Redd
Posts: 691
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:22 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Okay genius, how do you suggest we club Russia back into it's hole then, without starting a nuclear war in the process?

That's the typical narrative of advocates of Russia's endless appeasment: either let neostalinist Russia do whatever it wants or else we all die in nuclear armageddon the next day.
There is a number of options... let's start with REAL sanctions this time... Aeroflot, Lukoil, Gazprom, Sberbank.



I have to agree with you there. People tend to forget very recent history and the results of appeasement towards Russia
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:29 am

WIederling wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Okay genius, how do you suggest we club Russia back into it's hole then, without starting a nuclear war in the process?

That's the typical narrative of advocates of Russia's endless appeasment: either let neostalinist Russia do whatever it wants or else we all die in nuclear armageddon the next day.
There is a number of options... let's start with REAL sanctions this time... Aeroflot, Lukoil, Gazprom, Sberbank.


I'd really look out to sanctioning Ukrainian participants.
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 34511.html

Looks like Choco Poro started this to be able to pronounce martial law and put the upcoming election on the back burner.
Beyond his oligarch partners nobody in Ukraine seems to be happy with his presidency. His reelection is very questionable.


Hahaha... regardless on why, what and who, it happend on Ukrainian territory and Russia has no business being there.

Sanctions should be increased every 1st of the month regardless of day to day politics, until the occupation is over.

That is one of the only two correct reactions to Russia's actions, the other was demonstrated after Saddam invaded Kuwait.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:30 am

VSMUT wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
No, you don't let a revisionist revanchist power run amok. If you like peace of course. If Germany was clubbed backed into its hole during re-militarization of Rhineland, WWII wouldn't have happened.


Okay genius, how do you suggest we club Russia back into it's hole then, without starting a nuclear war in the process?


Bleeding them dry, by a thousand of vicious paper cuts -- including cutting most of ways to earn foreign exchange, is not a bad idea.

But there is a truth in saying that the necessary needed to be done before the horses have bolted. In 1992, exchanging Russian nuclear capability for some food, was the proper way.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
salttee
Posts: 2814
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:33 am

WIederling wrote:
I'd really look out to sanctioning Ukrainian participants.
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 34511.html

Looks like Choco Poro started this to be able to pronounce martial law and put the upcoming election on the back burner.
Beyond his oligarch partners nobody in Ukraine seems to be happy with his presidency. His reelection is very questionable.


The OP is about "Ukraine accuses Russia of firing on, seizing three of its ships" and you want to change the conversation to a propaganda attack on the Ukraine political system?
Nice try.

BTW
Your link begins with the term "Russophobic politicians" and I surmise that you are calling most everyone here Russophobic posters: right? You're going to have some trouble selling that, along with the idea that: "at the very beginning: in 2014, a Western-backed coup took place in Kiev". Only the Russians call the Maidan revolution a "coup". So much for your link.
 
Scorpius
Posts: 793
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:53 am

Once again I read that BS that Europeans and Americans write here - and once again I laugh. NATO ships in Crimea? LOL, at the slightest attempt of aggression, these ships can feel how quickly Russian anti-ship missiles will reach them.
New sanctions? LOL. Continue-these sanctions undermine the global system of trade relations and undermine trust in Western countries. The more sanctions you impose-the sooner the West will be in the dustbin of history.
In turn, if Russia stops the supply of gas and oil to Europe, titanium for Airbus and Boeing - we will see how you will solve the situation.
Europe over the past three hundred years, many times going to "reassure Russia" - and each time it ended up that Russian troops held parades in the capitals of Europe.
You can try to disconnect Russia from the Internet - and then Russia will disconnect all of you from the Internet. It is enough to destroy only a few key nodes.
Any hostile move towards Russia brings you closer to a full-scale war.
 
Scorpius
Posts: 793
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:10 pm

salttee wrote:
WIederling wrote:
I'd really look out to sanctioning Ukrainian participants.
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 34511.html

Looks like Choco Poro started this to be able to pronounce martial law and put the upcoming election on the back burner.
Beyond his oligarch partners nobody in Ukraine seems to be happy with his presidency. His reelection is very questionable.


The OP is about "Ukraine accuses Russia of firing on, seizing three of its ships" and you want to change the conversation to a propaganda attack on the Ukraine political system?
Nice try.

BTW
Your link begins with the term "Russophobic politicians" and I surmise that you are calling most everyone here Russophobic posters: right? You're going to have some trouble selling that, along with the idea that: "at the very beginning: in 2014, a Western-backed coup took place in Kiev". Only the Russians call the Maidan revolution a "coup". So much for your link.


Ukrainian ships violated the order of access to the territory of the Azov sea, violated international rules of navigation, penetrated into the territorial waters of the Russian Federation, did not obey the legal requirements of the border service of the Russian Federation.

The network already has records of radio exchange on the air between the border service of the Russian Federation and the crews of Ukrainian ships. Russians at first long begged Ukrainians not to break rules, then long asked to stop and lie down in drift, then long warned that will open fire in case of non-compliance of requirements. Then they gave a warning shot. And only then opened fire on defeat and detained violators of border.


Ukraine was required to perform a number of simple actions: to warn in advance about the need to pass its vessels through the Kerch Strait, to take on Board a pilot who would help to carry out the passage - and this, in fact - everything. Let me remind you that about a couple of months ago, Ukraine freely held its ships in the sea of Azov (following all the necessary procedures). Why this time was not to comply with exactly the same requirements? It is clear to any sane person that this is an ordinary provocation.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3059
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:20 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Once again I read that BS that Europeans and Americans write here - and once again I laugh. NATO ships in Crimea? LOL, at the slightest attempt of aggression, these ships can feel how quickly Russian anti-ship missiles will reach them.
New sanctions? LOL. Continue-these sanctions undermine the global system of trade relations and undermine trust in Western countries. The more sanctions you impose-the sooner the West will be in the dustbin of history.
In turn, if Russia stops the supply of gas and oil to Europe, titanium for Airbus and Boeing - we will see how you will solve the situation.


Buying elsewhere. World markets and all that. My gas comes from Algeria, for instance.

A country with a GDP smaller than Italy and 2/3 of its exports coming from oil and gas isn't really in a good position for a trade war.
 
salttee
Posts: 2814
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:22 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Ukrainian ships violated the order of access to the territory of the Azov sea, violated international rules of navigation, penetrated into the territorial waters of the Russian Federation, did not obey the legal requirements of the border service of the Russian Federation.

The network already has records of radio exchange on the air between the border service of the Russian Federation and the crews of Ukrainian ships. Russians at first long begged Ukrainians not to break rules, then long asked to stop and lie down in drift, then long warned that will open fire in case of non-compliance of requirements. Then they gave a warning shot. And only then opened fire on defeat and detained violators of border.


Ukraine was required to perform a number of simple actions: to warn in advance about the need to pass its vessels through the Kerch Strait, to take on Board a pilot who would help to carry out the passage - and this, in fact - everything. Let me remind you that about a couple of months ago, Ukraine freely held its ships in the sea of Azov (following all the necessary procedures). Why this time was not to comply with exactly the same requirements? It is clear to any sane person that this is an ordinary provocation.

The fact is, Russia wants to force Ukraine to give up its sovereignty over Crimea by the use of military power. That is something Ukraine understandably will not do. Caving in to aggression is never a good idea.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:30 pm

Scorpius wrote:
we will see how you will solve the situation.


Easy. We just buy Russia after it defaulted.

NATO ships in Crimea? LOL, at the slightest attempt of aggression, these ships can feel how quickly Russian anti-ship missiles will reach them.


