c933103
Posts: 2910
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:07 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
I guess you will never understand how it feels to take time off to start a family, give birth, and after you have done your Motherhood duties to a point where you feel able to Mother and raise a child or children and return to work for a living, you find that you are punished for doing your duty as nature intended. Is she as a new Mother not entitled to get credit for Motherhood work, or should she be denied credit for such by greedy folks who run a company who does punish them to save a buck? It really has nothing to do with doing less work, but greed.

Then shouldn't someone acting as mother be compensated by her other family members instead? After all having baby is a family matter not corporate matter.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9825
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:06 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
I actually laugh at many of the comments here, particularly about how women make the choice to have children and as such pay the price. I'm always baffled at how Americans treat women (especially at the state level).

We encourage women to get married before having kids (heck, procreation was the defense of many state AGs as the reason to ban SSM) but don't want to provide birth control or abortion. We shame her for even considering terminating a pregnancy so we force her to carry the fetus to term and once it's born, we don't supply her with what she needs to raise a kid. Leave? Do it on your own time. WIC? You moocher! Decent salary? Well, you're high risk because you stay home to take care of children. Baby/you are sick? Maybe you shouldn't have had that baby we forced you to carry and wanted to have for a prosperous society.

I agree with many of your points, however, companies shouldn't be forced to take back any person and promote them/pay them the wages they would've made (male or female) after they spent years out taking care of kids.

Yes some of it is unfair socialization, but a lot of it is biology. If a working woman has a kid and the dad leaves the company for 6 years to take care of the kid, I also don't think he should be able to stroll back in and get a 6 year bump in pay either.

Sorry, you were out of the work force, experience is not just a random social construct. I'm all for empowering women, encouraging them to go into STEM, have more stay-at-home dads if they so choose, etc, but at the end of the day, don't have kids and drop out of the work force if you don't want to get behind. There is temporary maternity leave, and then there are years long absences


Women already have more access to education (in the US) than do men. So, that's taken care of.

Hiring discrimination... illegal. Punishable. So that's pretty well taken care of.

The remaining factor? We SAY as a society that we want women to "follow their dreams," but then we proceed to judge women for making choices that we don't approve of. I say again that the 49c could be seen as an unfairness to men in society. Despite women's ability to earn at least 100 cents on the dollar, they earn 49 cents. Even though they live longer and are more educated. Is that okay?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9415
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:43 am

c933103 wrote:
After all having baby is a family matter not corporate matter.


That one department at your company is called "human resources". People having babies is very much in the corporate interest and there will be an optimum level of baby subsidies to create future consumers.
Nation states also have a vested interest in maintaining the numbers of tax payers, military age citizens and labour force.

For a family a child is a hobby, for states and cooperations it is a necessity.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Brick
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:08 am

So if you believe that women indeed do make significantly less than their male counterparts, then why isn't 100% of all new hiring only women? Wouldn't it make sense for a company to save money by only hiring women?
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man...
 
c933103
Posts: 2910
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:46 am

tommy1808 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
After all having baby is a family matter not corporate matter.


That one department at your company is called "human resources". People having babies is very much in the corporate interest and there will be an optimum level of baby subsidies to create future consumers.
Nation states also have a vested interest in maintaining the numbers of tax payers, military age citizens and labour force.

For a family a child is a hobby, for states and cooperations it is a necessity.

Best regards
Thomas

Why would that be a necessity to company, unless the company plan ti hire them after they become adult?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9415
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:48 am

c933103 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
After all having baby is a family matter not corporate matter.


That one department at your company is called "human resources". People having babies is very much in the corporate interest and there will be an optimum level of baby subsidies to create future consumers.
Nation states also have a vested interest in maintaining the numbers of tax payers, military age citizens and labour force.

For a family a child is a hobby, for states and cooperations it is a necessity.

Best regards
Thomas

Why would that be a necessity to company, unless the company plan ti hire them after they become adult?


They plan to sell to them too.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 11711
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:27 pm

Airstud wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
EMPLOYMENT AND HEALTH BENEFITS PROTECTION
(a) Upon the expiration of parental leave or family leave an
employee shall be entitled to be restored by the employer to
the position held by the employee when the leave commenced,
or to a position with equivalent seniority, status,
employment benefits, pay and other related terms and
conditions of employment, including fringe benefits and
service credits that the employee had been entitled to at
the commencement of leave.
(b) During any period of parental or family leave the employer
shall maintain any existing health benefits of the employee
in force for the duration of such leave as if the employee
had continued in employment continuously from the date he
or she commenced such leave until the date he or she
returns to employment. The maintenance of health benefits
shall be governed by R.I.G.L. 28-48-3.
(c) An employee on parental leave or family leave shall not
suffer the loss of any benefit accrued before the date on
which the leave commenced, nor shall any employee who takes
parental leave or family leave be entitled to any benefit
other than benefits to which the employee would have been
entitled had he or she not taken the leave.


Rhode island law pertaining to Maternity leave


You're making my point for me - it says the employee's position shall be the same as when the leave commenced - not the same as it would be, as in pay raised commensurate with experience and value of work contributed, if the employee hadn't taken leave.


In Norway both parents will receive payrises during parental leave, if they are on leave when the annual round of payrises occurs.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:35 pm

seb146 wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Look at how many companies and states refuse to pay for birth control pills and abortions in the case of rape. That is what I am talking about.

Oh. You clicked on the gender pay gap thread not "should companies pay for birth control and rape abortions thread"


"...women make life choices..." is about birth control. Women "make choices" and are paid less. They take a year off to raise their child. SOME companies see that as a liability. "How can we rely on this woman when she will just go get pregnant but we are not going to pay for birth control". They fit together.

Maybe reports should take that year or two or three out and see how pay works out? If the average woman has, say, three kids, take 15 years off (five years for each child) and average out the pay.


Birth control in the US isn’t free, how fucked up and backwards is that?????
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 1740
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:36 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Airstud wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
EMPLOYMENT AND HEALTH BENEFITS PROTECTION
(a) Upon the expiration of parental leave or family leave an
employee shall be entitled to be restored by the employer to
the position held by the employee when the leave commenced,
or to a position with equivalent seniority, status,
employment benefits, pay and other related terms and
conditions of employment, including fringe benefits and
service credits that the employee had been entitled to at
the commencement of leave.
(b) During any period of parental or family leave the employer
shall maintain any existing health benefits of the employee
in force for the duration of such leave as if the employee
had continued in employment continuously from the date he
or she commenced such leave until the date he or she
returns to employment. The maintenance of health benefits
shall be governed by R.I.G.L. 28-48-3.
(c) An employee on parental leave or family leave shall not
suffer the loss of any benefit accrued before the date on
which the leave commenced, nor shall any employee who takes
parental leave or family leave be entitled to any benefit
other than benefits to which the employee would have been
entitled had he or she not taken the leave.


Rhode island law pertaining to Maternity leave


You're making my point for me - it says the employee's position shall be the same as when the leave commenced - not the same as it would be, as in pay raised commensurate with experience and value of work contributed, if the employee hadn't taken leave.


In Norway both parents will receive payrises during parental leave, if they are on leave when the annual round of payrises occurs.


The collapse of child bearing, as we have in the West and many areas elsewhere, governments do need to incentivize child bearing.

GF
 
seat64k
Posts: 299
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:42 pm

PPVRA wrote:
Be careful with that, too. Take IT/programming as an example. That field evolves so fast that if you take as little as a year sabbatical, you’re much less desirable as an employee. Two years and you’re likely not gonna find a job. Six? Yikes... that’s ages when talking that industry.


This is an important observation. I spent two decades in tech roles, working like a demon, getting promoted, getting pay rises. Then moved slightly sideways into a role that was more consultative and less hands on. Three years of that, while keeping my existing skills warm, left me very far behind. Technologies that were so new that knowing it might get you hired in some fringe futuristic startup, are now required across the board. So much so that, I'm no looking at a 15-20% pay cut just to find employment.

Sure, there are fields where you can drop out, come back 3 years later and simply keep doing what you did. But many IT related fields are not that easy at all. Heck, in some fields burn-out is a common problem for people just trying to keep up with their fields while working full-time (infosec, for example).
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:13 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
Oh. You clicked on the gender pay gap thread not "should companies pay for birth control and rape abortions thread"


"...women make life choices..." is about birth control. Women "make choices" and are paid less. They take a year off to raise their child. SOME companies see that as a liability. "How can we rely on this woman when she will just go get pregnant but we are not going to pay for birth control". They fit together.

Maybe reports should take that year or two or three out and see how pay works out? If the average woman has, say, three kids, take 15 years off (five years for each child) and average out the pay.


Birth control in the US isn’t free, how fucked up and backwards is that?????


Why should it be “free”; should all medicines be “free”? Should condoms be “free”. Nothing is free, but generic contraceptives are very cheap and accessible. Generics are about $20 a month, a couple can’t afford that?
.

GF
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8419
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:18 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:

"...women make life choices..." is about birth control. Women "make choices" and are paid less. They take a year off to raise their child. SOME companies see that as a liability. "How can we rely on this woman when she will just go get pregnant but we are not going to pay for birth control". They fit together.

Maybe reports should take that year or two or three out and see how pay works out? If the average woman has, say, three kids, take 15 years off (five years for each child) and average out the pay.


Birth control in the US isn’t free, how fucked up and backwards is that?????


Why should it be “free”; should all medicines be “free”? Should condoms be “free”. Nothing is free, but generic contraceptives are very cheap and accessible. Generics are about $20 a month, a couple can’t afford that?
.

GF

Even in my more right wing days, I've supported free BC. People are absurdly irresponsible and bring new, unplanned lives into the world all the time (or kill them before birth.)

Would you rather pay for some BC or, potentially, welfare for a baby/child/teen? Well, kind of a false dichtomy, I'd pick "don't pay for it, have people be self reliant and more responsible with pregnancy," but I think that's kinda an unrealistic utopia

From a moral (for the unwanted kid) and fiscal standpoint, I don't see why free and encouraged BC isn't more supported by the right (religious objections aside, which I also found kinda a stretch but whatever)
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:18 am

Why are they “absurdly irresponsible”? Why because we have grown them to believe they won’t pay for the consequences of their irresponsibility. Make the world safe for folly and it will be populated with idiots.


GF
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:45 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Why are they “absurdly irresponsible”? Why because we have grown them to believe they won’t pay for the consequences of their irresponsibility. Make the world safe for folly and it will be populated with idiots.


GF

Hmm, ok, we'll call it what you want, I'd rather reduce the unwanted pregnancies to 0. The consequences of this irresponsibility is often another child on welfare or another abortion.

I think there are many times to say "tough luck, bud, learn from your mistake!" but having an unfortunate life created (and maybe destroyed) maybe shouldn't be the teaching point
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:32 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Why are they “absurdly irresponsible”? Why because we have grown them to believe they won’t pay for the consequences of their irresponsibility. Make the world safe for folly and it will be populated with idiots.

You've essentially proven my initial point about how society treats women in the social aspect of things.

No birth control. Unwanted pregnancy? Carry it to term, no abortion for you (it's a gift from God), no morning after pill (your pharmacist has the right to refuse it based on their 'sincerely held beliefs'), no healthcare/time off for you (and by the way, be sure to keep up with doctor visits because that baby better be born healthy or you'll be sued for negligence), and when the baby is born, no help for you or the baby (get a job you moocher, and don't let someone else raise it for you). And if you drop it off at an orphanage, we'll shame you for having gotten pregnant in the first place (regardless of the circumstances), and rest assured, the child may or may not be guaranteed optimal services.

Meanwhile, had the state allowed the woman to get (or subsidized) a Plan B pill or an abortion early on or mandated that healthcare for prenatal visits be covered, she might have been a more productive person from the get-go. Non-interference (from state or anyone else) and/or about $50 at most would help both a man and woman avoid an unwanted and unprepared pregnancy.

But sure...let them learn from their mistakes on their own while pretending to care for a baby while it's gestated but not after it's born.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:21 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
Meanwhile, had the state allowed the woman to get (or subsidized) a Plan B pill or an abortion early on or mandated that healthcare for prenatal visits be covered, she might have been a more productive person from the get-go.

Plan B is viewed by many as an abortion, but honestly, that only bolsters support for straight BC in the first place.


einsteinboricua wrote:
No birth control. Unwanted pregnancy? Carry it to term, no abortion for you (it's a gift from God), no morning after pill (your pharmacist has the right to refuse it based on their 'sincerely held beliefs'), no healthcare/time off for you (and by the way, be sure to keep up with doctor visits because that baby better be born healthy or you'll be sued for negligence), and when the baby is born, no help for you or the baby (get a job you moocher, and don't let someone else raise it for you). And if you drop it off at an orphanage, we'll shame you for having gotten pregnant in the first place (regardless of the circumstances), and rest assured, the child may or may not be guaranteed optimal services

It's a pretty harsh lesson for a woman to learn, but let's say for a second we play the whole "whelp, it was your fault, live with the consequences!" I guess you could argue that case if you wanted, but it completely ignores the innocent baby dragged into the mess

There are plenty of ways to have people learn lessons and not be coddled. I'd rather not have that lesson result in an unwanted baby or abortion, not to mention the fact that the baby will often grow up on welfare which I, GF, or really no one on this forum wants. It's not a stretch to argue that this is the most fiscally conservative thing to do (besides not paying for birth control and having no welfare and literally letting the baby starve which most people luckily view as unacceptable)
 
seb146
Posts: 18519
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:24 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Why are they “absurdly irresponsible”? Why because we have grown them to believe they won’t pay for the consequences of their irresponsibility. Make the world safe for folly and it will be populated with idiots.


GF


You are one of those Republicans who just assume that free birth control=24/7 unprotected sex. Not true at all, but thanks for playing!

You are one of those "if you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em" types, right? Okay, so let's give them access to not breeding them. I think that is a great idea! Condoms break, men rape, the heat of the moment, and so forth.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 11711
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:46 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Airstud wrote:

You're making my point for me - it says the employee's position shall be the same as when the leave commenced - not the same as it would be, as in pay raised commensurate with experience and value of work contributed, if the employee hadn't taken leave.


In Norway both parents will receive payrises during parental leave, if they are on leave when the annual round of payrises occurs.


The collapse of child bearing, as we have in the West and many areas elsewhere, governments do need to incentivize child bearing.

GF


Having children is incentivised in Norway, one of the main ways in incent women to have children is to ensure they are not held back in there careers due to having children.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 11711
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:49 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:

"...women make life choices..." is about birth control. Women "make choices" and are paid less. They take a year off to raise their child. SOME companies see that as a liability. "How can we rely on this woman when she will just go get pregnant but we are not going to pay for birth control". They fit together.

Maybe reports should take that year or two or three out and see how pay works out? If the average woman has, say, three kids, take 15 years off (five years for each child) and average out the pay.


Birth control in the US isn’t free, how fucked up and backwards is that?????


Why should it be “free”; should all medicines be “free”? Should condoms be “free”. Nothing is free, but generic contraceptives are very cheap and accessible. Generics are about $20 a month, a couple can’t afford that?
.

GF


You can't have your cake an eat it too, aren't you one of those folks who discourage single parent households? I.E. inner city black and hispanic women spitting out children to multiple baby daddy's, giving them free birth control would reduce the numbers of unwanted pregnancies significantly, it would probably also reduce the number of abortions annually, I'm sure even you would get on board with that?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 1740
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:33 pm

seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Why are they “absurdly irresponsible”? Why because we have grown them to believe they won’t pay for the consequences of their irresponsibility. Make the world safe for folly and it will be populated with idiots.


GF


You are one of those Republicans who just assume that free birth control=24/7 unprotected sex. Not true at all, but thanks for playing!

You are one of those "if you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em" types, right? Okay, so let's give them access to not breeding them. I think that is a great idea! Condoms break, men rape, the heat of the moment, and so forth.


Wrongl! I didn’t say that at all. The 24/7/365 sex is going to happen with or without any form of contraception—history is pretty clear about that fact. It takes two to tango and I don’t put it on the women. You’re the one charging birth control as a woman’s duty. What we’ve done is made feral men possible by breaking conventional behavior morals.

GF
 
seb146
Posts: 18519
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:32 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Why are they “absurdly irresponsible”? Why because we have grown them to believe they won’t pay for the consequences of their irresponsibility. Make the world safe for folly and it will be populated with idiots.


