tommy1808
Posts: 9729
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:02 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
but it was a bailout supported pre-packaged bankruptcy and Obama/Dems didn't allow many union cuts. .


Why would they? They don´t mandate pay hikes in good times either...... that US companies can get out of past commitments towards the labor force at all is the real scandal. Get their informed consent or go chapter 7. Governments can give a bailout, they have no place in employee related money flows. Unless you are complaining that the democrats are not socialist enough....

best regards
Thomas


If this was a true Chapter 11, not a sub-section 363 sale, the union would have got much less.


If you can´t make an agreement with your workforce, and the government has to stay out of it, there shouldn´t be Chapter 11 available to the company, only Chapter 7.

Chapter 11 in its totality is nothing but government backed expropriation of other peoples stuff and money.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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trpmb6
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:25 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Why would they? They don´t mandate pay hikes in good times either...... that US companies can get out of past commitments towards the labor force at all is the real scandal. Get their informed consent or go chapter 7. Governments can give a bailout, they have no place in employee related money flows. Unless you are complaining that the democrats are not socialist enough....

best regards
Thomas


If this was a true Chapter 11, not a sub-section 363 sale, the union would have got much less.


If you can´t make an agreement with your workforce, and the government has to stay out of it, there shouldn´t be Chapter 11 available to the company, only Chapter 7.

Chapter 11 in its totality is nothing but government backed expropriation of other peoples stuff and money.

best regards
Thomas


Not sure why my post was deleted or if the server just hiccuped on it.

The underlying problem remains as low demand for the products being produced at these plants. While in totality, labor costs and tariffs (among hundreds of other factors) do affect the profitability of these plants, in the end you still have to be able to sell it. They couldn't fill 3 shifts, probably not even 2 shifts, worth of product, so it's not going to make money. Can't have all that tooling sitting idle.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:44 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
...
If you can´t make an agreement with your workforce, and the government has to stay out of it, there shouldn´t be Chapter 11 available to the company, only Chapter 7.

Chapter 11 in its totality is nothing but government backed expropriation of other peoples stuff and money.

best regards
Thomas


Not clear what you are trying to say, but

If GM bankruptcy was financed by the private sector, like other airline bankruptcies, GM would have dumped many more union employees and lot more pension obligations on PBGC's lap like airlines.

Because a government-appointed Czar represented management, unions got everything they wanted.

In an ideal 363 asset sale, ie., OldGM NewGM setup, useless assets, and pension liabilities should have gone to OldGM, but they were attached to NewGM along with lot more union employees than expected.

Hence second round of reorganization, this time without a government Czar.
 
NIKV69
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:48 pm

seb146 wrote:
Things like paying into retirement funds and group health insurance. Just do what everyone else does and use the emergency room as their primary care (declaring bankruptcy after) and work until they die. How dare people go in as a group for benefits! /sarcasm


You never heard of Medicare? The company you work for is going to pay your healthcare when you retire?
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
slider
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Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:48 pm

You know, beyond the obvious consternation about GM taking bailout funding and getting a sweetheart tax break, this just proves to me one thing: GM is still a dinosaur. A monolith with all the nimbleness of a glacier.

How GM has failed to have vision for seeing (much less forecasting) changing consumer trends, buying habits, market sizes, and being lean, mean, and nimble, is beyond me.

One other thing that isn't getting NEARLY enough play in the US market, and it's not solely a GM thing, is that the auto loan market is now also overheated. Big time. Lenders are doing ridiculous subprime lending as a matter of practice and doing so for terms like 72 months long!!! It's stupid. People are essentially getting underwater and backwards on their car note the moment they sign it unless they pay it off aggressively early. This bubble will burst too. Didn't mean to sidetrack the discussion, but given how many new cars you generally see on the road everywhere, I wonder if the demand forecast across the board has shrunk.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 1987
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:08 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
LMP737 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

Not his fault. He isn't running the company. GM has always been horribly run. Caving too much to the thug union. Paying too much money to retirees. Not making vehicles people want. Nobody wants sedans anymore it's vehicles like the Murano and Edge.



Caving into union thugs? That tired old excuse. Not making vehicles people want has more to do with GM's problems than that.


probably a good time to suggest looking up what Volkswagen workers make in Germany. ...

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/ ... rkers-earn

A GM Worker has to work almost 1.5 days per week (!) more to make what his colleagues at Volkswagen in Germany make.

best regards
Thomas


That’s one reason VW, as so many other manufacturers, are moving assembly plants outside Germany. There’s also some interesting productivity comparisons and current wages to past wages. Germany has become very productive, making strong wages affordable.

Yes, Lyndon Johnson’s “Chicken tax”, another bad policy.

GF
 
seb146
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:40 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Things like paying into retirement funds and group health insurance. Just do what everyone else does and use the emergency room as their primary care (declaring bankruptcy after) and work until they die. How dare people go in as a group for benefits! /sarcasm


You never heard of Medicare? The company you work for is going to pay your healthcare when you retire?


What about now? What about people who are currently working who have to spend more than they make just for crap health care? People who start crowdfunding for their health care because their own health care insurance refuses to pay for health care?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
LMP737
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Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:09 pm

NIKV69 wrote:

What are you talking about? Doesn't unit cost mean anything? Well that cost to make a vehicle includes the perks you are paying to people that don't even work for you anymore. Hurts especially when Nissan in TN pays a lot less to make a vehicle more people are buying. Someone need to have the courage to tell the AFL-CIO to go fly a kite.


I don't what's so hard to understand. You make it sound like GM is the only company that has a union on property. Other companies have unions on property with similar contracts and they're doing okay. Is this a race to the bottom pay wise? How much do you make and what are your retirement benefits? Whatever it is I'm sure it's too much and your company would be better off cutting or even dumping them.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
LMP737
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:20 pm

NIKV69 wrote:

You never heard of Medicare? The company you work for is going to pay your healthcare when you retire?


Is yours? One could consider Medicare as a form of socialism. Remember that the next time you complain about it.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Ken777
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:14 am

NIKV69 wrote:
LMP737 wrote:

Caving into union thugs? That tired old excuse. Not making vehicles people want has more to do with GM's problems than that.


What are you talking about? Doesn't unit cost mean anything? Well that cost to make a vehicle includes the perks you are paying to people that don't even work for you anymore. Hurts especially when Nissan in TN pays a lot less to make a vehicle more people are buying. Someone need to have the courage to tell the AFL-CIO to go fly a kite.


I'm sure you would like to have everyone working on the assembly floor getting minimum wage. Our minimum wage is below the poverty line and is a far bigger cancer on our economy than unions.

Maybe you need to remember that Swamp Mouth gave GM and other companies a huge tax break so they could expand and grow. The Executive Level rapidly spent the money on stock buybacks so they could get "tax effective" bonuses.

Personally I believe that the Executive Offices is totally at fault. They should have seen the shift to SUV's and shifted more production lines to all sizes of SUV's. I have a '16 Encore and get great milage. The only issue with the car is the small storage area in the rear. It's assembled in Korea and overall is a pretty good car.

US car companies can deliver good cars, but they are looking any too high a profit margin to be competitive with a lot of imports. he Executive Office have been overcome with greed and that has caused more problems than Unions.

Remember Henry Ford and his approach to wages? He said he need to pay a decent rate so his employees could afford to buy one of his cars.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 2693
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:09 am

Let me see if I have this straight...

GM makes a business decision, that's capitalism as work isn't it ?
Trump demands that US plants stay open to provide jobs.....That Socialism isn't it ?

I thought our Trump fan base hates Socialism ????
 
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WarRI1
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:17 am

Berevoff wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
Berevoff wrote:

yeah demanding wages out of line with the product causes lots of these factories to go overseas where its cheaper. demanding big pay doesn't matter in a global economy when someone in china or mexico will do it for half the price

these factories would still be open if unions didnt money grab


If one does not have a credible reply, one should keep ones mouth shut. That is a lesson in life that seems to be forgotten. Of course one might if one thought about it for a moment, wonder just who made and still makes the money grabs that have decimated the American way of life. :banghead: :banghead:


paying a high school educated person 30 bucks an hour to step on pedals on an assembly line is the quickest way to drive manufacturing over to china and mexico

maybe we need to lower our standards of living to a reasonable level. having the newest house and car and tv isn't the way to go. people need to be more humble and frugal



I was one of those of which you speak, a high school educated person. I was paid 30 bucks plus and hour and benefits. I earned in the six figures and that does not include benefits and I have been retired 21 years come Jan 1. Do you want to compare your net worth against mine? Do you have any idea what once was possible in the USA.. The American Dream, stolen from almost everyone except the Elite Class. As I said when one does not have a clue, one should be quiet, and I am being polite. :banghead: :banghead:
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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Berevoff
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:22 am

WarRI1 wrote:
Berevoff wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:

If one does not have a credible reply, one should keep ones mouth shut. That is a lesson in life that seems to be forgotten. Of course one might if one thought about it for a moment, wonder just who made and still makes the money grabs that have decimated the American way of life. :banghead: :banghead:


paying a high school educated person 30 bucks an hour to step on pedals on an assembly line is the quickest way to drive manufacturing over to china and mexico

maybe we need to lower our standards of living to a reasonable level. having the newest house and car and tv isn't the way to go. people need to be more humble and frugal



I was one of those of which you speak, a high school educated person. I was paid 30 bucks plus and hour and benefits. I earned in the six figures and that does not include benefits and I have been retired 21 years come Jan 1. Do you want to compare your net worth against mine? Do you have any idea what once was possible in the USA.. The American Dream, stolen from almost everyone except the Elite Class. As I said when one does not have a clue, one should be quiet, and I am being polite. :banghead: :banghead:


You're the reason they go bankrupt over and over and people lose jobs over and over. Paying massive pensions to people who retire at 50. Its crazy but "you got yours" so who cares? You're bragging on the internet about your net worth after literally doing nothing for the last 20 years but playing the system.