Correct, not the right environment. Still lots of economic sanctions that could be done, next step: Sanction each and every company that does business with russian companies, transports anything to and from Russia or facilitates money transfers for Russian entities.

We would quickly see who rather does business with the US or the EU than that micro-economy Russia. I am also in favor of putting tariffs on Russian gas and oil and use that money to finance renewable, that would be the perfect balance between keeping Russia on a financial leash and bankrupting it in the long run. China seems to aim for bankrupting Russia sooner, not sure if that is smart.

But Putin's rabid actions in Ukrainian waters where to be expected considering that polls just showed he is amazingly unpopular in Russia. Putin would be happy if he was trusted as much as Trump is.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Scorpius
Posts: 793
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:32 pm

JJJ wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Once again I read that BS that Europeans and Americans write here - and once again I laugh. NATO ships in Crimea? LOL, at the slightest attempt of aggression, these ships can feel how quickly Russian anti-ship missiles will reach them.
New sanctions? LOL. Continue-these sanctions undermine the global system of trade relations and undermine trust in Western countries. The more sanctions you impose-the sooner the West will be in the dustbin of history.
In turn, if Russia stops the supply of gas and oil to Europe, titanium for Airbus and Boeing - we will see how you will solve the situation.


Buying elsewhere. World markets and all that. My gas comes from Algeria, for instance.

A country with a GDP smaller than Italy and 2/3 of its exports coming from oil and gas isn't really in a good position for a trade war.


As for the arguments of the type of gas from Algeria-the share of Russian gas in the EU market - 34%. Try to take and give up 34% of everything.
And when you finally give up, taking a deep toll on your economy, we will sell our gas to China, accelerating the growth of its power.
However, apart from China, we can accelerate the development of Iran, for example. Well, for example, we will provide them with technologies for the production of weapons-grade plutonium and nuclear missiles (as the US once provided such technologies to Pakistan).
We can also deploy our nuclear missile launch systems in Cuba and Venezuela, for example. And Yes-the day will come when there will be no more sanctions that you can take. And for Russia in this case there will be no deterrents not to return all their land lost after the collapse of the USSR. And what will you do then? Will you issue a strong condemnation? We don't care.


Your line of conduct leads to a dead end, at the end of which there is a global nuclear war.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3059
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:35 pm

Scorpius wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Once again I read that BS that Europeans and Americans write here - and once again I laugh. NATO ships in Crimea? LOL, at the slightest attempt of aggression, these ships can feel how quickly Russian anti-ship missiles will reach them.
New sanctions? LOL. Continue-these sanctions undermine the global system of trade relations and undermine trust in Western countries. The more sanctions you impose-the sooner the West will be in the dustbin of history.
In turn, if Russia stops the supply of gas and oil to Europe, titanium for Airbus and Boeing - we will see how you will solve the situation.


Buying elsewhere. World markets and all that. My gas comes from Algeria, for instance.

A country with a GDP smaller than Italy and 2/3 of its exports coming from oil and gas isn't really in a good position for a trade war.


As for the arguments of the type of gas from Algeria-the share of Russian gas in the EU market - 34%. Try to take and give up 34% of everything.
And when you finally give up, taking a deep toll on your economy, we will sell our gas to China, accelerating the growth of its power.
However, apart from China, we can accelerate the development of Iran, for example. Well, for example, we will provide them with technologies for the production of weapons-grade plutonium and nuclear missiles (as the US once provided such technologies to Pakistan).
We can also deploy our nuclear missile launch systems in Cuba and Venezuela, for example. And Yes-the day will come when there will be no more sanctions that you can take. And for Russia in this case there will be no deterrents not to return all their land lost after the collapse of the USSR. And what will you do then? Will you issue a strong condemnation? We don't care.


Your line of conduct leads to a dead end, at the end of which there is a global nuclear war.


Cool story bro. Makes for a nice James Bond film, I'll give you that.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 7025
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:36 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Once again I read that BS that Europeans and Americans write here - and once again I laugh. NATO ships in Crimea? LOL, at the slightest attempt of aggression, these ships can feel how quickly Russian anti-ship missiles will reach them.
New sanctions? LOL. Continue-these sanctions undermine the global system of trade relations and undermine trust in Western countries. The more sanctions you impose-the sooner the West will be in the dustbin of history.
In turn, if Russia stops the supply of gas and oil to Europe, titanium for Airbus and Boeing - we will see how you will solve the situation.
Europe over the past three hundred years, many times going to "reassure Russia" - and each time it ended up that Russian troops held parades in the capitals of Europe.
You can try to disconnect Russia from the Internet - and then Russia will disconnect all of you from the Internet. It is enough to destroy only a few key nodes.
Any hostile move towards Russia brings you closer to a full-scale war.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: I missed you man, leaving us stranded with the official Russian view and all for a few weeks, I can alwaysuse a good laugh and these post don't dissepoint me at all. Is your partner in crime also planning its return? Must have had a few weeks of after working overtime with the American elections and all.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
Posts: 793
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:39 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
we will see how you will solve the situation.


Easy. We just buy Russia after it defaulted.

NATO ships in Crimea? LOL, at the slightest attempt of aggression, these ships can feel how quickly Russian anti-ship missiles will reach them.


Correct, not the right environment. Still lots of economic sanctions that could be done, next step: Sanction each and every company that does business with russian companies, transports anything to and from Russia or facilitates money transfers for Russian entities.

We would quickly see who rather does business with the US or the EU than that micro-economy Russia. I am also in favor of putting tariffs on Russian gas and oil and use that money to finance renewable, that would be the perfect balance between keeping Russia on a financial leash and bankrupting it in the long run. China seems to aim for bankrupting Russia sooner, not sure if that is smart.

But Putin's rabid actions in Ukrainian waters where to be expected considering that polls just showed he is amazingly unpopular in Russia. Putin would be happy if he was trusted as much as Trump is.

best regards
Thomas


You write amazing things, Tommy. Then again. Try to do what you say-and the West will lose the remaining influence in the world in your lifetime. Russia cannot be defeated by sanctions. All you can do is freak out here on the forum. If the West does not want to trade with Russia - we have Asia, South America, Africa - everywhere there will be willing to work with Russia, trade with Russia, to help Russia. Russia, in return, will provide access to its resources. Keep doing what you're doing - and Russia will really become an enemy to the West.
 
Scorpius
Posts: 793
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Once again I read that BS that Europeans and Americans write here - and once again I laugh. NATO ships in Crimea? LOL, at the slightest attempt of aggression, these ships can feel how quickly Russian anti-ship missiles will reach them.
New sanctions? LOL. Continue-these sanctions undermine the global system of trade relations and undermine trust in Western countries. The more sanctions you impose-the sooner the West will be in the dustbin of history.
In turn, if Russia stops the supply of gas and oil to Europe, titanium for Airbus and Boeing - we will see how you will solve the situation.
Europe over the past three hundred years, many times going to "reassure Russia" - and each time it ended up that Russian troops held parades in the capitals of Europe.
You can try to disconnect Russia from the Internet - and then Russia will disconnect all of you from the Internet. It is enough to destroy only a few key nodes.
Any hostile move towards Russia brings you closer to a full-scale war.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: I missed you man, leaving us stranded with the official Russian view and all for a few weeks, I can alwaysuse a good laugh and these post don't dissepoint me at all. Is your partner in crime also planning its return? Must have had a few weeks of after working overtime with the American elections and all.



Is that the best you can do? I'm laughing at your anger.
 
Scorpius
Posts: 793
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:51 pm

JJJ wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Buying elsewhere. World markets and all that. My gas comes from Algeria, for instance.

A country with a GDP smaller than Italy and 2/3 of its exports coming from oil and gas isn't really in a good position for a trade war.


As for the arguments of the type of gas from Algeria-the share of Russian gas in the EU market - 34%. Try to take and give up 34% of everything.
And when you finally give up, taking a deep toll on your economy, we will sell our gas to China, accelerating the growth of its power.
However, apart from China, we can accelerate the development of Iran, for example. Well, for example, we will provide them with technologies for the production of weapons-grade plutonium and nuclear missiles (as the US once provided such technologies to Pakistan).
We can also deploy our nuclear missile launch systems in Cuba and Venezuela, for example. And Yes-the day will come when there will be no more sanctions that you can take. And for Russia in this case there will be no deterrents not to return all their land lost after the collapse of the USSR. And what will you do then? Will you issue a strong condemnation? We don't care.


Your line of conduct leads to a dead end, at the end of which there is a global nuclear war.


Cool story bro. Makes for a nice James Bond film, I'll give you that.


So you haven't thought about anything. Well.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:55 pm

Scorpius wrote:
As for the arguments of the type of gas from Algeria-the share of Russian gas in the EU market - 34%. Try to take and give up 34% of everything.


Russian gas is less than 10% of Europe´s energy supply. The only reason why we buy Russian gas is because it is a little bit cheaper, single digit percent. So you are talking to make our Energy 0.x percent more expensive.... energy prices fluctuate more in a day than the worst you can hope to do to us.

we will sell our gas to China, accelerating the growth of its power.


You already do sell your gas to China, and apparently you where desperate enough to find demand for your supply that the deal is close to bankrupting Gazprom....
Please... do more of those deals, please, i beg you.

However, apart from China, we can accelerate the development of Iran, for example. Well, for example, we will provide them with technologies for the production of weapons-grade plutonium and nuclear missiles (as the US once provided such technologies to Pakistan).


Good idea. First of all the Iranian government is smart enough not to use those weapons, in fact in the past they where even smart enough not to have nuclear weapons despite having everything they need for a dozen or so, and that will get the sanctions lifted if they play it smart. You know, the sanctions that Trump just was ordered to bring back because low oil prices kill you.

We can also deploy our nuclear missile launch systems in Cuba and Venezuela, for example.


How are you going to that? Both countries have made their territory nuclear weapon free zones. Plan to invade them to bring your missiles there? I don´t think you can take on the Cuban Forces outside of your wildest dreams.

And Yes-the day will come when there will be no more sanctions that you can take.


That we can take? Hahahahaha..... if Russia was replaced by open water tomorrow, hardly anyone would notice its gone.

And for Russia in this case there will be no deterrents not to return all their land lost after the collapse of the USSR. And what will you do then?


We end you. Once and for all. The same way Japan and Germany ended in 1945, because everyone knows, it is either that or

global nuclear war.


which by the way you can not win anymore than anybody else.
But the simple fact that the US could kill hundreds of Russian troops in Syria without as much as a serious complaint from the Kremlin tells us that Putin only blusters for domestic consumption.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:14 pm

JJJ wrote:
Scorpius wrote:

Cool story bro. Makes for a nice James Bond film, I'll give you that.


Isn´t it cute how he thinks Russia is relevant? Heck, they are so short on money that Russia had to significantly reduce its military budged for the first time in 20 years.

The desperation is plain and obvious to see by the simple fact that the Kremlins austerity politics are reaching areas where no amount of government propaganda or bribing accountants can hide the fact.
For the all so mightly military it is hard to keep track of all the cancelled, postponed and reduced projects having to absorb a 17% budget shrink, all while central Europe is a plus 12%. Or in other words Europe just went from outspending Russia 1:3 to 1:4, and that is without maintaining an enormous extinction level nuklear arsenal.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Scorpius
Posts: 793
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:20 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
As for the arguments of the type of gas from Algeria-the share of Russian gas in the EU market - 34%. Try to take and give up 34% of everything.


Russian gas is less than 10% of Europe´s energy supply. The only reason why we buy Russian gas is because it is a little bit cheaper, single digit percent. So you are talking to make our Energy 0.x percent more expensive.... energy prices fluctuate more in a day than the worst you can hope to do to us.

we will sell our gas to China, accelerating the growth of its power.


You already do sell your gas to China, and apparently you where desperate enough to find demand for your supply that the deal is close to bankrupting Gazprom....
Please... do more of those deals, please, i beg you.

However, apart from China, we can accelerate the development of Iran, for example. Well, for example, we will provide them with technologies for the production of weapons-grade plutonium and nuclear missiles (as the US once provided such technologies to Pakistan).


Good idea. First of all the Iranian government is smart enough not to use those weapons, in fact in the past they where even smart enough not to have nuclear weapons despite having everything they need for a dozen or so, and that will get the sanctions lifted if they play it smart. You know, the sanctions that Trump just was ordered to bring back because low oil prices kill you.

We can also deploy our nuclear missile launch systems in Cuba and Venezuela, for example.


How are you going to that? Both countries have made their territory nuclear weapon free zones. Plan to invade them to bring your missiles there? I don´t think you can take on the Cuban Forces outside of your wildest dreams.

And Yes-the day will come when there will be no more sanctions that you can take.


That we can take? Hahahahaha..... if Russia was replaced by open water tomorrow, hardly anyone would notice its gone.

And for Russia in this case there will be no deterrents not to return all their land lost after the collapse of the USSR. And what will you do then?


We end you. Once and for all. The same way Japan and Germany ended in 1945, because everyone knows, it is either that or

global nuclear war.


which by the way you can not win anymore than anybody else.
But the simple fact that the US could kill hundreds of Russian troops in Syria without as much as a serious complaint from the Kremlin tells us that Putin only blusters for domestic consumption.

best regards
Thomas

In your dreams, Tommy. In your dreams.
Your statements do not contain even 1% of the truth. You're carrying some fierce BS - and that's good. The easier we'll beat you.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8406
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:59 pm

Scorpius wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Once again I read that BS that Europeans and Americans write here - and once again I laugh. NATO ships in Crimea? LOL, at the slightest attempt of aggression, these ships can feel how quickly Russian anti-ship missiles will reach them.
New sanctions? LOL. Continue-these sanctions undermine the global system of trade relations and undermine trust in Western countries. The more sanctions you impose-the sooner the West will be in the dustbin of history.
In turn, if Russia stops the supply of gas and oil to Europe, titanium for Airbus and Boeing - we will see how you will solve the situation.


Buying elsewhere. World markets and all that. My gas comes from Algeria, for instance.

A country with a GDP smaller than Italy and 2/3 of its exports coming from oil and gas isn't really in a good position for a trade war.


As for the arguments of the type of gas from Algeria-the share of Russian gas in the EU market - 34%. Try to take and give up 34% of everything.
And when you finally give up, taking a deep toll on your economy, we will sell our gas to China, accelerating the growth of its power.
However, apart from China, we can accelerate the development of Iran, for example. Well, for example, we will provide them with technologies for the production of weapons-grade plutonium and nuclear missiles (as the US once provided such technologies to Pakistan).
We can also deploy our nuclear missile launch systems in Cuba and Venezuela, for example. And Yes-the day will come when there will be no more sanctions that you can take. And for Russia in this case there will be no deterrents not to return all their land lost after the collapse of the USSR. And what will you do then? Will you issue a strong condemnation? We don't care.


Your line of conduct leads to a dead end, at the end of which there is a global nuclear war.

I miss having a Russian perspective, but really? I honestly thought you were trolling until I saw a few posts from you. Is this what average Russians think? That all China needs for explosive growth is the privilege of more coveted Russian gas? And nukes in Cuba and Venezuela!? :rotfl:
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:11 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Your statements do not contain even 1% of the truth. You're carrying some fierce BS - and that's good. The easier we'll beat you.


Since you fail to be specific your statement is just blustering, and that is due to the fact that it contains 100% truth. But i guess your script has run out.

DeltaMD90 wrote:
I miss having a Russian perspective, but really? I honestly thought you were trolling until I saw a few posts from you. Is this what average Russians think?


Nah, the vast majority of Russians doesn´t think Putin is even trustworthy.

That all China needs for explosive growth is the privilege of more coveted Russian gas?


that Russia has to subsidize, since they lose money on the deal unless energy prices get higher, which they won´t. Putin decided to rather bleed money that sending all those workers home.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Scorpius
Posts: 793
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:22 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Buying elsewhere. World markets and all that. My gas comes from Algeria, for instance.

A country with a GDP smaller than Italy and 2/3 of its exports coming from oil and gas isn't really in a good position for a trade war.


As for the arguments of the type of gas from Algeria-the share of Russian gas in the EU market - 34%. Try to take and give up 34% of everything.
And when you finally give up, taking a deep toll on your economy, we will sell our gas to China, accelerating the growth of its power.
However, apart from China, we can accelerate the development of Iran, for example. Well, for example, we will provide them with technologies for the production of weapons-grade plutonium and nuclear missiles (as the US once provided such technologies to Pakistan).
We can also deploy our nuclear missile launch systems in Cuba and Venezuela, for example. And Yes-the day will come when there will be no more sanctions that you can take. And for Russia in this case there will be no deterrents not to return all their land lost after the collapse of the USSR. And what will you do then? Will you issue a strong condemnation? We don't care.


Your line of conduct leads to a dead end, at the end of which there is a global nuclear war.

I miss having a Russian perspective, but really? I honestly thought you were trolling until I saw a few posts from you. Is this what average Russians think? That all China needs for explosive growth is the privilege of more coveted Russian gas? And nukes in Cuba and Venezuela!? :rotfl:


The main thing I'm saying here is that the West lies too much about Russia.
You and the others grew up in the conditions of total propaganda about bad Russians who want to take something there. In reality, Russia's actions are just a response to certain steps on the part of the West. You threaten us-we respond to these threats. You are moving NATO to our borders-we are taking reciprocal steps to ensure our security. About nuclear missiles in Venezuela and Cuba - this is just one of the options of response that Russia can implement in response to the aggressive policy of the West. That is, you do not understand the meaning of my comment - and again began to invent something in the paradigm of their perception of the world through the filter of Western propaganda.

I will try to write even easier:
1. Since the collapse of the USSR, the West has taken a number of steps that Russia regards as extremely hostile.
2. Russia currently saw that the West's inability and acts in the interest of preserving its security and sovereignty.
3. The West continues to take unquestionably hostile steps towards Russia.
4. Russia is tightening its response.

XX. Total nuclear war.

In the interval between (4) and (XX) Russia can, using non-military methods, significantly complicate the life of Western countries. For example, to strengthen opponents of the West: both China and Iran. In Russia there is everything necessary for this - a huge amount of resources, developed scientific and industrial base, developed science. The actions of Western politicians will eventually lead to the fact that Russia will turn away from the West. And strengthen the opponents of the West.

And once again, all Russia's actions are just a response to the aggressive policy of the West.
Your politicians are trying to put out the fire by pouring gasoline on it.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3059
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:25 pm

Scorpius wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Scorpius wrote:

As for the arguments of the type of gas from Algeria-the share of Russian gas in the EU market - 34%. Try to take and give up 34% of everything.
And when you finally give up, taking a deep toll on your economy, we will sell our gas to China, accelerating the growth of its power.
However, apart from China, we can accelerate the development of Iran, for example. Well, for example, we will provide them with technologies for the production of weapons-grade plutonium and nuclear missiles (as the US once provided such technologies to Pakistan).
We can also deploy our nuclear missile launch systems in Cuba and Venezuela, for example. And Yes-the day will come when there will be no more sanctions that you can take. And for Russia in this case there will be no deterrents not to return all their land lost after the collapse of the USSR. And what will you do then? Will you issue a strong condemnation? We don't care.


Your line of conduct leads to a dead end, at the end of which there is a global nuclear war.


Cool story bro. Makes for a nice James Bond film, I'll give you that.


So you haven't thought about anything. Well.


I thought about an alien invasion scenario and still seemed more plausible than yours.

The Russia stronk rhetoric is too predictable at this point.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:34 pm

Scorpius wrote:
a huge amount of resources,


you may want to check out the concept of "commodity".

developed scientific and industrial base, developed science.


Hilarious. Russia makes pretty much nothing that China isn´t already better at.

And once again, all Russia's actions are just a response to the aggressive policy of the West.


Yeah, being against Russian aggression is so aggressive.

Your politicians are trying to put out the fire by pouring gasoline on it.


yeah, there is your developed scientific base, newsflash: you can put out fire with gasoline.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Scorpius
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:36 pm

salttee wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Ukrainian ships violated the order of access to the territory of the Azov sea, violated international rules of navigation, penetrated into the territorial waters of the Russian Federation, did not obey the legal requirements of the border service of the Russian Federation.

The network already has records of radio exchange on the air between the border service of the Russian Federation and the crews of Ukrainian ships. Russians at first long begged Ukrainians not to break rules, then long asked to stop and lie down in drift, then long warned that will open fire in case of non-compliance of requirements. Then they gave a warning shot. And only then opened fire on defeat and detained violators of border.


Ukraine was required to perform a number of simple actions: to warn in advance about the need to pass its vessels through the Kerch Strait, to take on Board a pilot who would help to carry out the passage - and this, in fact - everything. Let me remind you that about a couple of months ago, Ukraine freely held its ships in the sea of Azov (following all the necessary procedures). Why this time was not to comply with exactly the same requirements? It is clear to any sane person that this is an ordinary provocation.

The fact is, Russia wants to force Ukraine to give up its sovereignty over Crimea by the use of military power. That is something Ukraine understandably will not do. Caving in to aggression is never a good idea.

Ukraine does not and did not have sovereignty over Crimea. I recall that Ukraine, in fact, annexed Crimea in the 1990s, unilaterally depriving Crimea of its sovereignty and abolishing its Constitution.
Residents of Crimea were very dissatisfied with this fact, and used the coup in Ukraine as an occasion to declare the Ukrainian government illegitimate, restore its sovereignty and withdraw from Ukraine. And only after that Crimea became part of Russia.

And before you evaluate the actions of Russia, you should ask the opinion of the inhabitants of the Crimea about what country they consider themselves: Russia or Ukraine. However, at any time you can come to the Crimea in person - and talk to the locals. Those few European politicians who decided to come and understand the situation on the ground, for some reason say that Crimea is Russia. However, they still do not listen and declare agents of the Kremlin.
 
Scorpius
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:41 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Your politicians are trying to put out the fire by pouring gasoline on it.


yeah, there is your developed scientific base, newsflash: you can put out fire with gasoline.



A dull attempt. I know about ways to extinguish a fire with fuel without your amazing advice. However, you're trying to cling to a common expression. "putting out a fire with gasoline" is a common idiomatic expression, so your attempts to make fun of it seem rather pathetic.
I can tell you're running out of real arguments.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:47 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Russia or Ukraine..


oh.. that is why your Dictator in the Kremlin didn´t put "independence" on the ballot of that fake vote......
Scorpius wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Your politicians are trying to put out the fire by pouring gasoline on it.


yeah, there is your developed scientific base, newsflash: you can put out fire with gasoline.

I know about ways to extinguish a fire with fuel without your amazing advice.


yeah, don´t start one.

I can tell you're running out of real arguments.


oh come on, it is pretty hard to come up with real arguments against made up nonsense, Comical-Scorpious. After all you still fantasize about the great, technological advanced Russian economy after it was proven to you a Gazillion times that Russia makes pretty much nothing that is marketable on this planet.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Loran
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:18 pm

Quite entertaining read in here.

While I personally enjoy travelling to Russia and have various Russian friends, I do question the political path it is going. Looking back into the recent years, I wonder where there was any positive or progressive contributions to the world. It comes to mind:
- Russian forces fighting in Ukraine
- Annexation of Crimea
- Involvement into the downing of MH17
- Skripal murder, Litvinenko poisoning in foreign countries
- Influencing US elections
- Influencing other European elections
- Various hacking attacks
- Financing and supporting populist forces in Europe to weaken the EU/Europe
- Support of various dictatorships

I don't claim the West is doing everything right, however Russia could make it much easier for the west in simply not exclusively producing negative news.

Also, referring to all the legitimation attempts of the Crimea annexation, I’d love to see what Putin would do if separatist forces from outside Russia would break out a piece of land from the Russian map, irrespective if the local population wants to leave Russia or not. Be sure of a big scale war. Double standards at its best.

Regards,
Loran
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Scorpius
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:18 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Russia or Ukraine..


oh.. that is why your Dictator in the Kremlin didn´t put "independence" on the ballot of that fake vote......
Scorpius wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:


yeah, there is your developed scientific base, newsflash: you can put out fire with gasoline.

I know about ways to extinguish a fire with fuel without your amazing advice.


yeah, don´t start one.

I can tell you're running out of real arguments.


oh come on, it is pretty hard to come up with real arguments against made up nonsense, Comical-Scorpious. After all you still fantasize about the great, technological advanced Russian economy after it was proven to you a Gazillion times that Russia makes pretty much nothing that is marketable on this planet.

best regards
Thomas

How easy it is to refute your lies about Crimea:
Image

This is a sample ballot for the referendum held in Crimea in March 2014.

This Bulletin contains two versions (each duplicated three times-in Russian, Ukrainian and Crimean Tatar):
1. "Are you for the reunification of Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?»
2. "You for restoration of action of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea of 1992 and for the status of the Crimea as part of Ukraine?»


And here, for example, the data of telephone surveys conducted by the Ukrainian Agency at the same time:
http://avaazpress.s3.amazonaws.com/558_Crimea.Referendum.Poll.GfK.pdf

And that's all you have - you believe what you were told on TV, and convince others of this.

The rest of your BS isn't even worth the time to write a comment on it.
 
Scorpius
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:31 pm

Loran wrote:
Quite entertaining read in here.

While I personally enjoy travelling to Russia and have various Russian friends, I do question the political path it is going. Looking back into the recent years, I wonder where there was any positive or progressive contributions to the world. It comes to mind:
- Russian forces fighting in Ukraine
- Annexation of Crimea
- Involvement into the downing of MH17
- Skripal murder, Litvinenko poisoning in foreign countries
- Influencing US elections
- Influencing other European elections
- Various hacking attacks
- Financing and supporting populist forces in Europe to weaken the EU/Europe
- Support of various dictatorships

I don't claim the West is doing everything right, however Russia could make it much easier for the west in simply not exclusively producing negative news.

Also, referring to all the legitimation attempts of the Crimea annexation, I’d love to see what Putin would do if separatist forces from outside Russia would break out a piece of land from the Russian map, irrespective if the local population wants to leave Russia or not. Be sure of a big scale war. Double standards at its best.

Regards,
Loran


See, your problem is you list all these reasons, but you don't think they're all false. Russia did not participate in the shooting down of MH17. There are no Russian troops in Ukraine. Crimea was not annexed. Skripal was not killed, and Russia has nothing to do with his poisoning of the relationship. Russia has not interfered in elections anywhere (at least not to a greater extent than you constantly interfere in our elections). About hacker attacks, too, no evidence is presented.

But you only believe it because you're told to on TV. Or you read it in the papers. Or even in Internet have read. You took the position in advance "all Western media and politicians tell the truth, and all Russian media and politicians lie". However, this is a primitive position, which is a consequence of the fact that you are in a constant action on you propaganda machine of the West.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:34 pm

Scorpius wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Your politicians are trying to put out the fire by pouring gasoline on it.


yeah, there is your developed scientific base, newsflash: you can put out fire with gasoline.



A dull attempt. I know about ways to extinguish a fire with fuel without your amazing advice. However, you're trying to cling to a common expression. "putting out a fire with gasoline" is a common idiomatic expression, so your attempts to make fun of it seem rather pathetic.
I can tell you're running out of real arguments.

I see we have Scropius 2.0 responding today!

On the topic, it appears other in the US may agree with my thought:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin ... -sanctions

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Tugger
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:41 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Russia did not participate in the shooting down of MH17. There are no Russian troops in Ukraine. Crimea was not annexed. Skripal was not killed, and Russia has nothing to do with his poisoning of the relationship. Russia has not interfered in elections anywhere (at least not to a greater extent than you constantly interfere in our elections). About hacker attacks, too, no evidence is presented.

But you only believe it because you're told to on TV. Or you read it in the papers. Or even in Internet have read. You took the position in advance "all Western media and politicians tell the truth, and all Russian media and politicians lie". However, this is a primitive position, which is a consequence of the fact that you are in a constant action on you propaganda machine of the West.


Scorpius wrote:
you only believe it because you're told to on TV. Or you read it in the papers. Or even in Internet have read.

And you beleive your points because .... ? You were there at each event? Live?

At least we have an actual independent press, and media, and myriad other independent sources to get information from.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Scorpius
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Tugger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:


yeah, there is your developed scientific base, newsflash: you can put out fire with gasoline.



A dull attempt. I know about ways to extinguish a fire with fuel without your amazing advice. However, you're trying to cling to a common expression. "putting out a fire with gasoline" is a common idiomatic expression, so your attempts to make fun of it seem rather pathetic.
I can tell you're running out of real arguments.

I see we have Scropius 2.0 responding today!

On the topic, it appears other in the US may agree with my thought:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin ... -sanctions

Tugg


You trying to make me sound like different people is really stupid.

About the links on the next delusional offer - well, in this case, I think it would be fair to send a group of Russian Pacific fleet to the shores of the United States. Show that not only the US can try to Express something there.

But if I were you, I would worry that this demonstration of US power in the Black sea would not end the same way as the last demonstration of force somewhere in Norway:
Image
Last edited by Scorpius on Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:50 pm

Right. Entities like "Scorpius" probably have a right to speak, because... well, freedom of speech. But sane humans have no need to listen to entities like "Scorpius" or other propaganda machine metastases -- because freedom of speech, by definition, means also freedom to disregard false speech. Moving on.
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Scorpius
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:54 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Right. Entities like "Scorpius" probably have a right to speak, because... well, freedom of speech. But sane humans have no need to listen to entities like "Scorpius" or other propaganda machine metastases -- because freedom of speech, by definition, means also freedom to disregard false speech. Moving on.

Very primitive manipulation. It you are the propaganda tool - I reasonably explain the point of view.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:04 pm

Scorpius wrote:
1. "Are you for the reunification of Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?»
2. "You for restoration of action of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea of 1992 and for the status of the Crimea as part of Ukraine?»


As claimed, independence wasn't on the ballot. Putin knew why he didn't even put it in his fake vote.

Scorpius wrote:
. Russia did not participate in the shooting down of MH17.


You are right. Russia didn't participate, you murdered those people all on your own.

There are no Russian troops in Ukraine.


So where is that war happening with all those burned out wrecks of a T72 version only ever delivered to the Russian Army?
And it is an obvious lie since there are Russian Troops in Crimea, which is Ukraine.

Crimea was not annexed.


Russia claims it is Russian territory, while it is Ukrainian, and did so after sending troops there holding a fake vote. That is pretty much what you call annexing...

Skripal was not killed,


I recall he was killed by a Russian WMD attack, which by the way is a crime against humanity.

and Russia has nothing to do with his poisoning of the relationship.


Riiiigght... aside of the illegal occupation of Ukrainian territory you mean?

Russia has not interfered in elections anywhere (at least not to a greater extent than you constantly interfere in our elections).


Hahaha.... we did not interfere, although we did....

About hacker attacks, too, no evidence is presented.


Just breaking: we caught you again trying to get into German systems...

But you only believe it because you're told to on TV. Or you read it in the papers. Or even in Internet have read.


I am pretty sure you still pretend Ukraine is Russian territory, bold move to claim that is fake news....

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:08 pm

Scorpius wrote:
- well, in this case, I think it would be fair to send a group of Russian Pacific fleet to the shores of the United States.


Yeah, will be fun to watch it return after running out of food and fuel after a few weeks, as the US Pacific cost is well beyond Russia's joke of a navy's ability to supply.

Unless you mean just one or two ships by "group".

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
JJJ
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:08 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:

A dull attempt. I know about ways to extinguish a fire with fuel without your amazing advice. However, you're trying to cling to a common expression. "putting out a fire with gasoline" is a common idiomatic expression, so your attempts to make fun of it seem rather pathetic.
I can tell you're running out of real arguments.

I see we have Scropius 2.0 responding today!

On the topic, it appears other in the US may agree with my thought:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin ... -sanctions

Tugg


You trying to make me sound like different people is really stupid.

About the links on the next delusional offer - well, in this case, I think it would be fair to send a group of Russian Pacific fleet to the shores of the United States. Show that not only the US can try to Express something there.

But if I were you, I would worry that this demonstration of US power in the Black sea would not end the same way as the last demonstration of force somewhere in Norway:
Image


Are we really going to discuss peacetime accidents?

Because Russia's record there is a couple degrees below abysmal.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:11 pm

JJJ wrote:
Because Russia's record there is a couple degrees below abysmal.


Where do they maintain their only carrier again... Oh yeah, right, nowhere, they managed to sink their single, imported, means to do it.....

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:31 pm

Tugger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:


yeah, there is your developed scientific base, newsflash: you can put out fire with gasoline.



A dull attempt. I know about ways to extinguish a fire with fuel without your amazing advice. However, you're trying to cling to a common expression. "putting out a fire with gasoline" is a common idiomatic expression, so your attempts to make fun of it seem rather pathetic.
I can tell you're running out of real arguments.

I see we have Scropius 2.0 responding today!


Or 3.0. After all he doesn't seem to remember that we caught him making two very different replies to the same port at the same time, deleting one when it was pointed out to him, and then lying about its content a while back.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:51 pm

So Trump has stepped up and decided not to meet with Putin at the G20 in Argentina due to Russia seizure of the Ukraine ships.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump- ... e-tensions
"Based on the fact that the ships and sailors have not been returned to Ukraine from Russia, I have decided it would be best for all parties concerned to cancel my previously scheduled meeting in Argentina with President Vladimir Putin,” he tweeted Thursday.

“I look forward to a meaningful Summit again as soon as this situation is resolved!” he added.


Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:00 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Once again I read that BS that Europeans and Americans write here - and once again I laugh. NATO ships in Crimea? LOL, at the slightest attempt of aggression, these ships can feel how quickly Russian anti-ship missiles will reach them.
New sanctions? LOL. Continue-these sanctions undermine the global system of trade relations and undermine trust in Western countries. The more sanctions you impose-the sooner the West will be in the dustbin of history.
In turn, if Russia stops the supply of gas and oil to Europe, titanium for Airbus and Boeing - we will see how you will solve the situation.
Europe over the past three hundred years, many times going to "reassure Russia" - and each time it ended up that Russian troops held parades in the capitals of Europe.
You can try to disconnect Russia from the Internet - and then Russia will disconnect all of you from the Internet. It is enough to destroy only a few key nodes.
Any hostile move towards Russia brings you closer to a full-scale war.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: I missed you man, leaving us stranded with the official Russian view and all for a few weeks, I can alwaysuse a good laugh and these post don't dissepoint me at all. Is your partner in crime also planning its return? Must have had a few weeks of after working overtime with the American elections and all.



Is that the best you can do? I'm laughing at your anger.


Yup, the best I can do given the limited time I wanted to spend on your "contributions". Anger? Something must have been lost in translation. :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:04 am

Scorpius wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:

As for the arguments of the type of gas from Algeria-the share of Russian gas in the EU market - 34%. Try to take and give up 34% of everything.
And when you finally give up, taking a deep toll on your economy, we will sell our gas to China, accelerating the growth of its power.
However, apart from China, we can accelerate the development of Iran, for example. Well, for example, we will provide them with technologies for the production of weapons-grade plutonium and nuclear missiles (as the US once provided such technologies to Pakistan).
We can also deploy our nuclear missile launch systems in Cuba and Venezuela, for example. And Yes-the day will come when there will be no more sanctions that you can take. And for Russia in this case there will be no deterrents not to return all their land lost after the collapse of the USSR. And what will you do then? Will you issue a strong condemnation? We don't care.


Your line of conduct leads to a dead end, at the end of which there is a global nuclear war.

I miss having a Russian perspective, but really? I honestly thought you were trolling until I saw a few posts from you. Is this what average Russians think? That all China needs for explosive growth is the privilege of more coveted Russian gas? And nukes in Cuba and Venezuela!? :rotfl:


The main thing I'm saying here is that the West lies too much about Russia.
You and the others grew up in the conditions of total propaganda about bad Russians who want to take something there. In reality, Russia's actions are just a response to certain steps on the part of the West. You threaten us-we respond to these threats. You are moving NATO to our borders-we are taking reciprocal steps to ensure our security. About nuclear missiles in Venezuela and Cuba - this is just one of the options of response that Russia can implement in response to the aggressive policy of the West. That is, you do not understand the meaning of my comment - and again began to invent something in the paradigm of their perception of the world through the filter of Western propaganda.

I will try to write even easier:
1. Since the collapse of the USSR, the West has taken a number of steps that Russia regards as extremely hostile.
2. Russia currently saw that the West's inability and acts in the interest of preserving its security and sovereignty.
3. The West continues to take unquestionably hostile steps towards Russia.
4. Russia is tightening its response.

XX. Total nuclear war.

In the interval between (4) and (XX) Russia can, using non-military methods, significantly complicate the life of Western countries. For example, to strengthen opponents of the West: both China and Iran. In Russia there is everything necessary for this - a huge amount of resources, developed scientific and industrial base, developed science. The actions of Western politicians will eventually lead to the fact that Russia will turn away from the West. And strengthen the opponents of the West.

And once again, all Russia's actions are just a response to the aggressive policy of the West.
Your politicians are trying to put out the fire by pouring gasoline on it.

I'll actually agree with you on one point... I don't think we have a good understanding of Russia and sometimes our media can be dismissive of Russia. We over here think nothing of it, but to Russians, it's enraging.

To an extent.

That's about where our agreement ends. I find it ironic you accuse us of blindly swallowing Western propaganda then shamelessly throw out every pro Russian argument/propaganda you can think of.

You should pick your battles better. I'm sure if you lowered your defenses a bit and we talked out some details, you'd admit Russia often screws things up, just like the West does at times/often. Acknowledge where you do it wrong and stand up for the arguments you actually have solid footing on. You'd go a lot further and might actually change some minds.

Because currently, most of your arguments are pretty out there. You act like Russia is this technological marvel that can do no wrong. Be honest with us otherwise this is gonna be a super unproductive argument
 
Scorpius
Posts: 793
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:13 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
I miss having a Russian perspective, but really? I honestly thought you were trolling until I saw a few posts from you. Is this what average Russians think? That all China needs for explosive growth is the privilege of more coveted Russian gas? And nukes in Cuba and Venezuela!? :rotfl:


The main thing I'm saying here is that the West lies too much about Russia.
You and the others grew up in the conditions of total propaganda about bad Russians who want to take something there. In reality, Russia's actions are just a response to certain steps on the part of the West. You threaten us-we respond to these threats. You are moving NATO to our borders-we are taking reciprocal steps to ensure our security. About nuclear missiles in Venezuela and Cuba - this is just one of the options of response that Russia can implement in response to the aggressive policy of the West. That is, you do not understand the meaning of my comment - and again began to invent something in the paradigm of their perception of the world through the filter of Western propaganda.

I will try to write even easier:
1. Since the collapse of the USSR, the West has taken a number of steps that Russia regards as extremely hostile.
2. Russia currently saw that the West's inability and acts in the interest of preserving its security and sovereignty.
3. The West continues to take unquestionably hostile steps towards Russia.
4. Russia is tightening its response.

XX. Total nuclear war.

In the interval between (4) and (XX) Russia can, using non-military methods, significantly complicate the life of Western countries. For example, to strengthen opponents of the West: both China and Iran. In Russia there is everything necessary for this - a huge amount of resources, developed scientific and industrial base, developed science. The actions of Western politicians will eventually lead to the fact that Russia will turn away from the West. And strengthen the opponents of the West.

And once again, all Russia's actions are just a response to the aggressive policy of the West.
Your politicians are trying to put out the fire by pouring gasoline on it.

I'll actually agree with you on one point... I don't think we have a good understanding of Russia and sometimes our media can be dismissive of Russia. We over here think nothing of it, but to Russians, it's enraging.

To an extent.

That's about where our agreement ends. I find it ironic you accuse us of blindly swallowing Western propaganda then shamelessly throw out every pro Russian argument/propaganda you can think of.

You should pick your battles better. I'm sure if you lowered your defenses a bit and we talked out some details, you'd admit Russia often screws things up, just like the West does at times/often. Acknowledge where you do it wrong and stand up for the arguments you actually have solid footing on. You'd go a lot further and might actually change some minds.

Because currently, most of your arguments are pretty out there. You act like Russia is this technological marvel that can do no wrong. Be honest with us otherwise this is gonna be a super unproductive argument


Let's first clarify the position:
1.
You act like Russia is this technological marvel that can do no wrong.

This statement is wrong. I've never written anything like this. I argue that Russia has its own national interests, which the West does not take into account. Not to take into account the interests of Russia over the past years - it was stupid. And if before the West could not reckon with our opinion simply because we were on the verge of extinction-now you get a backlash.

My claims to the leadership of Russia are more in the sphere of domestic policy - but this is a question on which we are unlikely to reach an understanding, because I firmly believe that capitalism is a vicious system that must be eradicated. Only a Communist society is viable. And I note - really Communist society, as he understood, for example, Ivan Efremov - Soviet cosmist, writer and scientist. What is called communism in the West-in fact, communism has never been, but was socialism-a crooked type of transition from capitalism to communism. And even this curve was significantly influenced by the world War II, and the Cold war that followed.

If we consider the foreign policy of Russia-then personally in my opinion, the Russian leadership is acting exclusively powerless. With the West it is possible to speak only one language - the language of power. Otherwise, your politicians are not capable of negotiations. Only the threat of an immediate and brutal strike on any EU or NATO country can make you finally realize that you have no moral or real superiority over Russia or any other country.

And these are my arguments-a consequence of the experience that Russia has received, making concessions on the results of the Cold war. After all, what do we see? All the countries from which we withdrew our troops are now our enemies and support our enemies. Of the Republic, to whom we have given independence - are now our enemies. The Baltic States, which only as part of Russia has gained its statehood - our enemy. Ukraine is our enemy. Georgia is our enemy. Hence the conclusion-to give them independence was a mistake. And even the fact that they became our enemies is understandable. It's very simple-the local elites, who seized power there, can hold this power only in one way - if their policy is based on the confrontation of Russia. Because otherwise, the very centripetal processes that previously brought all these territories into the Russian state will work again. Whatever the authorities of Ukraine, the Baltic States or Georgia say, for example, we are essentially a single people existing in a single space. There are fewer cultural differences between us than between the French and the Spanish, for example. But France and Spain United in the European Union. In the same way, all these pseudo-independent republics of the former USSR without artificial separation of the peoples living there will unite together.

And this Association is fiercely afraid of the parochial elite - it will mean the end of their power, the removal of their financial flows. Your politicians are well aware that if Russia unites the adjacent territories, it will turn out to be a state even more powerful than the Soviet Union - and this will actually mean that Europe in General will roll back somewhere on the margins of the political process in the world. The United States will receive a competitor, which will not be able to give a civilizational rebuff, and as a result, the American world order, which was so diligently built by the United States for more than a century, will simply collapse. And the US will lose power over the world.

This is my point of view on the political processes in the world.

Can you justify your point of view without propaganda clichés about bad Putin or Stalin?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 7025
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:08 am

Scorpius wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
Scorpius wrote:

The main thing I'm saying here is that the West lies too much about Russia.
You and the others grew up in the conditions of total propaganda about bad Russians who want to take something there. In reality, Russia's actions are just a response to certain steps on the part of the West. You threaten us-we respond to these threats. You are moving NATO to our borders-we are taking reciprocal steps to ensure our security. About nuclear missiles in Venezuela and Cuba - this is just one of the options of response that Russia can implement in response to the aggressive policy of the West. That is, you do not understand the meaning of my comment - and again began to invent something in the paradigm of their perception of the world through the filter of Western propaganda.

I will try to write even easier:
1. Since the collapse of the USSR, the West has taken a number of steps that Russia regards as extremely hostile.
2. Russia currently saw that the West's inability and acts in the interest of preserving its security and sovereignty.
3. The West continues to take unquestionably hostile steps towards Russia.
4. Russia is tightening its response.

XX. Total nuclear war.

In the interval between (4) and (XX) Russia can, using non-military methods, significantly complicate the life of Western countries. For example, to strengthen opponents of the West: both China and Iran. In Russia there is everything necessary for this - a huge amount of resources, developed scientific and industrial base, developed science. The actions of Western politicians will eventually lead to the fact that Russia will turn away from the West. And strengthen the opponents of the West.

And once again, all Russia's actions are just a response to the aggressive policy of the West.
Your politicians are trying to put out the fire by pouring gasoline on it.

I'll actually agree with you on one point... I don't think we have a good understanding of Russia and sometimes our media can be dismissive of Russia. We over here think nothing of it, but to Russians, it's enraging.

To an extent.

That's about where our agreement ends. I find it ironic you accuse us of blindly swallowing Western propaganda then shamelessly throw out every pro Russian argument/propaganda you can think of.

You should pick your battles better. I'm sure if you lowered your defenses a bit and we talked out some details, you'd admit Russia often screws things up, just like the West does at times/often. Acknowledge where you do it wrong and stand up for the arguments you actually have solid footing on. You'd go a lot further and might actually change some minds.

Because currently, most of your arguments are pretty out there. You act like Russia is this technological marvel that can do no wrong. Be honest with us otherwise this is gonna be a super unproductive argument


Let's first clarify the position:
1.
You act like Russia is this technological marvel that can do no wrong.

This statement is wrong. I've never written anything like this. I argue that Russia has its own national interests, which the West does not take into account. Not to take into account the interests of Russia over the past years - it was stupid. And if before the West could not reckon with our opinion simply because we were on the verge of extinction-now you get a backlash.

My claims to the leadership of Russia are more in the sphere of domestic policy - but this is a question on which we are unlikely to reach an understanding, because I firmly believe that capitalism is a vicious system that must be eradicated. Only a Communist society is viable. And I note - really Communist society, as he understood, for example, Ivan Efremov - Soviet cosmist, writer and scientist. What is called communism in the West-in fact, communism has never been, but was socialism-a crooked type of transition from capitalism to communism. And even this curve was significantly influenced by the world War II, and the Cold war that followed.

If we consider the foreign policy of Russia-then personally in my opinion, the Russian leadership is acting exclusively powerless. With the West it is possible to speak only one language - the language of power. Otherwise, your politicians are not capable of negotiations. Only the threat of an immediate and brutal strike on any EU or NATO country can make you finally realize that you have no moral or real superiority over Russia or any other country.

And these are my arguments-a consequence of the experience that Russia has received, making concessions on the results of the Cold war. After all, what do we see? All the countries from which we withdrew our troops are now our enemies and support our enemies. Of the Republic, to whom we have given independence - are now our enemies. The Baltic States, which only as part of Russia has gained its statehood - our enemy. Ukraine is our enemy. Georgia is our enemy. Hence the conclusion-to give them independence was a mistake. And even the fact that they became our enemies is understandable. It's very simple-the local elites, who seized power there, can hold this power only in one way - if their policy is based on the confrontation of Russia. Because otherwise, the very centripetal processes that previously brought all these territories into the Russian state will work again. Whatever the authorities of Ukraine, the Baltic States or Georgia say, for example, we are essentially a single people existing in a single space. There are fewer cultural differences between us than between the French and the Spanish, for example. But France and Spain United in the European Union. In the same way, all these pseudo-independent republics of the former USSR without artificial separation of the peoples living there will unite together.

And this Association is fiercely afraid of the parochial elite - it will mean the end of their power, the removal of their financial flows. Your politicians are well aware that if Russia unites the adjacent territories, it will turn out to be a state even more powerful than the Soviet Union - and this will actually mean that Europe in General will roll back somewhere on the margins of the political process in the world. The United States will receive a competitor, which will not be able to give a civilizational rebuff, and as a result, the American world order, which was so diligently built by the United States for more than a century, will simply collapse. And the US will lose power over the world.

This is my point of view on the political processes in the world.

Can you justify your point of view without propaganda clichés about bad Putin or Stalin?


Welcome Scorpius mk 3 we mist you too. Coherent, not abusive and arguing - somewhat.
1. communism failed
2. capitalism --> Russia is a super-capitalist state, so you condemn your leader Putin for this? Interesting
3. still overestimating the powers of Russia, Russia has the economy of Italy, not much room to maneuver, just a regional power in the hands of an autocrat
4. Ukraine and Georgia are your enemies because you invaded them, that does something in regards of a relationship
5. the Baltic States are your enemy on historic grounds

I still maintain, it is up to Putin's regime to decide if they want to steer Russia into the future and level it's importance to its actions, or does it want to maintain it's rogue state status. Up to Putin and to a lesser extent the Russian people.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:58 am

Dutchy wrote:
Welcome Scorpius mk 3 we mist you too. Coherent, not abusive and arguing - somewhat. .


I think he gave a pretty good recap of the Lebensraum Ost as a way to word dominance mistake that worked out so well, or the southern resource area for the same goal, with the same devastating result.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
WIederling
Posts: 7098
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:59 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
You act like Russia is this technological marvel that can do no wrong.


Strange that US posters don't recognize their reflection. :-))
Murphy is an optimist
 
salttee
Posts: 2814
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:18 pm

Scorpius wrote:
I firmly believe that capitalism is a vicious system that must be eradicated.

With that, you've painted yourself into the same corner that the SU was trapped in for 70 years.
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:33 pm

salttee wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
I firmly believe that capitalism is a vicious system that must be eradicated.

With that, you've painted yourself into the same corner that the SU was trapped in for 70 years.

Oh, but that is irrelevant, that they painted themselves in the corner; it would be marvelous if they rot there, not disturbing their neighbours, and spreading this rot elsewhere

Trouble is, they refuse to do so, and instead invade neighbours, who try to escape their claws. So, declawing them and cordoning off is the minimum; finishing off the wretched beast is the optimum outcome.

Moscovia esse delendam.
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Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
WIederling
Posts: 7098
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:51 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Moscovia esse delendam.


you do know the circumstances of the original quote?

The Roman Empire's needs was to "fix up" Carthago to remove them as a trade competitor
to achieve domination of the Mediterranean coastlines.
No moral superiority at all.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8406
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:57 am

Scorpius wrote:
because I firmly believe that capitalism is a vicious system that must be eradicated. Only a Communist society is viable. And I note - really Communist society, as he understood, for example, Ivan Efremov - Soviet cosmist, writer and scientist. What is called communism in the West-in fact, communism has never been, but was socialism-a crooked type of transition from capitalism to communism. And even this curve was significantly influenced by the world War II, and the Cold war that followed.

Yeah, and my ideal society would have no crime, everyone would take care of each other and work hard, etc. Not very realistic. I hear the "true communism works, but every time it has been tried it wasn't real communism" argument from time to time. I don't think it's realistic, or at least it's as realistic as my no-crime utopia


Scorpius wrote:
And these are my arguments-a consequence of the experience that Russia has received, making concessions on the results of the Cold war. After all, what do we see? All the countries from which we withdrew our troops are now our enemies and support our enemies. Of the Republic, to whom we have given independence - are now our enemies. The Baltic States, which only as part of Russia has gained its statehood - our enemy. Ukraine is our enemy. Georgia is our enemy. Hence the conclusion-to give them independence was a mistake.

Perhaps it isn't Ukraine's, Georgia's, Estonia's, Latvia's, Lithuania's, etc fault. Maybe they didn't enjoy the Soviet utopia and are very unpleased with Russia's current actions.

It's not always the case, to be fair, but doesn't it give you pause that your former satellite states increasing want nothing to do with you and view you as hostile? I'd give the people of that country a little more credit than treating them like puppets of the West


Scorpius wrote:
Can you justify your point of view without propaganda clichés about bad Putin or Stalin?

Well considering I haven't used propaganda clichés about bad Putin or Stalin, um, yes?

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