamp comments back at me, not having been there personally any not having talked to locals?

2) Syria - in my recent travels met plenty of Syrian refugees, none of whom said anything negative about Russia or Putin or myself. Actually most of the time they are legitimately thankfull for the assistance that Russia provided and is providing to them, usually followed up with being treated to free food or drink (the majority of the Syrians I lately met apparently happen to have found employment at dining establishments whereever they happened to end up). :lol:
When I ask them about why they think the war started, half the time the reply is "Obama Sharmuta".
While when I dug deeper they admitted to having internal problems, however they are all of the opinion that the match that lit the fire was thrown in from the outside. I was actually in Syria personally in the last month, people are greatful and look like they finally have hope after almost a decade of misery.
So after this, what can I possibly discuss with people that haven't been to Syria lately or actually took the time to pick the minds of Syrians but with foam coming out of their mouths assert that Russia invaded Syria against the will of the majority of the Syrians to prop up their despised dictator that gasses his people for fun (I don't have first hand facts regarding the supposed gas attacks, so this is my opinion, but just using logic - why the hell would the government resert to that when they are clearly winning the war? :roll:
Who doesn't believe me - go visit. Major cities on the coast are perfectly safe.

3) Outcast Russia - as I said, travel a lot. General opinion of people towards Russia is either poisitve of neutral. General opinion of the United States is negative or neutral.
Therefore I am making the conclusion that it definately is not Russia that is the outcast here, the world is more than the US and EU and people around the world are pretty fed up with western meddling. Not saying they are happy with Russia's role, maybe the positive view is because we haven't had a chance to screw up; many say they have a positive view of Russia because the legacy of Soviet assistance is still around, others because negative view of the west and that Russia is becoming the counterbalance to it.

Anyhow, those were facts I have seen and experienced first hand, and on this I base my conclusions. I find there to be way too much propaganda in Russian media and western media directed at each other that there is pretty much no truth to be found there.

As far as Ukraine goes and this particular topic, haven't been there since I think 2005 and have no desire to go. All my opinions are based on Ukrainians that I have met in Russia that fled that place, so their view is biased too. The opinions that I form about that place mostly comes from a Ukranian blogger, now a refugee living in the EU - Anatoliy Sharij ( https://www.youtube.com/user/SuperSharij ). this guy fled back when Yanukovitch was President and in his blog he puts a large accent on facts, after which he does or does not follow up with an opinion.
I think most of his blogs are in Russian unfortunately. But even look at western media lately that not so long ago were praising Poroshenko and Ukraine - even they look a little dissapointed as they can't continue with the rose glasses when looking at that place. He is just as corrupt and more of a dictator than Yanukovitch ever was. Ukraine is more of a lawless state than it was under Yanukovitch and this guy has a rating of around 15-20% with elections coming up in March?
Logic tells me this whole cherade with these 3 ships was a provocation by Ukraine and Russia fell for swallowed it hook line and sinker. As it only benefits Poroshenko and his gang and does no benefit to Russia or Putin, be it internally or externally.


Nice anecdotal evidence....... :lol:

1) Crimea: the simple truth is that the Greenman were Russian military, Putin himself said so, so that is a fact. Russia is and remains the aggressor in this. The same as in Georgia and Eastern Ukraine. Regardless, it was an illegal annexation. If there was a proper free referendum, internationally verified, then I am ok with it, why not? But international law has to be followed in this.
2) Syria: Assad is a dictator of the worst kind. This started with a protest against the Assad regime, which the Assad regime reacted with blood. After 5 years of war people are fat-up with it, so I can imagine that some peace and quiet are preferable. No real good solution there.
3) Russia did all those things in the west and against western democracies, its neighbors and against 298 innocent people, that makes them an outcast in the eyes of at least the western world.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5906
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:35 am

tu204 wrote:
Logic tells me this whole cherade with these 3 ships was a provocation by Ukraine and Russia fell for swallowed it hook line and sinker. As it only benefits Poroshenko and his gang and does no benefit to Russia or Putin, be it internally or externally.


Amazing how Russia ALWAYS falls for these alleged "provocations" resulting inPR disasters ... KAL007, MH17, this incident and countless others.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:17 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Logic tells me this whole cherade with these 3 ships was a provocation by Ukraine and Russia fell for swallowed it hook line and sinker. As it only benefits Poroshenko and his gang and does no benefit to Russia or Putin, be it internally or externally.


Amazing how Russia ALWAYS falls for these alleged "provocations" resulting inPR disasters ... KAL007, MH17, this incident and countless others.


Cute how Ukraine having ships go from A to B in its territorial waters is somehow a provocation these days....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
WIederling
Posts: 7098
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:44 am

salttee wrote:
It's also factitious to say that Nazi Germany was not as much of a democracy as many other countries who are accepted to be or have been accepted as democracies. Hitler was voted in just as Trump was voted in.

Hitler was appointed "Reichskanzler" by the Reichspräsident Hindenburg.
6th in a row
4th with no majority backing.
difference to his predecessors was using his emergency powers "Notstandsgesetz"
to bring in changes that further empowered him and the Nazi organizations. "Ermächtigungsgesetz"

salttee wrote:
He kept his promises too. There is no doubt that most Germans thought he was making Germany great again (up until sometime in 1944).

William Shirer wrote about the enthusiasm for the Nazi cause he witnessed in Berlin circa 1940/41.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Diary


A bit of Yesteryears Trump, right, keeping your promises?
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
Posts: 7098
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:55 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Cute how Ukraine having ships go from A to B in its territorial waters is somehow a provocation these days....

The US moving ships from New York to San Francisco .. provocation?
That the reason they did that Panama invasion?
Murphy is an optimist
 
Scorpius
Posts: 793
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:02 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Wow, a lot of conversation has happened today, but I'm still hung up here:
Scorpius wrote:
Have you ever thought about the fact that Russia has much more reason to fear the invasion of NATO?

Скорпиус, my man, please let's just debate this real quick. I don't want to ignore the rest of your post but this statement is an actual brick wall we cannot get past.

Do you really, really think anyone in the West here wants to invade Russia?? I'm adding so much emphasis because it goes against, really, any common sense and anything any rational, sane person here thinks. I literally cannot think of anyone I've ever met or talked to that wants any kind of shooting war with Russia. I know that's an anecdote, you can probably Google and find a few nutjobs out there, but we have no intention, interest, or quite frankly, any benefit of invading you.

Honestly, over here, it's basically assumed that any such action between us will end in total annihilation.

Do Russians want to invade the US? Do Russians want a nuclear war?

Reflect upon those two questions. Us Westerners are humans too. I try not to make Russians "the other," please don't do the same to us, if you think it's completely stupid, pointless, and suicidal for NATO to invade you, it's probably the same for us. Please stop thinking we want to kill us all. We do not want your country!

Before debating the finer points, we have to get past this complete and utter disagreement. We've clashed in this thread but I think I've been way more than fair to you. I don't see how we can continue conversing if you think the West, Westerners, or even our "elites" want to invade your country. We'd just never agree


You're missing some objective facts. Thirty years ago, all these words could be attributed to all ATS countries. However, today they were gone NATO.
And if the only reason that NATO, as you say, does not want to take over our territories is our nuclear weapons, it is a direct proof that NATO wants to take over our territories. You see, nuclear weapons are not something that exists on its own. This is a very expensive industry, complex technologies. Not all countries in the world can afford it. And the damage to the economic condition of Russia is the damage, including the defense capability of Russia. For example, (hypothetically) the result of sanctions may be a moment when the Russian leadership will have to decide on what to spend their money on - to maintain nuclear weapons, or to feed their citizens. And if Russia does not have nuclear weapons...
 
Scorpius
Posts: 793
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:05 am

tu204 wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:

Where is tu204? We didn't see eye to eye on a lot but he was willing to criticize Russia when he saw fit and didn't treat Russia as some flawless country. We have posters that say they don't treat Russia as flawless yet they will predictably justify every Russian action and further crazy conquests...


Hey.

I glance at these posts once in a while as they all seemed to turn into shitslinging contests from both ends with no actual value to the specific topic being discussed of the larger topic of Russia-western relations. I am a fan of that old saying that goes something like "Truth is born through discussion." (or something like that). There is rarely any more actual discussions in these topics. Just people throwing out baseless or heavily one-sided catch phrases from either side. It isn't a real secret that there are trolls from Russia that go on these rants online, but now I am getting the opinion that our buddies in the west took a page out of this book and are doing pretty much the same. Just look at this Phosphorous kid on this topic. Change a couple words around and its almost like another poster from "the other side" posting on this topic. :roll:

Anyhow, in case anyone is interested, I'll go out an post some facts. As in things I have personally witnessed with my own eyes and from first hand accounts that I had. I do quite a bit of work-related travel outside of western countries and get plenty of oppertunity to chat.

1) Crimea - I even made a post about this when I visited in January 2015. People clearly had overwhelming support for leaving Ukraine and supported joining Russia. Although it was clear that the main point was to GTFO of Ukraine was the main concern, joining Russia was just a means of achieving this and security afterwards.
Just recently I met several Crimeans that were directly involved in the armed militia groups that they themselves formed to protect themselves from nationalist Ukranians that were trying to pay them not-so-friendly visits. These guys were not a handfull, they had massive support from other Crimeans and it was almost a week that they stood their ground before Russian Forces came in to reinforce them and guarantee that the refferendum could take place. During which, by the way nobody was threatened to vote either way or vote in general, there was widespread public support.
Therefore, after these facts what possible dialogue could I have with someone that does not accept these facts and throws back rubber stamp comments back at me, not having been there personally any not having talked to locals?

2) Syria - in my recent travels met plenty of Syrian refugees, none of whom said anything negative about Russia or Putin or myself. Actually most of the time they are legitimately thankfull for the assistance that Russia provided and is providing to them, usually followed up with being treated to free food or drink (the majority of the Syrians I lately met apparently happen to have found employment at dining establishments whereever they happened to end up). :lol:
When I ask them about why they think the war started, half the time the reply is "Obama Sharmuta".
While when I dug deeper they admitted to having internal problems, however they are all of the opinion that the match that lit the fire was thrown in from the outside. I was actually in Syria personally in the last month, people are greatful and look like they finally have hope after almost a decade of misery.
So after this, what can I possibly discuss with people that haven't been to Syria lately or actually took the time to pick the minds of Syrians but with foam coming out of their mouths assert that Russia invaded Syria against the will of the majority of the Syrians to prop up their despised dictator that gasses his people for fun (I don't have first hand facts regarding the supposed gas attacks, so this is my opinion, but just using logic - why the hell would the government resert to that when they are clearly winning the war? :roll:
Who doesn't believe me - go visit. Major cities on the coast are perfectly safe.

3) Outcast Russia - as I said, travel a lot. General opinion of people towards Russia is either poisitve of neutral. General opinion of the United States is negative or neutral.
Therefore I am making the conclusion that it definately is not Russia that is the outcast here, the world is more than the US and EU and people around the world are pretty fed up with western meddling. Not saying they are happy with Russia's role, maybe the positive view is because we haven't had a chance to screw up; many say they have a positive view of Russia because the legacy of Soviet assistance is still around, others because negative view of the west and that Russia is becoming the counterbalance to it.

Anyhow, those were facts I have seen and experienced first hand, and on this I base my conclusions. I find there to be way too much propaganda in Russian media and western media directed at each other that there is pretty much no truth to be found there.

As far as Ukraine goes and this particular topic, haven't been there since I think 2005 and have no desire to go. All my opinions are based on Ukrainians that I have met in Russia that fled that place, so their view is biased too. The opinions that I form about that place mostly comes from a Ukranian blogger, now a refugee living in the EU - Anatoliy Sharij ( https://www.youtube.com/user/SuperSharij ). this guy fled back when Yanukovitch was President and in his blog he puts a large accent on facts, after which he does or does not follow up with an opinion.
I think most of his blogs are in Russian unfortunately. But even look at western media lately that not so long ago were praising Poroshenko and Ukraine - even they look a little dissapointed as they can't continue with the rose glasses when looking at that place. He is just as corrupt and more of a dictator than Yanukovitch ever was. Ukraine is more of a lawless state than it was under Yanukovitch and this guy has a rating of around 15-20% with elections coming up in March?
Logic tells me this whole cherade with these 3 ships was a provocation by Ukraine and Russia fell for swallowed it hook line and sinker. As it only benefits Poroshenko and his gang and does no benefit to Russia or Putin, be it internally or externally.

It seems to me that everything you say to them here is meaningless. They do not understand what it means to "think with your head". And not accept any arguments except their own.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 7025
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:20 am

Scorpius wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
Wow, a lot of conversation has happened today, but I'm still hung up here:
Scorpius wrote:
Have you ever thought about the fact that Russia has much more reason to fear the invasion of NATO?

Скорпиус, my man, please let's just debate this real quick. I don't want to ignore the rest of your post but this statement is an actual brick wall we cannot get past.

Do you really, really think anyone in the West here wants to invade Russia?? I'm adding so much emphasis because it goes against, really, any common sense and anything any rational, sane person here thinks. I literally cannot think of anyone I've ever met or talked to that wants any kind of shooting war with Russia. I know that's an anecdote, you can probably Google and find a few nutjobs out there, but we have no intention, interest, or quite frankly, any benefit of invading you.

Honestly, over here, it's basically assumed that any such action between us will end in total annihilation.

Do Russians want to invade the US? Do Russians want a nuclear war?

Reflect upon those two questions. Us Westerners are humans too. I try not to make Russians "the other," please don't do the same to us, if you think it's completely stupid, pointless, and suicidal for NATO to invade you, it's probably the same for us. Please stop thinking we want to kill us all. We do not want your country!

Before debating the finer points, we have to get past this complete and utter disagreement. We've clashed in this thread but I think I've been way more than fair to you. I don't see how we can continue conversing if you think the West, Westerners, or even our "elites" want to invade your country. We'd just never agree


You're missing some objective facts. Thirty years ago, all these words could be attributed to all ATS countries. However, today they were gone NATO.
And if the only reason that NATO, as you say, does not want to take over our territories is our nuclear weapons, it is a direct proof that NATO wants to take over our territories. You see, nuclear weapons are not something that exists on its own. This is a very expensive industry, complex technologies. Not all countries in the world can afford it. And the damage to the economic condition of Russia is the damage, including the defense capability of Russia. For example, (hypothetically) the result of sanctions may be a moment when the Russian leadership will have to decide on what to spend their money on - to maintain nuclear weapons, or to feed their citizens. And if Russia does not have nuclear weapons...


NATO has no land on its own, so that is a false statement. And please point me out were NATO countries annexed land like Russia has done with Crimea and pseudo is doing in Ukraine and Georgia.

Putin regime would be better to truly work for Russians. Or better Russia would be better off without the Putin clan, but that is up to the Russians, nobody wants to remove Putin from power, nobody wants to invade Russia, doesn't matter if they have a nuclear deterent or not. Simple fact is that Russia isn't that important anymore.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 7025
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:26 am

Scorpius wrote:
It seems to me that everything you say to them here is meaningless. They do not understand what it means to "think with your head". And not accept any arguments except their own.


Anything you say is meaningless, Scorpius, because it is all Russian propaganda.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5906
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:39 am

Scorpius wrote:
And if the only reason that NATO, as you say, does not want to take over our territories is our nuclear weapons, it is a direct proof that NATO wants to take over our territories.

:white: I give up. This Andropov school of paranoid thought is too much for me.

Scorpius wrote:
For example, (hypothetically) the result of sanctions may be a moment when the Russian leadership will have to decide on what to spend their money on - to maintain nuclear weapons, or to feed their citizens.

Oh wait, you have gone off the script, again. The other Scorpius and tu204 claim that sanctions are the best thing ever and that everyone is thriving in Russia because of them. Please check with your political commissar and get back to us.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:08 pm

Scorpius wrote:
And if the only reason that NATO, as you say, does not want to take over our territories is our nuclear weapons, it is a direct proof that NATO wants to take over our territories.


ah.... no. Locking your door reduces the risk of someone getting in your house uninvited. That does in no way mean that everyone pointing that out to you wants to break into your home.

You see, nuclear weapons are not something that exists on its own.


Dang, i always figured they grow on trees....

This is a very expensive industry, complex technologies.


It is neither especially complex, nor especially expensive. North Korea has nukes and ICBMs and while that probably means they have reached about your level of technology, they are still piss poor.
If it was complex, you wouldn´t have nukes.No one would have had them until a few years ago. Nukes where designed, tested, produced and deployed by folks that had to do their math with pencil and paper for the most part, didn´t have anything resembling modern production equipment and only had limited understanding of reactors or all else associated with Nukes. There are only 47 advanced economies on this planet, and Russia ain´t one of them. North Korea isn´t either.

Not all countries in the world can afford it.


True... the poorest 50 or so probably can´t. Which mean

And the damage to the economic condition of Russia is the damage, including the defense capability of Russia. For example, (hypothetically) the result of sanctions may be a moment when the Russian leadership will have to decide on what to spend their money on - to maintain nuclear weapons, or to feed their citizens. And if Russia does not have nuclear weapons...


is nonsense. By the time you won´t be able to afford nuclear weapons, you can´t afford even token armed forces anymore. Your military is small enough as it is after all. So if you don´t have nukes anymore because you can´t afford them, you don´t have anything else to stop anyone from taking Russia either. Which also mean any buffer will be irrelevant.

With nukes you are safe, without nukes nothing can make you safe. And no one wants to take your territory, and there is no need to, as Russia is and always has been so desperate to get hard currency that we can just buy whatever you have and we want for much, much, much cheaper than taking it.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Scorpius
Posts: 793
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:09 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
as Russia is and always has been so desperate to get hard currency that we can just buy whatever you have and we want for much, much, much cheaper than taking it.
best regards
Thomas

Not everything in the world is measured in money, Tommy. And I didn't see listings for the type of "sell a little bit of Russia for a fair price" or "sell a little bit of the United States".

And I remind once more: the title of the topic "Should park several US Navy ships in waters near Ukraine Kerch Strait ? "
What does US Navy have to do with the sea, which is Russian territory?
How would you have reacted to the proposal to "Park a couple of ships of the Russian Navy at the mouth of the Hudson because of the "aggressive actions of the U.S. Coast guard against the Colombian drug lords"?"
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 7025
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:18 pm

Scorpius wrote:
What does US Navy have to do with the sea, which is Russian territory?


It isn't, so that is a false statement from you.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:40 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Not everything in the world is measured in money, Tommy.


True. There are also freedom, human rights and democracy. But you don't have those...

And I didn't see listings for the type of "sell a little bit of Russia for a fair price"


How do you think that Alaska became part of the US?

And I remind once more: the title of the topic "Should park several US Navy ships in waters near Ukraine Kerch Strait ? "
What does US Navy have to do with the sea, which is Russian territory?


This is non-aviation, not "fantasy world".

How would you have reacted to the proposal to "Park a couple of ships of the Russian Navy at the mouth of the Hudson because of the "aggressive actions of the U.S. Coast guard against the Colombian drug lords"?"


