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DeltaMD90
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What's going on in France??

Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:12 am

So obviously I can use the Google, so I have a bit of background on this, but I'd love to hear our beloved members (especially the French ones) weigh in. Courtesy of the "failing" NYT: ;)

A third weekend of nationwide protests by the movement, largely made up of working-class people angry about a planned increase in fuel taxes and their dwindling purchasing power, left burned cars and smashed store windows in several of the wealthiest neighborhoods of Paris. The movement is named for the high-visibility safety vests that motorists are supposed to wear when they have roadside breakdowns.

Broken glass and empty tear gas canisters fired by the police littered the city, where hundreds of vandals joined the ranks of the protesters. One person died in the unrest this weekend outside Paris, bringing to three the number of casualties on the margins of the demonstrations over the last three weekends of protests.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/02/worl ... tests.html

Now time to put on the flamesuit... I don't care what movement it is, when you're rioting (as opposed to peacefully protesting,) graffitiing/vandalizing, blocking traffic (a huge pet peeve of mine,) I find it almost impossible to support it. It really delegitimizes the movement, and it takes a lot (at least for me) to remember that a lot of the people aren't being obnoxious and the movement's goal overall may still be just.

But for anyone that may ever protest: don't be obnoxious! Screw lawless behavior! Don't derail your own message!

When you have a bunch of aggressive rioters, I feel no sympathy when the police gas them, beat them with batons, throw them in jail, etc. Yeah, sue me. DeltaMD90 for a police state (sarcasm)

So, to our Parisians and French posters, what is it like over there?? Do you support the movement? I know the French are known for a good ol' strike or demonstration, but it usually doesn't get this wild (right?), what gives? Would you torch some innocent person's car to send a message? ;)
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What's going on in France??

Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:16 am

As a good friend used to say about France, “a country with balls, when they protest or strike, they burn the place down.”

GF
 
seb146
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Re: What's going on in France??

Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:27 am

I lived south of Seattle when the WTO held their conference there. 1998 or 1999, I think. The riots were horrible but they were confined to a small area of downtown Seattle. Space Needle was open. I wonder if these protests are similar, confined to a small area of Paris?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Aesma
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Re: What's going on in France??

Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:36 am

Nobody knows what's going on, not even the protesters themselves. When asked what they want, you get a litany of proposals that go against each other, like wanting less/no taxes, and more public services/free stuff. Some want less "free handouts", while being themselves the main beneficiaries of these handouts !

Everytime a "representative" of the protesters get his/her head out to talk to some government official, other protesters dismiss him/her as not representating anyone.

As for the rioters, they have nothing to do with the protest, at least initially. They're far left and far right youth just there to have fun, in fact they're less and less politically motivated, chaos is their motivation. The difference with usual protests is that they receive some support from the peaceful protesters, and even manage to get some to join them. Of course when law enforcement decides to try and grab some of them, only the latter get caught. So you end up with someone earning 8000€/month (very high salary) in Switzerland (!) having to explain to a court why he was rioting in Paris
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: What's going on in France??

Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:46 am

seb146 wrote:
I lived south of Seattle when the WTO held their conference there. 1998 or 1999, I think. The riots were horrible but they were confined to a small area of downtown Seattle. Space Needle was open. I wonder if these protests are similar, confined to a small area of Paris?


There is a map there : http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2018/ ... -paris.php

It's mainly around the Champs Elysées, near the centers of power : Elysée palace, Palais Bourbon (National Assembly), Senate. All of these were very well protected and protesters couldn't get near them. The Champs Elysées were also well protected (unlike the previous Saturday) however as a consequence it's all the streets around that took a beating.

I drove by Avenue Foch, the Arc the Triomphe and then Avenue de Friedland Sunday morning and saw burned cars and mopeds all along, with shops and banks vandalized also.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
ltbewr
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Re: What's going on in France??

Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:21 am

Violent protests, with vandalism of a critical symbol of France at the Arc de Triumph, will hurt the protesters more that help them in their reasons.

The taxes on diesel fuel are being raised to make it higher in price than gasoline to discourage use for larger global climate change but as in cities like Paris, the substantial increase in diesel engine cars and almost all commercial vehicles, has caused massive unhealthy conditions from particulates from diesel fuel. Along with the fraud by companies like Volkswagen to pass Euro standards so real life pollution much higher, possible bans of diesel powered cars and light commercial vehicles in some city centers, increasing and more expensive Euro 6 vehicle pollution standards and from that, hurting resale values of diesel, encourages some anger on the government.

The significant numbers of immigrants, legal and illegal, including from Syria, adjacent areas of he Middle East, former colonies in Africa, have meant large increases in social welfare costs causing resentment by many working class persons get stuck with increases in the already very high income tax rates while their wages are stagnate or declining as jobs being lost to Eastern EC countries and of course, China.

The cost of housing and cost of living increasing due to many rich non--French nationals buying properties for security, investment and to launder their wealth.

Macron has some serious stuff to deal with, likely the right wingers will put pressure on him to get tough with the immigrants, some to control the protesters and reverse the diesel tax increase. He may have to 'blink' for him and his party to stay in power.
 
seb146
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Re: What's going on in France??

Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:37 am

Blame the immigrants. Years of poor budgeting and trickle down economics, the end result is "blame the immigrants". Sad.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What's going on in France??

Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:53 pm

So, the French working man should take another hit in taxes and quality of life, by letting illegal immigrants into the country? Got it.

GF
 
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Aesma
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Re: What's going on in France??

Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:30 pm

Frankly while the protesters favor the far right I've not heard even one mention immigration. The far right lately has had far left economic proposals and that's mostly what we hear, increase the minimum wage by 10 or 20 or 50%, increase benefits, tax the rich, etc.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Airstud
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Re: What's going on in France??

Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:32 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
So obviously I can use the Google, so I have a bit of background on this, but I'd love to hear our beloved members (especially the French ones) weigh in. Courtesy of the "failing" NYT: ;)

A third weekend of nationwide protests by the movement, largely made up of working-class people angry about a planned increase in fuel taxes and their dwindling purchasing power, left burned cars and smashed store windows in several of the wealthiest neighborhoods of Paris. The movement is named for the high-visibility safety vests that motorists are supposed to wear when they have roadside breakdowns.

Broken glass and empty tear gas canisters fired by the police littered the city, where hundreds of vandals joined the ranks of the protesters. One person died in the unrest this weekend outside Paris, bringing to three the number of casualties on the margins of the demonstrations over the last three weekends of protests.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/02/worl ... tests.html

Now time to put on the flamesuit... I don't care what movement it is, when you're rioting (as opposed to peacefully protesting,) graffitiing/vandalizing, blocking traffic (a huge pet peeve of mine,) I find it almost impossible to support it. It really delegitimizes the movement, and it takes a lot (at least for me) to remember that a lot of the people aren't being obnoxious and the movement's goal overall may still be just.

But for anyone that may ever protest: don't be obnoxious! Screw lawless behavior! Don't derail your own message!

When you have a bunch of aggressive rioters, I feel no sympathy when the police gas them, beat them with batons, throw them in jail, etc. Yeah, sue me. DeltaMD90 for a police state (sarcasm)

So, to our Parisians and French posters, what is it like over there?? Do you support the movement? I know the French are known for a good ol' strike or demonstration, but it usually doesn't get this wild (right?), what gives? Would you torch some innocent person's car to send a message? ;)



Sometimes farting in their general direction just isn't enough...
Pancakes are delicious.
 
SCQ83
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Re: What's going on in France??

Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:22 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
So, the French working man should take another hit in taxes and quality of life, by letting illegal immigrants into the country? Got it.


I don't think this has a lot to do (directly) with illegal immigrants.

It is more a clash of two countries:

- People living in Paris like Macron that want to ban or make more expensive diesel fuel (btw diesel is extremely popular in France for cars and everything in agriculture uses diesel). Because diesel pollutes and it is not fancy for a Paris of Renault Zoes (the French electric car), Teslas, Nissan Leafs, Ubers, tramways and share-scheme bicycles. Of course rising diesel prices is not a concern for most Parisians which have a good network of public transportation and don't drive a lot (or they just don't have a car).

- People in the "provinces" that are already living month by month (high taxes) and for whom diesel is a need (for their cars to go to work or working tools, e.g. farmers) for whom the previous speech is insulting.

So it is about elites (Macron is a former Rothschild banker) that do not understand and do not want to understand what is happening in the rest of the country far away from their globalised city (Paris). Not very different from New Yorkers or the Bay Area that don't understand that people in Texas or Oklahoma vote Trump massively. And instead of trying to understand the reasons, they just call them "rednecks" making things worse.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: What's going on in France??

Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:09 pm

Looks like Macron caved to the protesters and sacrificed the Climate to pander to the loudmouths. So much for the Paris Accord, :roll:

"Macron makes U-turn on fuel-tax increases in face of 'yellow vest' protests"
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fran ... SKBN1O30MX
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: What's going on in France??

Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:34 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Looks like Macron caved to the protesters and sacrificed the Climate to pander to the loudmouths. So much for the Paris Accord, :roll:

"Macron makes U-turn on fuel-tax increases in face of 'yellow vest' protests"
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fran ... SKBN1O30MX

Well if Obamacare in the US taught me anything, "steps in the right direction" and accepting that the little guy will be better off in the long run often doesn't end well. Fact is, this fuel tax is hurting a lot of poorer, rural citizens, and when their lives are being affected negatively they really don't care about steps in the right direction or doing what is probably best overall for one day in the future.

I'm not saying to give up on the climate. And the lawlessness many displayed irks me to no end and I'm upset that it seems to have been rewarded somewhat. But many are hurting due to these taxes... being smug about it because it (probably) doesn't affect you leads to things like a French Trump (his victory was particularly contributed by little guys down on their luck fed up with smug liberals)
 
anrec80
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Re: What's going on in France??

Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:25 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Looks like Macron caved to the protesters and sacrificed the Climate to pander to the loudmouths. So much for the Paris Accord, :roll:

"Macron makes U-turn on fuel-tax increases in face of 'yellow vest' protests"
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fran ... SKBN1O30MX

Well if Obamacare in the US taught me anything, "steps in the right direction" and accepting that the little guy will be better off in the long run often doesn't end well. Fact is, this fuel tax is hurting a lot of poorer, rural citizens, and when their lives are being affected negatively they really don't care about steps in the right direction or doing what is probably best overall for one day in the future.

I'm not saying to give up on the climate. And the lawlessness many displayed irks me to no end and I'm upset that it seems to have been rewarded somewhat. But many are hurting due to these taxes... being smug about it because it (probably) doesn't affect you leads to things like a French Trump (his victory was particularly contributed by little guys down on their luck fed up with smug liberals)


Well - it’s interesting development. Now there’s more to it. Protesters now demand Macron and government resignation. And it all is radicalizing - just as any other extended protest does.

It’s funny that France supported Kiev Maidan, but French government doesn’t quite like one in Paris. Well, nobody will really understand Macron in Rostov. And Putin will not provide military aid, no. Regardless how nicely asked.
 
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Aesma
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Re: What's going on in France??

Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:15 pm

It's a strange protest though, only on Saturdays, then on Sundays they recover, and on Mondays they go back to work, or on roundabouts for those without a job. It's not a great situation for the country, but it's not how the current French political system will end either. Macron's support has eroded for sure, but most of these people hadn't voted for him anyway.

The government is working on ways to increase the minimum wage a little, get companies to pay for a Christmas bonus, and all should end before said Christmas.

In other news it seems the Belgian government has fallen, I'll let you look into what caused it.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: What's going on in France??

Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:26 am

Aesma wrote:

In other news it seems the Belgian government has fallen, I'll let you look into what caused it.


I blame not having FPTP voting.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: What's going on in France??

Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:42 am

SCQ83 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
So, the French working man should take another hit in taxes and quality of life, by letting illegal immigrants into the country? Got it.


I don't think this has a lot to do (directly) with illegal immigrants.

It is more a clash of two countries:

- People living in Paris like Macron that want to ban or make more expensive diesel fuel (btw diesel is extremely popular in France for cars and everything in agriculture uses diesel). Because diesel pollutes and it is not fancy for a Paris of Renault Zoes (the French electric car), Teslas, Nissan Leafs, Ubers, tramways and share-scheme bicycles. Of course rising diesel prices is not a concern for most Parisians which have a good network of public transportation and don't drive a lot (or they just don't have a car).

- People in the "provinces" that are already living month by month (high taxes) and for whom diesel is a need (for their cars to go to work or working tools, e.g. farmers) for whom the previous speech is insulting.

So it is about elites (Macron is a former Rothschild banker) that do not understand and do not want to understand what is happening in the rest of the country far away from their globalised city (Paris). Not very different from New Yorkers or the Bay Area that don't understand that people in Texas or Oklahoma vote Trump massively. And instead of trying to understand the reasons, they just call them "rednecks" making things worse.


This has become the issue of our time - massive gulf in values between metropolitan centers, where people are familiar with a multiculti, somewhat meritocratic way of life - and the hinterlands where people take pride in very different things. Metropolitan centers largely drive GDP, so it's impossible for the latter group to improve their political power, even with greater numbers. I don't see any solution in sight without better education.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Flighty
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Re: What's going on in France??

Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

You should ask yourself, are the French voters from 1990 better off today than they were then? If they are worse off today, why the hell did they vote for the people they voted for? Decisions today are about future events. Today’s events are the result of decisions yesterday. Democracy normally would be expected to defend the interests and well being of the voters. If not, it means the voters have been tricked / robbed. In that case, they should be very angry. When promises are broken, careful note needs to be taken, and applied to promises heard today.
Last edited by Flighty on Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What's going on in France??

Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:33 am

Aaron747 wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
So, the French working man should take another hit in taxes and quality of life, by letting illegal immigrants into the country? Got it.


I don't think this has a lot to do (directly) with illegal immigrants.

It is more a clash of two countries:

- People living in Paris like Macron that want to ban or make more expensive diesel fuel (btw diesel is extremely popular in France for cars and everything in agriculture uses diesel). Because diesel pollutes and it is not fancy for a Paris of Renault Zoes (the French electric car), Teslas, Nissan Leafs, Ubers, tramways and share-scheme bicycles. Of course rising diesel prices is not a concern for most Parisians which have a good network of public transportation and don't drive a lot (or they just don't have a car).

- People in the "provinces" that are already living month by month (high taxes) and for whom diesel is a need (for their cars to go to work or working tools, e.g. farmers) for whom the previous speech is insulting.

So it is about elites (Macron is a former Rothschild banker) that do not understand and do not want to understand what is happening in the rest of the country far away from their globalised city (Paris). Not very different from New Yorkers or the Bay Area that don't understand that people in Texas or Oklahoma vote Trump massively. And instead of trying to understand the reasons, they just call them "rednecks" making things worse.


This has become the issue of our time - massive gulf in values between metropolitan centers, where people are familiar with a multiculti, somewhat meritocratic way of life - and the hinterlands where people take pride in very different things. Metropolitan centers largely drive GDP, so it's impossible for the latter group to improve their political power, even with greater numbers. I don't see any solution in sight without better education.


Hence, the wisdom of the American system where minority voices can be heard thru the functions of the Senate and the Electoral College.

GF
 
johnboy
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Re: What's going on in France??

Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:21 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Hence, the wisdom of the American system where minority voices can be heard thru the functions of the Senate and the Electoral College.

GF


If only the Electoral College functioned as intended, and isn’t a rubber stamp.
 
anrec80
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Re: What's going on in France??

Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:34 am

Aesma wrote:
It's a strange protest though, only on Saturdays, then on Sundays they recover, and on Mondays they go back to work, or on roundabouts for those without a job. It's not a great situation for the country, but it's not how the current French political system will end either. Macron's support has eroded for sure, but most of these people hadn't voted for him anyway.

The government is working on ways to increase the minimum wage a little, get companies to pay for a Christmas bonus, and all should end before said Christmas.

In other news it seems the Belgian government has fallen, I'll let you look into what caused it.


Typical maidan-style coup techniques in action. First, protesters demand some little things. Once the Government yields, their demands keep increasing, until they replace the whole government and president. Significantly weakening the very statehood along the way of course. I think the government's decision to remove tax increases was at least untimely, and doing so in the middle of protests was certainly a big mistake. Maidan learning - first you suppress the protests and regain the control over the situation, and then you go about analyzing what caused this and what needs to be done. And - if necessary, suppress by brute military force.
 
anrec80
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Re: What's going on in France??

Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:16 am

Flighty wrote:
You should ask yourself, are the French voters from 1990 better off today than they were then? If they are worse off today, why the hell did they vote for the people they voted for? Decisions today are about future events. Today’s events are the result of decisions yesterday. Democracy normally would be expected to defend the interests and well being of the voters. If not, it means the voters have been tricked / robbed. In that case, they should be very angry. When promises are broken, careful note needs to be taken, and applied to promises heard today.


Well - in every Western country middle class today is worse off than that in 1990. These are global trends, and not a whole lot one President or a Mayor can do about that.

Speaking of tricking voters - political science has made a lot of progress in that. Electoral campaigns cost more and more, breaking one record after the other. This money doesn't come from average Joes, of course. So yes, the voters are getting tricked, robbed, pitched rotten BS - all of those are valid. You simply won't get enough financial resources to run your campaign relying on average Joes. And even then, if you didn't strike any deals with elite, you'll simply be cornered and removed from active duties at best, if not just maidan'ed out. But even this is not the worst.

These protests certainly are well staged and organized. Obviously, it costs a lot of money to provide organization in social networks, perhaps transportation, have organizers and professional rioters in the crowd. Yes, in Europe there are people who are trained for that and are doing it for money, often allocated as "freedom and democracy grants". Paid out of taxpayers money, businesses as "donations to NGOs". Europe is stuffed with all of this. Hence these "yellow vests" may be just used by someone in pursuit of their own agenda. Hence - you look at who is benefiting from such pressure on European governments, both inside and outside of the countries.

These things could as well be beneficial to some French business groups, who are trying to pressure Macron. In USA and UK there are divisions in diplomatic services (Foreign Office, State Dept.) who specialize on organizing such "protests", have infrastructure of NGOs funded by them and controlled by them, "youth camps" where they train fighters for police standoff, etc. It very well may be that these people, who are genuinely protesting against dropping living standards, are simply being used to show Macron and other European leaders their true place. USA aren't happy that Europe wants to trade more in Euros and see treat to American economy in such moves. UK obviously screwed all their Brexit negotiations and may be trying to negotiate a better deal. They both utilize a vulnerability point of Western European states. Such is reality.
 
sevenair
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Re: What's going on in France??

Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:33 pm

What’s going on is that the working classes are continually lectured sneered at and looked down at by people who claim to be fighting for them when in reality the complete opposite is the case. Policies ruin working class communities yet liberal dominated politicians hijack the cause for their own self promotion. In the US it was Trump. In the UK it’s brexit. In France it’s tearing up Paris. They’re listening now. For too long the flyover states in the US, all of us north of Watford in the UK and ordinary working people outside of Paris have been ignored, looked down up and sneered at. Liberals are no longer in control. We are taking back our respective countries and you’ll see more of this in the years to come.
Diversity is our strength. Unless it's diversity of opinion, then anything is fair game.
 
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stl07
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Re: What's going on in France??

Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:18 pm

^^It's not real "conservatives" or "flyover country people" that are doing these protests, its the youth and others watching "alternative media" and getting brainwashed by it, and start rioting against the very institutions that help them.

I went on the Alex Jones site one day and could believe how much of a separate reality these "alternative" people lived in
 
sevenair
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Re: What's going on in France??

Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:10 pm

Well it’s not the champagne sipping urbanistas tearing up the streets. It’s real countryside dwellers and in France it’s the working classes and lower middle who are squeezed. Liberals sneer at them but both sides of the political spectrum have come together to reject Macron’s evil globalist agenda. The reality that these “alternative” people is likely very different from your own if I’m to make assumptions about you and your personal circumstances. This is not an Alex Jones conspiracy. This is real life ordinary hard working people outside of the Paris bubble.
Diversity is our strength. Unless it's diversity of opinion, then anything is fair game.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: What's going on in France??

Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:44 pm

sevenair wrote:
What’s going on is that the working classes are continually lectured sneered at and looked down at by people who claim to be fighting for them when in reality the complete opposite is the case. Policies ruin working class communities yet liberal dominated politicians hijack the cause for their own self promotion. In the US it was Trump.

Not to defend Trump but I think he was actually the result of the working class (that often voted Dem) getting all pissed at the liberal ruling class saying they're "for them" but ended up hurting them in some ways.

Now I'm not saying Trump was the answer, nor am I saying he is fighting for the little guy selflessly, but I learned from the last adminstration that "steps in the right direction" and "it'll eventually work correctly/it should have worked correctly but isn't" may make sense to a lot of us, but to people that are struggling paycheck to paycheck and saw their healthcare rise under the ACA, it doesn't matter the intention, only the results.
(Sorry for the run-on sentence)

Maybe I'm way off the mark, but I see similarities to what's happening in France. Sure diesel taxes will help us go green, is better for the future, will help people out eventually, etc. But many of these protesters don't care about the internation because they're hurting while the ruling class isn't
 
NIKV69
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Re: What's going on in France??

Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:52 pm

Wow Video on liveleak of a protester who blows his hand off trying to throw a grenade back at police. Ouch.
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: What's going on in France??

Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:35 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Wow Video on liveleak of a protester who blows his hand off trying to throw a grenade back at police. Ouch.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Just saw the video... Fire burning nearby, probably some poor innocent person's car lit on fire for no reason. Violence... pointless. You really do disservice to your cause when you act like a lawless idiot

I'm all for peaceful, lawful protest, but when you're getting violent and obnoxious I have no problem with the police swarming in and administering beatdown (metaphorically of course, only enough gas, tasers, batons, etc to subdue)

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