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DIRECTFLT
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Dec. 7, 1941

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:12 pm

Dec. 7th, 1941, A date which will live in infamy . . .

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To recent to forget.
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Tugger
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Re: Dec. 7, 1941

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:53 pm

It was a terrible day, a big event in the history of the USA. I am sure a debate will begin as to the "how and why" it happened but the fact still is it was a surprise attack on the people in Hawaii that day.

And amazingly out of the enemies of world war two came some the strongest free nations.

A day to remember.

Tugg
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NIKV69
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Re: Dec. 7, 1941

Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:00 pm

God Bless all that fought that day against huge odds. I will never forget.
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STT757
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Re: Dec. 7, 1941

Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:28 pm

Ten years ago I got to visit Pearl Harbor and the USS Arizona memorial, while the memorial is beautiful what really made the connection for me was looking into the water and see the oil slick still seeping out of the haul.
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WarRI1
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Re: Dec. 7, 1941

Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:09 am

A new Museum in R.I. will receive a piece of the Arizona Superstructure that has been stored in Hawaii since the war by the Navy. It is about five feet long.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Ken777
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Re: Dec. 7, 1941

Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:51 am

When I was in the Navy we stopped at Pearl on the start of our first two WestPac tours and I was able to see the Memorial every day. I was married and transferred to a DDG out of Pearl Harbor before the 3rd Deployment so I was able to take my wife to the Memorial. She was born in Dundee and her father was in the RAF serving on a Lancaster out of Burma so she was more than aware of war - especially after her Father died when she was 6 from lung disease and her Mother was designated a War Widow.

When were look back at this day in 1941 it is appropriate to remember that we do need a strong military, and that is going to take tax revenues to fund our needs. Trump's tax cuts for the Billionaire's Boy's Club and the Corporate Cuts does more to hurt our military than we can imagine. It's really odd to me because we cannot replace battleships and cruisers overnight, nor can we develop the needed training and experience in personnel, from the boot enlisted to the fresh face JG to Chiefs and Captains & Admirals. Cutting the Navy also meant cutting experience and talent.

As we remember the suffering on this day in 1941 let's start thinking about the needs we will have in the future. We get a clearer picture of our needs for the future when we look forward from the past.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Dec. 7, 1941

Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:54 am

Ken777 wrote:
When I was in the Navy we stopped at Pearl on the start of our first two WestPac tours and I was able to see the Memorial every day. I was married and transferred to a DDG out of Pearl Harbor before the 3rd Deployment so I was able to take my wife to the Memorial. She was born in Dundee and her father was in the RAF serving on a Lancaster out of Burma so she was more than aware of war - especially after her Father died when she was 6 from lung disease and her Mother was designated a War Widow.

When were look back at this day in 1941 it is appropriate to remember that we do need a strong military, and that is going to take tax revenues to fund our needs. Trump's tax cuts for the Billionaire's Boy's Club and the Corporate Cuts does more to hurt our military than we can imagine. It's really odd to me because we cannot replace battleships and cruisers overnight, nor can we develop the needed training and experience in personnel, from the boot enlisted to the fresh face JG to Chiefs and Captains & Admirals. Cutting the Navy also meant cutting experience and talent.

As we remember the suffering on this day in 1941 let's start thinking about the needs we will have in the future. We get a clearer picture of our needs for the future when we look forward from the past.



I agree and well said. :checkmark:
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Dec. 7, 1941

Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:58 am

https://www.apnews.com/c7de15b363234fa5af24b5c1bff68de2


A long time to come home to the families.
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Dutchy
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Re: Dec. 7, 1941

Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:49 am

May I offer some perspective? I understand that the Pearl Haber attack pulled America into WWII. But why was is such a traumatic event? Objectively I would say, they attacked a military target and sunk a couple of ships and yes, 2.400 people died in that attack. Terrible, yes, but hardly the most in one day and certainly not the damage sustained in one day in that war and certainly not by a civilian population.

For example, the direct reason why The Netherlands capitulated, against overwhelming Nazi forces, was that the NAZI's bombed the city center of Rotterdam and flattened the city (14th of may 1940):

Image

Image

It killed almost 1.000 people and made 80.000 people homeless and riped the heart out of the city, which still has a huge impact on the city today.

In the Netherlands that day isn't remembered all that much, but the caputilation of the NAZI's, May 5th, 1945, the end of the war, is celibrated each year. So mmay I asked why this day is remembered so much in America, but I don't recall, but I might be wrong, Americans don't remember the day the NAZI's capitulated or Japan capitulated all that much and do not realy celibrated it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Tugger
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Re: Dec. 7, 1941

Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
May I offer some perspective? I understand that the Pearl Haber attack pulled America into WWII. But why was is such a traumatic event? Objectively I would say, they attacked a military target and sunk a couple of ships and yes, 2.400 people died in that attack. Terrible, yes, but hardly the most in one day and certainly not the damage sustained in one day in that war and certainly not by a civilian population.

For example, the direct reason why The Netherlands capitulated, against overwhelming Nazi forces, was that the NAZI's bombed the city center of Rotterdam and flattened the city (14th of may 1940):

Image

Image

It killed almost 1.000 people and made 80.000 people homeless and riped the heart out of the city, which still has a huge impact on the city today.

In the Netherlands that day isn't remembered all that much, but the caputilation of the NAZI's, May 5th, 1945, the end of the war, is celibrated each year. So mmay I asked why this day is remembered so much in America, but I don't recall, but I might be wrong, Americans don't remember the day the NAZI's capitulated or Japan capitulated all that much and do not realy celibrated it.

Not quite sure the purpose of this post? Definitely not a competition or a time to compare one country's war loss versus another. Perspective is fine but to me this thread is really just to remember and mark/honor this day in history for our nation.

Also December 7th isn't a celebrated day in the USA now, so long after WWII. It is almost forgotten as far as I can tell, a side note on news programs or websites. It is mentioned as an event that occurred in the past now, whereas a few decades ago it was definitely remembered as the triggering event that brought the USA into WWII which was a big deal as that brought millions of US men and women into the fight with global enemies and their death. And obviously that "we won" made the bombing the beginning of a march toward victory versus something sadder as was experienced by nations that were forced to capitulate.

As to V-Day and VJ-Day, they too were at one time well celebrated in the USA but not any more. Now they are marked mostly on Memorial Day as part of that day's remembrance of past wars and those who died in them, and on the actual days of the respective event, they are now just noted in news stories as an event that happened "on this day in history". Just as Pearl Harbour day is mostly. (Different locations in the USA may celebrate them differently based on how directly impacted they were by those days events.) Also remember that the USA has newer generations of "war veterans" due the Korean, Vietnam, Gulf and Afghan wars that have fresher memories of their battles.

As the WWII veterans have died and the collective memory of the war has faded all the events of that war and the "days" associated with the war have also faded. Me, I am and was fascinated by WWII as experienced by the USA. From the Pacific war to the battle of the Atlantic to the freeing of a battle torn and worn Europe. The battles, the ships, and machines, the stories of the people that fought to be free. It was a big part of my "learning of the world" growing up. It was made that more real to me by stories my parents shared from their youth of being bombed or hiding from Nazi's.

It was a huge and terrible event. And I am saddened that so many have essentially forgotten about it, and many of the hard learned lessons appear forgotten by current generations of people and leadership.

And I think that is what this thread is about, why is it important: We need to remember.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Dec. 7, 1941

Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:42 pm

Dutchy wrote:
But why was is such a traumatic event?

I'll answer but will no doubt get jumped on by the usual.

Because then and as now, the collective US pysche is incorrectly taught to believe they're practically untouchable in the homeland. Of course, no one would want to harm the homeland in anyway because 'Murcia is so great'. So when it happens, it's a struggle to grasp the reality, hence the elevated levels of collective 'shock'. eg: Pearl, 9/11, Russian Meddling etc etc
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Dec. 7, 1941

Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:57 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
But why was is such a traumatic event?

I'll answer but will no doubt get jumped on by the usual.

Because then and as now, the collective US pysche is incorrectly taught to believe they're practically untouchable in the homeland. Of course, no one would want to harm the homeland in anyway because 'Murcia is so great'. So when it happens, it's a struggle to grasp the reality, hence the elevated levels of collective 'shock'. eg: Pearl, 9/11, Russian Meddling etc etc


I think that would be a good explanation.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Dec. 7, 1941

Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:02 pm

Tugger wrote:
It was a huge and terrible event. And I am saddened that so many have essentially forgotten about it, and many of the hard learned lessons appear forgotten by current generations of people and leadership.

And I think that is what this thread is about, why is it important: We need to remember.


Sure, it was a trigger to propel the US into WWII. But what is the hard lesson that should have been learned and has been forgotten about? And what should be done with it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Ken777
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Re: Dec. 7, 1941

Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:09 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
But why was is such a traumatic event?

I'll answer but will no doubt get jumped on by the usual.

Because then and as now, the collective US pysche is incorrectly taught to believe they're practically untouchable in the homeland. Of course, no one would want to harm the homeland in anyway because 'Murcia is so great'. So when it happens, it's a struggle to grasp the reality, hence the elevated levels of collective 'shock'. eg: Pearl, 9/11, Russian Meddling etc etc



At the time of the attack the 'homeland" was sufficiently isolated by distance to be very protected. Hawaii obviously did not have the same level of isolation in relation to Japan's Navy. The trauma came not only from the loss of 2,400 but also from the loss of the Battleships. Fortunately the Carriers were at sea on that day or the devastation would have been far greater. The us also had a lot of people who believed in the isolation and were strongly against getting into the war. Those anti-war sentiments resulted in a Lend Lease program as the only way to deliver supplies to our "friends".
 
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cjg225
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Re: Dec. 7, 1941

Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
May I offer some perspective? I understand that the Pearl Haber attack pulled America into WWII. But why was is such a traumatic event? Objectively I would say, they attacked a military target and sunk a couple of ships and yes, 2.400 people died in that attack. Terrible, yes, but hardly the most in one day and certainly not the damage sustained in one day in that war and certainly not by a civilian population.

In the Netherlands that day isn't remembered all that much, but the caputilation of the NAZI's, May 5th, 1945, the end of the war, is celibrated each year. So mmay I asked why this day is remembered so much in America, but I don't recall, but I might be wrong, Americans don't remember the day the NAZI's capitulated or Japan capitulated all that much and do not realy celibrated it.

It's a day of solemn remembrance, much like Memorial Day or 9/11. It was probably the single most important turning point for the United States as a country between our Civil War to 9/11, a span of almost 140 years.

Why would it be any less traumatic that it was a military target? We weren't at war that morning. Should our forces have been in a higher state of alert? Okay, that's a debatable point. But the bottom line is that we were not a belligerent at that time and our military personnel had a fairly reasonable expectation that morning that it wouldn't be the day that they were fired upon by a hostile nation and killed.

And I think you're overrstating how much it's remembered anymore. There was close to no real discussion of it in the media yesterday. There was a healthy bit more 2 years ago for the 75th anniversary, but yesterday, for the 77th, there really was next to nothing. Around the web there were a few articles about the few remaining living veterans or rehashes of old stories, but for the most part, it wasn't really "remembered" much.
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WIederling
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Re: Dec. 7, 1941

Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:48 am

Dutchy wrote:
Tugger wrote:
It was a huge and terrible event. And I am saddened that so many have essentially forgotten about it, and many of the hard learned lessons appear forgotten by current generations of people and leadership.

And I think that is what this thread is about, why is it important: We need to remember.


Sure, it was a trigger to propel the US into WWII. But what is the hard lesson that should have been learned and has been forgotten about? And what should be done with it.


WWII in Europe and the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor both had a longrunning setup period.
No real surprises and probably intentional.

Only the uneducated at home were surprised.
Murphy is an optimist

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