GF


You are one of those Republicans who just assume that free birth control=24/7 unprotected sex. Not true at all, but thanks for playing!

You are one of those "if you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em" types, right? Okay, so let's give them access to not breeding them. I think that is a great idea! Condoms break, men rape, the heat of the moment, and so forth.


Wrongl! I didn’t say that at all. The 24/7/365 sex is going to happen with or without any form of contraception—history is pretty clear about that fact. It takes two to tango and I don’t put it on the women. You’re the one charging birth control as a woman’s duty. What we’ve done is made feral men possible by breaking conventional behavior morals.

GF


Isn't that what incels and #metoo are about? Men who feel entitled to do whatever they want to a woman? Besides, my whole gripe is companies and large swaths of the voting public who refuse to pay for birth control, put it all on the women and then expect these women with unwanted children to care for the children with zero help from the government. Pick one. Either help keep women from getting pregnant or help pay for these children women never wanted in the first place.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:21 pm

seb146 wrote:
Besides, my whole gripe is companies and large swaths of the voting public who refuse to pay for birth control, put it all on the women and then expect these women with unwanted children to care for the children with zero help from the government. Pick one. Either help keep women from getting pregnant or help pay for these children women never wanted in the first place.


False dliemmas aren't a good way to win a debate.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8419
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:43 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
[False dliemmas aren't a good way to win a debate.

It technically is one, but in practice, I think they are the only two choices. You either:

1: provide birth control for free and have less unwanted pregnancies, or

2: don't provide it and often pay for the kids on welfare or have them aborted.

The other options I can think of are:

3: don't provide free birth control and through, idk, messaging and awareness and responsibility?, have them get their own birth control or abstain, and not pay for their kids since they weren't born

4: don't provide free birth control and don't provide for the kids when they're born (literally let them starve with no safety net.)

I'm pretty sure those two are unacceptable to just about everyone. What are the other realistic options? I'd love for it to be #3 but I don't see that ever happening unfortunately, and every screw up is an abortion or unplanned child
 
seb146
Posts: 18519
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:21 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Besides, my whole gripe is companies and large swaths of the voting public who refuse to pay for birth control, put it all on the women and then expect these women with unwanted children to care for the children with zero help from the government. Pick one. Either help keep women from getting pregnant or help pay for these children women never wanted in the first place.


False dliemmas aren't a good way to win a debate.


I am just repeating what I hear from the Republican morality police. I would love to see good and proper sexual education. Educating people on the different birth control methods available and make them available to whoever wants it. But, thanks to Republican morals, we can not have that. For some reason, Republicans are offended that women do not want children. Republicans are also offended when women get pregnant when they never wanted to get pregnant and Republicans are further offended when those women ask for assistance feeding, housing, clothing, educating, etc. a child they never wanted in the first place.

This is why women make less than men. They have to take any job that comes along, no matter how low the pay, and think they can provide for a child, wanted or not.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:50 pm

The simple truth to having children that grow to be educated, productive members of society is having two parents involved in their upbringing. Children raised by single mothers have lower education attainment, higher rates of substance abuse, higher rates of criminal behavior. We have stopped, even assaulted, this simple fact as being outdated.

Providing free contraception requires the women to actually be responsible in using them, at present low costs and other methods being available; we haven’t enforced responsibility. Fifty years after the pill became available, we have seen single motherhood go from rare to normal. Normalization of deviance is the safety engineering term of art.

GF
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:35 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The simple truth to having children that grow to be educated, productive members of society is having two parents involved in their upbringing. Children raised by single mothers have lower education attainment, higher rates of substance abuse, higher rates of criminal behavior. We have stopped, even assaulted, this simple fact as being outdated.

Providing free contraception requires the women to actually be responsible in using them, at present low costs and other methods being available; we haven’t enforced responsibility. Fifty years after the pill became available, we have seen single motherhood go from rare to normal. Normalization of deviance is the safety engineering term of art.

GF

Ok, I agree single motherhood is not great for children, I agree that free birth control won't be effective unless it is actually used, I agree the pill has been around for a while, and I agree that single motherhood is more prevalent.

I don't see how that all ties in together. First, yeah, if you provide free birth control, some percent less than 100% is going to use it, but some percent will, and that percent might not have before, blah blah, net gain is less unwanted kids or abortions. So far, so good right?

Then we get the whole rugged individualism and responsibility vs having the government give you stuff. We can debate the finer points and I'm probably to the left of you, but I think the ideal is a basic, basic safety net that enables people to live healthy and not on the streets, and equality of opportunity not outcome. If you don't want to put in work about the minimum, you'll get the minimum in life.

That being said, I'm willing to "coddle" people or "pay for free stuff" and "absolve them of responsibility" when the consequence for screwing this up is a "see? You screwed up! Learn from your lesson! Life is tough" PLUS the killing of an unborn child or an unwanted kid growing up on our tax dollars.

Again, what is the detailed policy alternative? It seems to be vague attempts to "get people to be more responsible" and all, but how? What can we put into place to actually affect change? We can preach away about being sexually responsible but it really doesn't do anything, at all, just leads to more abortions and more children on welfare and more tax money spent on it. That really is the alternative unless, again, you simply don't pay for these kids and have them literally starve. What is the detailed piece of policy?

Edit: are you saying that if we do offer free BC, it won't do good since it has already been available and people haven't been responsible before so why would they now? I mean you'd probably have some people doing that sadly, but I think you'd only see a (dramatic) increase in contraception and decrease in unintended pregnancies
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:46 am

If they were handed out, it wouldn’t do much to the rate of what was quaintly called illegitimate child. My mother was a maternity nurse, forty years ago, at a Catholic hospital. While the nuns spoke their peace to the wayward mothers, Mom handed out condoms and PP info, must to her chief nurse’s disapproval. I doubt it made a difference, the irresponsible don’t suddenly change and the horse is out of the barn on being responsible adults today. No going back and free access won’t change much.

I don’t have an answer, the “elites” act responsibly, but condone all sorts of bad behavior as just being the way of the lower orders.

Could we have an enforced policy of long-term contraception, like implants or IUDs? Maybe but it’s treading on thin ice as legal policy. Pills are cheap, but accounting for intermittent use, forgetting, etc. have higher failure rates.

GF
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:49 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Could we have an enforced policy of long-term contraception, like implants or IUDs? Maybe but it’s treading on thin ice as legal policy. Pills are cheap, but accounting for intermittent use, forgetting, etc. have higher failure rates.

GF

I wish, but that's getting invasive and I can see why anyone would be against it. It'd be nice to get to a point where you consciously have to choose to have a child. It wouldn't prevent all unprepared people from having kids, but it would sure cut down on it.

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree. I would imagine that if you easily provided free birth control, some percentage above 0% would take it. Probably would have to do advanced probability and analysis and other buzzwords, but I would think the cost of birth control would dwindle in comparison to potentially 18 years of welfare and a potentially neglected, abused kid that has a lower chance of being successful in many aspects

I don't view it as a sexism thing. Not providing free birth control is not sexist. While I'm for a basic universal healthcare, even if I wasn't (and back when I wasn't) I supported free birth control because of the obvious cost vs benefits: in saving $$$$, having less messed up kids becoming messed up adults, and less aborted babies.


A quick disclaimer before I get flamed: obviously not every unintended baby is unloved, unsuccessful, doomed to be a failure, etc, and planned pregnancies can result in unloved babies
 
seb146
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:03 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The simple truth to having children that grow to be educated, productive members of society is having two parents involved in their upbringing. Children raised by single mothers have lower education attainment, higher rates of substance abuse, higher rates of criminal behavior. We have stopped, even assaulted, this simple fact as being outdated.

Providing free contraception requires the women to actually be responsible in using them, at present low costs and other methods being available; we haven’t enforced responsibility. Fifty years after the pill became available, we have seen single motherhood go from rare to normal. Normalization of deviance is the safety engineering term of art.

GF


So men have zero responsibility? That is what it sounds like you are saying. There is nothing wrong with single mothers. If a man is that irresponsible, I would not want him as a father.

There are many factors as to why women are paid less than men. Pregnancy is one. Another is some men simply see women as servile and deserve less.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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qf789
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Re: Gender pay gap: "Women get 49¢ where dudes get a dollar"

Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:02 pm

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