Well, the Hudson river is in fact US territory, but outside of territorial waters I would probably react the same way as I did when the red army was still real, was parked on my countries territory and was poised go get the rest too: pretty much ignore them.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
Tugger
Topic Author
Posts: 8459
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:14 pm

tu204 wrote:
1) Crimea - I even made a post about this when I visited in January 2015. People clearly had overwhelming support for leaving Ukraine and supported joining Russia. Although it was clear that the main point was to GTFO of Ukraine was the main concern, joining Russia was just a means of achieving this and security afterwards.
Just recently I met several Crimeans that were directly involved in the armed militia groups that they themselves formed to protect themselves from nationalist Ukranians that were trying to pay them not-so-friendly visits. These guys were not a handfull, they had massive support from other Crimeans and it was almost a week that they stood their ground before Russian Forces came in to reinforce them and guarantee that the refferendum could take place. During which, by the way nobody was threatened to vote either way or vote in general, there was widespread public support.
Therefore, after these facts what possible dialogue could I have with someone that does not accept these facts and throws back rubber stamp comments back at me, not having been there personally any not having talked to locals?


Then Russia has only itself to blame for the utter mess it is in now. Can't really argue that many in the Crimean peninsula were unhappy with the Ukraine governance. Nor that any vote would have resulted in them leaving (as I have noted before, a majority of the population in the Crimea are Russian soo...).

The problem is that Russia completely cocked up the entire situation. Even with locals creating their own militia etc. to protect themselves, it was Ukrainian territory, under their law and jurisdiction, and recognized as such by the entire world. By annexing the peninsula, by not slowing down and REQUIRING international support of some kind for it's independence, by not REQUIRING a fully independent commission to set up the poll AND including an option for independence, Russia made themselves judge, jury and executioner of the situation. Not a "liberator". And Russia will suffer the consequences of that ill thought action for years to come, even if the annexation becomes de-facto recognized someday.

It wouldn't have been that hard for them do "do it right" and out think the legal elements etc. But they chose not to do it and instead chose force and speed over a well thought plan and patience, and in a world that works hard to not have real wars where one country takes from another that is not acceptable. And to begin accepting such only invites more so it can't be allowed to happen unpunished.

I would say that is a fact too.

Scorpius wrote:
the sea, which is Russian territory?

Not the sea off the coast of the Crimea peninsula. That is Ukraine territorial waters. You might want to check with the UN and every other nation in the world....

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8406
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:17 am

[quote="tu204"][/quote]
Hey, long time no talk! Been very busy, might take a while to read and digest your post (and it seems like the conversation has moved on quite a bit already.)

Guess I have the same question for you... Do Russians actually think NATO has any interest in invading Russia? (Outside of Crimea actually, I do not want to get into the "is Crimea part or Ukraine or Russia" right now)

I keep coming back to that question because it honestly surprises me Scorpius thinks it's in the realm of possibility. I think it's as crazy as Russia invading the US. I mean relations between us are strained and we often work against each other via proxies (in Syria for example) but it's baffling that anyone would think that we have any interest in an invasion :eek:
 
Scorpius
Posts: 793
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:19 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Hey, long time no talk! Been very busy, might take a while to read and digest your post (and it seems like the conversation has moved on quite a bit already.)

Guess I have the same question for you... Do Russians actually think NATO has any interest in invading Russia? (Outside of Crimea actually, I do not want to get into the "is Crimea part or Ukraine or Russia" right now)

I keep coming back to that question because it honestly surprises me Scorpius thinks it's in the realm of possibility. I think it's as crazy as Russia invading the US. I mean relations between us are strained and we often work against each other via proxies (in Syria for example) but it's baffling that anyone would think that we have any interest in an invasion :eek:

Yes, the Russians do believe that NATO plans to invade Russia. Naturally, in Russia, as elsewhere, there are different opinion groups. But the policies pursued by the countries of the West in General and NATO in particular, a large part of the population of Russia are convinced that you are Russia's enemies. And note - these sentiments have nothing to do with Putin. First, Russia remembers very well how the West supported Chechen bandits in the nineties. Secondly, people see that Western countries contribute to the robbery of our country, taking the stolen capital, which is brought to the West by our oligarchs. Third, people see that the West did not care about Russia at a time when the West thought that Russia was out of the game - when people in the country were starving, Western countries of Russia did not provide any help, instead trying to steal as much money and resources as possible.
We remember how Western corporations that were engaged in resource development in Russia behaved - they did not comply with environmental requirements, they did not pay taxes, instead actively encouraging corruption in our country. Yes, they still do-Boeing, for example, does not even really hide that the royalty for the promotion of their products is 10% of the transaction value. We remember how our industry was strangled, deliberately destroying huge enterprises. This was all long before Putin appeared.
We remember very well how NATO attacked Yugoslavia, violating the requirements of the UN security Council. We remember how NATO attacked Iraq, Libya and Syria. Tell us, on what basis are NATO forces in Syria now? Who gave them the right to occupy the territory of this country and place their military bases there?
The attitude towards Russia as a whole in the world is either positive or neutral. It is enough to compare how they remember the Russians in Afghanistan, and how they talk about your military in Afghanistan. By the way, the Soviet military presence in Afghanistan lasted less than 10 years. NATO, and the US in particular, has been keeping its troops in Afghanistan for 17 years. Remind me, why is the USSR still condemned for military invasion of Afghanistan? What the US invasion and NATO in Afghanistan is held on some lawful osnovaniy? The USSR, at least, introduced troops at the request of the government of Afghanistan then. At whose request did the Yankees come to Afghanistan?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:44 am

Scorpius wrote:
Yes, the Russians do believe that NATO plans to invade Russia.


ah, good. So we just have to find a way to help Russians to get a grip on reality. Too bad the almost complete control of the media makes that hard. One could almost get the Impression your government wants Russians to believe that nonsense...

they did not comply with environmental requirements, they did not pay taxes, instead actively encouraging corruption in our country.


So, Business as usual? Companies usually adjust to the local business culture. My ex employer was a Russian owned holding company, their biggest problem hiring people in Moscow? Not paying money under the table on top of the official taxed pay, most candidates lost interest the moment they knew that.....

It is not foreign investors fault that the Russian government and economy is so corrupt that it makes the Peoples Republic of China look like a beacon of transparency. Evan Laos and Azerbaijan are less corrupt than Russia.....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
A3801000
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:14 am

I never understand how Russia wants to appear as a great, powerful and mighty force while at the same time play the poor, innocent, fragile victim. Ridiculous. The Scorpiis do it all the time here.
 
A3801000
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:20 pm

OTD in 1994 Russia signed the Budapest memo, guaranteeing Ukraine's territorial integrity in exchange for their nukes.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 7025
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:26 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
ah, good. So we just have to find a way to help Russians to get a grip on reality. Too bad the almost complete control of the media makes that hard. One could almost get the Impression your government wants Russians to believe that nonsense...


I think that is true. Create an outside enemy and a group will bind. The same goes for countries, so Putin needs to paint NATO as an enemy and does so all the time in the Putin regime-controlled media.

tommy1808 wrote:
So, Business as usual? Companies usually adjust to the local business culture. My ex employer was a Russian owned holding company, their biggest problem hiring people in Moscow? Not paying money under the table on top of the official taxed pay, most candidates lost interest the moment they knew that.....

It is not foreign investors fault that the Russian government and economy is so corrupt that it makes the Peoples Republic of China look like a beacon of transparency. Evan Laos and Azerbaijan are less corrupt than Russia.....


Yup, Russia is corrupt as hell. Putin isn't the only one whom became a billionaire many times over. As long as you serve Putin and the Putin regime, you will be fine. Indeed business as usual for Russia. Indeed many companies stay well clear of Russia.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Tugger
Topic Author
Posts: 8459
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:18 pm

A3801000 wrote:
I never understand how Russia wants to appear as a great, powerful and mighty force while at the same time play the poor, innocent, fragile victim. Ridiculous.

Remember, Russia suffers from a deeply ingrained inferiority complex.

They "want to be great" but inside know/fear that they are not great, or worse: the world does not recognize their greatness. SO they puff up their chest, do "powerful things" and act tough out of fear to prove they are not inferior. And all the while they do not understand that they do not have to do those things "to be great", they have the history, the technology, and the land and resources and people, to just be great without provocation and without fear.

But so far I have not seen them getting over their inferiority complex. I think the break up of the Soviet Union has left them scared of what might happen next and it will take decades more to get over and recover.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8406
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:09 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Yes, the Russians do believe that NATO plans to invade Russia.

Well my question was directed towards tu204, I know your opinions on the matter, I still find it hard to believe that average Russians would think your country would be invaded.

Do you think Russia wants to invade Europe? That is the fear of many Europeans. If you think "that's silly, Russia would never invade Europe!" perhaps you should stop and reflect, maybe we think the same thing about invading Russia (though ironically, the case of Russia invading Europe is probably stronger since Russia actually militarily intervened in Ukraine)

All you did in your post was list a bunch of times we were opposed and working against each other. Not gonna debate every point but I'll for a minute pretend I agree with everything... So what? A jump from that to invasion is massive, not even comparable. We had no want to invade you in the Cold War when tensions were even higher, we have no intention now. It's as silly as you invading the US

If you really think any of us want to invade you, you really need to rethink your views on us. Maybe we can continue to disagree on many things but as far as us invading you, you are wrong, not gonna happen. None of us, our "elites", or our "propaganda" even hints that we want to or should. If you're hearing that, the BS is probably coming from your end and really bolsters the claim that we are being exaggerated as a scapegoat...

I repeat, the only time I've heard anything about NATO invading Russia is from you. Seriously. Isn't that kind of telling?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 7025
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:27 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
[Do you think Russia wants to invade Europe? That is the fear of many Europeans.


Which countries do you think that are afraid of Russians? Baltic states, perhaps - although NATO protected, but I can't think of any others within the EU and/or NATO. I know of no persons, in real life, whom thinks that Russia wants to invade Europe, none. Most people view Russia as a nuisance and the culprit of the murder on 298 people ( shooting down of the MH17 ).
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 7025
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:36 pm

Tugger wrote:
Remember, Russia suffers from a deeply ingrained inferiority complex.

They "want to be great" but inside know/fear that they are not great, or worse: the world does not recognize their greatness. SO they puff up their chest, do "powerful things" and act tough out of fear to prove they are not inferior. And all the while they do not understand that they do not have to do those things "to be great", they have the history, the technology, and the land and resources and people, to just be great without provocation and without fear.

But so far I have not seen them getting over their inferiority complex. I think the break up of the Soviet Union has left them scared of what might happen next and it will take decades more to get over and recover.


I think you are correct. Look at how many people in the UK are still longing for the days of the Empire with the never-setting sun and that broke up over 70 years ago and its heyday was over 100years ago. Or look at the Turkish people, they still look at the Ottoman empire which ended also almost 100years ago. In that perspective, we have a long time to go for Russians to accept that their 2nd place with the USSR ended in 1989-1991, almost 30 years ago. and is gone for good.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8406
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:30 am

Dutchy wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
[Do you think Russia wants to invade Europe? That is the fear of many Europeans.


Which countries do you think that are afraid of Russians? Baltic states, perhaps

Yeah them, not talking about all the way to Portugal or anything

For the record, I don't think those states are going to be invaded but it is a concern for them and a reason why they're so friendly to NATO
 
alfa164
Posts: 2320
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:36 am

Who knew Trump read A.net to utilize its foreign policy expertise?

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/05/poli ... index.html

I am guessing the Russia "hardliners" did a lot of convincing; he and his man-friend Putin must be on the outs...

;)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: akiss20, bagoldex, lugie, ozglobal, petertenthije, scbriml, SQ948 and 21 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos