smallvoyageur
Topic Author
Posts: 149
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:24 pm

Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:47 pm

 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 1709
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:53 pm

Good idea, GITMO north.

GF
 
ltbewr
Posts: 13612
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:42 am

Although not part of the EU, this has to be in violation of all kinds of humanitarian treaties and agreements Norway is a signer to. That includes per the linked article that the location of this detention center at a site for working with dangerous diseases in animals. Sadly, this is to pander to the growing anti-immigrant right wing voters, to appease them to some extent and make sure these detainees continue to be a sick limbo.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 1709
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:07 am

But, it’s the Danish!
 
ltbewr
Posts: 13612
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:41 am

ltbewr wrote:
Although not part of the EU, this has to be in violation of all kinds of humanitarian treaties and agreements Norway is a signer to. That includes per the linked article that the location of this detention center at a site for working with dangerous diseases in animals. Sadly, this is to pander to the growing anti-immigrant right wing voters, to appease them to some extent and make sure these detainees continue to be a sick limbo.

OOPS, it is Denmark who is part of the EU so for sure has to be in violation of EU laws and rules.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 1709
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:00 am

You can’t build prisons in the EU? Who knew?

GF
 
User avatar
EstherLouise
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:16 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:11 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You can’t build prisons in the EU? Who knew?

GF


You can, but have to allow mass murderers to leave after serving only 5 years or so.
712 722 732 734 737 738 741 742 744 752 762 772 A310 DC91 DC93 DC94 DC1030 DC1040 F100 MD82 MD83
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6819
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:15 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You can’t build prisons in the EU? Who knew?

GF

It's not a prison. It's a camp for rejected asylum seekers where they stay until they go home voluntarily or forcefully.

We have today one such camp in central Jutland. With about 200 inmates it is getting too small, and roughly half of the inmates, who are previous criminals, are causing serious problems both for a nearby villlage and the non-criminal inmates.

Therefore we split the camp in two, one for those with a criminal record (have served their prison sentence), and one for the criminally clean inmates. For the second camp we use an existing abandoned university research institute on an island.

At both places the inmates are free to leave the camp, but they must report at the camp every evening. They shall not stray around in the country at night.

With a ten minutes ferry trip to/from the island running only at daytime we hope that police will get an easier job, as will the non-criminal inmates in the old camp and the neighbors.

But we will see what happens. The people living in the village, to where the ferry goes, are complaining.

This whole thing has absolutely nothing with EU ruling to do. If for no other reason, then because of the Danish opt-out on common justice issues.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:53 am

EstherLouise wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You can’t build prisons in the EU? Who knew?

GF


You can, but have to allow mass murderers to leave after serving only 5 years or so.


Bullshit. They don't have to let murderers go, not ever.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
P1aneMad
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:05 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:30 am

And yet they do just that.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:02 am

P1aneMad wrote:
And yet they do just that.


yeah, after on average 17 years in Denmark, and not because they have to, but because they think it is unlikely to re-commit. The EU also has nothing to do with it.
Recidivism rate in Denmark is 27%, that is about half of what for example the US accomplishes, so whatever the Danes are doing is obviously working.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
P1aneMad
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:05 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:17 pm

None of that "works" for the victims and their families.
Going to prison for murder is not just to keep you from murdering more people.
It is also punishment for the utimate crime commited, one that can not be rectified.
So your statement
Bullshit. They don't have to let murderers go, not ever
is the only BS here.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:43 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
None of that "works" for the victims and their families.


i am sure you have evidence for that statement. Here the families of victims are usually heard before release decision are made, and them being disappointed by such ruling is rare.

Going to prison for murder is not just to keep you from murdering more people.


yeah, it pretty much is. "Correction" facility, not "punishment" facility.

So your statement
Bullshit. They don't have to let murderers go, not ever
is the only BS here.


No, the statement is correct in its entirety.

"They don't have to let murderers go, not ever", and they don´t. They just can, and usually do, mostly without any protests from the families.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 8459
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:57 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
"Correction" facility, not "punishment" facility.

Sadly the USA has pretty much reverted to "punishment" as the only acceptable thing. We want vengeance, state sponsored and personal.

Hopefully we will return to the plan of "correctional" but I don't see it likely for now.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 1535
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:26 pm

Tugger wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
"Correction" facility, not "punishment" facility.

Sadly the USA has pretty much reverted to "punishment" as the only acceptable thing. We want vengeance, state sponsored and personal.

Hopefully we will return to the plan of "correctional" but I don't see it likely for now.

Tugg


Perhaps we should call it a Deterrence Facility then?


Following is off topic

Personally I don't believe the USA is much of a punishment either. Roof over your head, food in your belly, in most cases you have access to education, health care and get to enjoy modern entertainment.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:12 pm

Good for Denmark.

It is none of the EU’s business.

We should do the same in the UK.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 11697
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:05 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
EstherLouise wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You can’t build prisons in the EU? Who knew?

GF


You can, but have to allow mass murderers to leave after serving only 5 years or so.


Bullshit. They don't have to let murderers go, not ever.

Best regards
Thomas


In Norway they do. No exceptions even Arnfinn Nesset he who was convicted of 22 murders but likely killed over 100 people was sentenced to life but got out after 12 years.

A man living 100m down the road from my house is a convicted pedo he returned to our street after serving 4 years of an 8 year sentence, nobody told us he was returning he just turned up one day. The prick deserved death for he did, not 4 years in a holiday camp.

Justice in Scandinavia is pathetic!!
Last edited by Kiwirob on Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 10630
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:06 pm

Human rights in Europe are "managed" by the European Convention on Human Rights, a treaty older than the EU and its predecessors. All Western European countries are members, as well as Iceland, Ukraine, Russia, Turkey...

The reason the measure was taken, and its use by politicians (I've seen a pretty racist video from a ruling party...), is one thing, however I don't find it to be particularly inhuman. Plenty of asylum seekers in Europe, not even criminals, are effectively confined to camps.

I'm sure they haven't been convicted for having stolen an apple either.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 1535
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:38 pm

Meanwhile in Australia: "What seems to be the problem mate?"
 
User avatar
787Driver
Posts: 376
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:05 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:31 pm

smallvoyageur wrote:
A little extreme IMHO


Why do you think that it's extreme?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:02 am

Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
EstherLouise wrote:

You can, but have to allow mass murderers to leave after serving only 5 years or so.


Bullshit. They don't have to let murderers go, not ever.

Best regards
Thomas


In Norway they do.!


Norway has "forvaring" and can keep dangerous individuals in prison for as long as they think it is necessary. So no, also Norway doesn´t have to. They got the ordnance on the books.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
787Driver
Posts: 376
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:05 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:04 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Bullshit. They don't have to let murderers go, not ever.

Best regards
Thomas


In Norway they do.!


Norway has "forvaring" and can keep dangerous individuals in prison for as long as they think it is necessary. So no, also Norway doesn´t have to. They got the ordnance on the books.

best regards
Thomas


Denmark has the same.
 
User avatar
Zeppi
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:18 am

trpmb6 wrote:
Meanwhile in Australia: "What seems to be the problem mate?"

Was going to say just that :D

The EU should long have adopted the australian model to counter illegal immigration, we have enough uninhabitet islands in the med to do it. Would swat multiple flies with one clap: Stop migrants drowning by the thousands by rescuing them in a coordinated manner (i.e. NOT as the NGOs did), and taking them to those detention centres while sinking the ships (and preferably the trafficers too). There they can be processed to seperate legit war refugees and politically persecuted from those just tagging along for the ride, which could be deported back to their origin immediately. Distrubute the legit refugees evenly across the EU, provide good education so eventually they can return to their home, rebuild and make it a better place.
I think it would be perfectly doable also in terms of funding, and would eventually stop the influx as the "tag alongers" would eventually realise they have zero chance to make it to the EU.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:56 am

787Driver wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

In Norway they do.!


Norway has "forvaring" and can keep dangerous individuals in prison for as long as they think it is necessary. So no, also Norway doesn´t have to. They got the ordnance on the books.

best regards
Thomas


Denmark has the same.


I know... that is where we started.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5906
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:08 am

Zeppi wrote:

The EU should long have adopted the australian model to counter illegal immigration, we have enough uninhabitet islands in the med to do it.

Impossible. This makes too much sense.
Dirty deals with Turkey and lobbying Chinese manufacturers of cheap rubber boats to not sell them to traffickers is way easier. Besides with people like Avramupoulos, Macron or Merke calling the shots, l the Frontex can have 100,000 officers and exactly nothing would change anyway.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 11697
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:18 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Bullshit. They don't have to let murderers go, not ever.

Best regards
Thomas


In Norway they do.!


Norway has "forvaring" and can keep dangerous individuals in prison for as long as they think it is necessary. So no, also Norway doesn´t have to. They got the ordnance on the books.

best regards
Thomas


Norway does not have a life sentence, the maximum sentence is officially 21 years, unless its a crime against humanity then it's 30 years, nobody has been sentenced in Norway for a crime against humanity.

Forvaring or preventative detention has only been on the books since 2001, none of the people sentenced to it have been in prison for 21 years, so nobody knows what will happen, judging from past cases like Arnfinn Nesset, a man convicted of 22 murders but probably killed 138 people after 12 years of a 21 year sentence anything can happen, Norwegian justice is all about the prisoners rights and rehabilitation, I really doubt anyone with the possibility of ABB will ever do a life sentence which results in life behind bars in Norway, it's not how things are done here.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 11697
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:21 am

Zeppi wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Meanwhile in Australia: "What seems to be the problem mate?"

Was going to say just that :D

The EU should long have adopted the australian model to counter illegal immigration, we have enough uninhabitet islands in the med to do it. Would swat multiple flies with one clap: Stop migrants drowning by the thousands by rescuing them in a coordinated manner (i.e. NOT as the NGOs did), and taking them to those detention centres while sinking the ships (and preferably the trafficers too). There they can be processed to seperate legit war refugees and politically persecuted from those just tagging along for the ride, which could be deported back to their origin immediately. Distrubute the legit refugees evenly across the EU, provide good education so eventually they can return to their home, rebuild and make it a better place.
I think it would be perfectly doable also in terms of funding, and would eventually stop the influx as the "tag alongers" would eventually realise they have zero chance to make it to the EU.


What the EU should have done is defend it borders better. Once they're in it's not all that easy to kick them out.
 
User avatar
Zeppi
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:44 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Impossible. This makes too much sense.
Dirty deals with Turkey and lobbying Chinese manufacturers of cheap rubber boats to not sell them to traffickers is way easier. Besides with people like Avramupoulos, Macron or Merke calling the shots, l the Frontex can have 100,000 officers and exactly nothing would change anyway.

True.
The entire current system is a buerocratic monster, funds as well as personnel are allocated in such manner that it's inneffective and a total waste of resources.
And how one could make themselves reliant on and blackmailable by Erdogan is totally beyond me. The money he's receiving from EU is going pretty much anywhere but to the refugees in need of it.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:53 am

Zeppi wrote:
And how one could make themselves reliant on and blackmailable by Erdogan is totally beyond me. The money he's receiving from EU is going pretty much anywhere but to the refugees in need of it.


Yup. Hilarious how Europe wannabe dictators like Voctor Orban arranged the EU to subsidize another one of their lot.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5906
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:39 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Zeppi wrote:
And how one could make themselves reliant on and blackmailable by Erdogan is totally beyond me. The money he's receiving from EU is going pretty much anywhere but to the refugees in need of it.


Yup. Hilarious how Europe wannabe dictators like Voctor Orban arranged the EU to subsidize another one of their lot.

best regards
Thomas

The denial you're living in is just unbelievable. Did Orban cut this dirty deal with Erdogan or was it actually Merkel in a desperate effort for damage control of her earlier lunatic decisions? AFAIK Orban advocated protection of EU's outer border. I hate to be his advocate, but the way you twist reality is just mind boggling.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:12 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Zeppi wrote:
And how one could make themselves reliant on and blackmailable by Erdogan is totally beyond me. The money he's receiving from EU is going pretty much anywhere but to the refugees in need of it.


Yup. Hilarious how Europe wannabe dictators like Voctor Orban arranged the EU to subsidize another one of their lot.

best regards
Thomas

The denial you're living in is just unbelievable. Did Orban cut this dirty deal with Erdogan or was it actually Merkel in a desperate effort for damage control of her earlier lunatic decisions? AFAIK Orban advocated protection of EU's outer border. I hate to be his advocate, but the way you twist reality is just mind boggling.


well, lets get your attempts to ignore and revise history and and who did and wanted what out of the way.

The EU wanted to make sure that refugees, that can not legally be stopped from entering the EU, would remain in Greece and Italy. To facilitate that the EU wanted to make sure both have the resources to do so. That is how the EU is supposed to work after all.
Viktor Orban, and some other cunts, said "no" to that, making the EU solution fail as spending extra money needs unanimous decisions. That let to the, expected, deterioration of conditions in those refugee camps, which then let to those in them moving onward, which to that point did pretty much not happen at all.
He then practically, along with the aforementioned other cunts, waved the refugees through his country, and effectively did everything possible to make sure the problem, he himself created, became other peoples problem as fast as possible. Ms. Merkel only ever considered taking on refugees on any other way then EU mechanisms when they where already amassing at the border, courtesy of that incompetent Hungarian cretin.

Aside of Assad and ISIS Victor Orban is by far the biggest single contributor to the creation of that refugee crisis, everything else was just a consequence of his decision making.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
WildcatYXU
Posts: 2931
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:41 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Ms. Merkel only ever considered taking on refugees on any other way then EU mechanisms when they where already amassing at the border, courtesy of that incompetent Hungarian cretin.

Aside of Assad and ISIS Victor Orban is by far the biggest single contributor to the creation of that refugee crisis, everything else was just a consequence of his decision making.

best regards
Thomas


What? Do you seriously mean that? I may live on the other side of the pond, but I was following the news. And the situation definitely looked different from here. The stream of migrants turned to Hungary only after the more convenient ways getting to Germany were cut off. And when the Hungarians started to fulfill their commitments - meaning protecting Schengens' outer border, they came under attack. Orban is a ruthless dictator type and IMHO he should not be the PM of an EU country, but here he bears very little responsibility in the migrant crisis. However he's a very convenient scapegoat for some irresponsible politicians, such as one former FDJ member. As we can see, their constituents took it hook, line and sinker.
310, 319, 320, 321, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:44 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Ms. Merkel only ever considered taking on refugees on any other way then EU mechanisms when they where already amassing at the border, courtesy of that incompetent Hungarian cretin.

Aside of Assad and ISIS Victor Orban is by far the biggest single contributor to the creation of that refugee crisis, everything else was just a consequence of his decision making.

best regards
Thomas


What?


Yup. If he, and to be fair a hand full of other governments, had doled out some money, he is always more than willing to take it, there would have still been a crisis, but nowhere near the proportions it had.

The stream of migrants turned to Hungary only after the more convenient ways getting to Germany were cut off


The convenient route was Greece -> Serbia -> Hungry -> Austria -> Germany. The route via Hungry was by far the most popular, in 2015 about 80% of all refugees went that way.

And when the Hungarians started to fulfill their commitments - meaning protecting Schengens' outer border, they came under attack


Of course they did, it was pretty much the only fucking thing they did.
The correct behavior would have been: pick them up, bring them back to Greece, make sure Greece has the funds to take care of them, that part together with the rest of the EU.

Germany turned refugees back as fast as could be arranged until the End of August 2015, so no refugee could expect to stay, The decision to accept refugees was made on September 4th 2015, after consulting with Austria and coming to the conclusion that there is no way of stopping the masses unless someone is willing to open fire.

That decision was made about 2 hours after the Hungarian government started to commandeer buses to bring regfugees to Austria/Germany as fast as possible and informing Berlin about their intention to do just that. In violation of EU treaties, and not just in spirit as with the decision to sit on its money instead of helping Greece. Side note: that Greece was unable to stem any significant number of refugees was known since 2011, so Victor Orban knew very darn well what would happen if any significant refuge flow developed and tried to get away with doing jack sh*t.

And that was month after Hungry started to build its fence.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
WildcatYXU
Posts: 2931
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:22 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

Yup. If he, and to be fair a hand full of other governments, had doled out some money, he is always more than willing to take it, there would have still been a crisis, but nowhere near the proportions it had.



No, It wouldn't do anything. It is necessary to enforce the existing refugee policies. Create reasonable immigration policies all around EU countries. Make sure Frontex will stop acting as a cost cutting measure for human traffickers. As long as this won't happen, the crisis will remain and actually worsen.
And of course, there is the proper way of doing this, but unfortunately in today's world the proper solution is as probable as a fairy tale.

The convenient route was Greece -> Serbia -> Hungry -> Austria -> Germany. The route via Hungry was by far the most popular, in 2015 about 80% of all refugees went that way.


I remember Hungary being out of the way and the migrants turning towards Hungary only after Austria's southern border was reinforced, but I stand to be corrected.

Of course they did, it was pretty much the only fucking thing they did.
The correct behavior would have been: pick them up, bring them back to Greece, make sure Greece has the funds to take care of them, that part together with the rest of the EU.

Please educate me how would they return tens of thousands of people who wouldn't want to be in Greece and to be honest, Greece didn't want them either. The only way to accomplish that would be to force them onto trains, then under heavy guard escort them back. I can see the huge outcry from the usual suspects. Your FDJ member would shit bricks.
Germany turned refugees back as fast as could be arranged until the End of August 2015, so no refugee could expect to stay, The decision to accept refugees was made on September 4th 2015, after consulting with Austria and coming to the conclusion that there is no way of stopping the masses unless someone is willing to open fire.


Apparently not fast enough to stop the flow.

That decision was made about 2 hours after the Hungarian government started to commandeer buses to bring regfugees to Austria/Germany as fast as possible and informing Berlin about their intention to do just that. In violation of EU treaties, and not just in spirit as with the decision to sit on its money instead of helping Greece. Side note: that Greece was unable to stem any significant number of refugees was known since 2011, so Victor Orban knew very darn well what would happen if any significant refuge flow developed and tried to get away with doing jack sh*t.



Orban knew there is a refugee crisis going on just as well as other 25 EU PM's and did just the same. Nothing, nichts, nada. And yet he's the only one to blame. Very interesting.
310, 319, 320, 321, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 1709
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:27 pm

The EU wanted to make sure that refugees, that can not legally be stopped from entering the EU, would remain in Greece and Italy. To facilitate that the EU wanted to make sure both have the resources to do so. That is how the EU is supposed to work after all.


So, the EU cannot defend its borders? They just have to take whoever shows up? Can I claim refuge status because I live in the US and you lot think Trump is a dictator. This way lies madness.

GF
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8406
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:55 am

tommy1808 wrote:
The EU wanted to make sure that refugees, that can not legally be stopped from entering the EU, would remain in Greece and Italy. To facilitate that the EU wanted to make sure both have the resources to do so. That is how the EU is supposed to work after all.

Pardon my ignorance, but why should Greece and Italy have to bear all the responsibility for the refugees? I know you say they should "have the resources," but wouldn't it be more fair for the EU states to all take a proportional amount?

I'm sure there has to be more to whatever agreement because that sounds massively unfair
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:42 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The EU wanted to make sure that refugees, that can not legally be stopped from entering the EU, would remain in Greece and Italy. To facilitate that the EU wanted to make sure both have the resources to do so. That is how the EU is supposed to work after all.


So, the EU cannot defend its borders?


refugee have rights, one of them being that to actually get to a refuge. If the claim is bogus you can send them back, but you can not just scream "no" at the border. It is not like in the US where the US government affirms human rights all the freaking time to then withhold them from people, especially its own citizens, because international treaties, signed and ratified, are not directly applicable in court. Here, and in most of the world, they are.

They just have to take whoever shows up?


Take? No. Process? Yes.

Can I claim refuge status because I live in the US and you lot think Trump is a dictator.


Yes, you can. You are likely going to be denied fairly quickly, but you not just put on the next plane back.

This way lies madness.


Not doing it that way is where madness lies. Sort of scary that US citizens of all people don´t get that even almost 80 years after you send the Jews on the MS St. Louis back to being slaughtered...

WildcatYXU wrote:
Create reasonable immigration policies all around EU countries.


We have those, thank you very much. And we don´t need to violate international laws to enforce them either.

Make sure Frontex will stop acting as a cost cutting measure for human traffickers. As long as this won't happen, the crisis will remain and actually worsen.


ah.. big words. Should they let them drown, sink their boats or, in violation of international law, force them back to where they come from?

Which crime against humanity do you want Frontex to commit?

And of course, there is the proper way of doing this, but unfortunately in today's world the proper solution is as probable as a fairy tale.


Worked pretty fine during the Balkan wars. Of course a bunch of eastern European countries wasn´t in the EU at the moment and coudn´t veto proper solutions.

The convenient route was Greece -> Serbia -> Hungry -> Austria -> Germany. The route via Hungry was by far the most popular, in 2015 about 80% of all refugees went that way.


I remember Hungary being out of the way and the migrants turning towards Hungary only after Austria's southern border was reinforced, but I stand to be corrected.


rare enough on a forum for someone to have enough character to say such, so thank you.

Please educate me how would they return tens of thousands of people who wouldn't want to be in Greece


yet, despite a totally overwhelmed Greece most of them stayed in place until Orban started busing people ....

and to be honest, Greece didn't want them either.


What makes you think that? Rejection in Greece was very low, especially considering how many refugees they had in Country. They helped first, the devoted scarce resources. Greece is the cradle of western civilization, and frankly, they stood true to that in that crisis. Greek people don´t need adult diapers every time a asylum seeker shows up....
They would also be smart enough to see that the 20+ Billion EUR that would have likely flowed into Greece would give a pretty good boost to the Greek economy. That is 10% of their GDP.....

The only way to accomplish that would be to force them onto trains, then under heavy guard escort them back. I can see the huge outcry from the usual suspects. Your FDJ member would shit bricks.


Nonsense. We ferry refugees around Europe all the time, and have been doing so for over 20 years. Problems are so rare that the Media actually gets around to report all of them, and that rare enough.
Last big refugee crisis 95%+ off all refugees had returned to their homeland within a couple of years after the situation has settled

Apparently not fast enough to stop the flow.


kinda difficult if someone sabotages the effort...

Orban knew there is a refugee crisis going on just as well as other 25 EU PM's and did just the same. Nothing, nichts, nada. And yet he's the only one to blame. Very interesting.


may have something to do that he not just a) refused to work on a solution (all new eastern members and Spain along with him), but also b) allowed ~80 of all refugees to transit through his territory and c) commandeered buses to speed that up as much as he could....... which of the other 25 EU PMs did that?

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but why should Greece and Italy have to bear all the responsibility for the refugees? I know you say they should "have the resources," but wouldn't it be more fair for the EU states to all take a proportional amount?

I'm sure there has to be more to whatever agreement because that sounds massively unfair


The short answer? Because that is how it would pan out if there where hard borders.

In long the idea is that all EU members should offer a minimum standard of care for asylum seekers. If they where allowed to go where they wanted to, instead of being required to apply on their first EU stop, it would create an incentive to reduce those standards to get refugee seekers to move on, and make them another countries problem. So by force of the Dublin Agreement EU members can send refugee seekers back to their first EU stop.
Since the EU is supposed to be a club of grown ups, EU countries usually agree on a distribution/financing key to make it fair from a load bearing perspective, roughly proportional to what they can do, just as you suggested would be fair. Cue ungrateful bastards honestly thinking they can take, and take only..... so that didn´t happen.

I think in the next round of treaties the mechanism will be clarified in a way that requires to either take refugees or pay for them, making it attractive for below-average-GDP/Capita members to take refugees as it is likely cheaper than paying up.
Something i really like about the EU is that all treaty iterations where driven not just by "What do we want the Union to become", but also by "what didn´t work in the past and how do we change that", while having a good hard look how other places do it. Decision making in the EU is very US-Style, just with an improved "House/Senate" system that doesn´t allow big members to steamroll the small ones, or the small ones to do the same to the bigger ones. They have to cooperate to get shit done.
I´d assume the next iteration will force cooperation on that too. Because a system works best in a Multi(bi)-partisan fashion if being partisan is not an option that works in the long run.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
WildcatYXU
Posts: 2931
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:01 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

WildcatYXU wrote:
Create reasonable immigration policies all around EU countries.


We have those, thank you very much. And we don´t need to violate international laws to enforce them either.



You have an immigration program similar to Canada? That's news to me, but again, I'm glad to be corrected if I'm wrong. That said, I know at least one EU member where is virtually impossible to immigrate and where even family reunification is a major pain.


ah.. big words. Should they let them drown, sink their boats or, in violation of international law, force them back to where they come from?

Which crime against humanity do you want Frontex to commit?


Actually, sanctions against the countries where the migrants are departing from would be a good start (I'm not talking about the real ME war refugees now). After all, human trafficking is a crime and aiding traffickers is a crime too.
And yes, force the boats back could be necessary at least for start.

And of course, there is the proper way of doing this, but unfortunately in today's world the proper solution is as probable as a fairy tale.

Worked pretty fine during the Balkan wars. Of course a bunch of eastern European countries wasn´t in the EU at the moment and coudn´t veto proper solutions.


I believe you misunderstood me. I'm talking about removing the reasons for mass emigration. But in the current world it won't happen.

Nonsense. We ferry refugees around Europe all the time, and have been doing so for over 20 years. Problems are so rare that the Media actually gets around to report all of them, and that rare enough.
Last big refugee crisis 95%+ off all refugees had returned to their homeland within a couple of years after the situation has settled


Tens of thousands within short period of time? Not easy and expensive. And you still have to deal with people who don't want to go back.


Apparently not fast enough to stop the flow.
kinda difficult if someone sabotages the effort...


Processing asylum applications is Germany's internal procedure and nobody has the means to sabotage it.

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but why should Greece and Italy have to bear all the responsibility for the refugees? I know you say they should "have the resources," but wouldn't it be more fair for the EU states to all take a proportional amount?

I'm sure there has to be more to whatever agreement because that sounds massively unfair

The short answer? Because that is how it would pan out if there where hard borders.

In long the idea is that all EU members should offer a minimum standard of care for asylum seekers. If they where allowed to go where they wanted to, instead of being required to apply on their first EU stop


The question is what is that minimum standard? According to this, http://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/504 ... ermany-get, an average asylum claimant in Germany receives 408 Euros plus paid rent and health insurance per month. You do realize that this cannot be the standard as it's above the average wages in several eastern European EU members? And if the migrants were allowed go go where they want, what would Germany do then? I don't believe for a second that Greece or the eastern EU members are their desired destination.
310, 319, 320, 321, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9339
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Denmark to banish foreign convicted criminals to deserted island

Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:16 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
You have an immigration program similar to Canada? That's news to me, but again, I'm glad to be corrected if I'm wrong. That said, I know at least one EU member where is virtually impossible to immigrate and where even family reunification is a major pain.


Each member has its own system, some are better, some are worse. Germany had its last shot at a proper immigration law 10+ years ago and fucked that up quite nicely when it was put to a vote. But that failure is being too strict for people we want to come here, not with finding reasons to send someone home.

Actually, sanctions against the countries where the migrants are departing from would be a good start (I'm not talking about the real ME war refugees now).


I am all for it, believe me. The brick wall that ends at is the fact that sending people back requires the consent of the receiving state. They tend to insist those people are not their citizens and refuse taking them back.... so unfortunately their is a but more diplomacy involved. Do i think we are going about it too soft? Hell yeah. But do I know enough of the details to know better than the state department? Mmm... I don't think so.

But the asylum seekers that do cause most of the problem, those that really do have really high crime rates, happen to be specifically those countries that make such kind of trouble. Northern African governments are really assholes when it comes to that.

After all, human trafficking is a crime and aiding traffickers is a crime too.


I think money flows may make an interesting target.

And yes, force the boats back could be necessary at least for start.


Can't to that. Seriously can't, courts would shut that down faster than they can yell "turn your boat around".

I believe you misunderstood me. I'm talking about removing the reasons for mass emigration. But in the current world it won't happen.


In that case I did in deed misunderstand. I am all for it, but what is the magic bullet? I know economic development and education helps, but that is hard to force from the outside.

Tens of thousands within short period of time? Not easy and expensive. And you still have to deal with people who don't want to go back.


When I used to work at an airport I boarded my fair share of those in ties....

Processing asylum applications is Germany's internal procedure and nobody has the means to sabotage it.


Starting to bus people by the tens of thousands put a pretty rugged wooden shoe into that machinery. There are limits how fast you can expand that system, after all due process has to be kept intact.

In long the idea is that all EU members should offer a minimum standard of care for asylum seekers. If they where allowed to go where they wanted to, instead of being required to apply on their first EU stop


The question is what is that minimum standard? According to this, http://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/504 ... ermany-get, an average asylum claimant in Germany receives 408 Euros plus paid rent and health insurance per month. You do realize that this cannot be the standard as it's above the average wages in several eastern European EU members?

The minimum standard is whatever the social net in that country delivers to its own citizens in a comparable situation. The minima for those are set by the applicable treaties and conventions.
408€ is nothing with costs of living considered.



Being a denied asylum seeker in Germany doesn't get you very far, Germany is pretty strict about that, and even if they can't be send back, the don't get the nice deal an accepted refugee gets. They may end up sleeping in a dorm, getting food and emergency healthcare, and a 41 Euro/month pocket money. And all that while they check every 3 month if they can send you home. There are way to get from there to staying permanently, but those that accomplish that are desirable, since they have to be well integrated (having a job, decent command of language, no criminal record).

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bananaboy, bunumuring, ChrisKen, drew777, petertenthije and 15 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos