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CitizenJustin
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Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:42 pm

According to CNN, an undercover cop was beaten with a baton by 4 police officers. They also attempted to cover up evidence by destroying the undercover officers phone, and contacted witnesses to dissuade them from coming forward. The officers were assigned to crowd control for an anticipated protest due to the acquittal of Jason Stockley, who killed a black man. Prosecutors say Stockley planted the gun, and of course used the “I feared for my life” excuse.

Text messages were found between the officers before the protest, and they’re sickening.

“We really need these f**kers to start acting up so we can have some fun”

“A lot of cops getting hurt, but it's still a blast beating people that deserve it,"

“beating the hell out of these s**theads once the sun goes down and no one can tell us apart”

They also referred to a black officer as “a thug that's on our side."

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/30/us/st-lo ... index.html

Of course these text messages just confirm what many of us already know. Racism is rife amongst law enforcement, and many are just power hungry, adult bullies.

What’s everyone’s take on this? Police in the U.S. seem to have a Wild West mentaility, and instead of de-escalating situations, they make them worse. When compared to statistics from other developed nations, the corruption, number of killings, and overall aggression is shocking. Trust in police has tanked, and I’ve talked to many people that question whether they’d even call the cops in an emergency. They do have a problem with shooting the wrong person, after all. Law enforcement doesn’t even rank within the top most dangerous jobs, so the level of aggression doesn’t match the actual threat.

I think law enforcement attracts too many of the wrong people. Surely, there’s a way to screen out certain personalities, reduce corruption, and hold officers accountable like every other adult with a job.
 
Flighty
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Re: Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:40 pm

There are some bad apples and I am glad things like this are surfaced. But it does not mean that police shouldn't crack down hard on crime. St Louis arguably needs far more aggressive policing. With hopefully every gunfire incident ending in the defeat of the threat by police officers. A police officer's skill should be judged by how many gunmen he or she has taken off the streets. Even being near a gunman (like in the same car), you should know that police are likely to approach and eliminate you. Probably not what you were looking for, but that is my take on it.

We should not tolerate police corruption or misconduct, but we let them to do their jobs. The amount of violent crime that is tolerated here is absolutely ridiculous. It can be eliminated easily IMO.
 
910A
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Re: Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:46 pm

Good news is that these officers will be fired, and lose their pensions..Bad news is there are too many police supervisors that continue to allow this type of attitude to filter down the ranks.

The comment about police work isn't ranked in the most dangerous jobs, those rankings are usually related to the number of deaths. Now if you look at the number of disability retirements, that tell another story. In the early 90's the average age of a law enforcement officer retiring from the California Highway Patrol, and Los Angeles Police Department ( two departments I am familiar with) was approximately 38 years of age. Working traffic is actually more dangerous than domestic violence incidents.

Does law enforcement attract too many of the wrong people. In some, departments the answer is yes, the standards have been lower in some Sheriff Departments, and cities that don't pay well and they just hire the leftovers other departments won't hire just to fill the ranks.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:51 pm

That's Blue ISIS for ya.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
seb146
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Re: Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:54 pm

These "few bad apples" enable other bad apples. If an investigation is done for what happened in St. Louis, the officers will simply be written up and go back to police work. This is a problem. Investigations are done and officers are found to be not responsible for killing brown skinned people. It is a largely corrupt system. And the good officers take the heat.

I know that, as a middle aged white man, I will never be killed or even pulled over by an officer for driving at or slightly below the speed limit. I will never be killed or beaten for walking on the sidewalk. I will never be killed or beaten for walking into a Starbucks. That is a huge problem.

These "few bad apples" ruin it for everyone else. They are terrified to see a Black or Latino man and so intimidated, just from seeing them, they kill them. That is a huge problem. It makes the honest cops look bad.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:26 pm

Flighty wrote:
There are some bad apples and I am glad things like this are surfaced. But it does not mean that police shouldn't crack down hard on crime. St Louis arguably needs far more aggressive policing. With hopefully every gunfire incident ending in the defeat of the threat by police officers. A police officer's skill should be judged by how many gunmen he or she has taken off the streets. Even being near a gunman (like in the same car), you should know that police are likely to approach and eliminate you. Probably not what you were looking for, but that is my take on it.

We should not tolerate police corruption or misconduct, but we let them to do their jobs. The amount of violent crime that is tolerated here is absolutely ridiculous. It can be eliminated easily IMO.


The problem is that we do tolerate police corruption. The reports over the past couple of years are extremely concerning, and it’s time this country admits there’s a problem. Police departments need to clean up their acts, increase standards, and do away with this us vs. them attitude. We are not their enemy, we’re the ones they’re supposed to serve and protect. Also, they shouldn’t be talking about beating protestors in a damn democracy. That is NOT ok, and it shouldn’t be considered normal.

Violent crime has been decreasing steadily for decades. NYC, and LA both had over 2,000 murders per year in the early 90’s, and now they’re two of the safest large cities in the nation with 500 murders or less. Even cities like Detroit, Chicago, St. Louis etc., had higher violent crime rates in the 90’s. The media’s fear mongering, and sensational reporting gives one the impression that it’s out of control when it’s actually decreasing.

The U.S. accounts for just 4% of the worlds population, yet we hold 18% of the total prison population. How does this equate to being lax on crime? We’re one of the only developed nations left with the death penalty, so I beg to differ. The sentences we hand down are comparatively much harsher than other western nations, and people are given ridiculously long sentences for relatively minor crimes. Our court system is inundated, and barely able to keep up.

Of course not every officer is corrupt, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a problem in this country.
 
Flighty
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Re: Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:49 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
Flighty wrote:
There are some bad apples and I am glad things like this are surfaced. But it does not mean that police shouldn't crack down hard on crime. St Louis arguably needs far more aggressive policing. With hopefully every gunfire incident ending in the defeat of the threat by police officers. A police officer's skill should be judged by how many gunmen he or she has taken off the streets. Even being near a gunman (like in the same car), you should know that police are likely to approach and eliminate you. Probably not what you were looking for, but that is my take on it.

We should not tolerate police corruption or misconduct, but we let them to do their jobs. The amount of violent crime that is tolerated here is absolutely ridiculous. It can be eliminated easily IMO.


The problem is that we do tolerate police corruption. The reports over the past couple of years are extremely concerning, and it’s time this country admits there’s a problem. Police departments need to clean up their acts, increase standards, and do away with this us vs. them attitude. We are not their enemy, we’re the ones they’re supposed to serve and protect. Also, they shouldn’t be talking about beating protestors in a damn democracy. That is NOT ok, and it shouldn’t be considered normal.

Violent crime has been decreasing steadily for decades. NYC, and LA both had over 2,000 murders per year in the early 90’s, and now they’re two of the safest large cities in the nation with 500 murders or less. Even cities like Detroit, Chicago, St. Louis etc., had higher violent crime rates in the 90’s. The media’s fear mongering, and sensational reporting gives one the impression that it’s out of control when it’s actually decreasing.

The U.S. accounts for just 4% of the worlds population, yet we hold 18% of the total prison population. How does this equate to being lax on crime? We’re one of the only developed nations left with the death penalty, so I beg to differ. The sentences we hand down are comparatively much harsher than other western nations, and people are given ridiculously long sentences for relatively minor crimes. Our court system is inundated, and barely able to keep up.

Of course not every officer is corrupt, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a problem in this country.


Police corruption is a big problem. It is notoriously poorly documented, because the POLICE usually are the ones documenting crime. Bodycams go a long way toward providing accountability (and corroboration) for on-duty patrol time. I see that as a great thing, primarily to the benefit of police falsely accused. It also provides some recourse to you if you feel you have been mistreated.

The US is fairly violent. In certain areas (like STL) the US holds its own among violent world capitals. Maybe some progress has been made... not nearly enough. We are wealthy enough to imprison as many people as necessary. Civilized society should not be giving up major cities like they did in STL. It should be a zero crime area, and it can be.
 
WIederling
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Re: Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:11 pm

Flighty wrote:
The US is fairly violent. In certain areas (like STL) the US holds its own among violent world capitals. Maybe some progress has been made... not nearly enough. We are wealthy enough to imprison as many people as necessary. Civilized society should not be giving up major cities like they did in STL. It should be a zero crime area, and it can be.


Interesting that "well known police states" are rather low on the ( police per 100k sorted ) list. :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... e_officers
Murphy is an optimist
 
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scbriml
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Re: Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:36 am

Flighty wrote:
There are some bad apples


Everything is OK, just a few bad apples. How many times do we hear this? "Bad apples" is a bury your head in the sand response.

Flighty wrote:
The US is fairly violent. In certain areas (like STL) the US holds its own among violent world capitals. Maybe some progress has been made... not nearly enough. We are wealthy enough to imprison as many people as necessary.


America already imprisons more of its citizens than many (most?) civilised societies.

Flighty wrote:
Civilized society should not be giving up major cities like they did in STL. It should be a zero crime area, and it can be.


Where in the World is there a zero crime 'area', let alone one the size of St Louis?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
WIederling
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Re: Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:53 am

scbriml wrote:
Flighty wrote:
The US is fairly violent. In certain areas (like STL) the US holds its own among violent world capitals. Maybe some progress has been made... not nearly enough. We are wealthy enough to imprison as many people as necessary.

America already imprisons more of its citizens than many (most?) civilised societies.


It is a profitable industry. Very American. incarceration rate must increase and billable outlay per prisoner must rise strongly too.
How else will you increase profits? If you are successful in that domain god will smile on you.
Murphy is an optimist
 
seb146
Posts: 18439
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:08 pm

WIederling wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Flighty wrote:
The US is fairly violent. In certain areas (like STL) the US holds its own among violent world capitals. Maybe some progress has been made... not nearly enough. We are wealthy enough to imprison as many people as necessary.

America already imprisons more of its citizens than many (most?) civilised societies.


It is a profitable industry. Very American. incarceration rate must increase and billable outlay per prisoner must rise strongly too.
How else will you increase profits? If you are successful in that domain god will smile on you.


I hate saying this because I think it is disgusting, but to White people especially in rural areas, it makes sense that non-White people are seen as criminals, are stopped more often and receive longer sentences. TBH, I am more scared of middle aged white men than non-White anything.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:26 pm

seb146 wrote:
These "few bad apples" enable other bad apples.

:checkmark:

Every department has bad apples, I think everyone can agree.

But it's more complex than that. The department itself has a culture that can be good or bad (well, at a point somewhere on a continuum.) This culture has a great influence and can spoil some good apples (and good departments can probably prevent good cops from slipping, or at least weed out the bad ones.)

What is a rookie to do when he is called to a scene and there is a lot of drug money lying around, and the culture is good? Probably call it in and document it properly.

What if that same cop sees another officer take $5000 and call in the rest? What if it's "only" $1000? Does he ruin a mostly good cop's career over a bit of a lowlife's stash of money, for cops aren't paid enough many times? What if he tries to report it and gets offered $1000 himself? Or threatened? What if he does report it and his superiors "discipline" the officer and the rest of the officers hate him for snitching?

So he shuts up, and looks the other way. Bad apple, slightly corrupt? A few months later he sees his buddies extort some drug dealers for money instead of arresting them. Look the other way or join in?

Kind of a long post, but this is how it happens. There are different levels of corruption (from straight murder to just not reporting a minor violation) and so, so much of that results from the culture. From the officer him/herself, to the other officers, to the superiors, to the local politicians, to the past cases of discipline/lack of disciplining, etc

So I'd be cautious dismissing them as "a few bad apples." Are they a few bad apples on a tree of healthy ones, or is the tree part of the problem?

Disclaimer: I know a lot of law enforcement officers, have a lot of respect for the average cop, and consider myself pro-cop. I think any honest LEO, when not feeling personally attacked and defensive, would admit as much ^
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:46 pm

Shades of Mark Fuhrman come to mind.
 
Flighty
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Re: Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:02 pm

scbriml wrote:
Flighty wrote:
There are some bad apples


Everything is OK, just a few bad apples. How many times do we hear this? "Bad apples" is a bury your head in the sand response.

Flighty wrote:
The US is fairly violent. In certain areas (like STL) the US holds its own among violent world capitals. Maybe some progress has been made... not nearly enough. We are wealthy enough to imprison as many people as necessary.


America already imprisons more of its citizens than many (most?) civilised societies.

Flighty wrote:
Civilized society should not be giving up major cities like they did in STL. It should be a zero crime area, and it can be.


Where in the World is there a zero crime 'area', let alone one the size of St Louis?


In terms of murder rates, numerous large cities have near zero (Beijing... Tokyo...). It's not like it is very difficult to detect gunshots, zero in on that area and eliminate the source of the gunshots. We do have that technology. You just find the gunmen and start getting rid of them. Simple.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:18 pm

Flighty wrote:
In terms of murder rates, numerous large cities have near zero (Beijing... Tokyo...). It's not like it is very difficult to detect gunshots, zero in on that area and eliminate the source of the gunshots. We do have that technology. You just find the gunmen and start getting rid of them. Simple.


"Near zero" is not zero. If it's so simple why hasn't America cut its murder rate to match or better other civilised countries? :scratchchin:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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BartSimpson
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Re: Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:53 am

Flighty wrote:
... A police officer's skill should be judged by how many gunmen he or she has taken off the streets. ...


That's the safest method to increase police brutality. It's the Philippines way. Duarte would approve of that. There's a reason why the USA has a division of powers. The police is part of law enforcement, not jurisdiction.

scbriml wrote:
"Near zero" is not zero. If it's so simple why hasn't America cut its murder rate to match or better other civilised countries? :scratchchin:


You nailed it...
 
WIederling
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Re: Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:03 am

scbriml wrote:
If it's so simple why hasn't America cut its murder rate to match or better other civilised countries? :scratchchin:

Because they never look beyond the keyhole view at the use of weapons.
A rather pronounced case were the school shootings by (current, former) pupils.

solution "Armed teachers and extra guards will certainly fix this."
fixed now? no.

If you don't fix the culture of relentless hazing of the more intelligent but not in the socializing mainstream pupils
there is no way to fix it. Armed guards just escalate the problem.
The solution is to take away pressure and not "better" contain it.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:47 am

Flighty wrote:
In terms of murder rates, numerous large cities have near zero (Beijing... Tokyo...). It's not like it is very difficult to detect gunshots, zero in on that area and eliminate the source of the gunshots. We do have that technology. You just find the gunmen and start getting rid of them. Simple.

You know very well what the main difference is between cities like Beijing and Tokyo, and cities like Chicago and St. Louis:

the former are not part of countries that give guns revered status and as such is not part of their culture. Meanwhile, IL can tighten its gun laws all it wants, but nothing is stopping someone from driving to IN or MO, buying a gun, and driving back to Chicago, unless IL institutes a border check.

Granted, you don't need a gun to commit a crime but just like having $1M can't buy happiness, it sure does help.

The issue here, however, is not whether guns are needed or evil or whatever, but rather the methods police use with the people they're meant to protect and how their unevenly applied. And, as it always happens, the bad apples give everyone else a bad name.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
stratosphere
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Re: Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:48 pm

seb146 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
scbriml wrote:
America already imprisons more of its citizens than many (most?) civilised societies.


It is a profitable industry. Very American. incarceration rate must increase and billable outlay per prisoner must rise strongly too.
How else will you increase profits? If you are successful in that domain god will smile on you.


I hate saying this because I think it is disgusting, but to White people especially in rural areas, it makes sense that non-White people are seen as criminals, are stopped more often and receive longer sentences. TBH, I am more scared of middle aged white men than non-White anything.


Well Seb it is all about what you are exposed too..I am not a big fan of cops in general and I have never really had much interaction with them since I am law abiding but the job does seem to attract a certain individual and there are way too many punks with a badge. Too many especially young ones abuse the power. But that said if I were a cop and I worked in a city like STL I imagine it gets pretty old dealing with the constant BS of the black community. I never understood it until I lived in a majority black city with rampant crime and actually became a crime victim myself held up at gunpoint by 4 young black men asking for directions. So if a group of young black men are approaching me on the street vs a group of middle aged white men who do you think I am going to be fearful of? But that said I have had black neighbors living next door to me and also had white redneck 4 wheeling confederate flag waving neighbors also and who do you think I would want as neighbors? I would take the black family every time as my neighbor. It's all what you have been exposed to.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Undercover Officer Beaten By Four STL Cops

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:06 pm

Is this where I am supposed to say "blue lives matter" or "all lives matter"? I forget

Flighty wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
Flighty wrote:
There are some bad apples and I am glad things like this are surfaced. But it does not mean that police shouldn't crack down hard on crime. St Louis arguably needs far more aggressive policing. With hopefully every gunfire incident ending in the defeat of the threat by police officers. A police officer's skill should be judged by how many gunmen he or she has taken off the streets. Even being near a gunman (like in the same car), you should know that police are likely to approach and eliminate you. Probably not what you were looking for, but that is my take on it.

We should not tolerate police corruption or misconduct, but we let them to do their jobs. The amount of violent crime that is tolerated here is absolutely ridiculous. It can be eliminated easily IMO.


The problem is that we do tolerate police corruption. The reports over the past couple of years are extremely concerning, and it’s time this country admits there’s a problem. Police departments need to clean up their acts, increase standards, and do away with this us vs. them attitude. We are not their enemy, we’re the ones they’re supposed to serve and protect. Also, they shouldn’t be talking about beating protestors in a damn democracy. That is NOT ok, and it shouldn’t be considered normal.

Violent crime has been decreasing steadily for decades. NYC, and LA both had over 2,000 murders per year in the early 90’s, and now they’re two of the safest large cities in the nation with 500 murders or less. Even cities like Detroit, Chicago, St. Louis etc., had higher violent crime rates in the 90’s. The media’s fear mongering, and sensational reporting gives one the impression that it’s out of control when it’s actually decreasing.

The U.S. accounts for just 4% of the worlds population, yet we hold 18% of the total prison population. How does this equate to being lax on crime? We’re one of the only developed nations left with the death penalty, so I beg to differ. The sentences we hand down are comparatively much harsher than other western nations, and people are given ridiculously long sentences for relatively minor crimes. Our court system is inundated, and barely able to keep up.

Of course not every officer is corrupt, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a problem in this country.


Police corruption is a big problem. It is notoriously poorly documented, because the POLICE usually are the ones documenting crime. Bodycams go a long way toward providing accountability (and corroboration) for on-duty patrol time. I see that as a great thing, primarily to the benefit of police falsely accused. It also provides some recourse to you if you feel you have been mistreated.

The US is fairly violent. In certain areas (like STL) the US holds its own among violent world capitals. Maybe some progress has been made... not nearly enough. We are wealthy enough to imprison as many people as necessary. Civilized society should not be giving up major cities like they did in STL. It should be a zero crime area, and it can be.

Bad apples and corruption are the rule, not the exception. The same folks who want accountability and government oversight for DMV paper pushers always seem to get amnesia when they see a uniform, whether it's the police or military. My parents' uber wealthy, white enclave police chief has managed to entrap a neighbor, who fortunately has the legal and financial ammunition to go after the entire department...which is nothing to say of poorer, non white citizes of larger cities that are dealing with far more complicated, historically entrenched issues in addition to bad apple barrel police departments.
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