What was possible in the USA only existed for a short time under unrealistic circumstances. We live in the real world. How would you know what its like to be in the workforce? You've not had a job in literally a generation of workers.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:34 am

Berevoff wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
Berevoff wrote:

paying a high school educated person 30 bucks an hour to step on pedals on an assembly line is the quickest way to drive manufacturing over to china and mexico

maybe we need to lower our standards of living to a reasonable level. having the newest house and car and tv isn't the way to go. people need to be more humble and frugal



I was one of those of which you speak, a high school educated person. I was paid 30 bucks plus and hour and benefits. I earned in the six figures and that does not include benefits and I have been retired 21 years come Jan 1. Do you want to compare your net worth against mine? Do you have any idea what once was possible in the USA.. The American Dream, stolen from almost everyone except the Elite Class. As I said when one does not have a clue, one should be quiet, and I am being polite. :banghead: :banghead:


You're the reason they go bankrupt over and over and people lose jobs over and over. Paying massive pensions to people who retire at 50. Its crazy but "you got yours" so who cares? You're bragging on the internet about your net worth after literally doing nothing for the last 20 years but playing the system.

What was possible in the USA only existed for a short time under unrealistic circumstances. We live in the real world. How would you know what its like to be in the workforce? You've not had a job in literally a generation of workers.




But, but, but, it is not fair, but, but, but it was possible and very common in the USA. If you would at least try to research something, you would find out that for many many years, every generation in the US left the next generation better off. Not so anymore because of weak people who support those who screw us over. The Orange mane man being one. Mane, hmmn! applies to horses and that fits, he is a horse's ass and so are many of his followers it seems. Not all of course, I know a few and are friends with them and worked with them. I have never heard one of them who voted for him and who received the same pay and benefits as I ever complain about our standard of living. Funny that. By the way, I do not need to brag, I am trying to teach the blind who will not see. The American dream has been stolen.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:13 am

Berevoff wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
Berevoff wrote:

paying a high school educated person 30 bucks an hour to step on pedals on an assembly line is the quickest way to drive manufacturing over to china and mexico

maybe we need to lower our standards of living to a reasonable level. having the newest house and car and tv isn't the way to go. people need to be more humble and frugal



I was one of those of which you speak, a high school educated person. I was paid 30 bucks plus and hour and benefits. I earned in the six figures and that does not include benefits and I have been retired 21 years come Jan 1. Do you want to compare your net worth against mine? Do you have any idea what once was possible in the USA.. The American Dream, stolen from almost everyone except the Elite Class. As I said when one does not have a clue, one should be quiet, and I am being polite. :banghead: :banghead:


You're the reason they go bankrupt over and over and people lose jobs over and over. Paying massive pensions to people who retire at 50. Its crazy but "you got yours" so who cares? You're bragging on the internet about your net worth after literally doing nothing for the last 20 years but playing the system.

What was possible in the USA only existed for a short time under unrealistic circumstances. We live in the real world. How would you know what its like to be in the workforce? You've not had a job in literally a generation of workers.





http://www.providencejournal.com/news/2 ... own-shares


Yes, yes, we are the greedy ones according to you. try explaining this case of greed and who is accused of it. :banghead: :banghead:
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
StarAC17
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:28 am

luckyone wrote:
A thought occurred to me, and it is this: GM and Ford might be a victim of their own (quite successful) marketing of their large SUVs and trucks. Plenty of Civics, Corollas (though god knows why because the car is as exciting as a dial tone), Elantras, etc etc are sold. But Ford and chevy can’t keep the Focus and Cruze moving. I wonder if, in part, this is due to how they treat customers interested in those models (as mentioned above) because I read somewhere that Ford makes an average profit of about $13,000 per F-150 that it sells, and conversely, those customers’ comfort level and how they perceive being on the lot next to people. In our image-conscious society, what we arrive with, and drive off the lot may very well affect our choice of where we go to purchase it. There may also be just enough people turned off by the tranches of pristinely clean, never hauled a load or towed a trailer F-series and Silverados that the clientele may be off-putting to them, and the Honda or Hyundai dealership seems less pretentious. Those manufacturers also market themselves as value-oriented, so it may be a challenge for Ford and GM to make that cohesive when they’re selling $40,000+ pickup trucks next to $20,000 economy cars. The Asian manufactures don’t have the same problem.


Toyota and Honda market all their cars very aggressively as does Hyundai and Kia from what I see. Those companies sponsor a lot of sporting events and buy a lot of ads for the models that sell the best for them. I do not see the US big 3 doing that for many of their passenger cars as you have said and they push their trucks and SUV's

Also all of the companies are known pretty well for quality and reliability and the results back that up. In Canada the Civic has won car of the year for something like 20 consecutive years, with the Corolla not far behind and you often see them models that are pushing 20 years old on the road still and with regular maintenance Japanese cars will last a very long time. GM cars are better than they were but still have a pretty bad rap.

I can understand that you might think of the Corolla as boring which I get but I assume most people posting in this thread actually like cars and the everyday person wants something reliable to get the to work and back.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
NIKV69
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Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:42 am

seb146 wrote:
What about now? What about people who are currently working who have to spend more than they make just for crap health care? People who start crowdfunding for their health care because their own health care insurance refuses to pay for health care?


What on earth are you talking about? How does this have to do with retirees? I didn't say anything about people still currently working. :banghead:

Berevoff wrote:
[q


You're the reason they go bankrupt over and over and people lose jobs over and over. Paying massive pensions to people who retire at 50. Its crazy but "you got yours" so who cares? You're bragging on the internet about your net worth after literally doing nothing for the last 20 years but playing the system.


You left out an important fact. The health of the company. UPS has people who retire at younger ages but it's not an issue because the company is making money hand over fist and has no competition and never will so they can afford to take care of employees both current and retired. GM is the opposite. Making no money and getting beat by competitors.
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
seb146
Posts: 18705
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:56 am

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
What about now? What about people who are currently working who have to spend more than they make just for crap health care? People who start crowdfunding for their health care because their own health care insurance refuses to pay for health care?


What on earth are you talking about? How does this have to do with retirees? I didn't say anything about people still currently working. :banghead:


You lumped in "union thugs" with retirees. You want people to have private insurance but you don't want private companies to help pay for private insurance and give people wages they can afford private insurance. You don't want Medicare, either, because it is big gub'mint.

Make up your mind.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9729
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:16 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
LMP737 wrote:

Caving into union thugs? That tired old excuse. Not making vehicles people want has more to do with GM's problems than that.


probably a good time to suggest looking up what Volkswagen workers make in Germany. ...

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/ ... rkers-earn

A GM Worker has to work almost 1.5 days per week (!) more to make what his colleagues at Volkswagen in Germany make.

best regards
Thomas


That’s one reason VW, as so many other manufacturers, are moving assembly plants outside Germany.


Volkswagen is "moving plants outside of Germany" since 1949, when they opened the first foreign plant in Belgium and has always moved production where it was cheap or where the demand was.

There’s also some interesting productivity comparisons and current wages to past wages. Germany has become very productive, making strong wages affordable.


The things you can do with the Union being part of the board of directors and not seeing them as enemey.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
bennett123
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Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:17 am

Talking about Germany and Management/Union relations.

I recall my father talking about this in the 1970's.

The firm got a big rush order, and wanted the workers to do overtime, (paid).

The issue was that Overtime was unpopular, (work/life balance).

The workers managed to produce a short term production surge, meaning overtime was not required.

Once the surge was over, the production rate went back to normal.

The key being that you can run very fast for a short distance, but could not do so for the long term.

Not sure that either side would accept that in the US or UK.
 
apodino
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:08 pm

I have a Chevy Volt and I love it. This car is the type of car that I believe is the future. For some reason, Americans love their gas guzzling, climate change causing, SUVs so much that that when products like this that will help come out to the market, people don't buy them. I don't get it personally.

That being said, this development was years in the making, and goes all the way back to the Bush administration with the bailouts. Then Obama tried to help out because he thought taxpayer money saving jobs was the way to go. Now it appears the taxpayers are out the money, the jobs Obama thought he was saving are gone, and Trump is powerless to do anything about it short of ending the tariff war. This is exactly what happens when politicians try to solve problems they have no business solving. This gives CEOs no incentive at all to run a good business because the taxpayers will just bail them out anyways, and no matter how good or bad a job they do, they will always get millions in bonuses and stock options. And in any event, the little guy gets screwed.

As for Unions here are my thoughts as a union member. At one time unions were great for the workers as they fought good battles to earn Americans many of the benefits they now enjoy. At some point in recent years, they have become very corrupt and not only do they not represent their members well, they rig the system so the members cant do anything about it. Take the recent Mechanic negotiations at UPS for example. The IBT reached an agreement with UPS on a new contract for their mechanics. The mechanics thought the deal was a bad one for them and the membership rejected it by vote. James Hoffa then rigged the system and the rules to ensure the contract was implemented despite the mechanics rejecting it. How is it serving the members by giving membership something they reject? Additionally, at American, the guy negotiating the contract for the IAM/TWU association currently sits on the BOD of United Airlines? How is that not a conflict of interest. Also, the membership is very upset at their union and wants a change, but the system is rigged so that they cant get the change. Its tactics like these that make Americans distrustful of Union leadership as well.

WarRI, I wish you would be more respectful of those who disagree with you on here. To call someone clueless and unintelligent for speaking his mind is a low blow for someone like you, who I used to respect.
 
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Berevoff
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:17 am

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
What about now? What about people who are currently working who have to spend more than they make just for crap health care? People who start crowdfunding for their health care because their own health care insurance refuses to pay for health care?


What on earth are you talking about? How does this have to do with retirees? I didn't say anything about people still currently working. :banghead:

Berevoff wrote:
[q


You're the reason they go bankrupt over and over and people lose jobs over and over. Paying massive pensions to people who retire at 50. Its crazy but "you got yours" so who cares? You're bragging on the internet about your net worth after literally doing nothing for the last 20 years but playing the system.


You left out an important fact. The health of the company. UPS has people who retire at younger ages but it's not an issue because the company is making money hand over fist and has no competition and never will so they can afford to take care of employees both current and retired. GM is the opposite. Making no money and getting beat by competitors.


Then the company needs to die and be split up or sold off to companies that can actually innovate. Detroit is dead. Its been dead for 40 years and it will be continue to be dead. Car companies are too old school to survive today.
 
bennett123
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:52 am

Adopino

Did you say James Hoffa.

Given that he disappeared in 1975, exactly what year are you talking about?.
 
meecrob
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:15 pm

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:00 am

I find a very strong bias of current and ex union employees to act superior to their contemporaries when things are good, but cry the blues when things go bad. Can't they just be happy they made $30/hr for 30 years doing something unskilled with only high school education...plus they have a pension! Try getting a pension in the real world.
 
LMP737
Posts: 5740
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:40 am

meecrob wrote:
I find a very strong bias of current and ex union employees to act superior to their contemporaries when things are good, but cry the blues when things go bad. Can't they just be happy they made $30/hr for 30 years doing something unskilled with only high school education...plus they have a pension! Try getting a pension in the real world.


So how much do you make and what's your pension like?
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
LMP737
Posts: 5740
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:43 am

NIKV69 wrote:

You left out an important fact. The health of the company. UPS has people who retire at younger ages but it's not an issue because the company is making money hand over fist and has no competition and never will .


Yes they do have competition and to say they never will is rather naive.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
DGVT
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 12:27 am

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:22 am

The best option would be to use the good old communist tactic of protecting the US market by taking out the sledgehammers and destroying all those foreign cars. Then we pressure foreign governments to enact voluntary export restraints on car exports to the US like in good old 1980s.
 
slider
Posts: 7111
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:56 pm

apodino wrote:
I have a Chevy Volt and I love it. This car is the type of car that I believe is the future. For some reason, Americans love their gas guzzling, climate change causing, SUVs so much that that when products like this that will help come out to the market, people don't buy them. I don't get it personally.

That being said, this development was years in the making, and goes all the way back to the Bush administration with the bailouts. Then Obama tried to help out because he thought taxpayer money saving jobs was the way to go. Now it appears the taxpayers are out the money, the jobs Obama thought he was saving are gone, and Trump is powerless to do anything about it short of ending the tariff war. This is exactly what happens when politicians try to solve problems they have no business solving. This gives CEOs no incentive at all to run a good business because the taxpayers will just bail them out anyways, and no matter how good or bad a job they do, they will always get millions in bonuses and stock options. And in any event, the little guy gets screwed.

As for Unions here are my thoughts as a union member. At one time unions were great for the workers as they fought good battles to earn Americans many of the benefits they now enjoy. At some point in recent years, they have become very corrupt and not only do they not represent their members well, they rig the system so the members cant do anything about it. Take the recent Mechanic negotiations at UPS for example. The IBT reached an agreement with UPS on a new contract for their mechanics. The mechanics thought the deal was a bad one for them and the membership rejected it by vote. James Hoffa then rigged the system and the rules to ensure the contract was implemented despite the mechanics rejecting it. How is it serving the members by giving membership something they reject? Additionally, at American, the guy negotiating the contract for the IAM/TWU association currently sits on the BOD of United Airlines? How is that not a conflict of interest. Also, the membership is very upset at their union and wants a change, but the system is rigged so that they cant get the change. Its tactics like these that make Americans distrustful of Union leadership as well.

WarRI, I wish you would be more respectful of those who disagree with you on here. To call someone clueless and unintelligent for speaking his mind is a low blow for someone like you, who I used to respect.


He's been like that for a long time, sadly. Taken the pages from Alinsky's Rules for Radicals in his normal discourse.
 
2122M
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:06 pm

LMP737 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

You left out an important fact. The health of the company. UPS has people who retire at younger ages but it's not an issue because the company is making money hand over fist and has no competition and never will .


Yes they do have competition and to say they never will is rather naive.


Thank you for saying that. I was trying to figure out under what rock NIKV lives that he or she has never heard of FedEx, DHL, TNT or even the Postal Services of the world (USPS< Royal Mail etc...)
 
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Tugger
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:18 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Adopino

Did you say James Hoffa.

Given that he disappeared in 1975, exactly what year are you talking about?.

Just a quick google of "James Hoffa IBT" would have answered your question:
From Wikipedia
James P. Hoffa
General President of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters

James Phillip Hoffa is an attorney and labor leader and the General President of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters. Hoffa was first elected during December 1998 and took office on March 19, 1999. He was subsequently re-elected in 2001, 2006, 2011, and 2016 to five-year terms.


Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:57 pm

I still don't understand this "let them buy a bigger car" attitude. Do the GM top managers really believe that the person who has a budget for a Cruze will drive away in a Malibu or Equinox instead of going to the neighbours and drive away in an Elantra? Or a Civic for that matter?
How far from reality these people are?
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:21 pm

No, they expect those buyers to go other producers, there’s not enough profit for GM to cater to those buyers. It’s opportunity cost—GM thinks it’s better off using the capital and labor to build other cars.

GF
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:31 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, they expect those buyers to go other producers, there’s not enough profit for GM to cater to those buyers. It’s opportunity cost—GM thinks it’s better off using the capital and labor to build other cars.

GF


Are you sure that's the case? The US3 already made a similar move once when they discontinued their compact trucks. Were they really happy with the prospective Ranger and Colorado customers buying Tacomas and Frontiers instead? Apparently not, otherwise the Ranger and Colorado wouldn't be back.
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tommy1808
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:35 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, they expect those buyers to go other producers, there’s not enough profit for GM to cater to those buyers. It’s opportunity cost—GM thinks it’s better off using the capital and labor to build other cars.

GF


I find it rather odd that they expect no brand loyalty from car customers. Most people around me stick to the brand of their first car, unless it was a real troublemaker, for a long, long time and several vehicles.
Almost everyone making small/compact/cheap economy cars also has everything up to upper class in their line up or brand family.

Makes me wonder how many people in the US driving a VW, Audi or Porsche had a rabbit or beetle as their first car.

Best regards
Thomas
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Tugger
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:41 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, they expect those buyers to go other producers, there’s not enough profit for GM to cater to those buyers. It’s opportunity cost—GM thinks it’s better off using the capital and labor to build other cars.

GF

And this again shows the dumb short term thinking of many US businesses (as demanded by the short term blind thinking of the US stock market). It becomes only about the next quarter and not about a healthy thriving long term business.

US airlines have been doing this with FF rewards programs and here US car companies are doing this with sedans and small cars. These things are not about profit, or max profit, NOW, these thing are about developing a customer base long into the future. And that is where the profit is.

Small cars are what beginning buyers go for, and they then generally move up the ladder from there. And often will return to the same company if they had a good experience with its product.

Now there is a real question about the future of buyers of cars with the sharing economy, self driving vehicles, etc. But I don't see that coming into play for another two decades at least.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
apodino
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:33 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Adopino

Did you say James Hoffa.

Given that he disappeared in 1975, exactly what year are you talking about?.

Jimmy Hoffa disappeared in 1975. James Hoffa, is the current President of the IBT...and this happened earlier this year I believe.
 
Ken777
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:39 am

GM is well known for making stupid decisions. Remember the Baby Caddy from the early 80's that was going to take on the Mercedes? It was a total failure. At the same time Holden (GM in Australia) introduced the Commodore, which was an Opal designed and engineered car that would have been the perfect car to used against the MB. Not only did they pick the worst option, but they eventually sold off Opal.

These days the roads (at least in Oklahoma) are crowded with Pickem-Up Trucks and that is one of the main problems in moving to smaller cars. It's not the milage that irritates me, it's the difficulty of looking at traffic when trying to make a simple right turn. The big SUVs are just as bad and just makes no sense to me. I have an Encore which is an economy SUV and that is sufficient for in-city driving. My neighbor has a big Chevy Tahoe buy recently bought a used small SUV for driving around town. The gas hog is held back for driving in the country - at least for now. If I'm looking at a long drive I'll head to the airport.

GM's problems are both bad decisions on their cars (and over pricing their products) and not understanding the market in terms of what cars/SUVs/Trucks to produce. Big trucks will pour in the profits because of the margins, but will deliver major problems when the price of petrol starts moving up big time.
 
NIKV69
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:06 am

2122M wrote:

Thank you for saying that. I was trying to figure out under what rock NIKV lives that he or she has never heard of FedEx, DHL, TNT or even the Postal Services of the world (USPS< Royal Mail etc...)


Ground service I bet UPS has almost half the market share and FedEx not even a quarter so yes they have no competition not to mention if someone ever came close the teamsters would probably go old school Jimmy Hoffa style.
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
Ken777
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:14 am

NIKV69 wrote:

Ground service I bet UPS has almost half the market share and FedEx not even a quarter so yes they have no competition not to mention if someone ever came close the teamsters would probably go old school Jimmy Hoffa style.


You might be surprised at the level of Amazon 2 Day Delivery that is taken to your house in a USPS van. Politicians have put up some nasty roadblocks that has hurt the Post Office but it has still done well.
 
af773atmsp
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:25 pm

If anyone wonders why GM is cutting economy cars when gas prices are bound to go up again, just remember they kept building land yachts during the oil crisis, and only in the 80s when the Japanese and Germans were taking over America did GM bring out economy cars (that were half-baked) in a desperate attempt to compete.
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Aesma
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:40 pm

Ken777 wrote:
Personally I believe that the Executive Offices is totally at fault. They should have seen the shift to SUV's and shifted more production lines to all sizes of SUV's. I have a '16 Encore and get great milage. The only issue with the car is the small storage area in the rear. It's assembled in Korea and overall is a pretty good car.


Will the Encore continue to be made now that Opel has been sold to Peugeot ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Redd
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:53 pm

af773atmsp wrote:
If anyone wonders why GM is cutting economy cars when gas prices are bound to go up again, just remember they kept building land yachts during the oil crisis, and only in the 80s when the Japanese and Germans were taking over America did GM bring out economy cars (that were half-baked) in a desperate attempt to compete.


I just think the mileage isn't that different anymore between SUV's and cars in the same class. Used to own a Golf TDI and averaged just over 50mpg, bought a significantly more powerful VW Tiguan TDI SUV with all wheel drive and I average around 50mpg, cruises comfortably at 160km/h. The Tiguan is miles ahead when it comes to practicality and not to mention safety. The AWD system is great in the mountains in winter. I don't think any auto manufacturer will be going back to cars due to oil prices. The mileage gap has been significantly closed.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:03 pm

There is no doubt GM made a lot of bad decisions, one would be surprised to know one of the world's most popular small diesel engine is produced by a GM/Fiat JV, which GM never used for a decade. How dumb one has to to be for such a decision.

Wholeheartedly never designed a compact/sub-compact, always tried to piggyback on South Korean designs. Ford sincerely focused on the Focus platform, and I think it will reap benefits, even if there is no sedan.

Volt is a very good design, the only issue is its battery pack shape, making it a four-passenger vehicle. Probably they will have a successor to Volt.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:31 pm

Redd wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
If anyone wonders why GM is cutting economy cars when gas prices are bound to go up again, just remember they kept building land yachts during the oil crisis, and only in the 80s when the Japanese and Germans were taking over America did GM bring out economy cars (that were half-baked) in a desperate attempt to compete.


I just think the mileage isn't that different anymore between SUV's and cars in the same class. Used to own a Golf TDI and averaged just over 50mpg, bought a significantly more powerful VW Tiguan TDI SUV with all wheel drive and I average around 50mpg, cruises comfortably at 160km/h. The Tiguan is miles ahead when it comes to practicality and not to mention safety. The AWD system is great in the mountains in winter. I don't think any auto manufacturer will be going back to cars due to oil prices. The mileage gap has been significantly closed.


That's because today's SUV's are bloated cars. Same platforms, same engines. Fuel economy will be slightly worse due to higher mass and front area, but that's about it. BTW, I'm very skeptical about 50 mpg while cruising at 160 km/h.
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petertenthije
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:04 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
one would be surprised to know one of the world's most popular small diesel engine is produced by a GM/Fiat JV, which GM never used for a decade.
I am assuming you mean the Fiat Multijet range of engines? These were, and still are, used by (back then) GM’s Opel and Vauxhall brands. As well as by other companies outside the GM and FCA groups.

The earlier versions of these engines are not that brilliant though. They drive very nicely and are fuel efficient. But they also have a nasty tendency of breaking the timing chain after roughly 180k to 200k km. The repair costs for this are very high. Often beyond the blue book value.

I have had my own car written-off like that (Fiat Punto) and a friend of mine had the same issue (Opel Meriva). If you check the internet you will find this happens quite a lot. In particular the early models of this engine, buildyear around 2010ish.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:33 pm

Not having Diesel engines in US GM cars is a very good thing considering the environmental problems.

GF
 
tommy1808
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:20 am

WildcatYXU wrote:
BTW, I'm very skeptical about 50 mpg while cruising at 160 km/h.


Yup, no chance. But overall you can get that even with highway stints going up to that speed. My Passat with the 140HP TDI is one heavy car and i run it at 47mpg and take it up to 210 on empty highways and average 5.063L/100km over the year. At 160 cruise it would display a ~40 mpg and it pretty accurate as it gives a long term total of 5.1L, which is very close to what accounting tells me I actually use.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Not having Diesel engines in US GM cars is a very good thing considering the environmental problems.


Regulatory and enforcement problem, leading to an environmental one, you can make diesel very clean. Direct injecting gasoline cars are not exactly free of issues with particulars either.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Redd
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:14 am

WildcatYXU wrote:
Redd wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
If anyone wonders why GM is cutting economy cars when gas prices are bound to go up again, just remember they kept building land yachts during the oil crisis, and only in the 80s when the Japanese and Germans were taking over America did GM bring out economy cars (that were half-baked) in a desperate attempt to compete.


I just think the mileage isn't that different anymore between SUV's and cars in the same class. Used to own a Golf TDI and averaged just over 50mpg, bought a significantly more powerful VW Tiguan TDI SUV with all wheel drive and I average around 50mpg, cruises comfortably at 160km/h. The Tiguan is miles ahead when it comes to practicality and not to mention safety. The AWD system is great in the mountains in winter. I don't think any auto manufacturer will be going back to cars due to oil prices. The mileage gap has been significantly closed.


That's because today's SUV's are bloated cars. Same platforms, same engines. Fuel economy will be slightly worse due to higher mass and front area, but that's about it. BTW, I'm very skeptical about 50 mpg while cruising at 160 km/h.


I didn't mean 50mpg at 160km/h, should have phrased that differently.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:18 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
BTW, I'm very skeptical about 50 mpg while cruising at 160 km/h.


Yup, no chance. But overall you can get that even with highway stints going up to that speed. My Passat with the 140HP TDI is one heavy car and i run it at 47mpg and take it up to 210 on empty highways and average 5.063L/100km over the year. At 160 cruise it would display a ~40 mpg and it pretty accurate as it gives a long term total of 5.1L, which is very close to what accounting tells me I actually use.

Best regards
Thomas


I wouldn't call the Passat a heavy car, but it's still impressive, regardless diesel being a heavier fuel than gasoline which should lead to better fuel economy by itself.

tommy1808 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Not having Diesel engines in US GM cars is a very good thing considering the environmental problems.


Regulatory and enforcement problem, leading to an environmental one, you can make diesel very clean. Direct injecting gasoline cars are not exactly free of issues with particulars either.

Best regards
Thomas


And NOx emissions. Direct injected gasoline engines are now widely used around here. Heck, I'm not sure if GM is even offering other than direct injected engines now, so the "advantage" of not offering diesel engines is moot. Not that these weren't offered around here, but who would buy them when the fuel is 10-30% more expensive?
Last edited by WildcatYXU on Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Flighty
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:37 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
I still don't understand this "let them buy a bigger car" attitude. Do the GM top managers really believe that the person who has a budget for a Cruze will drive away in a Malibu or Equinox instead of going to the neighbours and drive away in an Elantra? Or a Civic for that matter?
How far from reality these people are?


Certainly. Truck/SUV are now the majority of the market. And Truck/SUV is probably >100% of the Big 3 profitability. (meaning, 100% of profits, and they lose money on everything else).

It's not far from reality at all. Sedans are going away. Actually, a sedan doesn't make sense anyhow. It was just a temporary trend. Hatchbacks are going to continue to be popular. Even a Suburban is a hatchback, just a really big one.

GM managers were in a tough spot. >100% of your profit comes from a tariff-protected large truck product line. Now what? Sit there forever? Won't the Suburban end someday? Then how will GM make money?

I think the large pickup track craze will go away. Most buyers do not need them. They are fashion accessories like a fat banker might wear a cowboy hat at his desk. Same thing. (Oh but!) My cars are fashion accessories too, I own it. I don't "need" an SUV and neither does anyone else.

So GM needs to quit the charade, be honest about 2018 business model (=trucks) and think about 2025 business model now. Otherwise GM is done.

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