Airstud
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Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:01 am

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/women-earn ... ns-income/

The gender pay gap...A new analysis concludes that women earn 49 cents compared with every $1 men earn.
...
Economists typically estimate that women earn 80 percent of men's income, a figure that's based on Census data for men and women who work full-time. But that doesn't accurately reflect labor market reality for women, noted the Institute for Women's Policy Research, which published the new analysis. IWPR said earlier studies leave out part-time workers and people who have taken time off from work, which is more common for women than men.


I really don't get the logic behind factoring in part-timers and "people who have taken time off for work" in trying to determine an actual "gender pay gap," a phrase which I believe refers to an inequality between two salaries for equal work in a situation where the woman receives less pay for the same work - meaning both putting in the same amount of time and bringing the same level of experience.

Taking a longer-term view illustrates the actual experience of women, who over a 15-year period are more likely to shoulder the demands of child care than men.... More than four of 10 women step back from the workforce for at least a year -- twice the rate of men.

Ummm.. there you have it then, no? "Stepping back from the workforce for at least a year" - and women not uncommonly do this more than once in their careers - means you have less valuable, saleable experience when you step back in. What exactly are they trying to say when they couch this as "illustrating the actual experience of women?" The article says that the so-called "gender pay gap" is "worse" than previously thought. But I don't get why I'm supposed to buy that when they're admittedly talking about women who've actually done less work.

:boggled:
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WarRI1
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:39 am

I guess you will never understand how it feels to take time off to start a family, give birth, and after you have done your Motherhood duties to a point where you feel able to Mother and raise a child or children and return to work for a living, you find that you are punished for doing your duty as nature intended. Is she as a new Mother not entitled to get credit for Motherhood work, or should she be denied credit for such by greedy folks who run a company who does punish them to save a buck? It really has nothing to do with doing less work, but greed.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:04 am

Read it and weep, it’s not greed, it’s different choices by men and women.

Even in a unionized environment where work tasks are similar, hourly wages are identical, and tenure dictates promotions, female workers earn $0.89 on the male-worker dollar (weekly earnings). We use confidential administrative data on bus and train operators from the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (MBTA) to show that the weekly earnings gap can be explained by the workplace choices that women and men make. Women value time away from work and flexibility more than men, taking more unpaid time off using the Family Medical Leave Act (FMLA) and working fewer overtime hours than men. When overtime hours are scheduled three months in advance, men and women work a similar number of hours; but when those hours are offered at the last minute, men work nearly twice as many. When selecting work schedules, women try to avoid weekend, holiday, and split shifts more than men. To avoid unfavorable work times, women prioritize their schedules over route safety and select routes with a higher probability of accidents. Women are less likely than men to game the scheduling system by trading off work hours at regular wages for overtime hours at premium wages. These results suggest that some policies that increase workplace flexibility, like shift swapping and expanded cover lists, can reduce the gender earnings gap and disproportionately increase the well-being of female workers.


https://scholar.harvard.edu/bolotnyy/publications/why-do-women-earn-less-men-evidence-bus-and-train-operators-job-market-paper
 
Airstud
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:04 am

WarRI1 wrote:
I guess you will never understand how it feels to take time off to start a family, give birth, and after you have done your Motherhood duties to a point where you feel able to Mother and raise a child or children and return to work for a living, you find that you are punished for doing your duty as nature intended. Is she as a new Mother not entitled to get credit for Motherhood work, or should she be denied credit for such by greedy folks who run a company who does punish them to save a buck? It really has nothing to do with doing less work, but greed.


"Punished?"

It's about paying a market wage for the skills and experience the candidate brings to a job. Nobody brings value to a company by just having kids.
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WarRI1
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:34 am

EMPLOYMENT AND HEALTH BENEFITS PROTECTION
(a) Upon the expiration of parental leave or family leave an
employee shall be entitled to be restored by the employer to
the position held by the employee when the leave commenced,
or to a position with equivalent seniority, status,
employment benefits, pay and other related terms and
conditions of employment, including fringe benefits and
service credits that the employee had been entitled to at
the commencement of leave.
(b) During any period of parental or family leave the employer
shall maintain any existing health benefits of the employee
in force for the duration of such leave as if the employee
had continued in employment continuously from the date he
or she commenced such leave until the date he or she
returns to employment. The maintenance of health benefits
shall be governed by R.I.G.L. 28-48-3.
(c) An employee on parental leave or family leave shall not
suffer the loss of any benefit accrued before the date on
which the leave commenced, nor shall any employee who takes
parental leave or family leave be entitled to any benefit
other than benefits to which the employee would have been
entitled had he or she not taken the leave.


Rhode island law pertaining to Maternity leave
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Airstud
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:55 am

WarRI1 wrote:
EMPLOYMENT AND HEALTH BENEFITS PROTECTION
(a) Upon the expiration of parental leave or family leave an
employee shall be entitled to be restored by the employer to
the position held by the employee when the leave commenced,
or to a position with equivalent seniority, status,
employment benefits, pay and other related terms and
conditions of employment, including fringe benefits and
service credits that the employee had been entitled to at
the commencement of leave.
(b) During any period of parental or family leave the employer
shall maintain any existing health benefits of the employee
in force for the duration of such leave as if the employee
had continued in employment continuously from the date he
or she commenced such leave until the date he or she
returns to employment. The maintenance of health benefits
shall be governed by R.I.G.L. 28-48-3.
(c) An employee on parental leave or family leave shall not
suffer the loss of any benefit accrued before the date on
which the leave commenced, nor shall any employee who takes
parental leave or family leave be entitled to any benefit
other than benefits to which the employee would have been
entitled had he or she not taken the leave.


