GalaxyFlyer
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:27 pm

The F-150 four-door pickup is basically the Ford Galaxie for the modern era. CAFE standards drove the design of cars smaller and smaller, but light trucks were mostly exempt, so people decided on what they wanted.

GF
 
StarAC17
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:47 am

tommy1808 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, they expect those buyers to go other producers, there’s not enough profit for GM to cater to those buyers. It’s opportunity cost—GM thinks it’s better off using the capital and labor to build other cars.

GF


I find it rather odd that they expect no brand loyalty from car customers. Most people around me stick to the brand of their first car, unless it was a real troublemaker, for a long, long time and several vehicles.
Almost everyone making small/compact/cheap economy cars also has everything up to upper class in their line up or brand family.

Makes me wonder how many people in the US driving a VW, Audi or Porsche had a rabbit or beetle as their first car.

Best regards
Thomas


Not many I guess. But with the Japanese and Korean manufacturers there is probably a lot more loyalty as many of the German brands are seen as luxury cars in North America VW being the only one that is not. Audi and Porsche are absolutely luxury card and while Mercedes and BMW have more affordable models, there is nothing really competing with the Civic, Cruze, Corolla etc.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
StarAC17
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:52 am

Flighty wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
I still don't understand this "let them buy a bigger car" attitude. Do the GM top managers really believe that the person who has a budget for a Cruze will drive away in a Malibu or Equinox instead of going to the neighbours and drive away in an Elantra? Or a Civic for that matter?
How far from reality these people are?


Certainly. Truck/SUV are now the majority of the market. And Truck/SUV is probably >100% of the Big 3 profitability. (meaning, 100% of profits, and they lose money on everything else).

It's not far from reality at all. Sedans are going away. Actually, a sedan doesn't make sense anyhow. It was just a temporary trend. Hatchbacks are going to continue to be popular. Even a Suburban is a hatchback, just a really big one.

GM managers were in a tough spot. >100% of your profit comes from a tariff-protected large truck product line. Now what? Sit there forever? Won't the Suburban end someday? Then how will GM make money?

I think the large pickup track craze will go away. Most buyers do not need them. They are fashion accessories like a fat banker might wear a cowboy hat at his desk. Same thing. (Oh but!) My cars are fashion accessories too, I own it. I don't "need" an SUV and neither does anyone else.

So GM needs to quit the charade, be honest about 2018 business model (=trucks) and think about 2025 business model now. Otherwise GM is done.


The full size sedan is on the way out but I see a ton of Civics, Corolla, Elantra sedans out there I do see the transition to hatchback models of those cars but I would hardly classify them as SUV's as they really aren't any higher and use the same drive-train. I can agree that those are more in style but to say that everyone is buying V6 SUV is really not that true at all.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:01 am

The bad taste GM left in consumer’s mouths hasn’t helped. Toyota, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai all build sedansand successfully, too. GM and Ford exist on pickups.
 
Flighty
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:54 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
Flighty wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
I still don't understand this "let them buy a bigger car" attitude. Do the GM top managers really believe that the person who has a budget for a Cruze will drive away in a Malibu or Equinox instead of going to the neighbours and drive away in an Elantra? Or a Civic for that matter?
How far from reality these people are?


Certainly. Truck/SUV are now the majority of the market. And Truck/SUV is probably >100% of the Big 3 profitability. (meaning, 100% of profits, and they lose money on everything else).

It's not far from reality at all. Sedans are going away. Actually, a sedan doesn't make sense anyhow. It was just a temporary trend. Hatchbacks are going to continue to be popular. Even a Suburban is a hatchback, just a really big one.

GM managers were in a tough spot. >100% of your profit comes from a tariff-protected large truck product line. Now what? Sit there forever? Won't the Suburban end someday? Then how will GM make money?

I think the large pickup track craze will go away. Most buyers do not need them. They are fashion accessories like a fat banker might wear a cowboy hat at his desk. Same thing. (Oh but!) My cars are fashion accessories too, I own it. I don't "need" an SUV and neither does anyone else.

So GM needs to quit the charade, be honest about 2018 business model (=trucks) and think about 2025 business model now. Otherwise GM is done.


The full size sedan is on the way out but I see a ton of Civics, Corolla, Elantra sedans out there I do see the transition to hatchback models of those cars but I would hardly classify them as SUV's as they really aren't any higher and use the same drive-train. I can agree that those are more in style but to say that everyone is buying V6 SUV is really not that true at all.


Right the fuel mileage should continue to edge up. Today’s Honda CR-V is the same size as yesterday’s Ford Explorer or Jeep Grand Cherokee. To your point, the best selling cars and SUV are primarily 4 cylinder cars.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:14 am

I was one of those of which you speak, a high school educated person. I was paid 30 bucks plus and hour and benefits. I earned in the six figures and that does not include benefits and I have been retired 21 years come Jan 1. Do you want to compare your net worth against mine? Do you have any idea what once was possible in the USA.. The American Dream, stolen from almost everyone except the Elite Class. As I said when one does not have a clue, one should be quiet, and I am being polite. :banghead::banghead:


But, but, but, it is not fair, but, but, but it was possible and very common in the USA. If you would at least try to research something, you would find out that for many many years, every generation in the US left the next generation better off. Not so anymore because of weak people who support those who screw us over. The Orange mane man being one. Mane, hmmn! applies to horses and that fits, he is a horse's ass and so are many of his followers it seems. Not all of course, I know a few and are friends with them and worked with them. I have never heard one of them who voted for him and who received the same pay and benefits as I ever complain about our standard of living. Funny that. By the way, I do not need to brag, I am trying to teach the blind who will not see. The American dream has been stolen.



http://www.providencejournal.com/news/2 ... own-shares


Yes, yes, we are the greedy ones according to you. try explaining this case of greed and who is accused of it. :banghead::banghead:
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.


He's been like that for a long time, sadly. Taken the pages from Alinsky's Rules for Radicals in his normal discourse.


Like what, a realist ? Do I call anyone dumb, stupid, filthy names ? Do I lie, exaggerate? Do I spread false information? Read my words above, I speak from experience, my experiences. What I say, I believe. Does it make it true? Not always, when I do make a mistake, I try to admit it. I try to follow the rules of the Forum about insults and language. I have had very few of my replies deleted in the last few years. Very few. I use the icons to speak for me many times to express my frustration without insult. I do not suffer fools lightly, and there are some on here for sure, maybe even me to some. We are after all supposed to be adults, are we not? I try never to be crude, just a realist. I try to defend the worker class, not the Elites and the greedy.


WarRI, I wish you would be more respectful of those who disagree with you on here. To call someone clueless and unintelligent for speaking his mind is a low blow for someone like you, who I used to respect.

If I have been short and abrupt lately or for a long period, read some of the words from persons to which I have been so. I try to respect good opinions, not mindless ones. As I have said many times, I know who is screwing me and my family and friends and country and I have made that very clear over the years and will continue to do so. I am not on here to make friends, just to express my opinion, which maybe too harsh for some as I see here.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:26 pm

Nice rant WarRI1, but you completely missed who the real economic “enemy” of the “American Dream” is or was, depending on your view. It mostly emphatically is not “the rich”, the “elites” or “greeedy”. They may have a supporting role.

The enemy was in two actors-one foreign and one domestic. Their “greed” was wanting a better deal in life, like everyone. Better for themselves and their offspring. They got it thru globalization aided by nearly free container transport.

The foreign “enemy” was the poor bastars in a hovel in China, India, Costa Rica, Thailand and a dozen locations. He was willing to work for, by our standards, terrible wages that lifted him and his family out of poverty, to educate his kids, actually have a vacation.

The domestic “enemy” was your neighbor on Worcester who looked at getting a TV from China at half the cost of a domestic Magnavoz taking the savings to buy some new clothes. We all like a bargain or better quality for less.

The car industry and its unions thought voluntary import controls would solve their problems. It did just long enough to find a new “enemy”—Americans just like those foreign bastards. Every foreign car builder now builds down South.

Welcome to the real enemy—consumers who want a better deal and producers who meet that desire in search of better life for themselves. Not as satisfying as replaying the French Revolution or wallowing in envy but the facts never are. The dream you dream of was the province of relatively few Americans and died because it wasn’t sustainable in the face of competition.

GF
 
WIederling
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:19 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
There must be mistake. Gas is currently about a buck per liter here, so the saved fuel alone would be enough for 3000+ km in a Civic. That's a lot of driving.
That said, if I'd by driving 3000+ km per month, I wouldn't do it in a Civic (or any other compact for that matter).


About 10 years ago I did ~~55,000km/year. every year.
I never saw a reason to have a BIG car and lose lots of money in the process.
Roads are very good and you don't need a wobbling divan to not despair from driving here.
But with the fuel prices ( ~1.5Euro/l) good MPG makes you :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:33 pm

WIederling wrote:
About 10 years ago I did ~~55,000km/year. every year.
I never saw a reason to have a BIG car and lose lots of money in the process.
Roads are very good and you don't need a wobbling divan to not despair from driving here.
But with the fuel prices ( ~1.5Euro/l) good MPG makes you :-)


I drove 50-60k a year in a subcompact/compact car between 1992 - 2001. On much worse roads than yours. Now I feel it was irresponsible and I wouldn't do it again. What you drive is your choice. You have to decide if your priority is improved passive safety or money. I had no choice as I couldn't afford a better car then, but I choose safety now.
310, 319, 320, 321, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
LMP737
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:38 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

The dream you dream of was the province of relatively few Americans and died because it wasn’t sustainable in the face of competition.

GF


So what you are saying is that the idea of "Make America Great Again" is a pipe dream sold by charlatans.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:40 pm

Yeah, probably but no different than the other group of charlatans. Anyone who thinks government is the solution can be sold the Brooklyn Bridge
 
LMP737
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:17 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yeah, probably but no different than the other group of charlatans. Anyone who thinks government is the solution can be sold the Brooklyn Bridge


Seems like the people who voted for him believed just that.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Flighty
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:35 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
I was one of those of which you speak, a high school educated person. I was paid 30 bucks plus and hour and benefits. I earned in the six figures and that does not include benefits and I have been retired 21 years come Jan 1. Do you want to compare your net worth against mine? Do you have any idea what once was possible in the USA.. The American Dream, stolen from almost everyone except the Elite Class. As I said when one does not have a clue, one should be quiet, and I am being polite. :banghead::banghead:


But, but, but, it is not fair, but, but, but it was possible and very common in the USA. If you would at least try to research something, you would find out that for many many years, every generation in the US left the next generation better off. Not so anymore because of weak people who support those who screw us over. The Orange mane man being one. Mane, hmmn! applies to horses and that fits, he is a horse's ass and so are many of his followers it seems. Not all of course, I know a few and are friends with them and worked with them. I have never heard one of them who voted for him and who received the same pay and benefits as I ever complain about our standard of living. Funny that. By the way, I do not need to brag, I am trying to teach the blind who will not see. The American dream has been stolen.



http://www.providencejournal.com/news/2 ... own-shares


Yes, yes, we are the greedy ones according to you. try explaining this case of greed and who is accused of it. :banghead::banghead:
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.


He's been like that for a long time, sadly. Taken the pages from Alinsky's Rules for Radicals in his normal discourse.


Like what, a realist ? Do I call anyone dumb, stupid, filthy names ? Do I lie, exaggerate? Do I spread false information? Read my words above, I speak from experience, my experiences. What I say, I believe. Does it make it true? Not always, when I do make a mistake, I try to admit it. I try to follow the rules of the Forum about insults and language. I have had very few of my replies deleted in the last few years. Very few. I use the icons to speak for me many times to express my frustration without insult. I do not suffer fools lightly, and there are some on here for sure, maybe even me to some. We are after all supposed to be adults, are we not? I try never to be crude, just a realist. I try to defend the worker class, not the Elites and the greedy.


WarRI, I wish you would be more respectful of those who disagree with you on here. To call someone clueless and unintelligent for speaking his mind is a low blow for someone like you, who I used to respect.

If I have been short and abrupt lately or for a long period, read some of the words from persons to which I have been so. I try to respect good opinions, not mindless ones. As I have said many times, I know who is screwing me and my family and friends and country and I have made that very clear over the years and will continue to do so. I am not on here to make friends, just to express my opinion, which maybe too harsh for some as I see here.


I think this is a really good perspective. No, most "people in the media" are not aware of the fact that Americans were very highly paid - not only for the professions, but for trades as well. They regard middle class America as a "terrible time" or perhaps a "nationalist fiction." As somebody who knows a bit of history, I find it unbelievable! Can anyone really doubt the wealth middle class people had in Buffalo NY in 1950s? Or Detroit? Or Kansas City? Pittsburgh?

What about the fact that average people could just buy a house in Santa Barbara in the 1970s? Schoolteachers? Pretty mind-blowing, isn't it?

The wealth the middle class used to have, adjusted for living standards (house, cars, university tuition, retirement, medical), was truly gigantic. I do pretty well and the fact my grandfathers did about as well, on less education, in a much poorer country, is fascinating - it's mind boggling. How did they live in nice houses and buy new cars? And go on vacations? And then retire?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:13 am

What’s mind-blowing is lack of historical understanding here. At the end of WW II, we were essentially the only heavily industrialized nation. Europe was devastated, Soviet Union back at 1925, Japan annihilated, China would be pre-industrial until the end of the Cultural Revolution and Mr. Dung saying, “to be rich is glorious” in the Eighties. South Korea and Singapore were very poor. This made US workers completely on top and had monopoly power on wages at a time US enterprises had a similar monopoly on trade. US business ruled the world on my memory. Everyone laughed when the local car dealer started importing Toyotas in ‘65. Who would buy a Japanese car in the days of the fall new car season.

That lasted thru the Cold War years with erosion in our standing happening as Asia and Europe recovered. It would end decisively with the coming of Japanese car industry in the early ‘80s. Now, monopolistic US car industry, who were basically the Big Three faced real competition, competition that actually built better cars. Then import restrictions brought a disaster to US car industry as foreign manufacturers built US plants.

The last nail was the Fall of Wall. One billion plus were brought out of poverty as everyone in the world sought to live like Americans. Yes,the Fifties and Sixties were unique, Americans had a huge living standard compared to the past. You all need to stop dreaming about the economy of the past—it’s gone. It’s gone because you now have one billion people willing to work harder, for less and your fellow citizens want a cheaper product.

Yes, postal carriers owned homes in Santa Barbara and Lajolla which brought about Prop. 13. Those cities weren’t any more expensive than most places in the US.

GF
 
Flighty
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:32 am

Galaxy part of what you are saying the US couldn't trade back then, because our trading partners were busted by WWII. I think that's true. And our _country_ was a lot poorer in the 1950s than it is today. We are richer than ever today, except some debt issues.

What changed between 1950s and now is, yes, our partners can sell us cheaper manufactured goods. But we don't need to accept them. We have welcomed a lot of low cost laborers, maybe 50 million, but we didn't need to do so. If the majority in our country wants to have less trade and less human traffic, we can just vote on that and it can be done. The country would become poorer - but the living standards of the middle class, which is most of the people I know, might go up substantially.

This was thought to be a total non-issue, esoteric topic until Trump, Brexit. In other words, middle class people were assumed to be meaningless nobodies by the policymakers and academics. But politically, they remain meaningful. It was assumed that these policy changes over 30-40 years would never have a day of reckoning. But they did. The growth policy failed for a very big group of people. The evidence is in. It's no longer about predictions.

About 2 billion people climbed out of poverty, which is really nice. And a lot of billionaires got richer, which is nice. But the US/Europe middle class living standards clearly went down IMO. They were tricked.

I think maybe there is a way to manage trade and immigration that would result in clear benefits for the middle class majority (well... for all working people in the US). It seemed to work quite well before.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:57 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Nice rant WarRI1, but you completely missed who the real economic “enemy” of the “American Dream” is or was, depending on your view. It mostly emphatically is not “the rich”, the “elites” or “greeedy”. They may have a supporting role.

The enemy was in two actors-one foreign and one domestic. Their “greed” was wanting a better deal in life, like everyone. Better for themselves and their offspring. They got it thru globalization aided by nearly free container transport.

The foreign “enemy” was the poor bastars in a hovel in China, India, Costa Rica, Thailand and a dozen locations. He was willing to work for, by our standards, terrible wages that lifted him and his family out of poverty, to educate his kids, actually have a vacation.

The domestic “enemy” was your neighbor on Worcester who looked at getting a TV from China at half the cost of a domestic Magnavoz taking the savings to buy some new clothes. We all like a bargain or better quality for less.

The car industry and its unions thought voluntary import controls would solve their problems. It did just long enough to find a new “enemy”—Americans just like those foreign bastards. Every foreign car builder now builds down South.

Welcome to the real enemy—consumers who want a better deal and producers who meet that desire in search of better life for themselves. Not as satisfying as replaying the French Revolution or wallowing in envy but the facts never are. The dream you dream of was the province of relatively few Americans and died because it wasn’t sustainable in the face of competition.

GF


Who sent the jobs overseas???
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:11 am

WarRI1 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Nice rant WarRI1, but you completely missed who the real economic “enemy” of the “American Dream” is or was, depending on your view. It mostly emphatically is not “the rich”, the “elites” or “greeedy”. They may have a supporting role.

The enemy was in two actors-one foreign and one domestic. Their “greed” was wanting a better deal in life, like everyone. Better for themselves and their offspring. They got it thru globalization aided by nearly free container transport.

The foreign “enemy” was the poor bastars in a hovel in China, India, Costa Rica, Thailand and a dozen locations. He was willing to work for, by our standards, terrible wages that lifted him and his family out of poverty, to educate his kids, actually have a vacation.

The domestic “enemy” was your neighbor on Worcester who looked at getting a TV from China at half the cost of a domestic Magnavoz taking the savings to buy some new clothes. We all like a bargain or better quality for less.

The car industry and its unions thought voluntary import controls would solve their problems. It did just long enough to find a new “enemy”—Americans just like those foreign bastards. Every foreign car builder now builds down South.

Welcome to the real enemy—consumers who want a better deal and producers who meet that desire in search of better life for themselves. Not as satisfying as replaying the French Revolution or wallowing in envy but the facts never are. The dream you dream of was the province of relatively few Americans and died because it wasn’t sustainable in the face of competition.

GF


Who sent the jobs overseas???


The consumers who demanded cheaper, better quality and greater variety goods. The company managements who were driven to the wall by competition. Shoes and furniture were big industries in New England, they went south to the Carolinas, Georgia, then overseas. You can’t fight the markets.

GF
 
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WarRI1
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:16 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Nice rant WarRI1, but you completely missed who the real economic “enemy” of the “American Dream” is or was, depending on your view. It mostly emphatically is not “the rich”, the “elites” or “greeedy”. They may have a supporting role.

The enemy was in two actors-one foreign and one domestic. Their “greed” was wanting a better deal in life, like everyone. Better for themselves and their offspring. They got it thru globalization aided by nearly free container transport.

The foreign “enemy” was the poor bastars in a hovel in China, India, Costa Rica, Thailand and a dozen locations. He was willing to work for, by our standards, terrible wages that lifted him and his family out of poverty, to educate his kids, actually have a vacation.

The domestic “enemy” was your neighbor on Worcester who looked at getting a TV from China at half the cost of a domestic Magnavoz taking the savings to buy some new clothes. We all like a bargain or better quality for less.

The car industry and its unions thought voluntary import controls would solve their problems. It did just long enough to find a new “enemy”—Americans just like those foreign bastards. Every foreign car builder now builds down South.

Welcome to the real enemy—consumers who want a better deal and producers who meet that desire in search of better life for themselves. Not as satisfying as replaying the French Revolution or wallowing in envy but the facts never are. The dream you dream of was the province of relatively few Americans and died because it wasn’t sustainable in the face of competition.

GF


Who sent the jobs overseas???


The consumers who demanded cheaper, better quality and greater variety goods. The company managements who were driven to the wall by competition. Shoes and furniture were big industries in New England, they went south to the Carolinas, Georgia, then overseas. You can’t fight the markets.

GF


More BS, the consumer is also the worker, did the workers send the jobs overseas ???
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
DGVT
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:42 am

WarRI1 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:

Who sent the jobs overseas???


The consumers who demanded cheaper, better quality and greater variety goods. The company managements who were driven to the wall by competition. Shoes and furniture were big industries in New England, they went south to the Carolinas, Georgia, then overseas. You can’t fight the markets.

GF


More BS, the consumer is also the worker, did the workers send the jobs overseas ???


I don't quite see the BS.
Just because a consumer is a worker doesn't mean that he won't prefer cheaper foreign goods over expensive domestic goods. Maybe the unionised GM worker will refuse to buy japcrap, but the japcrap salesman (or worker) probably won't care.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:42 am

Did the workers or the consumers have any say? Yes, thru their market decisions. When the “worker” was given the choice between inexpensive goods from overseas versus more expensive domestic ones, what did the “consumer” decide? The cheaper one EVERYTIME. Did you read the auto industry history? That’s it in one industry- better quality products at better prices always win.

GF
 
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WarRI1
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:49 am

DGVT wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

The consumers who demanded cheaper, better quality and greater variety goods. The company managements who were driven to the wall by competition. Shoes and furniture were big industries in New England, they went south to the Carolinas, Georgia, then overseas. You can’t fight the markets.

GF


More BS, the consumer is also the worker, did the workers send the jobs overseas ???


I don't quite see the BS.
Just because a consumer is a worker doesn't mean that he won't prefer cheaper foreign goods over expensive domestic goods. Maybe the unionised GM worker will refuse to buy japcrap, but the japcrap salesman (or worker) probably won't care.




It does not speak well of the intelligence of workers who do that does it. Explain that mentality, kind of like consumer suicide to me. Ten dollar sweater then, now a 50 dollar sweater with lower wages, or no wages. Consumer Heaven for not so bright people I guess. I always called it the Walmart Economy.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:50 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Did the workers or the consumers have any say? Yes, thru their market decisions. When the “worker” was given the choice between inexpensive goods from overseas versus more expensive domestic ones, what did the “consumer” decide? The cheaper one EVERYTIME. Did you read the auto industry history? That’s it in one industry- better quality products at better prices always win.

GF


See my words above, I think I made myself perfectly clear. The corporations just love that mentality. You might want to read the thread about the stock market I wrote and how well we are doing by making China and everyone else wealthy except US workers.. Enrich an enemy, what an intelligent policy that is. Glad you support it.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:03 am

Shorter version: Americans are stupid for spending frugally. Australia tried to block out imported cars, they opened up and now no longer have a car industry, but better quality cars and choice. Argentina tried blocking imports, they went from the 7th largest world economy to about 30th.

I support free trade, free markets and free minds.

If the Chinese and others are getting so wealthy, would you trade places with them? You should be a Trump fan with your protectionist zeal.


Gf
 
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WarRI1
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:18 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Shorter version: Americans are stupid for spending frugally. Australia tried to block out imported cars, they opened up and now no longer have a car industry, but better quality cars and choice. Argentina tried blocking imports, they went from the 7th largest world economy to about 30th.

I support free trade, free markets and free minds.

If the Chinese and others are getting so wealthy, would you trade places with them? You should be a Trump fan with your protectionist zeal.


Gf



You are being obtuse, dancing around the subject. I cannot stand the Orange man. Enrich an enemy, a sworn enemy. I guess you should have been alive during the Korean War and then maybe you would be wiser about China and how they love us for making them richer while destroying our middle class wealth that made us unique among nations. :banghead: :banghead:
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:29 am

Your problem is looking for scapegoat instead trying trying understand the economic problem. The only way your idea works is in a mercantile, colonial system where the world buys from us, we produce everything the world, including us, need. For 40 years the Chinese produced little for export. Do you really want Americans sewing clothes, cobbling shoes when they can design computers and airliners? Was life on an assembly line or in a dangerous steel mill really what you want?

You think everything wrong is Trump’s fault—care to explain how manufacturing has been a declining portion of the economy for thirty years? Why Americans can invent and design the most impactful device in modern history, the handheld computer, but not build them here? The world has changed, embrace it and stoppping dreaming of a past gone. Who pissed in your front lawn?

GF
 
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WarRI1
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:44 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Your problem is looking for scapegoat instead trying trying understand the economic problem. The only way your idea works is in a mercantile, colonial system where the world buys from us, we produce everything the world, including us, need. For 40 years the Chinese produced little for export. Do you really want Americans sewing clothes, cobbling shoes when they can design computers and airliners? Was life on an assembly line or in a dangerous steel mill really what you want?

You think everything wrong is Trump’s fault—care to explain how manufacturing has been a declining portion of the economy for thirty years? Why Americans can invent and design the most impactful device in modern history, the handheld computer, but not build them here? Who pissed in your front lawn?

GF



We design, they build, how good is that for the average American? You know the average guy? A fruitless policy as we can see, yet you continue to ignore the in your face statistics of lower wages, lower benefits, and a lower standard of living for the average American, not the Elite of course, not the already wealthy, not the politicians. The deficit grows, taxes go up, the wages stagnate, the jobs are mostly menial these days. Home Depot, Walmart etc. what a wonderful system. I suggest you ask a few about how good it is for them who work these dead end jobs while the factory jobs, the bread and butter jobs stay over there and every where, but here. I must live in an different world than you, the real world is where I reside.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:03 am

https://www.aol.com/article/finance/201 ... /23610010/


What a wonderful trading partner we have with China. I thought I would point this out to the defenders of free trade, free markets and the enrichment of China who seems not to care about the US and it's people.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:17 am

He’s been arrested at US request. You mention Walmart—their net profit margin is in the 3.5% area.

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/WMT/walmart/net-profit-margin

As you keep ignoring, we can’t keep our head in the sand on trade. That’s the real world we live in, one dominated by 160+ countries, not a closed economy within the US borders.

GF
 
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WarRI1
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:24 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
He’s been arrested at US request. You mention Walmart—their net profit margin is in the 3.5% area.

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/WMT/walmart/net-profit-margin

As you keep ignoring, we can’t keep our head in the sand on trade. That’s the real world we live in, one dominated by 160+ countries, not a closed economy within the US borders.

GF


So we cannot manufacture here to keep our people working? Give me a break.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Flighty
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:51 am

We can’t manufacture everything here and make our country into a 1950s theme park. But we also should not give up every crown jewel in exchange for nothing at all. Maybe, if making iPhones entertains some people here, that is what we should do. Maybe if carpenters would make $140,000 if there is a work permit crackdown, we should do that. Maybe if software talent would make $400,000 instead of $150,000 with fewer visas we should do that. I think middle class people enjoy making really really good paychecks. Just a theory that I have. The US remains the center of global corporate and financial activity. Quite a lot of wealth in the system.
 
WIederling
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:31 am

Flighty wrote:
Galaxy part of what you are saying the US couldn't trade back then, because our trading partners were busted by WWII. I think that's true. And our _country_ was a lot poorer in the 1950s than it is today. We are richer than ever today, except some debt issues.


That is not what he wrote.
The US could trade to no end because it had the production means and
enable those without the means overseas to buy .. by way of providing credit via the Marshall plan initially.

The success was not due to outstanding technological superiority.
( most of that was "borrowed" from two wars anyway.)

The moment any of the damaged economies came back on their feet
that advantage lost its foundation.
But in the meantime the US had established that world trade happened in US$.
Like a drug dealer they now started to prosper from trafficking ( here : money :-)

Money trafficking doesn't need industrial production. -> Downfall of the Middle Class.
( aided by ideological aberrations "Trickle Down, Low taxes create prosperity, .." )
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:22 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The bad taste GM left in consumer’s mouths hasn’t helped. Toyota, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai all build sedansand successfully, too. GM and Ford exist on pickups.


Directed consumer interest and the product range protected by the "Chicken Tax".
Small trucks are essentially 1930 tech products.

Interesting that a foreign manufacturer (BMW) is the biggest US auto exporter :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:16 pm

WIederling wrote:
Small trucks are essentially 1930 tech products.


Would you care to explain that? Until then I'm calling bullshit.

WIederling wrote:
Interesting that a foreign manufacturer (BMW) is the biggest US auto exporter :-)


At first glance yes, but then the USA is the country where the SUV craziness started, so it makes sense to locate the SUV production there. Also, US car manufacturers were producing cars for foreign markets locally for ages. Ford had a whole bunch of assembly plants in Europe, Latin America, Australia and Asia by the end of the twenties. And I don't have to mention Adam Opel AG, do I?
310, 319, 320, 321, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
WIederling
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:28 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Small trucks are essentially 1930 tech products.


Would you care to explain that? Until then I'm calling bullshit.

WIederling wrote:
Interesting that a foreign manufacturer (BMW) is the biggest US auto exporter :-)


At first glance yes, but then the USA is the country where the SUV craziness started, so it makes sense to locate the SUV production there. Also, US car manufacturers were producing cars for foreign markets locally for ages. Ford had a whole bunch of assembly plants in Europe, Latin America, Australia and Asia by the end of the twenties. And I don't have to mention Adam Opel AG, do I?


"calling bullshit."? echoes in an empty room.

But design flow was from Europe or Korea to the US. ( Opel's success in Germany was directly dependent on low GM intervention. Same for Vauxhall. Later years identical product lineup. )

Few US designed vehicles found buyers abroad. ( beyond those roadcruiser jalopies so popular in Cuba :-)

One nice looking product was the PT cruiser.
Designed in the US ( certified as a small truck to avoid issues with driver <> windshield clearance afaik )
, for Europe partly manufactured in Austria
... is the car with the lowest reliability record ( Germany, collected by ADAC ). riddle me that.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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trpmb6
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:31 pm

WIederling wrote:
One nice looking product was the PT cruiser.


I hope that was said tongue in cheek.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:05 pm

WIederling wrote:
"calling bullshit."? echoes in an empty room.


You still didn't explain what is from the thirties on small trucks. So my call stands. And just between us, what was that very important design feature that came from Europe and South Korea to North America?
310, 319, 320, 321, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
WIederling
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:32 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
One nice looking product was the PT cruiser.


I hope that was said tongue in cheek.

Retro designs are popular today ( only in Europe?).

... , New Beetle, PT Cruiser, Mini, Fiat 500, ...
IMU there is even a new Volvo around that copies the looks of the
"Schneewitchensarg" Volvo P 1800 ES ?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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trpmb6
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:40 pm

WIederling wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
One nice looking product was the PT cruiser.


I hope that was said tongue in cheek.

Retro designs are popular today ( only in Europe?).

... , New Beetle, PT Cruiser, Mini, Fiat 500, ...
IMU there is even a new Volvo around that copies the looks of the
"Schneewitchensarg" Volvo P 1800 ES ?


I would probably characterize it as a fad for the US. PT Cruiser's are virtually non-existent anymore. Chevy tried to put out a similar body style, but I believe it wasn't much of a success.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:28 pm

Flighty wrote:
We can’t manufacture everything here and make our country into a 1950s theme park. But we also should not give up every crown jewel in exchange for nothing at all. Maybe, if making iPhones entertains some people here, that is what we should do. Maybe if carpenters would make $140,000 if there is a work permit crackdown, we should do that. Maybe if software talent would make $400,000 instead of $150,000 with fewer visas we should do that. I think middle class people enjoy making really really good paychecks. Just a theory that I have. The US remains the center of global corporate and financial activity. Quite a lot of wealth in the system.


With those compensation policies, I would interested in the marketing portion of your business plan on how you will sell those items with that cost structure. Carpenters are still pretty a domestic industry. A couple of good friends are carpenters, I doubt they can charge those rates and stay in business.
 
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Aesma
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:05 pm

The US is a big country with all kinds of natural resources, it could probably make everything inhouse. That would mean a significant decrease in the standard of living, though, aka, less buying useless stuff.

Probably very good for the global environment.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams

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