2122M
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:42 pm

So if this business decision by GM is 100% market driven, entirely predictable and no amount of political policy could prevent it, how come Trump campaigned on boosting automotive manufacturing jobs and saving the auto industry? Was he too stupid to see this market cycle coming? Is his grasp of the economy maybe not as firm as he would have you think?

Or..

Did he know he was talking out of his ass but also knew that a huge chunk of his voter base would eat it up in 2016 just to explain away its failure 2 years later on FOX News and internet message boards?
 
slider
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:43 pm

Jalopnik has a good take on this, so for all of you yammering about Trump or tariffs, please read and check the facts.

https://jalopnik.com/heres-everything-g ... 1830654490

Candidly, the only political issue I'd have to be ornery about is that GM took tax cuts and a special package from Congress and then did this. That's shitty.

But they needed to have been more nimble (where have we heard this before) in adapting to the changing consumer tastes, buying practices, and operating efficiencies long before this. When they're riding high, they lose all interest in being cost or manufacturing efficient.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:55 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Dogman wrote:
What I am trying to say that compact cars are far from dead. My friend who got the Civic is saving $250 per month on gas.


Anyone who is driving enough to have SAVINGS of 250 dollars per month on gas has no business driving anything but an extremely high efficiency, High MPG vehicle. I don't even pay 250 dollars a month for my Ram 1500 that gets about 20 MPG.


There must be mistake. Gas is currently about a buck per liter here, so the saved fuel alone would be enough for 3000+ km in a Civic. That's a lot of driving.
That said, if I'd by driving 3000+ km per month, I wouldn't do it in a Civic (or any other compact for that matter).
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A3801000
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:13 pm

Good to see that this caricature of a president has it all under control :D

'GM shares hit session low after President Trump tweets that "we are now looking at cutting all GM subsidies including for electric cars" after company announced 14K+ job cuts and plant closures. '
 
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trpmb6
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:32 pm

A3801000 wrote:
Good to see that this caricature of a president has it all under control :D

'GM shares hit session low after President Trump tweets that "we are now looking at cutting all GM subsidies including for electric cars" after company announced 14K+ job cuts and plant closures. '



Live by the sword die by the sword.
 
Dogman
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:36 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Dogman wrote:
There must be mistake. Gas is currently about a buck per liter here, so the saved fuel alone would be enough for 3000+ km in a Civic. That's a lot of driving.
That said, if I'd by driving 3000+ km per month, I wouldn't do it in a Civic (or any other compact for that matter).


We talked in August, gas was more expensive back then. Also, I think you got it wrong. He said that he was paying $250 less when he got the Civic, not that he spends that much money on gas for the Civic.
 
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Tugger
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:01 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
Good to see that this caricature of a president has it all under control :D

'GM shares hit session low after President Trump tweets that "we are now looking at cutting all GM subsidies including for electric cars" after company announced 14K+ job cuts and plant closures. '



Live by the sword die by the sword.

Yes, Trump continues to be a poor president. He makes everything political and a personal attack on him. Poor guy.

And apparently he doesn't understand the deals he makes and the effects of them and the tariffs he has imposed. He starts a trade war with China and yet does not get why GM would then have to make cars there for that market since China has imposed retaliatory tariffs on US made cars entering China.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:03 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
slider wrote:
Candidly, the only political issue I'd have to be ornery about is that GM took tax cuts and a special package from Congress and then did this. That's shitty.

You mean you really thought a company would use the tax cuts to invest in its workforce instead of padding its profits? Bless your innocent heart.

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Because we can? I have 2 trucks, single male. Don't really care about having some high MPG Asian piece of crap, I'll take my 2 Ford trucks that do less than 20MPG and complain when gas is too high and can't make ends meet...because I can

There. Fixed it for you.


I make 100K+ a year, I couldn't give you 2cents about the price of gas. It is what it is. People want to complain about the environment, great, tell that to China.
From my cold, dead hands
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:05 pm

And then I have a friend who bought a well used Tundra based SUV - to drive the 3 huge children's car seat filled with kids around town - a few thousands of miles a year!
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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casinterest
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:09 pm

slider wrote:
Jalopnik has a good take on this, so for all of you yammering about Trump or tariffs, please read and check the facts.

https://jalopnik.com/heres-everything-g ... 1830654490

Candidly, the only political issue I'd have to be ornery about is that GM took tax cuts and a special package from Congress and then did this. That's shitty.