Rhode island law pertaining to Maternity leave


You're making my point for me - it says the employee's position shall be the same as when the leave commenced - not the same as it would be, as in pay raised commensurate with experience and value of work contributed, if the employee hadn't taken leave.
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WarRI1
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:09 am

Be that as it may, just showing the actual law. What you went out with you maintain. That was my point, nothing can be taken away because of absence from job under the law here. You are arguing what, a projection of earnings, not actual?
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stratclub
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:43 am

Well If woman make the same commitment to their career as men do than they should be offered the same wage if their job performance is the same. Oh Boo hoo, I decided to compromise my career to reproduce and the job market should pay the difference. Complete nonsense.

Seriously we need to stop pretending that men and woman are equal. They are not. How can they be when their motivations in life are different? The good news is that some woman are narrowing the gap by actually taking their carriers seriously instead of expecting a handout because they are woman.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:39 am

WarRI1 wrote:
Be that as it may, just showing the actual law. What you went out with you maintain. That was my point, nothing can be taken away because of absence from job under the law here. You are arguing what, a projection of earnings, not actual?


Yeah, and the law says that, if you take a total of 6 years off to raise your children, once you are done you end up with the pay of someone 6 years junior to you, that didn´t.

WarRI1 wrote:
I guess you will never understand how it feels to take time off to start a family, give birth, and after you have done your Motherhood duties to a point where you feel able to Mother and raise a child or children and return to work for a living, .


There is nothing stopping a woman from coming back to work after giving birth in a rather short time other than choosing not to, or a bad choice of partner to have a child with.

Airstud wrote:
What exactly are they trying to say when they couch this as "illustrating the actual experience of women?" The article says that the so-called "gender pay gap" is "worse" than previously thought. But I don't get why I'm supposed to buy that when they're admittedly talking about women who've actually done less work.:


Surprisingly some "feminists" seemingly want define being a woman has a handicap that needs compensation.

Women largely make less because society as a whole doesn´t expect them to make a lot of money. That is slowly changing, but as long as in the real world her income often is extra income for the family, low income families aside, and his income is the financial foundation, women will earn less.

After all, we all make whatever the hell we agreed to in our contract negotiations. The "Gender pay gab" will disappear once women start saying "no" to job offers being paid less. Governments can only legislate that you can not systematically wage discriminate, and eliminate effects of family related breaks (i.e. top up pension as if they had worked constantly),but everyone has to negotiate themselves.

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DeltaMD90
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:53 am

That's what bothers me about the wage gap arguments. It is simplified to the point of absurdity, ignoring actual reasons why it is there.

Every time I hear the argument, I really try and find examples of men getting paid for women for the same positions. Usually I will get high competition corporate jobs that involve a lot of negotiation for salaries, sports (sue me, but of course most women's sports are in less demand and for most sports it has to do with biology,) or movie roles (usually comparing a female mainish character with a male main character that's a way bigger star.) Sprinkled in, sometimes, are one-off cases of real sexists paying women less.

No.

The issues are career choices (what women choose to go into, which seems to be improving, and young girls could definitely be encouraged to go into the high paying jobs more) and having kids. I'm not sure how you solve this one, or if it even needs to be solved. Biology is big here, let's face it, a lot of women are going to want to drop out of the workforce to become mothers. My wife was way happier than I thought to ditch her full time job and focus on the baby. For professional women, no one is forcing you to have kids and drop out of the work force. The time before and after birth is obviously going to need to be taken off, and I don't think most employers would mind it if it's a few months. But from there, you either need to have a stay at home partner, get a lot of child care... or... choose to be the child caretaker and accept the trade-off in the career.

Worthy topics for sure. But it's definitely not "omg all these sexists illegally paying women less for the exact same everything." Let's be honest here
 
seb146
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:53 am

And when women make the choice to not start a family, they are deamonized and hated and told they are not allowed any assistance to not have a family when they do not want a family. Men make these decisions, BTW.
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Airstud
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:56 am

seb146 wrote:
And when women make the choice to not start a family, they are deamonized and hated and told they are not allowed any assistance to not have a family when they do not want a family. Men make these decisions, BTW.


Document, please.
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:58 am

seb146 wrote:
And when women make the choice to not start a family, they are deamonized and hated and told they are not allowed any assistance to not have a family when they do not want a family. Men make these decisions, BTW.

This is definitely a problem, but nothing is forced upon them. It's not like they refuse to have kids and are thrown into the streets and unemployable.

They of course may be looked down upon (wrong) and have less compatible partners (not wrong, it's a guy's personal preference, can't fault a guy wanting a career and a wife as a mother marrying a woman that doesn't want a job and to be a mother), but we aren't in Afghanistan or something and forced into motherhood. Arguably they may be through socialization, which is strong, but that's a stretch

Airstud wrote:
Document, please.

Lol, prepare for no documentation and a lot of ranting
 
seb146
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:05 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
And when women make the choice to not start a family, they are deamonized and hated and told they are not allowed any assistance to not have a family when they do not want a family. Men make these decisions, BTW.

This is definitely a problem, but nothing is forced upon them. It's not like they refuse to have kids and are thrown into the streets and unemployable.


Look at how many companies and states refuse to pay for birth control pills and abortions in the case of rape. That is what I am talking about.
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:21 am

seb146 wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
And when women make the choice to not start a family, they are deamonized and hated and told they are not allowed any assistance to not have a family when they do not want a family. Men make these decisions, BTW.

This is definitely a problem, but nothing is forced upon them. It's not like they refuse to have kids and are thrown into the streets and unemployable.


Look at how many companies and states refuse to pay for birth control pills and abortions in the case of rape. That is what I am talking about.

Oh. You clicked on the gender pay gap thread not "should companies pay for birth control and rape abortions thread"
 
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Aesma
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:30 am

Some choices are not really choices. Women who push back having children for their careers discover getting pregnant later is much more difficult (and expensive) and there are more risks for mother and child.

I don't have a family yet, but my idea is that who does what in the couple should be planned in advance, and if needed, one partner should compensate the other financially.

At the same time in the US women (usually) can become filthy rich just by marrying and divorcing, with no real work involved, I find that ridiculous, and does indeed increase the perceived differences between genders.

I don't believe measures taken to reduce the gender gap really hurt companies. If anything they might realize they pay too much for some men because they're better at getting paid more, not better at their jobs !
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seb146
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:44 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
This is definitely a problem, but nothing is forced upon them. It's not like they refuse to have kids and are thrown into the streets and unemployable.


Look at how many companies and states refuse to pay for birth control pills and abortions in the case of rape. That is what I am talking about.

Oh. You clicked on the gender pay gap thread not "should companies pay for birth control and rape abortions thread"


"...women make life choices..." is about birth control. Women "make choices" and are paid less. They take a year off to raise their child. SOME companies see that as a liability. "How can we rely on this woman when she will just go get pregnant but we are not going to pay for birth control". They fit together.

Maybe reports should take that year or two or three out and see how pay works out? If the average woman has, say, three kids, take 15 years off (five years for each child) and average out the pay.
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:39 pm

Aesma wrote:
At the same time in the US women (usually) can become filthy rich just by marrying and divorcing, with no real work involved, I find that ridiculous, and does indeed increase the perceived differences between genders.
!


I personally know someone who is young in their career, married with a couple kids. His wife is in med school right now. He's been very supportive despite the long hours she spends studying and doing residency. She's decided she wants a divorce now. He has to pay Spousal support until she is fully employed or re-marries. She also gets half of his 401k.

Here's the rub, he's been helping pay for her schooling all this time. Do you think he's going to see a dime of any of that back? Not a chance.

On the gender pay gap. My wife and I have had two kids. Both times my wife took off 6 to 8 weeks (which was paid time off via short term disability payments) and returned to work afterwards. She makes as much or more than her peers with equal experience in an engineering field. I myself took off a couple months for my second one as I was in between contracts and thought it'd be nice to spend some time with my wife and newborn. I was not paid for that time as I'm self-employed. I know some folks don't have the luxury of being able to do that so its not really anything to brag about.

Point is, you'll always be able to manipulate the data and find anecdotal evidence to support you're point of view in this.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:07 pm

I actually laugh at many of the comments here, particularly about how women make the choice to have children and as such pay the price. I'm always baffled at how Americans treat women (especially at the state level).

We encourage women to get married before having kids (heck, procreation was the defense of many state AGs as the reason to ban SSM) but don't want to provide birth control or abortion. We shame her for even considering terminating a pregnancy so we force her to carry the fetus to term and once it's born, we don't supply her with what she needs to raise a kid. Leave? Do it on your own time. WIC? You moocher! Decent salary? Well, you're high risk because you stay home to take care of children. Baby/you are sick? Maybe you shouldn't have had that baby we forced you to carry and wanted to have for a prosperous society.
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slider
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:19 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
I'm always baffled at how Americans treat women (especially at the state level).


Yeah, it's really deplorable.

Women get preferential treatment for college admissions, tuition discounting (even though they are a majority population in higher education now), have a 100% placement rate in STEM fields because vagina, and they statistically take more sick time than men (not even close, actually).

So tell me, how do we treat women?? They're fucking worshipped in this country. This mythology and demagoguery of the downtrodden working woman in America needs to stop.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:26 pm

slider wrote:
So tell me, how do we treat women?? They're fucking worshipped in this country. This mythology and demagoguery of the downtrodden working woman in America needs to stop.

Yet when they ask for maternity leave, it's up to the company to decide (even though the state loves what comes out of that vagina during birth), still don't make as much as men for the same job and skill level (on average), and old men (for the most part) legislate what she can and can't do.

Seems like a strange worship to me.
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slider
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:38 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
slider wrote:
So tell me, how do we treat women?? They're fucking worshipped in this country. This mythology and demagoguery of the downtrodden working woman in America needs to stop.

Yet when they ask for maternity leave, it's up to the company to decide (even though the state loves what comes out of that vagina during birth), still don't make as much as men for the same job and skill level (on average), and old men (for the most part) legislate what she can and can't do.

Seems like a strange worship to me.


The marketplace speaks loudly. I'd like some documentation on what companies, specifically, don't offer maternity leave. Because it seems to me that most companies now are offering paternity leave as well.

Again, this wage gap stuff is a bunch of nonsense for a host of reasons. It's been debunked so ffrequently and fervently that it's laughable that some people still parrot this, as if the earth if flat. Wage discrepancies do not take into account different job positions, hours worked or different jobs. It has nothing to do with the same job. It has nothing to do with discrimination.

Men die sooner, they pay more in terms of taxes, take less out--in fact, men in the US pay nearly 60% more into Medicare and other state medical benefits programs despite women using services more. Women’s insurance premiums actually used to be higher to reflect that higher use of reosurce, but Obamacare forbade that. The result is that men are not (publicly and privately) essentially subsidizing women even further! Men pay far more into retirement and pension plans but die sooner (average American women live almost 5 years longer than men)

More than 90% of all OSHA recordable injuries and fatalities on the job are male--simply put, men do the dirty and dangerous jobs and pay generally reflects that. When you factor in higher educational costs and all the other financial penalties for having a penis, it can be over 10% more expensive to be a man.

Women also go into--broadly speaking--lower paying professions.

"The official Bureau of Labor Department statistics show that the median earnings of full-time female workers is 77 percent of the median earnings of full-time male workers. But that is very different than “77 cents on the dollar for doing the same work as men.” The latter gives the impression that a man and a woman standing next to each other doing the same job for the same number of hours get paid different salaries. That’s not at all the case. “Full time” officially means 35 hours, but men work more hours than women. That’s the first problem: We could be comparing men working 40 hours to women working 35."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -life.html

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Redd
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:44 pm

The study is so vague it's not even funny. Are they writing about salary gaps or wage gaps, are they speaking about unskilled labor or skilled, blue collar or white collar, are the comparing identical positions with comparable experience? Has to be one of the worst written article on the topic I've yet read.
 
Redd
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:50 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
slider wrote:
So tell me, how do we treat women?? They're fucking worshipped in this country. This mythology and demagoguery of the downtrodden working woman in America needs to stop.

Yet when they ask for maternity leave, it's up to the company to decide (even though the state loves what comes out of that vagina during birth), still don't make as much as men for the same job and skill level (on average), and old men (for the most part) legislate what she can and can't do.

Seems like a strange worship to me.

Um, yeah.. That is just not true. There is an average salary gap but there are many factors as to why. But.....There is practically no wage gap at all when it comes to same company, same position, same function and same experience, and still even then it usually comes down to women having statistically lesser negotiation skills as compared to men.

Image

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detai ... -same-work

The actual salary gap disparity comes mostly from comparing unskilled labour jobs. Where-as most jobs such as roofing, construction, window washers, mining, oil work are in the vast majority worked by men, and are much better paying than cashiers, nail salons, maids etc....

96% of all workplace deaths are, wait for it.... MEN. So if you think a cashier deserves the same pay as working on an oil platform then you need to try working both jobs yourself. Women are of course free to get into any of these dangerous and higher paying professions. But do they or will they? Not in any significant numbers. They just don't want to.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:10 pm

Redd wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
slider wrote:
So tell me, how do we treat women?? They're fucking worshipped in this country. This mythology and demagoguery of the downtrodden working woman in America needs to stop.

Yet when they ask for maternity leave, it's up to the company to decide (even though the state loves what comes out of that vagina during birth), still don't make as much as men for the same job and skill level (on average), and old men (for the most part) legislate what she can and can't do.

Seems like a strange worship to me.

Um, yeah.. That is just not true. There is an average salary gap but there are many factors as to why. But.....There is practically no wage gap at all when it comes to same company, same position, same function and same experience, and still even then it usually comes down to women having statistically lesser negotiation skills as compared to men.

Image

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detai ... -same-work

The actual salary gap disparity comes mostly from comparing unskilled labour jobs. Where-as most jobs such as roofing, construction, window washers, mining, oil work are in the vast majority worked by men, and are much better paying than cashiers, nail salons, maids etc....

96% of all workplace deaths are, wait for it.... MEN. So if you think a cashier deserves the same pay as working on an oil platform then you need to try working both jobs yourself. Women are of course free to get into any of these dangerous and higher paying professions. But do they or will they? NO



But what is the age difference at the same job level function and experience?

The issue is a timeless one . In a world where women are forced to bear the expenses of being a woman, child care, menstrual cycles, and taking care of children, where is the compensation for those expenses?
It is not just a child care issue, as dad's can stay home too, but women can have children without men, and deadbeats don't always pay up or show up, so single mothers have to take days when the kids are sick or suspended.
Their are many medical costs that women incur just for being a woman. Tampons, gynecologists, pads and birth.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
Redd
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:30 pm

casinterest wrote:
Redd wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Yet when they ask for maternity leave, it's up to the company to decide (even though the state loves what comes out of that vagina during birth), still don't make as much as men for the same job and skill level (on average), and old men (for the most part) legislate what she can and can't do.

Seems like a strange worship to me.

Um, yeah.. That is just not true. There is an average salary gap but there are many factors as to why. But.....There is practically no wage gap at all when it comes to same company, same position, same function and same experience, and still even then it usually comes down to women having statistically lesser negotiation skills as compared to men.

Image

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detai ... -same-work

The actual salary gap disparity comes mostly from comparing unskilled labour jobs. Where-as most jobs such as roofing, construction, window washers, mining, oil work are in the vast majority worked by men, and are much better paying than cashiers, nail salons, maids etc....

96% of all workplace deaths are, wait for it.... MEN. So if you think a cashier deserves the same pay as working on an oil platform then you need to try working both jobs yourself. Women are of course free to get into any of these dangerous and higher paying professions. But do they or will they? NO



But what is the age difference at the same job level function and experience?

The issue is a timeless one . In a world where women are forced to bear the expenses of being a woman, child care, menstrual cycles, and taking care of children, where is the compensation for those expenses?
It is not just a child care issue, as dad's can stay home too, but women can have children without men, and deadbeats don't always pay up or show up, so single mothers have to take days when the kids are sick or suspended.
Their are many medical costs that women incur just for being a woman. Tampons, gynecologists, pads and birth.


Compensation for menstrual cycles etc, is an interesting argument but men have health issues such as prostate etc, which does not affect women. It would be hard to come up with statistics to find out which gender has more expensive medical costs on average. I haven't even considered that before.

As for childcare, please don't generalize about women, child care and dead beats dads. Men play an equal role in modern society in raising kids and men aren't nearly as EVIL as society makes them out to be. I'll share a quick story with you. I'm a victim of paternity fraud, which means my ex told me 4 years ago when she became pregnant that it is with my child. We weren't together at the time. I moved in with her, supported the household 100% financially for over 3 years until we broke up and then she told me that I wasn't the father and she'd been lying to me from the start. I had a DNA test done and went to court to remove my name from my daughters birth certificate and free myself from the obligation of paying child support (I still wanted to obtain legal guardian status and agreed to pay daycare, medical, clothing etc, as I still wanted to have regular contact with my 'daughter') But the court ruled, even with the DNA test results, that it's in the best interest of the child that I legally remain the father and pay child support.

So I was lied to, screwed over, defrauded, ended up on the verge of suicide but I still have to pay for a child that is not mine until she is 18. Not to mention that I love my daughter to death and can barely ever see her as the court awarded full custody to the unemployed mother with visitation up to the discretion of the mother. I won't even mention the legal costs I had to bear which I can never hope to recoup.

My story is not uncommon, it's ridiculously common. Men also have no family law rights in just about every country. In France it's a criminal act punishable with 3 years in prison if the father checks the paternity of his child without the mothers permission.So in other words, a woman can name any man she's slept with as the father. And who do they usually choose? The one with the most money. That's what happened to me.

Getting back on topic, you also forget when it comes to medical problems, men live significantly shorter lives than women, and in just about every country are required to work 5-7 years longer before they are entitled to retirement.

So do I think women are disadvantaged? In some areas yes, but I believe in equal opportunity not guarantee of outcome.
Last edited by Redd on Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Flighty
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:38 pm

Rather than focusing on the pay, we should focus on what is earned. Men and women do different tasks in life. Whether by mutual agreement (as I tend to think), or something more sinister. I would never suggest that men and women have such different abilities that they CANNOT do the same job. But they DO not.

If women are earning 49c for every dollar a man earns, is that fair to the men? Are we saying women earn a dollar but are paid only 49c, because of illegal pay issues? What are we saying (my guess? we are saying nothing).
 
tommy1808
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:41 pm

Redd wrote:
and in just about every country are required to work 5-7 years longer before they are entitled to retirement.
.


I think that "just about every country" is a rather gross overstatement. Could be a majority though, I didn't count. I also noticed several countries being in the process of rolling it back.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement_age

That being said, retirement age should by dependent on the kind of work, I have an office job and can probably easily work well into my 70s for example, and be tied to the expected average life time as a retiree relative to the years worked. At home times to raise children can be added as work years, at least to the point where free day care (school or kindergarten, if foc) is available.

Best regards
Thomas
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:07 pm

slider wrote:
Women also go into--broadly speaking--lower paying professions.


Heh. I see what you did there. ..

einsteinboricua wrote:
Yet when they ask for maternity leave, it's up to the company to decide ...


What? No. Companies are regulated by state guidelines in this matter and have little discretion, as well should be the case.

If a woman needs maternity leave, she will get it without jeopardy of dismissal.

The rest of this is hard to care about.
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tommy1808
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:19 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
If a woman needs maternity leave, she will get it without jeopardy of dismissal.


Which is why you can count the countries without it with your fingers. And I am talking about paid maternity leave, not just leave without jeopardy of dismissal.

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Thomas
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PPVRA
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:38 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
Be that as it may, just showing the actual law. What you went out with you maintain. That was my point, nothing can be taken away because of absence from job under the law here. You are arguing what, a projection of earnings, not actual?


Yeah, and the law says that, if you take a total of 6 years off to raise your children, once you are done you end up with the pay of someone 6 years junior to you, that didn´t.


Which is totally justifiable because she lost 6 years of experience and in fact, probably lost some knowledge/skill because she was out of that line of work for 6 years.

The idea that one should look at this based on age rather than skill level, experience, and recency of that experience, among a myriad of other factors, makes no sense.

This study stinks of some greedy know-nothing person playing around with numbers trying to make a name for themselves.
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trpmb6
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:47 pm

If I could hire someone to do my job for me at 75 cents on the dollar, or less, I would do so in a heart beat and pocket the difference (hell might even offer my clients a discount to remain more competitive and get more business). Fact is I can't do that.

We're heading more and more towards hiring based solely on the resume and skill tests and years of experience. Which on the surface sounds excellent, but in practice, doesn't always work out well for the company. Personalities are a big factor, imo, in the performance of employees. Determining how they will interact with your existing team is important. However, for determining pay, it should really be solely based on your resume, skills and years of experience.

Pretty sure most HR departments these days have a ton of market data and charts that say "employee with X years of experience should be paid Y +- Z dollars where Z is a number management can tweek based on specific skill sets needed or proffered by the employee as relevant." I know I've seen this at a couple of the bigger companies I've worked for.
 
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:50 pm

PPVRA wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
Be that as it may, just showing the actual law. What you went out with you maintain. That was my point, nothing can be taken away because of absence from job under the law here. You are arguing what, a projection of earnings, not actual?


Yeah, and the law says that, if you take a total of 6 years off to raise your children, once you are done you end up with the pay of someone 6 years junior to you, that didn´t.


Which is totally justifiable because she lost 6 years of experience and in fact, probably lost some knowledge/skill because she was out of that line of work for 6 years.


Exactly.

This study stinks of some greedy know-nothing person playing around with numbers trying to make a name for themselves.


The study is much more nuanced than the click-baity reporting about it. Policy recommendations are towards getting women into male dominated (=often higher paying) professions and increasing their lifetime labour participation.

Best regards
Thomas
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PPVRA
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:03 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:



The study is much more nuanced than the click-baity reporting about it. Policy recommendations are towards getting women into male dominated (=often higher paying) professions and increasing their lifetime labour participation.

Best regards
Thomas


Be careful with that, too. Take IT/programming as an example. That field evolves so fast that if you take as little as a year sabbatical, you’re much less desirable as an employee. Two years and you’re likely not gonna find a job. Six? Yikes... that’s ages when talking that industry.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:58 pm

Apparently, some would wish to deny or, at least, ignore the “facts of life”. Sorry, that’s not possible, men and women are different.

GF
 
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Aesma
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:25 pm

Redd wrote:
I legally remain the father and pay child support.


Sad story. You wanted to keep some rights so that might have played a role in the outcome ?

Redd wrote:
In France it's a criminal act punishable with 3 years in prison if the father checks the paternity of his child without the mothers permission.So in other words, a woman can name any man she's slept with as the father.


It's true, but nobody has ever ended up in jail for this. And the father can get the paternity revoked, and sue the mother for damages. It's long and complicated but will happen (at least the paternity revocation part, the mother can always claim good faith and get away with the fraud I'm guessing).

DNA tests in general are pretty much illegal in France, so it's not just paternity issues. Only medical researchers/doctors and authorities can do DNA tests.
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Aesma
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:30 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Pretty sure most HR departments these days have a ton of market data and charts that say "employee with X years of experience should be paid Y +- Z dollars where Z is a number management can tweek based on specific skill sets needed or proffered by the employee as relevant." I know I've seen this at a couple of the bigger companies I've worked for.


I've heard someone in that field (selling the software that does it) say they can predict who will leave the company in the next year if they're not promoted/paid better !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
apodino
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:55 pm

What makes me kind of sad is the fact that law after law has been passed by congress to address this issue and it has made barely a dent. Obama touted the Lily Leadbetter Fair Pay Act, and Hillary touted the paycheck fairness act, but this issue still exists. I am not convinced that passing laws is the way to affect change here. I will take a look at the aviation industry since that is mainly peoples interest. Here is what I see. Even though the pilot profession is a good paying job, less than 5 percent of all pilots are Women. Even though airlines have made great efforts to try to change this for some reason we can not get enough women interested in the Pilot profession. But the flight attendant profession has no problems here.

In the dispatch profession, which is another high paying profession, I estimate only about 20 percent of the dispatchers nationwide are women. Again, its an area we have difficulty attracting women to. In my 15 years in the industry, I have seen maybe 3 or 4 female mechanics. Again, a good paying job, but it doesn't attract women.

The point I am trying to make is if we want to close the pay gap, we need to get women interested in lot of these high paying careers. I dont know how this should be done, but it needs to be done. And I suspect the reason its not done is because it would actually solve the problem. If a problem is solved, politicians cant run on fixing it.
 
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EstherLouise
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:31 pm

I'm a retired healthcare professional. I worked constantly and did overtime. I never took vacations. My fellow female workers, many of whom started well before me, but working part time, initially made more than me. But, they took time off for families, classes, and used up their PTO (and asked for more unpaid time off). I just worked what was assigned and rolled over my PTO (vacation, sick times, holidays, etc.). Soon enough, I was making more than the females.
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:42 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
I actually laugh at many of the comments here, particularly about how women make the choice to have children and as such pay the price. I'm always baffled at how Americans treat women (especially at the state level).

We encourage women to get married before having kids (heck, procreation was the defense of many state AGs as the reason to ban SSM) but don't want to provide birth control or abortion. We shame her for even considering terminating a pregnancy so we force her to carry the fetus to term and once it's born, we don't supply her with what she needs to raise a kid. Leave? Do it on your own time. WIC? You moocher! Decent salary? Well, you're high risk because you stay home to take care of children. Baby/you are sick? Maybe you shouldn't have had that baby we forced you to carry and wanted to have for a prosperous society.

I agree with many of your points, however, companies shouldn't be forced to take back any person and promote them/pay them the wages they would've made (male or female) after they spent years out taking care of kids.

Yes some of it is unfair socialization, but a lot of it is biology. If a working woman has a kid and the dad leaves the company for 6 years to take care of the kid, I also don't think he should be able to stroll back in and get a 6 year bump in pay either.

Sorry, you were out of the work force, experience is not just a random social construct. I'm all for empowering women, encouraging them to go into STEM, have more stay-at-home dads if they so choose, etc, but at the end of the day, don't have kids and drop out of the work force if you don't want to get behind. There is temporary maternity leave, and then there are years long absences
 
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Berevoff
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:59 am

I'll bet a dollar (or 78 cents if you're a woman) that everyone in this thread is a man.
 
Airstud
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:14 am

Berevoff wrote:
I'll bet a dollar (or 78 cents if you're a woman) that everyone in this thread is a man.



EstherLouise wrote:
My fellow female workers
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:12 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
I agree with many of your points, however, companies shouldn't be forced to take back any person and promote them/pay them the wages they would've made (male or female) after they spent years out taking care of kids.

Yes some of it is unfair socialization, but a lot of it is biology. If a working woman has a kid and the dad leaves the company for 6 years to take care of the kid, I also don't think he should be able to stroll back in and get a 6 year bump in pay either.

Sorry, you were out of the work force, experience is not just a random social construct. I'm all for empowering women, encouraging them to go into STEM, have more stay-at-home dads if they so choose, etc, but at the end of the day, don't have kids and drop out of the work force if you don't want to get behind. There is temporary maternity leave, and then there are years long absences

That's different. I'm talking about a family leave that's less than a year long (let's say 6 months at most), and one that could allow you to work from home after a while.

Just like taking a sabbatical, if you leave the workforce for a prolonged period of time (whether under your control or not), you can't seriously be expected to return with the raises that you would have otherwise gotten. As a consequence, your salary and experience will be off from your peers'. I wholeheartedly agree and support that. However, options should be allowed in the first place. First and foremost, family leave (paternity/maternity) which is likely to be the most common form of leave to be used. You shouldn't have to use vacation/sick leave/PTO (assuming you have any left after going to doctors and getting ready for delivery) to take care of a baby during its first few months. My company only recently introduced 3 weeks of family leave; before then, you had to bank as much vacation and sick leave and after the baby was born, you'd have to use whatever you had left (women, in particular, were the hardest hit because after doctor visits and sick days, they would be left with barely a week of PTO). It's a good start but it can go further. Six months is a good maximum to have taken care of a baby without sacrificing PTO or work experience.
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:23 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
I agree with many of your points, however, companies shouldn't be forced to take back any person and promote them/pay them the wages they would've made (male or female) after they spent years out taking care of kids.

Yes some of it is unfair socialization, but a lot of it is biology. If a working woman has a kid and the dad leaves the company for 6 years to take care of the kid, I also don't think he should be able to stroll back in and get a 6 year bump in pay either.

Sorry, you were out of the work force, experience is not just a random social construct. I'm all for empowering women, encouraging them to go into STEM, have more stay-at-home dads if they so choose, etc, but at the end of the day, don't have kids and drop out of the work force if you don't want to get behind. There is temporary maternity leave, and then there are years long absences

That's different. I'm talking about a family leave that's less than a year long (let's say 6 months at most), and one that could allow you to work from home after a while.

Just like taking a sabbatical, if you leave the workforce for a prolonged period of time (whether under your control or not), you can't seriously be expected to return with the raises that you would have otherwise gotten. As a consequence, your salary and experience will be off from your peers'. I wholeheartedly agree and support that. However, options should be allowed in the first place. First and foremost, family leave (paternity/maternity) which is likely to be the most common form of leave to be used. You shouldn't have to use vacation/sick leave/PTO (assuming you have any left after going to doctors and getting ready for delivery) to take care of a baby during its first few months. My company only recently introduced 3 weeks of family leave; before then, you had to bank as much vacation and sick leave and after the baby was born, you'd have to use whatever you had left (women, in particular, were the hardest hit because after doctor visits and sick days, they would be left with barely a week of PTO). It's a good start but it can go further. Six months is a good maximum to have taken care of a baby without sacrificing PTO or work experience.

Gotcha. That makes sense. While men are just as capable of staying home and raising the baby (even if it's rarer,) men cannot be pregnant and give birth. I think it's more than reasonable to give women ± however long from birth simply from the top of pregnancy. I'm for equality but this is simply impossible for men to do.

Having the non-pregnant partner get some time off (maybe the same amount but probably less) is also reasonable IMO

Don't think that's too much to ask of a company. But after the maternity leave, the choice is up to you: take care of the baby and accept falling behind in the workplace, have your partner take care of the baby and accept the partner falling behind in the workplace, or both work and get childcare

Love being in violent agreement with ya my friend ;)
 
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DL717
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:41 am

Women have babies and take more time off. The end.
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casinterest
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:26 am

DL717 wrote:
Women have babies and take more time off. The end.


It is not the end. It is the beginning of more people. There is value in that for all of us that spend time with our mothers. Should society not value that skill in nurture vs neglect for a job ?
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tommy1808
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:38 am

Aesma wrote:
DNA tests in general are pretty much illegal in France, so it's not just paternity issues. Only medical researchers/doctors and authorities can do DNA tests.


so i could never have a french girlfriend... lol.
I would not ever sign off that a kid is mine without a DNA test. Once you accepted that, that is pretty much it.

DL717 wrote:
Women have babies and take more time off. The end.


While true, technically that would mean that whoever fathers the child has to pay 50% of her financial lifetime losses as compensation. It is either that or making sure that the effect of having babies and taking time of is neglect able

PPVRA wrote:
Be careful with that, too. Take IT/programming as an example. That field evolves so fast that if you take as little as a year sabbatical, you’re much less desirable as an employee. Two years and you’re likely not gonna find a job. Six? Yikes... that’s ages when talking that industry.
.

Got to say that is a pretty bogus argument. She is guaranteed to get her job back, nothing more. If she isn´t up to snuff you can fire her just like any other employee that isn´t, so she got plenty of incentive to stay current. Or she isn´t the employers problem for long. Getting fired from a job isn´t exactly good for your career, and consequently pay.

best regards
Thomas
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mad99
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:48 am

casinterest wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Women have babies and take more time off. The end.


It is not the end. It is the beginning of more people. There is value in that for all of us that spend time with our mothers. Should society not value that skill in nurture vs neglect for a job ?



It should be a minimum of a year off in my option.

My wife had a year off for each kid (not being paid for a couple of months).

The secretary here just had a year off with a couple of months not being paid.
 
slider
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:47 pm

apodino wrote:
What makes me kind of sad is the fact that law after law has been passed by congress to address this issue and it has made barely a dent. Obama touted the Lily Leadbetter Fair Pay Act, and Hillary touted the paycheck fairness act, but this issue still exists. I am not convinced that passing laws is the way to affect change here. I will take a look at the aviation industry since that is mainly peoples interest. Here is what I see. Even though the pilot profession is a good paying job, less than 5 percent of all pilots are Women. Even though airlines have made great efforts to try to change this for some reason we can not get enough women interested in the Pilot profession. But the flight attendant profession has no problems here.

In the dispatch profession, which is another high paying profession, I estimate only about 20 percent of the dispatchers nationwide are women. Again, its an area we have difficulty attracting women to. In my 15 years in the industry, I have seen maybe 3 or 4 female mechanics. Again, a good paying job, but it doesn't attract women.

The point I am trying to make is if we want to close the pay gap, we need to get women interested in lot of these high paying careers. I dont know how this should be done, but it needs to be done. And I suspect the reason its not done is because it would actually solve the problem. If a problem is solved, politicians cant run on fixing it.


This is an astute post and one with which I agree. Having been in aviation my entire life, I've seen that too. Now, I suppose I have a different perspective on it because I was surrounded by female pilots, engineers, etc, but your core point is correct that women don't always flock to these fields. There is an irony here, however, given that women generally do better at math than men, but don't go into those fields. Kind of a paradox of sorts.

But this state of things is something to remember when debunking the equal pay demagogues.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:55 pm

slider wrote:
apodino wrote:
What makes me kind of sad is the fact that law after law has been passed by congress to address this issue and it has made barely a dent. Obama touted the Lily Leadbetter Fair Pay Act, and Hillary touted the paycheck fairness act, but this issue still exists. I am not convinced that passing laws is the way to affect change here. I will take a look at the aviation industry since that is mainly peoples interest. Here is what I see. Even though the pilot profession is a good paying job, less than 5 percent of all pilots are Women. Even though airlines have made great efforts to try to change this for some reason we can not get enough women interested in the Pilot profession. But the flight attendant profession has no problems here.

In the dispatch profession, which is another high paying profession, I estimate only about 20 percent of the dispatchers nationwide are women. Again, its an area we have difficulty attracting women to. In my 15 years in the industry, I have seen maybe 3 or 4 female mechanics. Again, a good paying job, but it doesn't attract women.

The point I am trying to make is if we want to close the pay gap, we need to get women interested in lot of these high paying careers. I dont know how this should be done, but it needs to be done. And I suspect the reason its not done is because it would actually solve the problem. If a problem is solved, politicians cant run on fixing it.


This is an astute post and one with which I agree. Having been in aviation my entire life, I've seen that too. Now, I suppose I have a different perspective on it because I was surrounded by female pilots, engineers, etc, but your core point is correct that women don't always flock to these fields. There is an irony here, however, given that women generally do better at math than men, but don't go into those fields. Kind of a paradox of sorts.

But this state of things is something to remember when debunking the equal pay demagogues.


Personally (and I do believer there are a couple studies that put some weight behind this opinion), I believe the issue is rooted in biology. Women and men, like it or not, are wired slightly different. Men like to shape and mold things in the physical sense. Women like to shape and mold people. I think this is why we see more women enter the education and health care fields. I'm certainly not saying there isn't some traditional social norms associated with these roles - I certainly think those are a factor (and certainly a large factor). I'm saying its a significant portion of it.

I'll be honest, as an engineer, having meetings when its 9 dudes and one or two females is awkward. Just doesn't feel right because the population representation is off. I can only imagine how awkward it must feel for them sometimes.

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Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos