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CitizenJustin
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CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:14 pm

Over 7,000 people in several European nations were polled in September, 2018. Here’s a few concerning standouts....

55% of Germans believe anti-semtism is a growing problem, along with 44% in France.
28% believe Jews have too much influence over finance and business.
34% between the ages of 18-34 know little about the Holocaust, or have never heard of it. WHAT!!!
50% in Poland or 32% in total believe Jews use the Holocaust to advance position, or achieve certain goals.
16% believe Jews account for 20% of worlds population, when in reality, Jews make up less than 1%.

These figures are shocking, and the 18-34 figure seems to indicate a growing number are forgetting about one of modern histories most defining, and tragic moments. Are kids no longer taught about the Holocaust in school? There’s bound to be some forgetfulness as time passes, but this is unacceptable.

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/11 ... um=website
 
johns624
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:20 pm

Arabs are Semites, too.
 
salttee
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:54 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
Over 7,000 people in several European nations were polled in September, 2018. Here’s a few concerning standouts....

55% of Germans believe anti-semtism is a growing problem, along with 44% in France.
28% believe Jews have too much influence over finance and business.
34% between the ages of 18-34 know little about the Holocaust, or have never heard of it. WHAT!!!
50% in Poland or 32% in total believe Jews use the Holocaust to advance position, or achieve certain goals.
16% believe Jews account for 20% of worlds population, when in reality, Jews make up less than 1%.

These figures are shocking, and the 18-34 figure seems to indicate a growing number are forgetting about one of modern histories most defining, and tragic moments. Are kids no longer taught about the Holocaust in school? There’s bound to be some forgetfulness as time passes, but this is unacceptable.

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/11 ... um=website

I don't see anything shocking in any of that.
55% of Germans believe anti-semtism is a growing problem, along with 44% in France.
This statistic merely reflects what the populace has been told by the media.

28% believe Jews have too much influence over finance and business.
This could be concerning but I have to ask how the question was presented to those surveyed and of course who were surveyed.
The whole survey reeks of confirmation bias IMO.

34% between the ages of 18-34 know little about the Holocaust, or have never heard of it.
This number is not believable and calls the whole survey into question. They laid in on a bit too thick with this one IMO.

50% in Poland or 32% in total believe Jews use the Holocaust to advance position, or achieve certain goals.
And 68% generally think the holocaust museums have no purpose? That seems a bit high.

16% believe Jews account for 20% of worlds population, when in reality, Jews make up less than 1%.
I have no doubt that 16% of Europe's' population believe that the Sept 11th attacks are fake news.
16% of the people can always be found to be seriously uninformed about any subject.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:25 pm

salttee wrote:
16% of the people can always be found to be seriously uninformed about any subject.

Even 1% is a bad number to have. That 16% can con the other 84% into believing their ideal or giving it a chance (especially if that 84% is tired of the status quo) and we end up with undemocratic leaders.

It probably explains the rise of so many nationalistic government with animosity towards other ethnic groups.

See Poland and Hungary as examples.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:25 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
16% believe Jews account for 20% of worlds population, when in reality, Jews make up less than 1%.

This is what I truly don't get--there are so few Jews and yet they're always portrayed as some sort of bogeyman (like Republicans insinuating they're letting in violent immigrants). Why? It's like blaming the population of Pennsylvania for all that is wrong in the world.
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:19 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
16% believe Jews account for 20% of worlds population, when in reality, Jews make up less than 1%.

This is what I truly don't get--there are so few Jews and yet they're always portrayed as some sort of bogeyman (like Republicans insinuating they're letting in violent immigrants). Why? It's like blaming the population of Pennsylvania for all that is wrong in the world.


I agree. People always have to have a boogeyman that’s secretly behind all of their problems.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:37 pm

55% of Germans believe anti-semtism is a growing problem, along with 44% in France.
> I too believe that anti-semtism is growing, in general, more extreme thoughts are growing in these times. We need to come together again and respect each other more. So this trend needs to be reversed.

28% believe Jews have too much influence over finance and business.
> Don't get this, what are people thinking. Jews are working together as a group or what? Of course not.
In general, there are more jews (cultural one) working in business than in civil service, so what?

34% between the ages of 18-34 know little about the Holocaust, or have never heard of it. WHAT!!!
> people need to know more about history in general. Holocaust needs to be taught, we need to understand what our forefathers have done.

50% in Poland or 32% in total believe Jews use the Holocaust to advance position, or achieve certain goals.
> I actually believe this too, but strike Jews and replace it with Israeli, two different things of course, but there are those whom don't make that distinction.

16% believe Jews account for 20% of worlds population, when in reality, Jews make up less than 1%.
> that is just stupid. Many people overestimate things. There was a survey in The Netherlands with the outcome that people believed that over 20% of the Dutch were out of work (actually is less than 5%) and the same for Moslims which also make up of less than five percent.

All in all, we need to remember more, I agree with you.
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:48 pm

salttee wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
Over 7,000 people in several European nations were polled in September, 2018. Here’s a few concerning standouts....

55% of Germans believe anti-semtism is a growing problem, along with 44% in France.
28% believe Jews have too much influence over finance and business.
34% between the ages of 18-34 know little about the Holocaust, or have never heard of it. WHAT!!!
50% in Poland or 32% in total believe Jews use the Holocaust to advance position, or achieve certain goals.
16% believe Jews account for 20% of worlds population, when in reality, Jews make up less than 1%.

These figures are shocking, and the 18-34 figure seems to indicate a growing number are forgetting about one of modern histories most defining, and tragic moments. Are kids no longer taught about the Holocaust in school? There’s bound to be some forgetfulness as time passes, but this is unacceptable.

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/11 ... um=website

I don't see anything shocking in any of that.
55% of Germans believe anti-semtism is a growing problem, along with 44% in France.
This statistic merely reflects what the populace has been told by the media.

28% believe Jews have too much influence over finance and business.
This could be concerning but I have to ask how the question was presented to those surveyed and of course who were surveyed.
The whole survey reeks of confirmation bias IMO.

34% between the ages of 18-34 know little about the Holocaust, or have never heard of it.
This number is not believable and calls the whole survey into question. They laid in on a bit too thick with this one IMO.

50% in Poland or 32% in total believe Jews use the Holocaust to advance position, or achieve certain goals.
And 68% generally think the holocaust museums have no purpose? That seems a bit high.

16% believe Jews account for 20% of worlds population, when in reality, Jews make up less than 1%.
I have no doubt that 16% of Europe's' population believe that the Sept 11th attacks are fake news.
16% of the people can always be found to be seriously uninformed about any subject.


You’re minimizing this issue.

The fact is, too many people hold ignorant views, period. Conspiracy theorists, extremists, and all the quacks that used to be on the fringes have found a comfortable spot in mainstream politics. You’re right about the media. The right-wing media has encouraged conspiracies, and fear mongering of minorities, which contributes to rising anti-semitism. Several European nations, as well as the U.S. have also reported a sharp rise in hate crimes, specifically against LGBT, and Muslims. I’m sure this isn’t shocking to you either? Minorities weathering the brunt of this beg to differ. It’s too easy for people who don’t experience discrimination to brush statistics off as exaggerations.

Ignorance, and the hatred spawned from it should be shocking to everyone. We should never grow complacent or accepting of it, unless we seek to repeat the past.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:57 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
16% believe Jews account for 20% of worlds population, when in reality, Jews make up less than 1%.

This is what I truly don't get--there are so few Jews and yet they're always portrayed as some sort of bogeyman (like Republicans insinuating they're letting in violent immigrants). Why? It's like blaming the population of Pennsylvania for all that is wrong in the world.


I agree. People always have to have a boogeyman that’s secretly behind all of their problems.

But why Jews? Why is rural Montana ground zero for anti semitism? I was just reading that in WWI the Brits thought a cabal of Jews were behind Bolshevism, the Germans, Pan-Turkism, of course Zionism, and somehow behind Muslim Arab revolts too...where does this all come from?
 
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trpmb6
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:58 pm

I don't believe right wing media is anti-semetic. Breitbart (a typical poster child of right-wing media) is run/owned by Jews and the editor in chief is Jew.
 
salttee
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:31 pm

@Justin
May I point out that you've left out Hispanics, women, blacks, native whatevers (including Palestinians), the Kurds, the Rohingya, the Tutsi and others too numerous to mention yet too tragic to be forgotten. I probably spend a proportionately excessive time lamenting the plight of the Palestinians, while others have their own private crusades.

I don't mean to rain on your parade but..........................

MaverickM11 wrote:
I was just reading that in WWI the Brits thought a cabal of Jews were behind Bolshevism

That's pretty much correct. And you weren't very far off with some of your other tidbits.
Last edited by salttee on Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
737307
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:33 pm

....or the Bosnians, exterminated by the Serbs (while the Dutch/EU looked away and did nothing).
 
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Dutchy
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:07 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
....or the Bosnians, exterminated by the Serbs (while the Dutch/EU looked away and did nothing).


Mainly UN, the Dutch were left alone......
 
737307
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
....or the Bosnians, exterminated by the Serbs (while the Dutch/EU looked away and did nothing).


Mainly UN, the Dutch were left alone......


True, but in the end "daddy Clinton" had to come to the rescue and do the dirty work for the Europeans (again).
 
MaverickM11
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:13 am

trpmb6 wrote:
I don't believe right wing media is anti-semetic. Breitbart (a typical poster child of right-wing media) is run/owned by Jews and the editor in chief is Jew.

The heart of Trumpism is taking what ever you deem yours by whatever means necessary, while screwing over anyone that has helped you in the process. That's why it dovetails so flawlessly with evangelicals. Breitbart would--and has--sold down river anyone that gets in the way of that insatiably greedy core value. You should look up Ben Shapiro's departure from Breitbart. Did any of its leaders stand up for him? Newp!
 
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seb146
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:05 am

trpmb6 wrote:
I don't believe right wing media is anti-semetic. Breitbart (a typical poster child of right-wing media) is run/owned by Jews and the editor in chief is Jew.


And, yet, white nationalists trust them more.

How is WWII taught in Europe? The invasion of North America in United States schools is taught that Europeans spread Christianity and commercialism across the land and made everything better. When the point of view of Natives or Scandinavians are shown or that Mexicans and Russians occupied North America also, that is where the modern day trouble starts.
 
tommy1808
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:25 am

salttee wrote:
34% between the ages of 18-34 know little about the Holocaust, or have never heard of it.
This number is not believable and calls the whole survey into question. They laid in on a bit too thick with this one IMO.


you just need to put the bar for knowing more than a little high enough and you will get 34% with almost every topic. "little or nothing" lumped in one group isn´t the way to sum up results in any case, those are two different groups. Probably the "Never hear of" group was small enough that it was not the message they wanted...

50% in Poland or 32% in total believe Jews use the Holocaust to advance position, or achieve certain goals.
And 68% generally think the holocaust museums have no purpose? That seems a bit high.


MMmm... what do those things have to do with it each other? Those museum don´t exactly get us to look the other way when Israel suppresses people in its occupied territory.....

seb146 wrote:
How is WWII taught in Europe?


Federal system here, there is no such thing as a standard across Europe, and in the federally organized countries, even within them. For my state in Germany when i went to school it was extensive to the point of "oh, not again".
 
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N14AZ
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:43 am

I saw the trailer for this report some weeks ago and I didn’t had a good feeling about this from the start. If you, as a serious news agency, want to do a sober analysis why do you have to support your trailer with dark horror film like music?

Furthermore:

salttee wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
Over 7,000 people in several European nations were polled in September, 2018. Here’s a few concerning standouts....

I don't see anything shocking in any of that.
55% of Germans believe anti-semtism is a growing problem, along with 44% in France.
This statistic merely reflects what the populace has been told by the media.

This, exactly this. There is a special term for this, something like suggestive question.

If I ask people on the street today with a grim look on my face „Do you think anti-semitism is a growing problem?“ a huge number of people will answer „yes“ automatically...

That being said, I believe we have to keep remembering what happened in Europe last century. Right now the memory for the war and the holocaust is still there. I think it’s one fundamental reason why we often do not agree with the politics of our partners (e.g. Iraq war #2).
 
salttee
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:32 am

N14AZ wrote:
That being said, I believe we have to keep remembering what happened in Europe last century.

During WWII, the total deaths are estimated to have been from 70 million to 85 million.
Deaths directly caused by the war are estimated at 50-56 million persons.
During that period between 4.5 and 6 million Jews died.

If that number was 6 million, that means that up to 79 million WWII deaths are regularly being swept under the rug by those who spend their time reminding us of the history of WWII.

And it's not an accident:
https://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U-S ... ign+Policy
 
tommy1808
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:40 am

salttee wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
That being said, I believe we have to keep remembering what happened in Europe last century.

During WWII, the total deaths are estimated to have been from 70 million to 85 million.
Deaths directly caused by the war are estimated at 50-56 million persons.
During that period between 4.5 and 6 million Jews died.

If that number was 6 million, that means that up to 79 million WWII deaths are regularly being swept under the rug by those who spend their time reminding us of the history of WWII.


ah, so you are among those knowing little or nothing about the Holocaust.....

Those 6 Million Jews where a) non-combatants and b) where slaughtered in a highly organized and almost industrial effort that c) exceeded the war effort in priority. War supplies where put on hold to haul Jews to the camps.

The only WWII death swapped unter the rug are the 4 to 8 million other people that died in those camps, but those where mostly communists, gays or Soviet POWs, so no one wanted to make a fuzz about those.

best regards
Thomas
 
FatCat
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:35 am

those numbers are too small.
if you take a walk in any eu city, you can feel the intolerance.
at the pub, at the restaurant, in the streets.
old people, young people, and everything's in between. men and women.
no one wants a men (or woman) of color near. or a gypsy. or an islamic.
it's the world we built.

on a side note, 70 years ago yesterday the declaration of human rights was signed.
it was funny hearing it being read by mrs. roosevelt, an american citizen, "all men are created equal", when in her home country the racial segregation was still a thing. and still will for other 16 years, until lbj came to the office. and maybe still is? i'm not a us citizen, i don't live there, so i can't judge.
 
salttee
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:12 am

tommy1808 wrote:
ah, so you are among those knowing little or nothing about the Holocaust.....

LOL
Thomas you have just removed yourself from any discussion of this subject with me.
And I owe you no explanation.
 
tommy1808
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:18 am

salttee wrote:
And I owe you no explanation.


i don´t really think there is an explanation that could counter the proof you left in this thread.

best regards
Thomas
 
salttee
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:23 am

FatCat wrote:
"all men are created equal", when in her home country the racial segregation was still a thing. and still will for other 16 years, until lbj came to the office. and maybe still is? i'm not a us citizen, i don't live there, so i can't judge.

The subject you're addressing is the human condition; it exists and has existed everywhere.

Outside of the current glitch we are experiencing, which I hope and assume is just a backwards swing of the pendulum, humanity is on the right track. Things are getting better.
And that phrase "all men are created equal" that appeared in the US declaration of independence has had great influence towards bringing the world towards justice.
 
Redd
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:39 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
salttee wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
That being said, I believe we have to keep remembering what happened in Europe last century.

During WWII, the total deaths are estimated to have been from 70 million to 85 million.
Deaths directly caused by the war are estimated at 50-56 million persons.
During that period between 4.5 and 6 million Jews died.

If that number was 6 million, that means that up to 79 million WWII deaths are regularly being swept under the rug by those who spend their time reminding us of the history of WWII.


ah, so you are among those knowing little or nothing about the Holocaust.....

Those 6 Million Jews where a) non-combatants and b) where slaughtered in a highly organized and almost industrial effort that c) exceeded the war effort in priority. War supplies where put on hold to haul Jews to the camps.

The only WWII death swapped unter the rug are the 4 to 8 million other people that died in those camps, but those where mostly communists, gays or Soviet POWs, so no one wanted to make a fuzz about those.

best regards
Thomas


I have to agree with Saltee. Thomas, you probably have little to no idea about what it's like to come from a country like Poland, Russia or China, places where relatives (including my grandmother and grandfather) still have living memory of atrocities committed in front of their own eyes.. Poland suffered the greatest loss in % of population during WWII, about 20% or 6 Million people, 6 million civilians were victims of war crimes at the hands of the Soviets or Nazis. Most Polish intelligentsia were slaughtered and the entire officer core were shot in the back of the head and buried by the Soviets in Katyn. The Poles fought with the allies through out the war against the Nazis and Communists, the highest scoring squadron the RAF had was Polish. After all of that Poland wasn't allowed to even march in the Victory day Parade because Churchill didn't want to offend Stalin, then 44 years of communism, and people in the west calling Nazi concentration camps 'Polish Death Camp's' to add insult to injury.

China and the USSR suffered over 40 million deaths combined out of which more than half were civilians.

The Holocaust is a terrible chapter in our history, but it's only a part of the dark chapter that was WWII. And, if you are not a racist or ignorant you'd be open to honoring all of the dead and people whom suffered and not just the Jews. It's a sick and twisted thing that when we speak about the dead in WWII that western history only speaks about the Holocaust.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:28 pm

As for the Jewish people they have suffered persecution for thousands of years starting from their time in Egypt to today.
 
tommy1808
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:52 pm

Redd wrote:
China and the USSR suffered over 40 million deaths combined out of which more than half were civilians.

The Holocaust is a terrible chapter in our history, but it's only a part of the dark chapter that was WWII.


Yeah, there are many sad chapters in WWII. Nonetheless just one chapter was new. Mass killings of civilians? Reprisals against the civil population? Eliminations of Elites? Depriving locals of support (medical, food, resources)? Destroying potential basis of resistance? All part of war's standard toolkit since the beginning of organized violence.
Massmurdering people on an industrial scale in those camps for one qualifier only, with no luck or decisions involved, was new. And that does make a difference. And mostly concerned Jews. Of course if you happened to be gay, or Muslim ,circumcised, so they could be Jews claiming to be Muslim, or a civilian/political leader/elite that one thing doomed you just as much, but Jews where by far the largest of those groups.
So I will always correct anyone talking about those 6 million dying in those camps to the real number. But claiming a focus one those would somehow put the other 70+ million under the rug shows a profound lack of understanding what was and wasn't new about world war II. It doesn't diminish all the others that perished in that war to remember them as a separate group of victims.
It wasn't 20% of all Poles getting murdered, or those civilians in reprisals, "cleaning operations" or prolific weapons use in populated areas that changed what we accept during war, it where those camps, and the 10 - 14 million that died in them. They let the world decide that war should be illegal, that genocide was a crime, that "I was just following orders" doesn't cut it in court, that there are limits on the sovereignty of nations, that they can not just make any laws they like and that violating human rights is a sufficient basis for criminal trials.

And, if you are not a racist or ignorant you'd be open to honoring all of the dead and people whom suffered and not just the Jews. It's a sick and twisted thing that when we speak about the dead in WWII that western history only speaks about the Holocaust.


I see no problem with honouring all that died or suffered in that war, or after it because of it, and also remembering the simple fact that those who died in the camps have a different historical relevance. I don't think that gives their suffering and death any more "value" over that of the rest of them.

I do however see a problem when people imply, like he did, that "Jews use the Holocaust to advance position" is true. You may make that argument over the state of Israel, but making it over "Jews" paints you in a rather unflattering colour. Using holocaust museums as an argument for that is tasteless on top of it.
You can see in countless postings on this board that I don't cut Israel any slack whatsoever because of the holocaust. You know why that is? Because I do think that all victims of warfare are equally too many. That is what honoring is, isn't it? Trying to prevent more of the same?

Best regards
Thomas
 
tommy1808
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:53 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
As for the Jewish people they have suffered persecution for thousands of years starting from their time in Egypt to today.


You do know that "their time in Egypt" never happend, right?

Best regards
Thomas
 
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N14AZ
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:26 pm

salttee wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
That being said, I believe we have to keep remembering what happened in Europe last century.

During WWII, the total deaths are estimated to have been from 70 million to 85 million.
Deaths directly caused by the war are estimated at 50-56 million persons.
During that period between 4.5 and 6 million Jews died.

If that number was 6 million, that means that up to 79 million WWII deaths are regularly being swept under the rug by those who spend their time reminding us of the history of WWII.

And it's not an accident:
https://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U-S ... ign+Policy

I somehow think my statement was misunderstood. And I have to admit that my statement was not clear enough. When I said „we have to keep remembering what happened in Europe last century“ I meant both

I) the WW2 and
II) the Holocaust
 
salttee
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:46 pm

N14AZ wrote:
I somehow think my statement was misunderstood. And I have to admit that my statement was not clear enough. When I said „we have to keep remembering what happened in Europe last century“ I meant both

I) the WW2 and
II) the Holocaust

Have we entered into a new era with a newly politicized history of WWII? I have never before encountered anyone separating WWII from the processes of extermination that took place in that era. In fact most of the uninformed views along this line that I've previously encountered have postulated the premise that WWII was over Jews and the whole lebensraum, invasion of Poland impetus, was lost by the wayside. I have usually had to remind others that the holocaust was not a major focus of WWII and during the war relatively few people inside or outside of Germany were aware of its existence. It is a fact that many of the deaths in the camps took place simply because there was no place to put the incoming prisoners and no food to feed them or guards to guard them. The exigencies of war were a major factor driving the number of deaths. I also feel a need to remind the people here that the total figures for WWII deaths include those which occurred in Asia; particularly the Japanese actions in China should not be swept under the rug.
 
Redd
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:08 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Redd wrote:
China and the USSR suffered over 40 million deaths combined out of which more than half were civilians.

The Holocaust is a terrible chapter in our history, but it's only a part of the dark chapter that was WWII.



Massmurdering people on an industrial scale in those camps for one qualifier only, with no luck or decisions involved, was new. And that does make a difference. And mostly concerned Jews. Of course if you happened to be gay, or Muslim ,circumcised, so they could be Jews claiming to be Muslim, or a civilian/political leader/elite that one thing doomed you just as much, but Jews where by far the largest of those groups.


The fact if it makes a different or doesn't is subjective and has relevance only in the way of information presentation. The Holocaust has the (rightful) relevance it has because it is taught in schools, in institutions, appears in films etc (and rightfully so)... A simple litmus test would be for you to ask a few (I assume you're Dutch?) citizens in Holland about the number of deaths of Poles in WWII. The majority of people in Western Europe have no clue people died in massive numbers beyond the Holocaust. And that is wrong.

The fact that 6 Million Poles, over 40 million Chinese and Russians were slaughtered needs to be remembered and taught as well as the Holocaust. Teaching about both in no way diminishes the other in relevance. But shameful is that fact that the average western European, American or Canadian doesn't know about any Polish deaths, Russian deaths or Chinese. That is sweeping unter the rug.


I do however see a problem when people imply, like he did, that "Jews use the Holocaust to advance position" is true.


I'd be disappointing if they didn't. 6 million of them were exterminated so you'd better damn well hope they would try to get some ''advantages'' out of it. Israel for one, it probably wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the Holocaust and the displacement of millions of Jews. I don't see anything wrong with that.
 
tommy1808
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:39 am

Redd wrote:
The fact if it makes a different or doesn't is subjective and has relevance only in the way of information presentation.


Initial rub was the other being under the rug, which is clearly not factual.

A simple litmus test would be for you to ask a few (I assume you're Dutch?)


German

citizens in Holland about the number of deaths of Poles in WWII.


the number of Poles specifically the are unlikely to know, or the number of Chinese that died in the war. And that is normal. Not normal as in "ok" or "good", but normal in the sense of the normal operation of our brains. Apparently polish dead are so close to you as the tragedy they where, that you apparently don´t know the Belarus suffered heavier losses than Poland, about 25% of the population. That is normal.

The majority of people in Western Europe have no clue people died in massive numbers beyond the Holocaust. And that is wrong.


Well, i must know very different people in western Europe then.... under- or overestimating the number... yeah, sure ... but not knowing there where massive casualty numbers beyond the holocaust. Nope, never met a person like that.

The fact that 6 Million Poles, over 40 million Chinese and Russians were slaughtered needs to be remembered and taught as well as the Holocaust.


Where i went to school it was, in great detail.

I do however see a problem when people imply, like he did, that "Jews use the Holocaust to advance position" is true.


I'd be disappointing if they didn't. 6 million of them were exterminated so you'd better damn well hope they would try to get some ''advantages'' out of it. Israel for one, it probably wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the Holocaust and the displacement of millions of Jews. I don't see anything wrong with that.


There is no such thing as "the Jews". That is whats wrong with it. It stands for exactly the mindset that enabled the holocaust.

best regards
Thomas
 
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c933103
Posts: 5821
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:41 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
16% believe Jews account for 20% of worlds population, when in reality, Jews make up less than 1%.

This is what I truly don't get--there are so few Jews and yet they're always portrayed as some sort of bogeyman (like Republicans insinuating they're letting in violent immigrants). Why? It's like blaming the population of Pennsylvania for all that is wrong in the world.

Those people think they are the "1%" compares to the "99%" for rest of the world. That's like in some TV series there is a single big bad that if you kill it then everything will become peaceful. Unfortunately they don't realize real world doesn't work like TV
 
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c933103
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:13 am

Redd wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Redd wrote:
China and the USSR suffered over 40 million deaths combined out of which more than half were civilians.

The Holocaust is a terrible chapter in our history, but it's only a part of the dark chapter that was WWII.



Massmurdering people on an industrial scale in those camps for one qualifier only, with no luck or decisions involved, was new. And that does make a difference. And mostly concerned Jews. Of course if you happened to be gay, or Muslim ,circumcised, so they could be Jews claiming to be Muslim, or a civilian/political leader/elite that one thing doomed you just as much, but Jews where by far the largest of those groups.


The fact if it makes a different or doesn't is subjective and has relevance only in the way of information presentation. The Holocaust has the (rightful) relevance it has because it is taught in schools, in institutions, appears in films etc (and rightfully so)... A simple litmus test would be for you to ask a few (I assume you're Dutch?) citizens in Holland about the number of deaths of Poles in WWII. The majority of people in Western Europe have no clue people died in massive numbers beyond the Holocaust. And that is wrong.

The fact that 6 Million Poles, over 40 million Chinese and Russians were slaughtered needs to be remembered and taught as well as the Holocaust. Teaching about both in no way diminishes the other in relevance. But shameful is that fact that the average western European, American or Canadian doesn't know about any Polish deaths, Russian deaths or Chinese. That is sweeping unter the rug.


I do however see a problem when people imply, like he did, that "Jews use the Holocaust to advance position" is true.


I'd be disappointing if they didn't. 6 million of them were exterminated so you'd better damn well hope they would try to get some ''advantages'' out of it. Israel for one, it probably wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the Holocaust and the displacement of millions of Jews. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Yes, we should also remember it was the Chinese government who killed millions of Chinese in the World War II by intentionally flooding an area as large as a state without warning nor notifying the millions population living there in order to slow down Japanese military advancement, not to mention the number of people starved to death due to reduced crop output from that area which was a major food production zone, and then not to mention the entire Nationalist-vs-Communist theme surrounding the Chinese theater during WWII that was still ongoing during the time of Japanese invasion and was also the cause of the degree of success of Japanese actions and also cause of the current number of total fatality count in the country, yet no one is gonna say anything special about it other than for their own political, diplomatic and economical gains, as, after all, wars are just wars, not mass murder.
 
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EstherLouise
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:58 am

I've wondered this for years. Fact: The vast majority of American men born during and since WWII are circumcised. As a result, it would be fair to assume that many American anti-Semites were circumcised for hygienic reasons at birth. So.... how do they psychologically get past that 'bit of Jewish tradition" contained in and on their own bodies? Or do they silently loathe their parents forever and end up hating themselves for life? I'm not sorry if they're a little deranged for that reason, but simply find it amazingly ironic.
 
WIederling
Posts: 10041
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:38 pm

c933103 wrote:
Yes, we should also remember it was the Chinese government who killed millions of Chinese in the World War II by intentionally flooding an area as large as a state.


Estimates after WWII saw 800,000 killed.
Today this is seen as much too high a number. More like 400k?

How many would the Japanese Imperial Forces have killed anyway? :-)
 
johns624
Posts: 4368
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:14 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Those 6 Million Jews where a) non-combatants and b) where slaughtered in a highly organized and almost industrial effort that c) exceeded the war effort in priority. War supplies where put on hold to haul Jews to the camps.

The only WWII death swapped unter the rug are the 4 to 8 million other people that died in those camps, but those where mostly communists, gays or Soviet POWs, so no one wanted to make a fuzz about those.

best regards
Thomas
You forgot all the millions of Slavic civilians who were slaughtered.
 
johns624
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:20 pm

EstherLouise wrote:
I've wondered this for years. Fact: The vast majority of American men born during and since WWII are circumcised. As a result, it would be fair to assume that many American anti-Semites were circumcised for hygienic reasons at birth. So.... how do they psychologically get past that 'bit of Jewish tradition" contained in and on their own bodies? Or do they silently loathe their parents forever and end up hating themselves for life? I'm not sorry if they're a little deranged for that reason, but simply find it amazingly ironic.
I don't even think about it. It's considered an American thing, not a Jewish one.
 
TSS
Posts: 3736
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:44 am

EstherLouise wrote:
I've wondered this for years. Fact: The vast majority of American men born during and since WWII are circumcised. As a result, it would be fair to assume that many American anti-Semites were circumcised for hygienic reasons at birth.

First off, "hygienic reasons" was the sales pitch but likely wasn't the real reason because soap and water were neither expensive nor hard to come by prior to WWII, even in the most rural parts of Alabama.

What I suspect is the real reason for the big push to circumcise all American males after WWII was touched on upthread:
tommy1808 wrote:
Massmurdering people on an industrial scale in those camps for one qualifier only, with no luck or decisions involved, was new. And that does make a difference. And mostly concerned Jews. Of course if you happened to be gay, or Muslim (circumcised, so they could be Jews claiming to be Muslim), or a civilian/political leader/elite that one thing doomed you just as much, but Jews where by far the largest of those groups.

Leading up to and during WWII, the most conclusive way to tell if a guy was Gentile, Jewish or possibly Muslim in Germany was whether or not they were circumcised. If they were circumcised, off to the camps they went. But if all males were circumcised regardless of socio-religious affiliation, it would be impossible to tell who belongs to which group.

EstherLouise wrote:
So.... how do they psychologically get past that "bit of Jewish tradition" contained in and on their own bodies? Or do they silently loathe their parents forever and end up hating themselves for life? I'm not sorry if they're a little deranged for that reason, but simply find it amazingly ironic.

johns624 wrote:
I don't even think about it. It's considered an American thing, not a Jewish one.

Johns624 pretty much summed it up. Most Americans think circumcision is "just what you do" to males and never question it's necessity, validity, or origin, especially when some doctors and hospitals push it pretty hard.
 
alfa164
Posts: 4001
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Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:18 am

CitizenJustin wrote:
Over 7,000 people in several European nations were polled in September, 2018. Here’s a few concerning standouts....
55% of Germans believe anti-semtism is a growing problem, along with 44% in France.
28% believe Jews have too much influence over finance and business.
34% between the ages of 18-34 know little about the Holocaust, or have never heard of it. WHAT!!!
50% in Poland or 32% in total believe Jews use the Holocaust to advance position, or achieve certain goals.
16% believe Jews account for 20% of worlds population, when in reality, Jews make up less than 1%.
These figures are shocking, and the 18-34 figure seems to indicate a growing number are forgetting about one of modern histories most defining, and tragic moments. Are kids no longer taught about the Holocaust in school? There’s bound to be some forgetfulness as time passes, but this is unacceptable.
https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/11 ... um=website


I am not sure why "55% of Germans believe anti-semitism is a growing problem, etc...." is so shocking; it would be more shocking if Germans, as well as other Europeans, didn't recognize the presence of bigotry.

It seems many European countries have, for decades, had an underlying element of extremists (witness the skin-head movement); I doubt there is any increase in anti-semitism during this era. Anti-semitism and a distaste for Israel are two different things, however; I believe the current Netanyahu government, with its far-right strategies and its dismissal of Palestinian rights, has contributed massively to the feelings of more progressive Europeans, and may make it seem that Jews are being singled-out and vilified (just as the USA is falling into disfavor because of Trump and his policies).

These things do not happen in a vacuum, and with the increasing disdain for the government of Israel creating tension between European Jews and their non-Jewish counterparts - as well as tension between European Jews and their counterparts in Israel - polls written in general language may not reflect the nuanced attitudes of the respondents. There has always been a baseline of anti-semitism everywhere in the world; it is the growing disdain (in many cases, approaching on hatred) of the current Israeli government that may appear to magnify it - even (or especially) among otherwise open-minded, civilized, progressive peoples.
 
737307
Posts: 2945
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:37 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
Over 7,000 people in several European nations were polled in September, 2018. Here’s a few concerning standouts....

55% of Germans believe anti-semtism is a growing problem, along with 44% in France.
28% believe Jews have too much influence over finance and business.
34% between the ages of 18-34 know little about the Holocaust, or have never heard of it. WHAT!!!
50% in Poland or 32% in total believe Jews use the Holocaust to advance position, or achieve certain goals.
16% believe Jews account for 20% of worlds population, when in reality, Jews make up less than 1%.

These figures are shocking, and the 18-34 figure seems to indicate a growing number are forgetting about one of modern histories most defining, and tragic moments. Are kids no longer taught about the Holocaust in school? There’s bound to be some forgetfulness as time passes, but this is unacceptable.

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/11 ... um=website


Although the article seems to correlate the result of the poll with the age of the respondents, I suspect that cultural background has a much stronger influence on the outcome of the poll.
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 1096
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:37 pm

Part of the reason the numbers are supposedly on the rise, is because even perfectly legitimate criticism of Israel is now frequently, and very incorrectly, classed as anti-semitic.
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: CNN poll on anti-semtism in Europe is concerning

Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:22 am

That's what you get when you uncontrollably admit several million people who were socialized in societies in which a genocidal hatred of Jews is absolutely commonplace.
As a Jew in Germany, you cannot openly display your religious affiliation anymore in big cities without risking aggressive response by Arabs on the street, including risking a violent attack on yourself.

At least half the Jews I know in Europe (especially Germany and France) are actively considering leaving Europe. I have already left. The Germans, with their unfortunate history, have absolutely overdone it and, out of overzealous and false tolerance, completely screwed up and betrayed their moral obligation to provide for the security of the Jewish people.

Just shameful.

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