But they needed to have been more nimble (where have we heard this before) in adapting to the changing consumer tastes, buying practices, and operating efficiencies long before this. When they're riding high, they lose all interest in being cost or manufacturing efficient.


The problem is, GM is picking up the ball and going home. Sure they say they need Software and electrical engineers, but if they don't have folks good at putting it all together, then they are screwed. Look how long it has taken Tesla to get their car under production.

I would believe cars were a real issue if GM was looking at closing Mexican plants down as well and shifting Truck jobs back north, but they are closing a plant that also produces SUV's and Trucks. There is something wrong with the Math of it all if Trucks are still a big seller. Truth of it is that the steel tariffs among other items is making it cost prohibitive to build in the US with sub par products.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:12 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
And then I have a friend who bought a well used Tundra based SUV - to drive the 3 huge children's car seat filled with kids around town - a few thousands of miles a year!


The new car seat designs (cough requirements) make it almost impossible to even fit them in Malibu these days. Don't even try a compact car, you'll be eating your steering wheel. Friend of mine owns a Cruz, they have to push the seat forward in the passenger seat so far he's basically eating the dashboard.
 
PPVRA
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:13 pm

GM has been a shitty company for decades... should’ve gone bankrupt 8 years ago or whenever it was.... bailed out and they’re still a shitty company. Surprise surprise!
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
2122M
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:13 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
slider wrote:
Candidly, the only political issue I'd have to be ornery about is that GM took tax cuts and a special package from Congress and then did this. That's shitty.

You mean you really thought a company would use the tax cuts to invest in its workforce instead of padding its profits? Bless your innocent heart.

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Because we can? I have 2 trucks, single male. Don't really care about having some high MPG Asian piece of crap, I'll take my 2 Ford trucks that do less than 20MPG and complain when gas is too high and can't make ends meet...because I can

There. Fixed it for you.


I make 100K+ a year, I couldn't give you 2cents about the price of gas. It is what it is. People want to complain about the environment, great, tell that to China.


But do you care at all about doing your part to make the world a better place for future generations? Or does it not matter because you make 100k+ a year?

By the way, 2 big pickup trucks AND bragging about how much money you make! That's OK, I bet it looks huge in Donald Trump's tiny hands....
 
StarAC17
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:19 pm

AA747123 wrote:
These closures have nothing to do with Trump. Americans dont want small fuel efficient cars like the Volt/Cruz.. The demand is for larger SUV/Trucks. GM is adapting to the market changes. Thats all.


Your are trolling but Americans buy those cars often just not from US automakers, they buy Hondas, Toyotas, Kia's, Nissans, Hyundai's, VW's etc. many of which are now built in North America. The luxury cars are solidly German brands.

Regarding the Volt, it is really small but if they scaled that up to midsized or full sized then that would sell like hotcakes.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
It is dismaying that Japan, Korea, and Germany can make and sell sedans, this will leave Tesla the only major (?) US auto company selling sedans (and Musk is coming after the pickup business as well).


There are seen as better quality and marketed far more than the US big 3 are at least from what I see on TV and the internet. I don't include Tesla in this as they are strictly luxury IMO, even if you have a model 3 that is still not economical in price for most people.

It's anecdotal but my entire family drives Japanese cars and are very happy with them, I drive a 2008 Civic (no plans to get rid of it any time soon) and my parents both drive Subaru's (2010 Forester and a 2013 Impreza) .
My brother just bought a used Sonata hybrid and handed his fiancee his 2013 Cruz. That car while good has had far more problems than any of the cars mentioned above.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
johnboy
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:19 pm

He’s protecting the American worker by trash -talking the company, when the stock market is open? Funny way to protect the worker when you’re trying to gut the company itself. I’m sure the base will appreciate the long view here.
:roll:


trpmb6 wrote:
Live by the sword die by the sword.


Well, I keep hoping this every morning when I wake up but no dice thus far.

#moreBigMacsplease
 
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trpmb6
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:37 pm

Indeed, they should have been allowed to fail earlier. Instead we the taxpayers extended and enabled them to continue down a path that was inevitable.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:02 pm

Dogman wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:


We talked in August, gas was more expensive back then. Also, I think you got it wrong. He said that he was paying $250 less when he got the Civic, not that he spends that much money on gas for the Civic.


Sure. Still, unless he drove a F650 or something similar before, he has to drive a lot to save so much on fuel after switching to a smaller vehicle.
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EasternSon
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:03 pm

Okie wrote:
Not sure exactly where GM is really going here.
Barra has collectively lowered GM market cap by about 20Bn and not really been out in front of anything new. No visual presence by Barra what so ever promoting the brand.
Other than Pickups and SUV's I am not sure of anything new or profound that GM has announced in the last 5 years since Barra's tenure.


********

Not really much going on style wise other than Corvette and Camaro everything else is pretty sleepy.

Predicting a new CEO post haste.

Okie


She's re-aligning the company for the future. You're going to see development of electric vehicles and self-driving cars. She's been with the company a long time, and has seen how they failed to plan for the future. I don't think she's going to make the same mistakes as her predecessors.
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
 
Dogman
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:40 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
Dogman wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:


We talked in August, gas was more expensive back then. Also, I think you got it wrong. He said that he was paying $250 less when he got the Civic, not that he spends that much money on gas for the Civic.


Sure. Still, unless he drove a F650 or something similar before, he has to drive a lot to save so much on fuel after switching to a smaller vehicle.


I spend ~$150 per month on gas, 3 x $50 for Pontiac Vibe 2.4 L. So, if he is spending ~$100 for his Civic it would mean that he was spending ~$350 per month for his Sierra. I don't know if that sound reasonable, never owned a truck.
 
LMP737
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:44 pm

slider wrote:
Jalopnik has a good take on this, so for all of you yammering about Trump or tariffs, please read and check the facts.

https://jalopnik.com/heres-everything-g ... 1830654490

Candidly, the only political issue I'd have to be ornery about is that GM took tax cuts and a special package from Congress and then did this. That's shitty.

But they needed to have been more nimble (where have we heard this before) in adapting to the changing consumer tastes, buying practices, and operating efficiencies long before this. When they're riding high, they lose all interest in being cost or manufacturing efficient.


Another article from the same site.

https://jalopnik.com/the-american-car-b ... 1828964923
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:45 pm

Dogman wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
Dogman wrote:

We talked in August, gas was more expensive back then. Also, I think you got it wrong. He said that he was paying $250 less when he got the Civic, not that he spends that much money on gas for the Civic.


Sure. Still, unless he drove a F650 or something similar before, he has to drive a lot to save so much on fuel after switching to a smaller vehicle.


I spend ~$150 per month on gas, 3 x $50 for Pontiac Vibe 2.4 L. So, if he is spending ~$100 for his Civic it would mean that he was spending ~$350 per month for his Sierra. I don't know if that sound reasonable, never owned a truck.


You're talking Canadian loonies right? Because I don't know how you could drive so much to basically have the same cost in USD I do for driving my Ram 1500. You'd have to drive basically twice as much as I do and I drive a lot.

Gas must be expensive in Canada.

Edit: Not trying to be nasty or anything, just think we're all thinking USD when the canadian dollar is a bit strong right now.
 
Dogman
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:59 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Dogman wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:

Sure. Still, unless he drove a F650 or something similar before, he has to drive a lot to save so much on fuel after switching to a smaller vehicle.


I spend ~$150 per month on gas, 3 x $50 for Pontiac Vibe 2.4 L. So, if he is spending ~$100 for his Civic it would mean that he was spending ~$350 per month for his Sierra. I don't know if that sound reasonable, never owned a truck.


You're talking Canadian loonies right? Because I don't know how you could drive so much to basically have the same cost in USD I do for driving my Ram 1500. You'd have to drive basically twice as much as I do and I drive a lot.

Gas must be expensive in Canada.

Edit: Not trying to be nasty or anything, just think we're all thinking USD when the canadian dollar is a bit strong right now.


In USD its ~$3 per gallon right now. At the end of August it was something like $3.6.
 
johnboy
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:33 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
We made it 3 posts before politics took over. Sigh.



Well to be fair, that bastard POTUS started it with his tweet.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:35 pm

Dogman wrote:

In USD its ~$3 per gallon right now. At the end of August it was something like $3.6.


Incidently, the number I came up with in my spreadsheet was $3.6/gal based on the 1.3 can/liter i saw.

I think that helps explain away part of the cost.

Where I live right now, we're about to dip below 2 USD per gallon so in canadian that's.. what 75 cent per liter? Think I transcribed that right.
 
NIKV69
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:42 pm

mmo wrote:
Glad Trump got the auto industry back on its feet!!!!


Not his fault. He isn't running the company. GM has always been horribly run. Caving too much to the thug union. Paying too much money to retirees. Not making vehicles people want. Nobody wants sedans anymore it's vehicles like the Murano and Edge.

This is what happens when you reach this point. Have to close some locations and people lose their job. Don't like it? Go work for Nissan.


trpmb6 wrote:
Indeed, they should have been allowed to fail earlier. Instead we the taxpayers extended and enabled them to continue down a path that was inevitable.


Yep
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
Dogman
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:02 pm

GM's biggest problem was not the unions but the loss of reputations. There was an article by John Phillips from Car and Driver, which unfortunately I couldn't find, that was telling the story of GM's shift from competing on quality to competing on price that kicked into the overdrive under Roger Smith, when former executives from P&G were brought on board. I still remember the phrase from it, when he talked to one of the suppliers: "It will not work. He will get his price, but the suppliers will not give him their blood. They will take out the quality." It was possible to win back the reputation, like Hyundai did after their first disastrous foray into North American market, but that takes time and effort. GM had chosen to quit the whole lower market segment. Time will tell, but I personally think it was a bad idea.
 
LMP737
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:05 pm

NIKV69 wrote:

Not his fault. He isn't running the company. GM has always been horribly run. Caving too much to the thug union. Paying too much money to retirees. Not making vehicles people want. Nobody wants sedans anymore it's vehicles like the Murano and Edge.



Caving into union thugs? That tired old excuse. Not making vehicles people want has more to do with GM's problems than that.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:36 pm

GM is crap, even outside of America. It's rather telling that they've basically retreated from foreign markets with the sale of Opel/Vauxhall to Peugeot last year. At least Ford has its European division holding up the brand in foreign markets.

And I honestly don't get the obsession with SUVs. I really don't. Pickups maybe, but even then it's only reasonable if you're using it as a workhorse. If you're a bloody doctor who hardly do any DIY projects etc, then it makes absolutely zero sense whatsoever.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:09 am

Actually the sad thing for General Motors and Cadillac is that the later finally started making some pretty good sedans ..... about the time sedans quit selling.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:14 am

seb146 wrote:
The models they are halting are ones that could get them through any economic downturn.


When the next economic downturn comes, the vehicle production is going to move into electric full gear, not so much small cars, flex-fuel medium/large cars, or maybe even hybrids.

2008-09 didn't have the technological means to offer electric at a large scale, which is why the larger vehicles received a flex-fuel option to offset the high cost of fuel at the time.

Having said that, it's time to offer larger-size electric vehicles, maybe even bring back some of the mid/full size categories. All for saving the environment, but I also don't want to drive a golf cart doing it.
 
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Berevoff
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:12 am

WarRI1 wrote:
Berevoff wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
I have to wonder how many of my Union brothers and sisters who were at the rallies for this Idiot we have in office now, while wearing their Union Hats are now being laid off ? Be careful of what you wish for, it can come back and bite you in the Ass.


yeah demanding wages out of line with the product causes lots of these factories to go overseas where its cheaper. demanding big pay doesn't matter in a global economy when someone in china or mexico will do it for half the price

these factories would still be open if unions didnt money grab


If one does not have a credible reply, one should keep ones mouth shut. That is a lesson in life that seems to be forgotten. Of course one might if one thought about it for a moment, wonder just who made and still makes the money grabs that have decimated the American way of life. :banghead: :banghead:


paying a high school educated person 30 bucks an hour to step on pedals on an assembly line is the quickest way to drive manufacturing over to china and mexico

maybe we need to lower our standards of living to a reasonable level. having the newest house and car and tv isn't the way to go. people need to be more humble and frugal
 
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cpd
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:25 am

Berevoff wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
Berevoff wrote:

yeah demanding wages out of line with the product causes lots of these factories to go overseas where its cheaper. demanding big pay doesn't matter in a global economy when someone in china or mexico will do it for half the price

these factories would still be open if unions didnt money grab


If one does not have a credible reply, one should keep ones mouth shut. That is a lesson in life that seems to be forgotten. Of course one might if one thought about it for a moment, wonder just who made and still makes the money grabs that have decimated the American way of life. :banghead: :banghead:


paying a high school educated person 30 bucks an hour to step on pedals on an assembly line is the quickest way to drive manufacturing over to china and mexico

maybe we need to lower our standards of living to a reasonable level. having the newest house and car and tv isn't the way to go. people need to be more humble and frugal


Living in a mud-brick house, no flat screen TVs, no air-con, none of that stuff. Just some electricity from a small solar and battery system to run only the essentials. No social media, no mobiles, no facebook or twitter. Imagine it... Could you manage that?
 
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Berevoff
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:13 am

cpd wrote:
Berevoff wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:

If one does not have a credible reply, one should keep ones mouth shut. That is a lesson in life that seems to be forgotten. Of course one might if one thought about it for a moment, wonder just who made and still makes the money grabs that have decimated the American way of life. :banghead: :banghead:


paying a high school educated person 30 bucks an hour to step on pedals on an assembly line is the quickest way to drive manufacturing over to china and mexico

maybe we need to lower our standards of living to a reasonable level. having the newest house and car and tv isn't the way to go. people need to be more humble and frugal


Living in a mud-brick house, no flat screen TVs, no air-con, none of that stuff. Just some electricity from a small solar and battery system to run only the essentials. No social media, no mobiles, no facebook or twitter. Imagine it... Could you manage that?


that's crazy. I'm talking about living within your means. if you work in a factory or have a low skilled job you shouldn't expect to have new flat screens, a new car, or new cellphones or clothes.

how many videos do we see people complaining about "the man" when theyre filming sideways on 800 phones? makes no sense
 
seb146
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:37 am

phatfarmlines wrote:
seb146 wrote:
The models they are halting are ones that could get them through any economic downturn.


When the next economic downturn comes, the vehicle production is going to move into electric full gear, not so much small cars, flex-fuel medium/large cars, or maybe even hybrids.

2008-09 didn't have the technological means to offer electric at a large scale, which is why the larger vehicles received a flex-fuel option to offset the high cost of fuel at the time.

Having said that, it's time to offer larger-size electric vehicles, maybe even bring back some of the mid/full size categories. All for saving the environment, but I also don't want to drive a golf cart doing it.


There are plenty of good mid/full sedans and smaller SUVs that are hybrid. They could easily be switched over to all electric or even alternative fuel. I think, instead of giving up on all those different models, they should give up SOME of them, and make others hybrid, electric, or alternative fuel.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
luckyone
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Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:04 am

A thought occurred to me, and it is this: GM and Ford might be a victim of their own (quite successful) marketing of their large SUVs and trucks. Plenty of Civics, Corollas (though god knows why because the car is as exciting as a dial tone), Elantras, etc etc are sold. But Ford and chevy can’t keep the Focus and Cruze moving. I wonder if, in part, this is due to how they treat customers interested in those models (as mentioned above) because I read somewhere that Ford makes an average profit of about $13,000 per F-150 that it sells, and conversely, those customers’ comfort level and how they perceive being on the lot next to people. In our image-conscious society, what we arrive with, and drive off the lot may very well affect our choice of where we go to purchase it. There may also be just enough people turned off by the tranches of pristinely clean, never hauled a load or towed a trailer F-series and Silverados that the clientele may be off-putting to them, and the Honda or Hyundai dealership seems less pretentious. Those manufacturers also market themselves as value-oriented, so it may be a challenge for Ford and GM to make that cohesive when they’re selling $40,000+ pickup trucks next to $20,000 economy cars. The Asian manufactures don’t have the same problem.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 11951
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:13 am

LMP737 wrote:

Caving into union thugs? That tired old excuse. Not making vehicles people want has more to do with GM's problems than that.


What are you talking about? Doesn't unit cost mean anything? Well that cost to make a vehicle includes the perks you are paying to people that don't even work for you anymore. Hurts especially when Nissan in TN pays a lot less to make a vehicle more people are buying. Someone need to have the courage to tell the AFL-CIO to go fly a kite.
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
seb146
Posts: 18439
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:10 am

NIKV69 wrote:
What are you talking about? Doesn't unit cost mean anything? Well that cost to make a vehicle includes the perks you are paying to people that don't even work for you anymore. Hurts especially when Nissan in TN pays a lot less to make a vehicle more people are buying. Someone need to have the courage to tell the AFL-CIO to go fly a kite.


Things like paying into retirement funds and group health insurance. Just do what everyone else does and use the emergency room as their primary care (declaring bankruptcy after) and work until they die. How dare people go in as a group for benefits! /sarcasm
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:09 am

LMP737 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

Not his fault. He isn't running the company. GM has always been horribly run. Caving too much to the thug union. Paying too much money to retirees. Not making vehicles people want. Nobody wants sedans anymore it's vehicles like the Murano and Edge.



Caving into union thugs? That tired old excuse. Not making vehicles people want has more to do with GM's problems than that.


probably a good time to suggest looking up what Volkswagen workers make in Germany. ...

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/ ... rkers-earn

A GM Worker has to work almost 1.5 days per week (!) more to make what his colleagues at Volkswagen in Germany make.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
JJJ
Posts: 3059
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:35 am

luckyone wrote:
A thought occurred to me, and it is this: GM and Ford might be a victim of their own (quite successful) marketing of their large SUVs and trucks. Plenty of Civics, Corollas (though god knows why because the car is as exciting as a dial tone), Elantras, etc etc are sold. But Ford and chevy can’t keep the Focus and Cruze moving. I wonder if, in part, this is due to how they treat customers interested in those models (as mentioned above) because I read somewhere that Ford makes an average profit of about $13,000 per F-150 that it sells, and conversely, those customers’ comfort level and how they perceive being on the lot next to people. In our image-conscious society, what we arrive with, and drive off the lot may very well affect our choice of where we go to purchase it. There may also be just enough people turned off by the tranches of pristinely clean, never hauled a load or towed a trailer F-series and Silverados that the clientele may be off-putting to them, and the Honda or Hyundai dealership seems less pretentious. Those manufacturers also market themselves as value-oriented, so it may be a challenge for Ford and GM to make that cohesive when they’re selling $40,000+ pickup trucks next to $20,000 economy cars. The Asian manufactures don’t have the same problem.


It's been a while since I've been to a Toyota or Nissan dealer in the US but next to those Corollas there are similar pristine lines of Tundras and Land Cruisers.

Someone told me once his experience while trying to buy a Focus/Dart/etc. that Ford/GM/FCA tried quite aggressively to upgrade you to bigger cars while Asian brand dealers seemed happy that once you've expressed interest on a compact car it might well be because you want a small, fuel-efficient car and not a bigger SUV. He ended up with a Corolla, btw.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:37 am

JJJ wrote:
luckyone wrote:
A thought occurred to me, and it is this: GM and Ford might be a victim of their own (quite successful) marketing of their large SUVs and trucks. Plenty of Civics, Corollas (though god knows why because the car is as exciting as a dial tone), Elantras, etc etc are sold. But Ford and chevy can’t keep the Focus and Cruze moving. I wonder if, in part, this is due to how they treat customers interested in those models (as mentioned above) because I read somewhere that Ford makes an average profit of about $13,000 per F-150 that it sells, and conversely, those customers’ comfort level and how they perceive being on the lot next to people. In our image-conscious society, what we arrive with, and drive off the lot may very well affect our choice of where we go to purchase it. There may also be just enough people turned off by the tranches of pristinely clean, never hauled a load or towed a trailer F-series and Silverados that the clientele may be off-putting to them, and the Honda or Hyundai dealership seems less pretentious. Those manufacturers also market themselves as value-oriented, so it may be a challenge for Ford and GM to make that cohesive when they’re selling $40,000+ pickup trucks next to $20,000 economy cars. The Asian manufactures don’t have the same problem.


It's been a while since I've been to a Toyota or Nissan dealer in the US but next to those Corollas there are similar pristine lines of Tundras and Land Cruisers.

Someone told me once his experience while trying to buy a Focus/Dart/etc. that Ford/GM/FCA tried quite aggressively to upgrade you to bigger cars while Asian brand dealers seemed happy that once you've expressed interest on a compact car it might well be because you want a small, fuel-efficient car and not a bigger SUV. He ended up with a Corolla, btw.


SUVs are protected by the US unfair trade practices and protected by way higher tariffs than the other way round. It would appear SUVs are the only field where US OEMs can compete, and only do to protectionist policies.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
JJJ
Posts: 3059
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:22 am

tommy1808 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
luckyone wrote:
A thought occurred to me, and it is this: GM and Ford might be a victim of their own (quite successful) marketing of their large SUVs and trucks. Plenty of Civics, Corollas (though god knows why because the car is as exciting as a dial tone), Elantras, etc etc are sold. But Ford and chevy can’t keep the Focus and Cruze moving. I wonder if, in part, this is due to how they treat customers interested in those models (as mentioned above) because I read somewhere that Ford makes an average profit of about $13,000 per F-150 that it sells, and conversely, those customers’ comfort level and how they perceive being on the lot next to people. In our image-conscious society, what we arrive with, and drive off the lot may very well affect our choice of where we go to purchase it. There may also be just enough people turned off by the tranches of pristinely clean, never hauled a load or towed a trailer F-series and Silverados that the clientele may be off-putting to them, and the Honda or Hyundai dealership seems less pretentious. Those manufacturers also market themselves as value-oriented, so it may be a challenge for Ford and GM to make that cohesive when they’re selling $40,000+ pickup trucks next to $20,000 economy cars. The Asian manufactures don’t have the same problem.


It's been a while since I've been to a Toyota or Nissan dealer in the US but next to those Corollas there are similar pristine lines of Tundras and Land Cruisers.

Someone told me once his experience while trying to buy a Focus/Dart/etc. that Ford/GM/FCA tried quite aggressively to upgrade you to bigger cars while Asian brand dealers seemed happy that once you've expressed interest on a compact car it might well be because you want a small, fuel-efficient car and not a bigger SUV. He ended up with a Corolla, btw.


SUVs are protected by the US unfair trade practices and protected by way higher tariffs than the other way round. It would appear SUVs are the only field where US OEMs can compete, and only do to protectionist policies.


Plenty of foreign-branded but made in the US foreign offerings to compete with American brands without the tariffs.

It is true that the kind of customer that wants a truck or large SUV is more likely to buy American, though. And that's probably the cause why moving truck production to Mexico is a very sensitive issue. That's the kind of move that can damage their most loyal customer base.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5906
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:04 am

luckyone wrote:
Corollas (though god knows why because the car is as exciting as a dial tone),


Isn't not being pretentious part of corolla's success? Appealing to people who value reliability, operating costs and safety and those who don't need a car as part of their "image".
 
luckyone
Posts: 2592
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:17 am

JJJ wrote:
luckyone wrote:
A thought occurred to me, and it is this: GM and Ford might be a victim of their own (quite successful) marketing of their large SUVs and trucks. Plenty of Civics, Corollas (though god knows why because the car is as exciting as a dial tone), Elantras, etc etc are sold. But Ford and chevy can’t keep the Focus and Cruze moving. I wonder if, in part, this is due to how they treat customers interested in those models (as mentioned above) because I read somewhere that Ford makes an average profit of about $13,000 per F-150 that it sells, and conversely, those customers’ comfort level and how they perceive being on the lot next to people. In our image-conscious society, what we arrive with, and drive off the lot may very well affect our choice of where we go to purchase it. There may also be just enough people turned off by the tranches of pristinely clean, never hauled a load or towed a trailer F-series and Silverados that the clientele may be off-putting to them, and the Honda or Hyundai dealership seems less pretentious. Those manufacturers also market themselves as value-oriented, so it may be a challenge for Ford and GM to make that cohesive when they’re selling $40,000+ pickup trucks next to $20,000 economy cars. The Asian manufactures don’t have the same problem.


It's been a while since I've been to a Toyota or Nissan dealer in the US but next to those Corollas there are similar pristine lines of Tundras and Land Cruisers.

Someone told me once his experience while trying to buy a Focus/Dart/etc. that Ford/GM/FCA tried quite aggressively to upgrade you to bigger cars while Asian brand dealers seemed happy that once you've expressed interest on a compact car it might well be because you want a small, fuel-efficient car and not a bigger SUV. He ended up with a Corolla, btw.

Yes they offer trucks as well. But the Toyota Tundra sells 10% of the numbers of the F-series, and Nissan not even half of what Toyota sells. And Toyota sells about 300 Land Cruisers a month in the entire US, far fewer than Ford sells F-series in a single day, or put it this way—Ford moves more F-series in a single day than Toyota does Land Cruisers in a year. They advertise differently as well.
 
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KICT
Posts: 427
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:19 am

trpmb6 wrote:
We made it 3 posts before politics took over. Sigh.

You folks still on the fence with respect to this lunatic President really need to pull your heads out of you a** before it's too late.
 
luckyone
Posts: 2592
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:22 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Corollas (though god knows why because the car is as exciting as a dial tone),


Isn't not being pretentious part of corolla's success? Appealing to people who value reliability, operating costs and safety and those who don't need a car as part of their "image".

Oh absolutely. I was simply talking in terms of driving. The car is slower, less responsive and handles terribly compared to almost every car in its class—Civic, Golf, Focus, etc. The new Corolla is supposed to be significantly improved and I haven’t driven it yet, but IMHO, until the most recent model there are vastly superior vehicles, not flashy at all, for the same money.
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 6751
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:52 pm

luckyone wrote:
Oh absolutely. I was simply talking in terms of driving. The car is slower, less responsive and handles terribly compared to almost every car in its class—Civic, Golf, Focus, etc. The new Corolla is supposed to be significantly improved and I haven’t driven it yet, but IMHO, until the most recent model there are vastly superior vehicles, not flashy at all, for the same money.

There's always a very basic model that appeals to folks who just need a vehicle to go from point A to point B without many bells and whistles added.

When I first started searching for my own car, the first car I saw was a Nissan Sentra (brand new at the dealer in 2014). The model was so basic, it didn't have power windows and just had standard AM/FM radio. It was around $13,000 or so. Not my taste, but someone else might have hit the jackpot with it. I would prefer to have SOME bells and whistles (Sirius XM radio, power windows, adjustable mirrors, cruise control...) rather than stuff I really don't need (like side lighting, rear view cameras (though those are gonna be standard apparently), side detectors...).
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
luckyone
Posts: 2592
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:56 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Oh absolutely. I was simply talking in terms of driving. The car is slower, less responsive and handles terribly compared to almost every car in its class—Civic, Golf, Focus, etc. The new Corolla is supposed to be significantly improved and I haven’t driven it yet, but IMHO, until the most recent model there are vastly superior vehicles, not flashy at all, for the same money.

There's always a very basic model that appeals to folks who just need a vehicle to go from point A to point B without many bells and whistles added.

When I first started searching for my own car, the first car I saw was a Nissan Sentra (brand new at the dealer in 2014). The model was so basic, it didn't have power windows and just had standard AM/FM radio. It was around $13,000 or so. Not my taste, but someone else might have hit the jackpot with it. I would prefer to have SOME bells and whistles (Sirius XM radio, power windows, adjustable mirrors, cruise control...) rather than stuff I really don't need (like side lighting, rear view cameras (though those are gonna be standard apparently), side detectors...).

I don't disagree that there are those folks. I just don't get it, no more, no less. All else equal, the old Corolla was a terrible car to drive, Dullsville: Population 1. There are better-driving, equally reliable, *equally priced* alternatives. That's all the point I'm making. I don't know how else to state that...
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 6260
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:12 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
LMP737 wrote:

Caving into union thugs? That tired old excuse. Not making vehicles people want has more to do with GM's problems than that.


What are you talking about? Doesn't unit cost mean anything? Well that cost to make a vehicle includes the perks you are paying to people that don't even work for you anymore. Hurts especially when Nissan in TN pays a lot less to make a vehicle more people are buying. Someone need to have the courage to tell the AFL-CIO to go fly a kite.


Most post-bankruptcy/bailout blue collar hires are paid $14/hr without many benefits.
A pre-bankruptcy worker doing the same job is paid $70K/year with premium healthcare plus pension and health care after retirement.

GM wants to get rid of these senior blue-collar employees and the fluff in middle management.
They could have got rid of these union employees during last bankruptcy, but it was a bailout supported pre-packaged bankruptcy and Obama/Dems didn't allow many union cuts.
Also not selling Opel//Vaxhall in 2009 was a mistake.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:25 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
but it was a bailout supported pre-packaged bankruptcy and Obama/Dems didn't allow many union cuts. .


Why would they? They don´t mandate pay hikes in good times either...... that US companies can get out of past commitments towards the labor force at all is the real scandal. Get their informed consent or go chapter 7. Governments can give a bailout, they have no place in employee related money flows. Unless you are complaining that the democrats are not socialist enough....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 6260
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: GM Cutting Jobs, Models and Plants

Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:41 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
but it was a bailout supported pre-packaged bankruptcy and Obama/Dems didn't allow many union cuts. .


Why would they? They don´t mandate pay hikes in good times either...... that US companies can get out of past commitments towards the labor force at all is the real scandal. Get their informed consent or go chapter 7. Governments can give a bailout, they have no place in employee related money flows. Unless you are complaining that the democrats are not socialist enough....

best regards
Thomas


If this was a true Chapter 11, not a sub-section 363 sale, the union would have got much less.
There wouldn't be a need to cut leftover workforce again.

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